Which New A-21 Mission POI's are Overly Difficult for Their Level.

[Silverjohn]

I know some of the old grognards have been asking for more of a challenge but I've noticed that a few of the new A 21 POI's seem unreasonably difficult for the mission tier they've been assigned.   (If you reply to the thread please keep in mind new players to the game may not have your level of experience and expertise and we don't want to drive off new players with unreasonable difficulty spikes between one POI and another;). 

 

If anyone else has found this to be true as well please add to the list with the POI name and the reason why you think it's been incorrectly rated.  For example:

 

Camp Carwal

Tier 1

The last loot room requires you to drop through a one way hatch and automatically triggers two regular zombies and a lumberjack in an enclosed space.  I've had this happen on two different characters and even on Nomad difficulty.  A lumberjack is doable in a Tier 1 if you have room to kite it but penned in by the room clutter and two other zombies it's a quick death.

 

(Edited for spelling.)

Edited July 14, 2023 by Silverjohn (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

Navezgane Corrections. Feels like 99% of the place is "@%$# your stealth build lulz"

[Riamus]

15 hours ago, Silverjohn said:

I know some of the old grognards have been asking for more of a challenge but I've noticed that a few of the new A 21 POI's seem unreasonably difficult for the mission tier they've been assigned.   (If you reply to the thread please keep in mind new players to the game may not have your level of experience and expertise and we don't want to drive off new players with unreasonable difficulty spikes between one POI and another;). 

 

If anyone else has found this to be true as well please add to the list with the POI name and the reason why you think it's been incorrectly rated.  For example:

 

Camp Carwal

Tier 1

The last loot room requires you to drop through a one way hatch and automatically triggers two regular zombies and a lumberjack in an enclosed space.  I've had this happen on two different characters and even on Nomad difficulty.  A lumberjack is doable in a Tier 1 if you have room to kite it but penned in by the room clutter and two other zombies it's a quick death.

 

(Edited for spelling.)

I agree with you on that one.  It's not a good one for the first tier 1 quest of your game.

 

The balance of the POI tiers should really get some work.  There are some that are too hard for the tier when compared to most others in that tier and some that are too easy for their tier compared to most others.  I had a tier 5 infestation that felt like a tier 3 or tier 4 normal quest.  There is a tier 1 gas station that has only 2 or maybe 3 zombies in it (that should be a tier 0).  I think they are determining tier by the number of zombies but the number of zombies isn't really what makes it difficult or easy.  It's how many come at you at once and from what directions and whether or not there are escape paths or room to maneuver that really affects difficulty.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Roland]

There are a few tier-one POIs that have the player face off with a dog. That is almost certain death if you aren't ready for it. I think one is a bar that once clear the inside you step outside into a side yard and there is a dog and another is a house and the dog is in the bathroom. There was one more but I couldn't be sure it didn't just come in from outside like a dog wandering horde might have spawned while I was in the quest.

 

8 hours ago, Old Crow said:

Navezgane Corrections. Feels like 99% of the place is "@%$# your stealth build lulz"

 

That one is tough but it is also marked Tier 5 and there has been a lot of feedback that the previous T5 pois while being long were not particularly challenging so if they did one new one that is particularly hard and all about triggered ambushes and parkour battling-- at least it is marked as "most difficult".

Edited July 15, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Kazgrel]

The saving grace for Navezgane Corrections is there's plenty of room to move around/kite/etc., but it is very frustrating when you do everything you can to be as stealth as possible and the game's set up to just "Nah fam" you in some of the nastiest spots there are.  Aside from that, the difficulty of that POI is spot on; I've cleared it multiple times (mostly with 1-2 friends along with me) as a T6 infestation and still managed to come out of it with more ammo than I spent, heh.

As for the OP's question, I'd say any T1s having a guaranteed dog spawn are pretty much a death sentence for many players within the first 7 days.

[Ramethzer0]

14 hours ago, Old Crow said:

Navezgane Corrections. Feels like 99% of the place is "@%$# your stealth build lulz"

I had a buddy that went to go do it solo with a stealth build, and he came back twice with his tail between his legs.   Although he had not said it out loud, he respecc'd almost right away and I suspect he had plenty of reasons to do so.

