Loot, Schematics, and Randomized Non-Linear "Gating"

[OldManBrian]

My friends and I have played the hell out of this game for years now, and one of the things that keeps us coming back is how fun the unpredictable loot-based crafting is. You don't know how long you're gonna be stuck with basic weapons, unrepairable guns, lack of transportation, etc. It makes new playthroughs exhilarating and keeps the game from becoming stale. We generally get bored pretty quickly after we get all the "critical" items\schematics and start a new playthrough to bring that thrill back.

 

It looks like a17 is going to transition from unpredictable non-linear loot\schematic based "gating", to predictable linear perk\xp based "gating". (Gating meaning something that prevents the player from crafting\repairing certain items until they find or do something to unlock it.)

 

How is a17 going to keep looting fun and playthroughs unpredictable with this new system? We were really hoping the loot\schematic based gating was going to be expanded, but it seems to have been mostly eliminated instead.

[HIREDGUN]

It looks like a17 is going to transition from unpredictable non-linear loot\schematic based "gating", to predictable linear perk\xp based "gating".

 

I think it will be both.

 

Schematics are now an ingredient in crafting weapons which means you still have to acquire a schematic to build them and personally for game balance in MP worlds I'm hoping they do the same with vehicles.

 

The gaiting of when you can build a forge, workbench, mixer, and chem requires you to have at least the perk to do so... and that will be determined by having that "parent" attribute leveled up to open that "child" perk that needs to be bought.

[JCrook1028]

I think it will be both.

 

Schematics are now an ingredient in crafting weapons which means you still have to acquire a schematic to build them and personally for game balance in MP worlds I'm hoping they do the same with vehicles.

 

The gaiting of when you can build a forge, workbench, mixer, and chem requires you to have at least the perk to do so... and that will be determined by having that "parent" attribute leveled up to open that "child" perk that needs to be bought.

 

And in the case of the forge that's actually rather painful. It's 6 skillpoints in...... That feels a bit too deep imo but we'll see.

[Numberz]

My friends and I have played the hell out of this game for years now, and one of the things that keeps us coming back is how fun the unpredictable loot-based crafting is. You don't know how long you're gonna be stuck with basic weapons, unrepairable guns, lack of transportation, etc. It makes new playthroughs exhilarating and keeps the game from becoming stale. We generally get bored pretty quickly after we get all the "critical" items\schematics and start a new playthrough to bring that thrill back.

 

It looks like a17 is going to transition from unpredictable non-linear loot\schematic based "gating", to predictable linear perk\xp based "gating". (Gating meaning something that prevents the player from crafting\repairing certain items until they find or do something to unlock it.)

 

How is a17 going to keep looting fun and playthroughs unpredictable with this new system? We were really hoping the loot\schematic based gating was going to be expanded, but it seems to have been mostly eliminated instead.

 

 

Precisely. This guy gets it.

[Roland]

And in the case of the forge that's actually rather painful. It's 6 skillpoints in...... That feels a bit too deep imo but we'll see.

 

Nope. It is exactly....1 point in. It is the first tier of the Hammer & Forge Perk Tree and so doesn't even require a single point of Intellect to be spent.

 

Even the workbench only requires 2 points spent on Intellect and then 2 points spent in the perk tree to reach it. That's 4 points in. Doable from just points earned doing the tutorial quest on Day 1 of the game.

 

No pain.

[Blake_]

Nope. It is exactly....1 point in. It is the first tier of the Hammer & Forge Perk Tree and so doesn't even require a single point of Intellect to be spent.

 

Even the workbench only requires 2 points spent on Intellect and then 2 points spent in the perk tree to reach it. That's 4 points in. Doable from just points earned doing the tutorial quest on Day 1 of the game.

 

No pain.

 

Oh! that's interesting. Can you confirm then that we start with 1 point in each attribute so we only need to spend 9 in each of them? Videos don't make it very clear because level 1 of every attribute is unlocked at the start.

[JaxTeller718]

Nope. It is exactly....1 point in. It is the first tier of the Hammer & Forge Perk Tree and so doesn't even require a single point of Intellect to be spent.

