New perks part 2

[kidmo31]

Ok now that I have seen more of these perks. Some are cool but now some are replacing gameplay. There is nothing "fun" about magic buttons that make you harvest more. Granted the grind to wait hours while fertilizer crafted was a pain but it was dynamic and most of all realistic. Not POOF I can produce more crops cause I pressed this button more than you. Also what is going to happen to Blueprints it looks like we magically will be gaining the knowledge to make things like guns and minibikes.... Hell even the 4x4. What will be the point of looting beyond the initial need food till I can kill animals. While perks are cool they may not be fun if they are at the expense of gameplay. What scares me the most is the person throwing all of these in does not even play the game regularly. Well as with A16 maybe the modders will give this game back its soul.

[DarlingCows]

Why don’t you wait till you start playing A17 before complaining. All your arguments are based on A16. A17 has a revamped framework.

[canadianbluebeer]

We aren't going to have enough points to get everything, so it will be a lot of agonizing over what to take.

 

For groups though, this is really good. One person can max something like the farmer perk, and they handle the food/meat gathering.

(hmm, where have I heard Hunter/Gatherer before... )

 

A tanky type to take heavy armor/no stun. Another for ranged/sniper stuff, builders etc.

 

So think of it as school. Major in AB, Minor in XYZ kind of thing.

 

Going to make some interesting mixes.

 

(I also expect they'll be tweaking/revisting the perks as the game plays out. That ALWAYS happens in any game)

[crazywildfire]

We aren't going to have enough points to get everything, so it will be a lot of agonizing over what to take.

 

For groups though, this is really good. One person can max something like the farmer perk, and they handle the food/meat gathering.

(hmm, where have I heard Hunter/Gatherer before... )

 

A tanky type to take heavy armor/no stun. Another for ranged/sniper stuff, builders etc.

 

So think of it as school. Major in AB, Minor in XYZ kind of thing.

 

Going to make some interesting mixes.

 

(I also expect they'll be tweaking/revisting the perks as the game plays out. That ALWAYS happens in any game)

 

Yeah, also agree above as well.

 

You still got to loot to be able to make these things. Also sure it is a click and get more but how many times are you going to have to harvest to get that many points to do this? Sure you can go straight to it on the first points you get but do you really want to put the first points you get into harvesting that much or at all at first? Guess it could depend on what kind of player you are. But I would say the majority probably will not and will harvest crops a good amount of times before getting that perk. So you could look at it that you done it enough times so by the time you do the one click to harvest more you got better at it. Same with some of the other perks.

[warmer]

If you have ever had a garden, you know farming has a lot more to do with knowledge than it does fertilizer.

 

Knowledge grants a lot. Translating that over to gameplay effectively in a streamlined and fluid way that doesn't bog down "fun" is hard to do. I personally would rather read a book on how to deal with pests than spend a few days hauling manure. Maybe that's just me.

[Ttocs]

I personally would rather read a book on how to deal with pests than spend a few days hauling manure. Maybe that's just me.

 

Defo just you man, hauling manure is fun

[kidmo31]

Why don’t you wait till you start playing A17 before complaining. All your arguments are based on A16. A17 has a revamped framework.

 

My arguments are based on the A17 videos MM is spewing out everyday. The framework is describing the XML system behind the new perks. Which the whole game is going to be based off of going forward. I liked this game for the world not to spend more time in the menu system than I have to. Mark my words if there is no more BPs there is no point to risk looting in early game because everything else can be gained else where. Thank god I can stay in 16.4 if this turns out the way I think it will.

[kidmo31]

Almost 5 years in development it should be about adding more content not revamping from the ground up all the basic systems. Hence why most people are sharpening their pitchforks there is no roadmap and no direction. Its becoming a slap it on the wall and see if it sticks version of development.

[JaxTeller718]

Almost 5 years in development it should be about adding more content not revamping from the ground up all the basic systems. Hence why most people are sharpening their pitchforks there is no roadmap and no direction. Its becoming a slap it on the wall and see if it sticks version of development.

 

Its also beginning to feel like a game of "how much can we strip away or simplify everything". There's a laundry list of mechanics we have lost over the years due to the systems always being rewritten and new focuses on what the game actually is, although lately its been hammered home to me that the game I have loved for 2 plus years is not the game i was supposed to be loving I guess.