 

I've done this POI three times with my group (numbering 5) and twice solo.  I did it once in the forest biome, once in the desert, and twice in the snow biome.  I'm split on how I feel about it for two reasons:

 

I find this particular POI to be a tremendous resource and time sink for the value of the return rewards.   The loot inside the POI was abysmal compared to sheer amount of resources that went into the mission itself, and even the trader reward was doled out like any other mission of the same tier.   I can tell you with complete honesty that not only was it a logistical nightmare to clear, but the sheer scale of it was a massive stew of similar looking rooms and hallways that it's very easy to get lost in.  The walls, despite being quite sturdy as one would expect in a prison, are basically paper in vanilla settings and the various hordes can collectively chew through it in record time.  I understand that this is technically a feature of infestation missions (which i think are interesting) but I gotta say it is not particularly inspiring in any special way other than it being a virtual death trap.  Unless you're doing it for bragging rights, there's really no incentive to ever enter it.  I can't even fathom how terrifying it would be to complete in the Wasteland biome.   As a base structure I can't recommend it at all for the same reasons.

 

But, for those folks looking for a REALLY tough challenge this place is for you.   It's a sweaty mass of &#@% coming at you from nearly every angle.  I won't spoil it here how this unfolds so I really recommend you try it out for yourself.   I had a blast running it both in groups and in solo, but that is pretty much its only redeeming quality.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

That one is tough but it is also marked Tier 5 and there has been a lot of feedback that the previous T5 pois while being long were not particularly challenging so if they did one new one that is particularly hard and all about triggered ambushes and parkour battling-- at least it is marked as "most difficult".

 

 

I don't know about the parkour battling, but it's definitely all about triggered ambushes. I'm surprised I was able to solo it at all. Next time, I'm going in with a backpack full of ammo and medical supplies.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

I don't know about the parkour battling

 

I just mean that the open areas are designed for running around avoiding zombies as you battle them. But, yes, plenty of ammo and plenty of medkits are a must.

[RipClaw]

County Jail. The end room is a death trap. You have some room to maneuver but the Feral Wight in the jail cells in the upper ring reach through the bars and immediately make you bleed so you have no visibility. That is the worst. To keep the zombies under control you need grenades or something else explosive.

Edited July 16, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Gazz]

21 hours ago, Old Crow said:

Navezgane Corrections. Feels like 99% of the place is "@%$# your stealth build lulz"

In Prison 1 I was lucky I had brought a 2nd stack of SMG ammo with me and I got it done.

There are a 134 (I mean... a bunch) of those POI now. Unfortunately there is no way to know which ones you pretty much HAVE TO go loud with.

 

I mean there is if you happened to search for SleeperVolumeTriggeredBy across all files and unique/sort it but who would do that?

 