 

Even the workbench only requires 2 points spent on Intellect and then 2 points spent in the perk tree to reach it. That's 4 points in. Doable from just points earned doing the tutorial quest on Day 1 of the game.

 

No pain.

 

Are they intentionally trying to shorten the life of the game?

[JCrook1028]

Nope. It is exactly....1 point in. It is the first tier of the Hammer & Forge Perk Tree and so doesn't even require a single point of Intellect to be spent.

 

Even the workbench only requires 2 points spent on Intellect and then 2 points spent in the perk tree to reach it. That's 4 points in. Doable from just points earned doing the tutorial quest on Day 1 of the game.

 

No pain.

 

Oh! I thought being the 5th skill down it took 5 levels of the mother tree to get to it. Good news then, I was really not looking forward to not having a forge til level 6.

[Roland]

Are they intentionally trying to shorten the life of the game?

 

Balancing is ongoing.

[DaVegaNL]

Nope. It is exactly....1 point in. It is the first tier of the Hammer & Forge Perk Tree and so doesn't even require a single point of Intellect to be spent.

 

Even the workbench only requires 2 points spent on Intellect and then 2 points spent in the perk tree to reach it. That's 4 points in. Doable from just points earned doing the tutorial quest on Day 1 of the game.

 

No pain.

 

Frankly.. That's ridiculous. A game already lacking meaningful late-game content should not be shortened from the front-end any further I think.

[Hellevik]

i think the perk system is taking the fun away from the game. press a butten to harvest more? no! i love to grind poop to get fertilizer. i love the books! had most fun when i had 14 days in 60m-hour to get the forge book! good times. i have never liked that loot guarded by a perk. the times where we found a good fireaxe on day1 is over. now we are swinning in purple stuff on endgame.

 

now i am just mining tunnel between the map and using perk's to get better. not ideal for gameplay.

I am happy that the Loot delivery systerm is going away. staying in base en getting all i need from the zed's is not a good thing.

[Katitof]

How is a17 going to keep looting fun and playthroughs unpredictable with this new system? We were really hoping the loot\schematic based gating was going to be expanded, but it seems to have been mostly eliminated instead.

 

Rare loot-able parts would be sufficient to me.

Think of engine to make a bike instead of crafting literally everything.

 

So you can learn craft skill through perks, but still need that rare/legendary drop to actually craft it.

That would be sufficient for me at least.

[OldManBrian]

Rare loot-able parts would be sufficient to me.

Think of engine to make a bike instead of crafting literally everything.

 

So you can learn craft skill through perks, but still need that rare/legendary drop to actually craft it.

That would be sufficient for me at least.

 

I agree, though it doesn't seem to fix the whole problem.

 

Take gun repair for instance, requiring a rare item to fix a gun is totally different than requiring a rare item to have the ability to fix a gun. Gun repair happens pretty frequently and it would be grindy to need to stockpile rare items for that purpose. Whereas requiring an item to have the ability to repair guns would be a rare, but one time, thing.

 

Requiring rare items is best for rare events otherwise it becomes a grind.

 

 

I'd say require rare items\parts for things you would normally build few of: crafting stations, vehicles, turrets, generators, etc.

 

Then require books for the ability to do do something you'd do a lot of: repair a type of weapon, build medical supplies, concrete, do farming, different paint types, etc.

[meganoth]

I agree, though it doesn't seem to fix the whole problem.

 

Take gun repair for instance, requiring a rare item to fix a gun is totally different than requiring a rare item to have the ability to fix a gun. Gun repair happens pretty frequently and it would be grindy to need to stockpile rare items for that purpose. Whereas requiring an item to have the ability to repair guns would be a rare, but one time, thing.

 

Requiring rare items is best for rare events otherwise it becomes a grind.

 

 

I'd say require rare items\parts for things you would normally build few of: crafting stations, vehicles, turrets, generators, etc.

 

Then require books for the ability to do do something you'd do a lot of: repair a type of weapon, build medical supplies, concrete, do farming, different paint types, etc.