 

The complex, atmospheric, challenging style I once fell in love with is slowly but surely being stripped away in favor of an arcadey version of "whack a perk". It's getting harder and harder to watch the game become more beautiful while watching the actual complexity of the gameplay become more simplified.

[Druga Runda]

That's my feeling as well, but at least we had a good ride, and we will see how things go. Will not be the first time I disagree with dev direction, and while they may lose me, they will still gain a ton of new players who will love the "new" streamlined version.

 

I can think of Elite and Civilization series where the exact same happenend (edit: had to add Bethesda games as a classic example, Morrowind to Oblivion or Fallout NW to Fallout 4), and while I am not buying expanisions/new games in those series anymore, there are many others to make up the numbers, and are enjoying something which I do not enjoy any more.

 

In any case 7DTD is nowhere near those games/franchises yet, so even though the direction is off, it's not terminal.

[Vedui]

If you have ever had a garden, you know farming has a lot more to do with knowledge than it does fertilizer.

 

Knowledge grants a lot. Translating that over to gameplay effectively in a streamlined and fluid way that doesn't bog down "fun" is hard to do. I personally would rather read a book on how to deal with pests than spend a few days hauling manure. Maybe that's just me.

 

Sure. I had a garden when I was 10 I think? Super fertile ground, sprinkled lettuce and raddish seeds all over the place having no clue, and the whole summer it was giving ... well, let's just say we were throwing away a lot as it was literally overproducing enormously, despite eating it every single day.

 

So while knowledge might help when there are difficulties occuring, having very fertile dirt and normal circumstances, you might not need to have any knowledge.

 

Now if we're talking growing more difficult things then knowledge definitely would help. But some things really only needs fertile ground, sun and water, and it literally pops out of the ground

[RestInPieces]

The complex, atmospheric, challenging style I once fell in love with is slowly but surely being stripped away in favor of an arcadey version of "whack a perk".

 

Off-topic, but I think enemies have also become like that. As gamestages progress game keeps throwing at you more and more irradiated bullet-sponges and super zombies. If that's not arcade-y, I don't know what is.

[toores]

Its also beginning to feel like a game of "how much can we strip away or simplify everything". There's a laundry list of mechanics we have lost over the years due to the systems always being rewritten and new focuses on what the game actually is, although lately its been hammered home to me that the game I have loved for 2 plus years is not the game i was supposed to be loving I guess.

 

The complex, atmospheric, challenging style I once fell in love with is slowly but surely being stripped away in favor of an arcadey version of "whack a perk". It's getting harder and harder to watch the game become more beautiful while watching the actual complexity of the gameplay become more simplified.

 

I actually don't mind rewriting the of the systems or simplifying things. The new system has much greater potential but the intention seems to move from survival genre to wacky Fallout 4 with magic perks like Mysterious stranger. Why would I want to cure my desease myself if I can randomly shrug it off?....

 

As the OP said, I also strongly dislike if gameplay is replaced by perk xml. I think it hurts the immersion and I'm not sure it even delivers the expected outcome. The idea is to get people playing as they would and just assing points to reflect what kind of character they would like to be. Ok, let's say I want to play sneaky guy who won't wake up zombies and kills them in their sleep or avoids them completely.

What is the likelyhood of me spending my points on improve sneaking right from the start (when it makes the biggest difference) if I have character: without stamina, with small backpack, with only one crafting slot, does laughable damage, can't craft no wokrstations or iron stuff??....

 

On the other hand, when we would have skill system where you can't buy skills but advance them while using, you would become sneaky character by sneaking around zombies. You would start doing it from the very beginning.

 

I think it would be better system if the perks were tied directly to skills and advancing the skill would unlock them. Have one armor skill that increases by wearing armor and perks to choose wheather you get bonuses that make you agile, silent but more fragile or loud, slow but tanky. Then just collect gear that the bonus would apply to.

[Viktoriusiii]

My arguments are based on the A17 videos MM is spewing out everyday. The framework is describing the XML system behind the new perks. Which the whole game is going to be based off of going forward. I liked this game for the world not to spend more time in the menu system than I have to. Mark my words if there is no more BPs there is no point to risk looting in early game because everything else can be gained else where. Thank god I can stay in 16.4 if this turns out the way I think it will.

 

 

I just want to tune in and say:

I 100% share your opinion. The organic nature of progress is completly gone. And while I was wrong about the A12 (i think) reskin and weaponmolds beeing bad, every other opinion I still hold. While every alpha brought something new to the table, I also miss a lot of stuff of the earlier alphas.