Bumrush Counter	POI	File
3	Aldos Cabinet	countrytown_business_04
1	Animal Hospital	farm_04
2	Appliance Co.	countrytown_business_02
1	Atlas Metal Co.	country_junkyard_02
1	Ballzstrike Bowling	bowling_alley_02
1	Beavers Restaurant	fastfood_05
1	Bell Lake	rural_outdoor_wedding_01
1	Bert's Brewery	oldwest_strip_03
1	Bill Gearz Place	house_old_modular_02
1	Boe's Market	store_grocery_05
1	Bombshell News	downtown_building_05
1	Butcher Pete's	countrytown_business_05
1	COC Chemicals	warehouse_07
4	Coleman's Drive-In	rural_drive_in_01
1	Crotalus Rest Area	rest_area_03
1	Departure Plaza	departure_city_blk_plaza
2	Don Vittorio Spagetto Residence	house_modern_18
1	Downtown Evacuation Point	downtown_parking_lot_01
3	Downtown Marketplace	downtown_strip_05
1	Downtown Post Office	post_office_01
8	Dr. Karen Higashi Residence	house_modern_23
1	Ecotrash Recycling Center	junkyard_01
2	Fiery Farms	farm_05
1	Fit Box	downtown_filler_11
2	Flushing Rule Palace	downtown_strip_01
1	Fort Bags	army_camp_02
1	Fort Camo	army_camp_01
3	Fort Choppa	army_camp_05
1	Fort Quonset	army_camp_03
2	Fort Razor	army_camp_04
4	Garage 1st Construction	house_construction_03
1	Gonuts Donuts	downtown_filler_22
1	Good Life Apartments	apartments_01
1	Happy Sleep Motel	motel_03
1	Higashi Pharmaceutical	skyscraper_03
1	Historic Office Suites	office_03
1	HNN Bank	downtown_filler_23
1	Hog Foot Village	survivor_site_06
2	Hotel Zombona	hotel_01
3	Housing Development	housing_development_01
3	Hybrid Energy	utility_electric_co_02
2	Hybrid Energy Substation #1	utility_substation_01
1	Hybrid Energy Substation #2	utility_substation_02
1	Hybrid Energy Substation #3	utility_substation_03
2	Jack's Lumber Mill	sawmill_01
4	Jeffelon Zuckergates Estate	house_modern_24
1	Jim & Tim's Bullets and Booze	countrytown_business_12
5	Joe's Junction	downtown_strip_04
3	Johnson's Warehouses	warehouse_08
1	Journey's End	lodge_01
2	KZL Radio Station	radio_station_01
1	Le Spank	downtown_filler_02
1	Luigi's Pizza	downtown_filler_13
1	Ma Baker & Sons Bakery	store_bakery_01
1	Maggie's Corner Cafe	countrytown_business_07
3	Mercy Point Camp	survivor_site_05
2	Mobile Field Hospital	parking_lot_02
12	Navezgane Corrections	prison_01
11	Navezgane County Jail	prison_02
1	Navezgane Falls Diner	diner_07
4	Navezgane General Hospital	hospital_01
6	NDC Checkpoint Five	roadside_checkpoint_05
4	NDC Checkpoint Four	roadside_checkpoint_04
1	NDC Checkpoint One	roadside_checkpoint_01
2	NDC Checkpoint Three	roadside_checkpoint_03
2	NDC Checkpoint Two	roadside_checkpoint_02
3	NFD Downtown HQ	downtown_strip_12
2	NFD Engine 4	fire_station_04
2	NPD 3rd Div.	police_station_03
2	Olgiddy & Brother Advertising	city_center_01
1	Our Best Moments	cabin_18
1	P&B Machining Co.	industrial_business_08
3	Pantelli Residence	house_modern_28
2	Pass-N-Gas Plaza	roadside_truckstop_01
1	Pass-N-Gas Refinery	utility_refinery_01
7	Pass-N-Gas Store #05	gas_station_05
1	Perishton Tunnel North	perishton_tunnel_02
1	Pete's Outlet	downtown_strip_03
1	Piggy Bank	bank_01
1	Pop-N-Pills	store_pharmacy_02
5	Pop-N-Pills Factory	factory_03
1	Pop-N-Pills Mini-Mart	store_pharmacy_01
2	Pop's Pawn & Bel's Bakery	downtown_strip_09
2	Post Office #2	post_office_02
1	Pristine Healthcare	remnant_waste_18
1	Pump Substation	wilderness_filler_11
1	R. Thornbury Residence	house_old_tudor_04
1	Radio Outpost	survivor_site_03
7	Ranger Station Alpha	ranger_station_01
2	Ranger Station Charlie	ranger_station_03
3	Ranger Station Delta	ranger_station_04
1	Ranger Station Echo	ranger_station_06
1	Ranger Station Foxtrot	ranger_station_05
1	Ranger Station Golf	ranger_station_07
5	Red Mesa Compound	installation_red_mesa
1	Richard Munchz Plaza	downtown_strip_02
2	Rise Realty	office_02
1	Rosilyn Residence	house_modern_25
1	Scarecrow Fields	farm_02
1	Schittz Law	downtown_filler_03
3	Shady Woods Amphitheatre	field_concert_01
11	Shamway Factory	factory_01
8	Shotgun Messiah Factory	factory_02
2	Shotgun Messiah Range	store_gun_01
1	Spark's Place	house_old_modular_07
2	Stand Tower	downtown_building_03
3	The Bend Apartments	apartments_03
1	The Bennett Residence	house_modern_14
1	The Burgcaneer	fastfood_06
1	The Engall’s Residence	cabin_17
2	The Gladue Residence	cabin_13
1	The Goldsmith Residence	house_old_ranch_03
1	The Harrison Residence	cabin_03
2	The Last Party House	house_modern_26
3	The Last Sunset Nursing Home	nursing_home_01
1	The McElveen Residence	house_old_pyramid_02
3	The Paciotti Residence	house_burnt_02
1	The Purser Residence	house_old_modular_01
1	The Smokehouse	survivor_site_02
1	The TJ Morales Residence	cabin_07
1	The Wagner Residence	house_old_modular_04
3	The Wright Residence	house_old_mansard_07
1	Three Dollar Store	store_discount_01
2	Tower Construction Site	skyscraper_04
1	Town Square Apartments	downtown_filler_12
3	Tri-Med Group	office_05
1	Uninhabited Mansion	house_construction_05
9	Vanity Tower	apartments_02
1	Vick Garrison's Pedipawn	commercial_strip_03
1	Weston Weigh Station	weigh_station_01
2	Working Stiff Superstore	store_hardware_02
1	Working Stiff Tools	store_hardware_01
1	Working Stiff Tools Warehouse	warehouse_05
1	ZMB Radio Station	radio_station_02