 

What's with the third option: Require medium available items/parts to fix a gun?

 

I would make them expensive at the trader and craftable with lots of ingredients.

 

Remember, this is a game where you have a massive influx of materials and stuff by looting/mining/buying/crafting. Designers of game economies know that if you have a steady resource well you also need a steady resource sink.

It doesn't matter if such a repair pack is expensive. With normal game play you have chests full of materials, heaps of leather, mechanical parts, tape.... There is no grind to get them, you just need a good use for them.

[RestInPieces]

Designers of game economies know that if you have a steady resource well you also need a steady resource sink.

 

Indeed, but if food etc and the lack of many resource sinks until now are of any indication...

[meganoth]

Indeed, but if food etc and the lack of many resource sinks until now are of any indication...

 

Chest overflowing with stuff in 7D2D are a good indication of the problem. But endgame balancing never happened and judging by the changes in A17 it may have been premature in previous alphas.

 

I'm fairly certain that either a) TFP looks at the problem in beta or b) there will be mods doing that. In my todo list for 7D2D there is a mod with weapons as consumables in case the situation doesn't change.

[Benjiro]

Remember, this is a game where you have a massive influx of materials and stuff by looting/mining/buying/crafting. Designers of game economies know that if you have a steady resource well you also need a steady resource sink.

It doesn't matter if such a repair pack is expensive. With normal game play you have chests full of materials, heaps of leather, mechanical parts, tape.... There is no grind to get them, you just need a good use for them.

 

Maybe TFPs needs to take a look at the X series of games.

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2810/X3_Reunion/

 

This issue of overflowing materials is solved with content... Mid to late game content where the players can dump those resources into. Bigger ships, massive fleets, owning sectors, etc...

 

As long as TFP keeps playing around with rewrites and never bother adding actual content, this issue never gets solved. I expected A17 to have a huge update to electricity in regards to more stuff that works with electricity. This is a very logical conclusion as Electricity was very new with a lot of potential. Making you spend more resources into gas, engines, getting parts, etc. And this seems to be a fat no again.

[meganoth]

Maybe TFPs needs to take a look at the X series of games.

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2810/X3_Reunion/

 

This issue of overflowing materials is solved with content... Mid to late game content where the players can dump those resources into. Bigger ships, massive fleets, owning sectors, etc...

 

As long as TFP keeps playing around with rewrites and never bother adding actual content, this issue never gets solved. I expected A17 to have a huge update to electricity in regards to more stuff that works with electricity. This is a very logical conclusion as Electricity was very new with a lot of potential. Making you spend more resources into gas, engines, getting parts, etc. And this seems to be a fat no again.

 

Yes and no. Bigger and more expensive stuff has to have an interesting function the player thinks worth enough to get all the materials for. The 4x4 and gyrocopter are positive examples but 7D2D needed the physics overhaul and apart from variations I don't see much demand for more vehicles.

 

They could have invested a few months into optimizing electricity so that it really works in A17 (similar to how they overhauled physics for the vehicles) but that wouldn't have directly brought new stuff. And what should that new stuff be? We already have electricity traps and guns operated by electricity, what more? A refrigerator? Meeeh.

Still, electricity optimization will be neccessary eventually and I think electrically operated doors will be one result. Good stuff, but hardly able to work as a serious resource sink

 

What else? What stuff would you sink huge resources into to get it and would fit into a survival game?

[Damocles]

Just offering more assets and devices is not really the solution. Its then either a grind to craft the things, or completely overpowered, making the game a cakewalk.

 

The best long term end-game content is something where you have smart opponents. Someone to plan and work against.

 

The bandits and survivors come to mind here, as mindless zombies dont work as any planning opponents.

 

Here the game could offer longer term territorial wars, taking down fortresses and outposts.

Building a home for survivors, feed and protect them.

 

Even things like siding with one bandit group, and helping them fight against another group, and offering supplies.

Kind of a long term territorial conflict with changing "borders" of influence.

 

Searching for components and assessing some device to fend of the "Big" horde, approaching after some weeks.