But A17 looks to me to be more of a Fallout game, then a 7d2d game. "do stuff, spend points what you wanna have instead of getting better by doing it".

 

Dont get me wrong I got my moneys worth out of this game. And if you feel like this is the right direction for you, have fun.

But for me and a lot of others, 7d2d was a nieche game that did something no other survival game did.

Now its more or less Fallout with a destructable environment. Which is sad, because I dislike the fallout games.

You wanna know which game I have played nearly 2k hours in though? Skyrim. And now you can guess why. The one is an immersive experience, where HOW you do something matters as much as what you do, while the other one is a storydriven glorified shooter.

 

But enough ranting

I dislike the changes. Will probably stay with A 16 once I've tried A17. But even if I stay at 17, this alpha will probably be the least played.

Which is a shame really, when you think of how much they have improved.

 

*edit* for those of you who say:

"well if they have improved so much, why do you focus so much on that small bit you dislike?"

Because for me the progression was an integral part of the game. It got introduced 1-2 alphas after I started playing, but dumbed it down recently.

 

Basically think of a sandwhich, where only cheese is on it.

Now you get another sandwhich with cheese, tomatoes, onionrings and dressing... but the bread is made out of ♥♥♥♥.

 

"Why do you focus so much on this one part that you don't like" should now not be a response anymore.

[Magoli]

I just want to tune in and say:

I 100% share your opinion. The organic nature of progress is completly gone. And while I was wrong about the A12 (i think) reskin and weaponmolds beeing bad, every other opinion I still hold. While every alpha brought something new to the table, I also miss a lot of stuff of the earlier alphas.

But A17 looks to me to be more of a Fallout game, then a 7d2d game. "do stuff, spend points what you wanna have instead of getting better by doing it".

 

Dont get me wrong I got my moneys worth out of this game. And if you feel like this is the right direction for you, have fun.

But for me and a lot of others, 7d2d was a nieche game that did something no other survival game did.

Now its more or less Fallout with a destructable environment. Which is sad, because I dislike the fallout games.

You wanna know which game I have played nearly 2k hours in though? Skyrim. And now you can guess why. The one is an immersive experience, where HOW you do something matters as much as what you do, while the other one is a storydriven glorified shooter.

 

But enough ranting

I dislike the changes. Will probably stay with A 16 once I've tried A17. But even if I stay at 17, this alpha will probably be the least played.

Which is a shame really, when you think of how much they have improved.

 

*edit* for those of you who say:

"well if they have improved so much, why do you focus so much on that small bit you dislike?"

Because for me the progression was an integral part of the game. It got introduced 1-2 alphas after I started playing, but dumbed it down recently.

 

Basically think of a sandwhich, where only cheese is on it.

Now you get another sandwhich with cheese, tomatoes, onionrings and dressing... but the bread is made out of ♥♥♥♥.

 

"Why do you focus so much on this one part that you don't like" should now not be a response anymore.

 

i totally agree

[RestInPieces]

Now its more or less Fallout with a destructable environment. Which is sad, because I dislike the fallout games.

 

The Fallout games are my favorite games of all time. But for reasons, most of which, this game cannot possibly immitate. Not because it's not good enough, but because it's fundamentally different. And even if I loved everything in the Fallout progression system, I still don't believe they are the best fit for this game.

[Poojam]

i totally agree

 

Thirded.

 

They can't seem to grasp that we want more content, not simply a skill curve of the existing content.

 

If you wanted to be a mining expert in A11, you got a pickaxe and went and mined. Your friend focused on scavenging by going out scavenging for good parts. Your other friend liked to garden and built a little base and started growing food. You just did what you wanted to do.

 

We all understood that after about 100 game days you were left with the notion that you were successful, and didn't need to do those things anymore. You had enough mats, your base was secure, and you had a garden big enough to feed 50 players daily. Everyone then said "more, more, more!"

 

What they meant was....give me something else to do, create, travel, steal, sell, trade, conflict, bandits, etc.

 

What they did was "that sounds like a lot of work. let's make it so you're crap at mining/scavenging/fighting initially and you feel a sense of accomplishment by getting incrementally better by doing things".