 

Do NOT confuse this with a threat rating. I think Butcher Pete's killed me twice while the prisons did not.
A lot depends on the quality of execution, not the quantity of triggers.

(The @%$# who designed Pete's knows what I'm talking about! =P)

[pApA^LeGBa]

The Wagner Residence. A T2 POI. Not a real to dangerous type more of a "Seriously? You want to be that cheap just to kill me?" issue. 

 

IF you have the clear quest and you use the exit the game gives you after clearing it out, you run into a dog that isn´t part of the quest and instantly triggered as soon as i set a foot outside the door. Ofc i was encumbered, not at full health and not paying any attention because i just did a clear quest. And yes, the dog is  within the boundaries of the POI.

 

That kind of cheap "challenge" is what drives new players away.

Edited July 16, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

I will say it like this:
dont play full stealth. Its just not worth it or fun to play.

Instead, use it as a secondary attribute.
Most stealthweapons are strong enough to oneshot appropriate level Z's and you still have your main attribute for these stupid rooms.
Is that good design? F*** no! But at least this way you can still play stealtharcher, even if it is far less exciting than the alphas without auto wakeups.
Since TFPs are known for redesigning @%$# they worked on for quite some time... maybe we get lucky and they scrap the system again... although past events do not paint a pretty picture for the redo... it is most likely something like "every Z' wakes up if you can see it. Once you turn around, it instantly teleports back to its spawn so that you can not kite it!" honestly wouldnt be surprised if they implemented something like this... Because it would "increase the tention and force the player to engage with the enemies instead of boringly trying to find ways to play intelligently."

[RipClaw]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:30 AM, Old Crow said:

Navezgane Corrections. Feels like 99% of the place is "@%$# your stealth build lulz"

Stealth may not work but exploding crossbow bolts seem to be very effective in this POI when used in combination with the fences and prison doors.
 

[ElCabong]

They all are when I've been drinking rum.

[hiemfire]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:04 PM, Silverjohn said:

even on Nomad difficulty.

Iirc difficulty level (adventurer, nomad, warrior, etc.) only affects the damage the player deals and receives. It does nothing to affect what gets spawned in.

[Laz Man]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:04 PM, Silverjohn said:

I know some of the old grognards have been asking for more of a challenge but I've noticed that a few of the new A 21 POI's seem unreasonably difficult for the mission tier they've been assigned.   (If you reply to the thread please keep in mind new players to the game may not have your level of experience and expertise and we don't want to drive off new players with unreasonable difficulty spikes between one POI and another;). 

 

If anyone else has found this to be true as well please add to the list with the POI name and the reason why you think it's been incorrectly rated.  For example:

 

Camp Carwal

Tier 1

The last loot room requires you to drop through a one way hatch and automatically triggers two regular zombies and a lumberjack in an enclosed space.  I've had this happen on two different characters and even on Nomad difficulty.  A lumberjack is doable in a Tier 1 if you have room to kite it but penned in by the room clutter and two other zombies it's a quick death.

 

(Edited for spelling.)

 

Thanks for the feedback on camp carwhal.  Will share it with the designer. 

[Laz Man]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:58 PM, Roland said:

 

I just mean that the open areas are designed for running around avoiding zombies as you battle them. But, yes, plenty of ammo and plenty of medkits are a must.