 

Making the players base "tainted" after a while (zombies attack endlessly) to give a reason to relocate...

 

Any game will have depleted new content, it cant offer endless new stuff. New items are all collected at one point, not offering more excitement then. So end game mechanics should offer some activity that (while it repeats), keeps interesting doing that over and over again.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

I hear all this talk about "end game content" but what exactly is the end game? This is a weird game for me, as back in like a13 i was playing it and really into it for 2 weeks, then said "what's the point" and quit right in the middle of fortifying a super base. That has never happened to me before in a game.

 

What is the point for surviving? Will the quest system give us stuff to do? can we have thralls?

 

the game has no end game content. Subnautica has end game content, a goal: get cured, leave hellish water planet. Emperyeon sorta has a goal, you pick it when you start a game and go from there.

 

What the hell are we doing in 7 days? Is it just surviving? At the moment it is a sorta sand box with neato exploration elements. The problem is that the only way to make the 7 day hordes more challenging is to make them bullet sponges, which is not fun. Maybe with the improved path finding they can bring back the old style gore blocks that the zombies made when they died and could climb over.

 

But as it stands, the game does not have end game content, and it shows on youtube. You have tons of series by youtubers who quit after a certain point and start new worlds/new mods. the most entertainment this game provides is maybe 20 episodes before the youtuber gets bored.

[meganoth]

I hear all this talk about "end game content" but what exactly is the end game? This is a weird game for me, as back in like a13 i was playing it and really into it for 2 weeks, then said "what's the point" and quit right in the middle of fortifying a super base. That has never happened to me before in a game.

 

What is the point for surviving? Will the quest system give us stuff to do? can we have thralls?

 

the game has no end game content. Subnautica has end game content, a goal: get cured, leave hellish water planet. Emperyeon sorta has a goal, you pick it when you start a game and go from there.

 

What the hell are we doing in 7 days? Is it just surviving? At the moment it is a sorta sand box with neato exploration elements. The problem is that the only way to make the 7 day hordes more challenging is to make them bullet sponges, which is not fun. Maybe with the improved path finding they can bring back the old style gore blocks that the zombies made when they died and could climb over.

 

But as it stands, the game does not have end game content, and it shows on youtube. You have tons of series by youtubers who quit after a certain point and start new worlds/new mods. the most entertainment this game provides is maybe 20 episodes before the youtuber gets bored.

 

Sandbox is in the games description, it isn't really a surprise. I don't think randomgen will ever have a specific goal. Navezgane might get one, probably in the form of a linked quest series that ends in either the Duke or the White River group eradicated.

 

Similar to what Damocles said but I would doubt the "smart opponents". If you really want smart, you need to PvP, but that has it own can of worms. Making a good macro KI that has an answer to anything you can think of is a monumental task, especially in a system were you can "build" obstacles the KI never thought of.

[RestInPieces]

The best long term end-game content is something where you have smart opponents. Someone to plan and work against.

 

Normal zombie combat can and should be greatly improved for starters. Not talking about smarter zombies, but about smarter ways to make normal zombies less predictable, like random combat behavior. Specials could also be improved in a number of theme-friendly ways, so that they game reminds more of a zombie apocalypse.

 

Any game will have depleted new content, it cant offer endless new stuff. New items are all collected at one point, not offering more excitement then. So end game mechanics should offer some activity that (while it repeats), keeps interesting doing that over and over again.

 

True. More content costs time and will always be needed. If the current content isn't exploited fully, with a milder progression curve, there's no point in adding more. It will still be a short-lived grindfest.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Are they intentionally trying to shorten the life of the game?

 

Shortening? If you don´t spawn super unlucky you get the forge on day one right now. Can´t get any shorter than that....

[Khulkhuum]

Shortening? If you don´t spawn super unlucky you get the forge on day one right now. Can´t get any shorter than that....

 

I agree. Now you simply need short iron pipes (the only item you have to have luck on), leather (obtained from couches in POIs) and clay (easily diggable). Anything else is even more common.