 

Some people enjoy the ding, they just do. It is kind of addictive, they're not exactly wrong. But many of us were left going "wtf? I have to craft 5000 plant fiber pants/farm 500,000 sand/kill 10,000 zombies/insert next action to get xp/skills/perks etc. This in an effort just so I can get enough points to unlock mining so that it's not just a giant waste of time that takes 8 hits per stone block now?!?!" We were wanting to be 8 years old wandering into the basement of a house to find a cavern of experiences, and instead you implemented "let's just turn off the light and add 50,000 steps"

[FelixLightfoot]

I'm open to changes but it sounds like the game is going to be really hard to solo now? Boo.

 

Also, in the past I liked how my skills just went up naturally. Sure people could grind them if they wanted, but that was their choice. I just went around scavenging and crafting as neccesary, and my stats went up at a decent pace. Sure some skills lagged and probably needed to be rebalanced, but the core mechanic was fine.

 

The last build everything is about XP, so now I'm pushed to fight zombies everywhere. In the past zeds were just obstacles to be avoided at best. Sorry to say it Fun Pimps, but fighting zombies in this game is not all that fun. It's relatively easy to master regardless of weapons, except when fighting certain enemies you rarely see. So grinding XP by bonking zeds on the head is no more fun than crafting axes for me.

[meganoth]

I'm open to changes but it sounds like the game is going to be really hard to solo now? Boo.

 

Also, in the past I liked how my skills just went up naturally. Sure people could grind them if they wanted, but that was their choice. I just went around scavenging and crafting as neccesary, and my stats went up at a decent pace. Sure some skills lagged and probably needed to be rebalanced, but the core mechanic was fine.

 

Scavenging still gives XP in A17 (at least Roland said nothing fundamentaly changed with xp gain). Since you need stuff to craft you also get XP from mining. So what changed? Just do that stuff and you will level up.

[Benjiro]

Scavenging still gives XP in A17 (at least Roland said nothing fundamentaly changed with xp gain). Since you need stuff to craft you also get XP from mining. So what changed? Just do that stuff and you will level up.

 

It always find it funny when the Pimps complain about spam crafting but people will simply end up doing whatever spamming to get fast skill points anyway. If that means digging at night while spam crafting or whatever.

 

Its the exact same just with a different layer of grease. But what will hurt people is the stripping of feature, combined with the massive amount of skill points you need. Before if you wanted, you are able to get all skills with a lot of work. This is now impossible. ( 200 / 350 max ).

 

Now when you start as a character, you will again be spam crafting or spam digging or spam whatever just to get fast points, so your character is not a punch doll. We already see how Zombie hit more ( backstep removed, Swing while going down, swinging when down ). The heat damage bug is fixed but your still getting a reduced damage output.

 

 

TFP did not lie when they said "we want you do die a lot". Unfortunately its not the dying that is the issue in 7D2D.

 

Its the lack of content after your first week in-game. All these changes are done to make you "progress" less fast, as to hide the lack of content down the line.

 

None of content issue is fixed. Its even more stronger now because:

 

* Weapons come in one part

* Books are less useful ( useless? )... Vehicles are now all skills. Weapons are now skills.

* Mining is now also reduced to simply skill buying.

* Fertilizer is removed.

* Bones / rotten meat is as good as gone with bodies vanishing.

 

This follows the trend of simply reducing content and simplifying stuff. When people call the game Fallout, they are right. Fallout has gotten more and more simplified over the years. Consolised, generalized...

 

And i HATE the fact how they constantly point to mods to fix the gameplay issues. Hint: If people like mods that fix your issues, that means you are doing something wrong.

 

Then add insult to injury: It takes mods MONTHS after every Alpha release to get a stable version out. So we wait 15 months for A17. Then people can wait another few months to get a proper version of the game that is less console like? And then people have the same issue, when does A18 comes out and destroys all the mods again. You expect mods to have early access to the alphas so they can prepare their mods in advance!

 

This entire 15 month rewrite simply shows something important. They knew 7D2D had a coding issue and they lied to the people. I remember clearly after the long 8 months A16, how they planned for A17 the be a "short" time to Alpha release because TFP did not like this long development cycle. Many people stopped playing because hey, A17 is coming soon ( inc me ). And here we are today with a game after 15 months with almost no new content. Lots of graphics, yes. But the actual content has only gained a few items, matched by the removal of items.

 

I am frank when i say that i have no idea about the future for 7D2D. If A17 fails in returning a uptick in people playing ( and people buying ), ... That is why you never do 15 month releases. When you keep them short, people keep playing and it draws in new players. Even some hosts have stopped selling 7D2D MP servers because of lack of interest.