 

That is correct.  In the jail, there are alot of things in the environment to take advantage of to even the odds.  You can even run and hide in dark places in some of the triggered volume setups to regain stealth and continue silent killing if your willing to invest the time and effort.

 

It would be cool if there was an item / perk / effect to make the zombies have a harder time finding you (e.g. shooting out a light, etc.) 🤔

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

That is correct.  In the jail, there are alot of things in the environment to take advantage of to even the odds.

But that seems to be missing in the end room of the Navezgane County Jail or I am missing something. I know that there is an door that can be opened in an office in the upper area, but you have to know that first. Otherwise I don't see anything that gives me a break or an opportunity to reload. It is very easy for the zombies to push you into a corner in this room and because you bleed so easily in A21, you can hardly see anything. And since you enter the room through a hole in the ceiling, there is no way back.

 

In Navzegane Correction, on the other hand, you can make very good use of the prison doors and fences to give yourself a bit of breathing space and so that groups of zombies form which you can then fight effectively with grenades, pipe bombs or exploding arrows/crossbolts.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

 

It would be cool if there was an item / perk / effect to make the zombies have a harder time finding you (e.g. shooting out a light, etc.) 🤔

 

That would be cool! If it worked. They follow so closely there, there's no time to try and hide, and getting 15-20 rad zombies and ferals thrown at you doesn't really give you time to think about shooting out lights (they still see you anyway).

Edited July 17, 2023 by Old Crow (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

doesn't really give you time to think about shooting out lights

I, somewhat sarcastically, proposed adding flash bangs in another thread.. don't try to aim at lights, become your own sun for a split second...

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

doesn't really give you time to think about shooting out lights

Does that work at all ? The lights have quite a bit of HP and the arrows and bullets only do minor block damage.

 

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Does that work at all ?

Not really; being in a beam of light does reduce your stealth, but once you've agroed a trigger room it wouldn't do much. I think Laz might be dreaming of a new mechanic based on the current ones, though...

[For4ger]

17 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Thanks for the feedback on camp carwhal.  Will share it with the designer. 

Please pass on my best wishes to the creator of Jim & Tim's Bullets Booze, I finally have the perfect base location I've been dreaming of for so long!

[Rince]

7 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

That is correct.  In the jail, there are alot of things in the environment to take advantage of to even the odds.  You can even run and hide in dark places in some of the triggered volume setups to regain stealth and continue silent killing if your willing to invest the time and effort.

 

It would be cool if there was an item / perk / effect to make the zombies have a harder time finding you (e.g. shooting out a light, etc.) 🤔

Smoke bombs!! Like the one that ninja uses in movies!!

[Laz Man]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

But that seems to be missing in the end room of the Navezgane County Jail or I am missing something. I know that there is an door that can be opened in an office in the upper area, but you have to know that first. Otherwise I don't see anything that gives me a break or an opportunity to reload. It is very easy for the zombies to push you into a corner in this room and because you bleed so easily in A21, you can hardly see anything. And since you enter the room through a hole in the ceiling, there is no way back.

 

In Navzegane Correction, on the other hand, you can make very good use of the prison doors and fences to give yourself a bit of breathing space and so that groups of zombies form which you can then fight effectively with grenades, pipe bombs or exploding arrows/crossbolts.

 

 

There are a couple of elevated positions (including the pillar you drop in on) that will save a player a few seconds.  There is also 3 areas you can sorta loop the zombies around if you time it right.  One is in a cell, the other is in a store room, and the last one in the reception room.  There is also a hidden "last stand" secret but not going to spoil that one... 😉

4 hours ago, Old Crow said:

That would be cool! If it worked. They follow so closely there, there's no time to try and hide, and getting 15-20 rad zombies and ferals thrown at you doesn't really give you time to think about shooting out lights (they still see you anyway).

 

The shooting out the lights idea is more of a preemptive idea for players who like to do the hide and sneak Meta.  

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

Not really; being in a beam of light does reduce your stealth, but once you've agroed a trigger room it wouldn't do much. I think Laz might be dreaming of a new mechanic based on the current ones, though...

 

Yes this, it would be nice if there was an easier way for players to "turn off lights" if they want to take full advantage of the hide and seek Meta.  Light and noise is the biggest factor in evading zeds, even those from a triggered volume.