 

And this brings us back to lack of content. Slowing down the progression, does not fix the lack of content. And content is what people come back for. A graphical upgrade is something awwwww about for the first 10 minutes ( expect a lot of forum posts about how beautiful things look ) but the real response will come later, when people are used to to graphics and discover during their gameplay, that their is no new content!!!!

[meganoth]

It always find it funny when the Pimps complain about spam crafting but people will simply end up doing whatever spamming to get fast skill points anyway. If that means digging at night while spam crafting or whatever.

 

Its the exact same just with a different layer of grease. But what will hurt people is the stripping of feature, combined with the massive amount of skill points you need. Before if you wanted, you are able to get all skills with a lot of work. This is now impossible. ( 200 / 350 max ).

 

Now when you start as a character, you will again be spam crafting or spam digging or spam whatever just to get fast points, so your character is not a punch doll. We already see how Zombie hit more ( backstep removed, Swing while going down, swinging when down ). The heat damage bug is fixed but your still getting a reduced damage output.

 

Yes, the game will be somewhat different. Just take the difficulty setting that suits you and you will be doing fine without the need to artifically spam whatever. What do you want to do in this game? Do it. You will get XP just fine.

 

I will not spam-craft, spam-dig or anything, I will just play and have fun. Your call if you aren't able to do that.

 

TFP did not lie when they said "we want you do die a lot". Unfortunately its not the dying that is the issue in 7D2D.

 

Its the lack of content after your first week in-game. All these changes are done to make you "progress" less fast, as to hide the lack of content down the line.

 

Strangely others have critizised that the perk system now makes you progress too fast.

 

Anyway, the lack of late-game content is there, definitely. There is also word from the developers that now with the enhanced scripting in place they want to add many more and varied items into the game. I think they already started added new food recipes with lots of different temporary buffs, but we'll see how much makes it into A17

 

None of content issue is fixed. Its even more stronger now because:

 

* Weapons come in one part

* Books are less useful ( useless? )... Vehicles are now all skills. Weapons are now skills.

* Mining is now also reduced to simply skill buying.

* Fertilizer is removed.

* Bones / rotten meat is as good as gone with bodies vanishing.

 

Sorry, but weapons come in one part and up to 6 mods. The weapon without mods is supposed to be as good as a quality 1 weapon in A16, you need the mods.

 

Mining didn't change at all, if you want to mine efficiently you needed to buy miner69er. Same as now.

 

Yes to books and fertilizer.

 

This entire 15 month rewrite simply shows something important. They knew 7D2D had a coding issue and they lied to the people. I remember clearly after the long 8 months A16, how they planned for A17 the be a "short" time to Alpha release because TFP did not like this long development cycle. Many people stopped playing because hey, A17 is coming soon ( inc me ). And here we are today with a game after 15 months with almost no new content. Lots of graphics, yes. But the actual content has only gained a few items, matched by the removal of items.

 

It's good to know that rotten meat for you is on the same level as a gyrocopter. I also remember that they said that they wanted a shorter A17. Whether they lied or simply changed plans is up to the observer, I don't see any benefit for them to make this lie so assume it is the latter. And I'm happy that they changed the plan because the new buff framework changes a lot.

 

I even think it wasn't even a change of plan but MM probably announced the shorter A17 before Gazz told him that he needed lots of time for the framework changes.

 

And this brings us back to lack of content. Slowing down the progression, does not fix the lack of content. And content is what people come back for. A graphical upgrade is something awwwww about for the first 10 minutes ( expect a lot of forum posts about how beautiful things look ) but the real response will come later, when people are used to to graphics and discover during their gameplay, that their is no new content!!!!

 

Yes, we will have to see what happens. I think the hunt for weapon mods, new food and vehicles and a few legendary items (that I assume will trickle in while the experimental is getting debugged to stable) will keep a lot of people happy.

[Roland]

It always find it funny when the Pimps complain about spam crafting but people will simply end up doing whatever spamming to get fast skill points anyway. If that means digging at night while spam crafting or whatever.

 

Its the exact same just with a different layer of grease. But what will hurt people is the stripping of feature, combined with the massive amount of skill points you need. Before if you wanted, you are able to get all skills with a lot of work. This is now impossible. ( 200 / 350 max ).

 

Now when you start as a character, you will again be spam crafting or spam digging or spam whatever just to get fast points, so your character is not a punch doll. We already see how Zombie hit more ( backstep removed, Swing while going down, swinging when down ). The heat damage bug is fixed but your still getting a reduced damage output.

 

1) Spam crafting was different because it involved an automatic process. People could go AFK and earn experience. Or they stayed and stared at timers and items popping into their inventory. This was not considered "playing the game" by the developers. By comparison, killing zombies, mining, chopping, scavenging, harvesting, and building ARE considered playing the game and none of those activities can be done by an auto process while AFK. TFP is fine with people grinding for fast points if that is their choice. Nobody has to do that. But staring at timers and going AFK to play the game was not something they wanted to support.

 

2) Madmole has stated and it has been repeated that the level cap might be going away so that people can get everything if they are willing to do a lot of work. So this is something still being decided.

 

3) Backstep has not been removed. I backstep all the time and avoid getting hit all the time. Yes the zombies can swing during other motions now but as long as you are careful you can easily avoid getting hit. You are arguing from false premises.

 

 

TFP did not lie when they said "we want you do die a lot". Unfortunately its not the dying that is the issue in 7D2D.

 

Its the lack of content after your first week in-game. All these changes are done to make you "progress" less fast, as to hide the lack of content down the line.

 

None of content issue is fixed. Its even more stronger now because:

 

* Weapons come in one part

* Books are less useful ( useless? )... Vehicles are now all skills. Weapons are now skills.

* Mining is now also reduced to simply skill buying.

* Fertilizer is removed.

* Bones / rotten meat is as good as gone with bodies vanishing.

 

This follows the trend of simply reducing content and simplifying stuff. When people call the game Fallout, they are right. Fallout has gotten more and more simplified over the years. Consolised, generalized...

 

1) You are deliberately leaving out the attachments from your assessment about weapons. Weapons are not just one part. The base weapons are very basic and people are going to want to attach mods to them. There are dozens of mods that do a much wider range of buffs to the base weapons. Weapons as a whole are much better than they ever have been.

 

2) Books and schematics have a new role. It is still in flux. Vehicles are not all skills. Only unlocking the recipe is skill. You still have to find the components to make the vehicle parts and then assemble those parts to create the vehicle. Vehicle mods will be coming as well.

 

3) Mining is reduced to skill buying from what? There were always mining perks and now there are still mining perks. You can mine without spending a single perk point. Now you are just making stuff up. You still earn experience by mining and then you can use that experience to improve your ability to mine.

 

4) You haven't played it yet so it's understandable that you can't know how hard it is to decide between perks with the limited points you have. The way you are talking makes it seem like you think all points are available to spend however you wish but by spending points in one area you are denying yourself in other areas and those choices are very interesting. You may end up not liking it but I have found it very thought provoking and agonizing to decide what I want to focus on. It is NOT just thoughtless button push and now "vehicles!"

 

5) They are making the game lean so that they can then add content to a strong unified modular foundation. I know you are impatient. You have repeatedly stated that 5 years is way too long in your opinion but regardless...they aren't to the point in development you want them to be at. More content including bandits, survivors, and everything else in their list of goals is still forthcoming.

 

And i HATE the fact how they constantly point to mods to fix the gameplay issues. Hint: If people like mods that fix your issues, that means you are doing something wrong.

 

This is just wrong. Who's "they"? The developers? They have never once said to fix game problems with mods. They HAVE said that if something is not how you prefer then to go ahead and mod it. Big difference and one you seem not able to make. In your mind it is simply "I don't like it" = "broken". Problem is that the world is more diverse than you. Other people like vanilla just fine and there is nothing broken about design decisions that are made. You just don't like them so you have the option to mod them but you aren't fixing anything.

 

Then add insult to injury: It takes mods MONTHS after every Alpha release to get a stable version out. So we wait 15 months for A17. Then people can wait another few months to get a proper version of the game that is less console like? And then people have the same issue, when does A18 comes out and destroys all the mods again. You expect mods to have early access to the alphas so they can prepare their mods in advance!

 

We expect people whether they are modders or players to understand that this game is in development and that takes first priority. If you cannot stomach restarts, delays, experimentation, cuts, rewrites of mods...then you should wait until the game is done. That is really all this comes down to. You are suffering from development fatigue. It happens. Put the game away for a year and come back to it. Nobody will mind. The developers won't take it as a negative if you take a break. Modders volunteer to work on the game at this stage even though they know they will have to overhaul at the next update. Everyone is aware of this. TFP didn't hide the fact. Consenting adults.

 

This entire 15 month rewrite simply shows something important. They knew 7D2D had a coding issue and they lied to the people. I remember clearly after the long 8 months A16, how they planned for A17 the be a "short" time to Alpha release because TFP did not like this long development cycle. Many people stopped playing because hey, A17 is coming soon ( inc me ). And here we are today with a game after 15 months with almost no new content. Lots of graphics, yes. But the actual content has only gained a few items, matched by the removal of items.

 

They did not lie. They had every intention of going just six months but they went over. Why does it have to be a lie with you? That actually reveals more about you than it does about them. They feel bad that it happened but it did. Time will tell if they will be forgiven or not. I think most people who play A17 will forgive them. There is no doubt in my mind that most will see it as the best version of the game so far.

 

I am frank when i say that i have no idea about the future for 7D2D. If A17 fails in returning a uptick in people playing ( and people buying ), ... That is why you never do 15 month releases. When you keep them short, people keep playing and it draws in new players. Even some hosts have stopped selling 7D2D MP servers because of lack of interest.

 

And this brings us back to lack of content. Slowing down the progression, does not fix the lack of content. And content is what people come back for. A graphical upgrade is something awwwww about for the first 10 minutes ( expect a lot of forum posts about how beautiful things look ) but the real response will come later, when people are used to to graphics and discover during their gameplay, that their is no new content!!!!

 

1) I agree that you have no idea. You have conjecture based on fear and anger. Fear that your preference of playing isn't going to be supported going forward and anger that development is taking longer than you like. This is completely understandable but your emotions about it are dampening your logic. Logic would dictate that the small surface things you have seen in the videos are not everything there is to the update. But because of your fear and anger you are assuming that what has been shown is all there is.

 

2) There is a ton of content in this update. It just isn't the content you want so once again "what I don't like" = "broken" with you but just altered to "content i don't like" = "not content".

 

3) You say they are slowing down the progression while others are ranting that they've sped up the progression too much...lol. It's all relative and that is why the progression system is not broken as you say. It is simply a baseline that people can adjust to their preferred style via xml edits. You say that is using modding to fix the problem. I say it is using modding to adjust the game options to a new preference. It is simply a difference in perspective. Yours makes you angry and bitter towards the developers. It's apparent in how you immediately assume they lied when things turned out differently than they planned. Mine makes me happy and grateful towards the developers. Others feel the same and you can tell because as long as they know the game is still being developed they are content to wait and follow and experience each new iteration.

[RestInPieces]

I'll mostly quote Roland for convenience.

 

1) Spam crafting was different because it involved an automatic process. People could go AFK and earn experience.

 

I may be wrong, but I strongly believe this could have just been fixed easily without them changing the whole system though.

 

2) Madmole has stated and it has been repeated that the level cap might be going away so that people can get everything if they are willing to do a lot of work. So this is something still being decided.

 

I think it is clear that this will create problems between SP and MP. Tech progression-related perks should be independent from gameplay perks imo and be integrated into an exploration-related progression system and perks concerning survival should be toned-down/changed so that they don't affect the survival-related gameplay loop of the game.

 

3) Backstep has not been removed. I backstep all the time and avoid getting hit all the time. Yes the zombies can swing during other motions now but as long as you are careful you can easily avoid getting hit. You are arguing from false premises.

 

Removing backwards sprinting (I think that's what Ben means to say) was a good change. Normal zombie combat needs to see many more dramatic improvements and consequently, fewer bulletsponges.

 

1) You are deliberately leaving out the attachments from your assessment about weapons. Weapons are not just one part. The base weapons are very basic and people are going to want to attach mods to them. There are dozens of mods that do a much wider range of buffs to the base weapons. Weapons as a whole are much better than they ever have been.

 

Another good change. Sometimes streamlining means making systems that were needlessly complex, more intuitive. I think that is the case here - will see in-game.

 

2) Books and schematics have a new role. It is still in flux.

 

Sometimes I wonder if there is any planning at all when it comes to designing this game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not saying this just because of the above, but because of the continuous revamps. Anyway their game, their pace.

 

5) They are making the game lean so that they can then add content to a strong unified modular foundation. I know you are impatient. You have repeatedly stated that 5 years is way too long in your opinion but regardless...they aren't to the point in development you want them to be at. More content including bandits, survivors, and everything else in their list of goals is still forthcoming.

 

Actually think that the game has enough content, so that IF they use it cleverly, they could make the progression curve much longer, take advantage of every game asset and make it more intuitive (vague, but I described what that means in the other thread). Players will never stop asking for new content as long as they can uneventfully chew through any amount of current content that exists.

 

In your mind it is simply "I don't like it" = "broken". Problem is that the world is more diverse than you. Other people like vanilla just fine and there is nothing broken about design decisions that are made. You just don't like them so you have the option to mod them but you aren't fixing anything.

2) There is a ton of content in this update. It just isn't the content you want so once again "what I don't like" = "broken" with you but just altered to "content i don't like" = "not content".

 

This is worth talking about. Tastes can be easily confused with self-conflicting/unintuitive design. If everything was subjective, no game ever would be considered to be mediocre or bad, like I said in the other thread. Some perks seem to be doing that (conflicting with other areas of the game) - I know it is a matter of fine-tuning, I am just wondering why this is not obvious.

 

3) You say they are slowing down the progression while others are ranting that they've sped up the progression too much...lol. It's all relative and that is why the progression system is not broken as you say.

 

I am one of them. Throughout development, sometimes it was overly random, sometimes it had... weird gating and in general imho it's fast. Am I saying this because of my personal tastes? Not only. I am mostly saying it because of these simple reasons:

-They don't properly exploit all of their own assets/game content, which simply is a shame. From building materials, to tools and so on.

-Players can skip much of it and then complain that they eventually get bored because they reach the "end of the line".

 

Sorry to say it Fun Pimps, but fighting zombies in this game is not all that fun. It's relatively easy to master regardless of weapons, except when fighting certain enemies you rarely see. So grinding XP by bonking zeds on the head is no more fun than crafting axes for me.

 

Zombie XP is a bad idea for many obvious reasons. They should get rid of it already.

 

It always find it funny when the Pimps complain about spam crafting but people will simply end up doing whatever spamming to get fast skill points anyway. If that means digging at night while spam crafting or whatever.

 

What irks me is that I never got a reply from anyone about why that system couldn't be salvaged by the use of simple diminishing returns.

 

Its the lack of content after your first week in-game. All these changes are done to make you "progress" less fast, as to hide the lack of content down the line.

 

Oh I wish that progression was slower. But at the game's current state this would serve no purpose. If there was more emphasis on the game's survival elements, it wouldn't feel like a grind in the first place.

[Roland]

I may be wrong, but I strongly believe this could have just been fixed easily without them changing the whole system though.

 

Gazz was the one trying to make the bucking bronco bull of crafting xp fit in with the rest of the xp pathways and he didn't seem to think it was easy and I don't think he ignored all the suggestions voiced here. Gazz is a regular. They are no looking at what can be done on a limited basis for crafting xp to decide if they can put it in. The new event based buff system they have is so much more powerful and there are things they can do now that were not possible with A16. So maybe.

 

I think it is clear that this will create problems between SP and MP. Tech progression-related perks should be independent from gameplay perks imo and be integrated into an exploration-related progression system and perks concerning survival should be toned-down/changed so that they don't affect the survival-related gameplay loop of the game.

 

This is exactly the type of feedback Madmole will want to hear once you have played it and can comment from a position of knowledge about the A17 game state as a whole. He is actually quite excited for experimental this time around because of the perk system.

 

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if there is any planning at all when it comes to designing this game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not saying this just because of the above, but because of the continuous revamps. Anyway their game, their pace.

 

In this case the books and schematics were always considered place-holders. They remained placeholders so long most people just thought they were the real deal. But I remember when they were added and all the random haters complained about them that one of the assurances we gave them to placate them was that they were just placeholders until the skill/perk system was in place. Why did they experiment with them so much? They like to try all sorts of things that might not be for this game but might be for something coming in the future.

 

What irks me is that I never got a reply from anyone about why that system couldn't be salvaged by the use of simple diminishing returns.

 

The system wasn't where they wanted it. They are interested in powerful modular system. It wasn't that they couldn't have found some ugly way to patch the old system to make it work. It was that they wanted keep developing and create a system that was powerful and unified modifying effects into one system. They are looking at diminishing returns for crafting xp now to see whether they can do it and have it be balanced with other xp earning avenues. More importantly, the system they have now will serve them well for this game AND their next game.

[Gas]

To me, the perks and what I know of A17 look just like everything else I've seen TFP do since I've been playing from 12.5. I like about half of what they've done and scratch my head at the other half of what they've done.