Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Guest]

Several things that I hope they fix:

 

The reach of the enemies, to fix that I installed a mod but, I should not have to.

 

Zombie hit box, sometimes, well, most of the times within nose scratching distance an arrow/bolt/bullet anything. will go through the zombie

 

I can have about 25 stamina and I puffing like an 80 a day smooker but, I can have about 18 or do stamina and I am stronger that the terminator and faster than the flash.

 

I get hit on the leg by a crawler and my arm is sprained. So by that I get hit on the head and ... well you get the picture.

 

I have mentioned this before, the crawling of zeds.

 

It would be, also, nice to have lip-sync as it does look very dated when the character/trader is speaking and their mouth does not move.

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

 

No worries.

I agree

Bad events arent entirely avoidable regardless and there is already a ton of random events that are a blast to interact with. A random zombie wandering into your clay pit or a horde appearing when your base isnt finished.

 

Really a ton? So far you listed zombies. Loot and weather are the only other random events I can think of and currently weather has nearly no consequences.

 

9 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

 

 

Those are good things to adapt to.  You are constantly adapting to changes in the game and thats the way it should be. Then there are lesser things like getting hungry making you prioritize food, being thirsty making you look for a water source, needing ammo making you mine for lead or being sick making you look for medicine or better quality food. These are also things you react to by preparing . If we applied the dysentery rule to other things the game would be insanely annoying, like getting a bleed effect from looting a cabinet because you 'cut yourself on the counter' or something. Getting a cut from not being careful around zombies though is the right kind of bad.

 

While having hud bars for everything might feel too gamey and lose immersion we already have it for health and we have bars for hunger and thirst. Its really no different to those. If the game could make me feel hungry or thirsty or sick then we could remove them, but conveying stimulus like that is impossible (and im pretty certain playing a game that makes you feel horrible would be awful)

So status bars are the best compromise we can get. Its also an incredibly simple solution.

I mean we could apply that same argument to everything else on the hud, the exact argument applies to health, i could get cut up and mangled and not have any idea whether im going to survive or die. Sometimes you get tapped on the arm by a zombie and you die instantly (because you were on 1 health) but thats just the way the game works, its how you convey information to players that is incredibly important. You could hide the health bar too but you would need another way to communicate that information. The game might feel even more immersive but i imagine players would feel incredibly frustrated with no information bars to communicate health, hunger or thirst. Sickness wouldnt be any different, in fact we have debuff timers already where we know what percentage of infection we have or how many seconds left of dysentery we have. I dont think a sickness bar that consolidates some of the debuffs would really ruin immersion for anyone.  (Also i originally thought of this idea as a replacement to infections which could be interesting to interact with a 'sickness' system)

 

I see what you are saying but i think you are making too many assumptions here. Perhaps that is my fault for not giving better examples so i will try to communicate as best i can what i mean.

I agree that its a problem that i never get dysentery, but i think making it a core part of the early game where you either go thirsty or get the runs if you are unlucky isnt great. Playing blackjack with the poor food you get at the start is more interesting, try eat as much awful food as you can without getting sick is a lot more fun than rolling a bad roll and facing consequences. Also the reward of not getting dysentery really isnt enough to ever feel like you are getting lucky, its the kind of risk/reward where you only ever feel unlucky since 5% is low enought that you feel like you shouldnt get ill but you do. 

Also i suggested making zombie attacks inflict a small amount of sickness on you, this will mean that you cant just eat 4 rotten meat/murky water and be fine, you will be at high risk of getting sick from zombie attacks. I also suggested some mitigating factors early game where you can craft items that reduce it a small amount like goldenrod tea perhaps giving a buff that reduces sickness by a small amount over time (perhaps something like 10% per minute for 1 minute per drink) so you can give yourself sidequests to stay healthy instead of just gunning for the power loot.

 

This would actually create more decision making since you cant just cure it, you need to manage it till its gone. The way the debuffs interact with the spec could be different too, perhaps after getting to 75% sickness you get dysentery, when you go below your dysentery is cured. Id expect the way debuffs interact with a new system would be revised too, perhaps at 100% instead of getting dysentery you get infection and more sickness after that adds to infection (which could replace the current infection system)

Your mistake is thinking i want things to be easier. The fact that vitamins make you immune and goldenrod is an instant cure go completely against making dysentery a problem at all. The problem is that the sickness is too random to get and too easy to fix. At the moment its just in the realm of annoying where in the first week you get frustrated and get dysentery maybe once or twice from doing nothing wrong. I want things to be risks through the whole game, making later stages have more effective ways of avoiding and managing the problems but still being a conscious thing to mitigate and avoid. After getting the dew collecters its a non-issue, thats binary.

I just want to have better control over those things, im happy to get punished for playing poorly, but im not happy to be punished for being unlucky.

 

See, i kind of want it to be an issue, just an issue i can manage. Random chance just means if im unlucky im unlucky.

I was thinking that getting to 100 sickness would make you vomit and reduce you to 75%. I didnt realize vomiting was removed tbh, i genuinely want it integrated into the sickness system! Its the exact kind of punishment id expect, even worse is the idea that i play blackjack with my sickness and get to 90% sick, go into a poi, get mobbed by a few zombies that tap me up to 100% and i vomit right there in the middle of a fight. that would be horiffic. 

 

You can manage the current system. By prioritizing finding water and goldenrod and having always goldenrod tea with you.

 

9 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

 

Numbers subject to balance of course, it would be up to TFP to decide how they would want it implemented if at all so any numbers i suggest are just examples. Im just presenting a concept that i think would make things feel a little more deterministic.

 

What I like about your proposed system is the randomness mixed in with the managability. Adding a random value to your bar whenever you drink makes it somewhat manageable and gamey. The first few drinks are safe, but the higher the bar gets the more you are gambling and taking risks. For this to work the maximum value added should be high but seldom (for example rnd(2...8)*rnd(2...8) if the dysentery is reached at 100)

 

What I don't like is the idea that zombie attacks add to the bar, for principle reasons. Because zombie attacks already add many conditions like broken bones and infections, for the player it would just be part of the danger a zombie represents instead of a survival issue. Also players have vastly different skills in avoiding zombie hits, but the game should reward all skills a player can bring to the table, not condense your survival completely on how well you fight.

 

 

[Flycatcher]

@Roland Might sweeten the deal for "Master Chef" since for most it will be a pointless skill.

Maybe add a nutrition bonus for meals made by people with the skill instead of crafting speed increase and less heat increase for active campfires.

[Roland]

12 minutes ago, Flycatcher said:

@Roland Might sweeten the deal for "Master Chef" since for most it will be a pointless skill.

Maybe add a nutrition bonus for meals made by people with the skill instead of crafting speed increase and less heat increase for active campfires.

 

I imagine we will get lots of feedback and ideas for perks once people play with it. Your ideas sound good to me.

[Guppycur]

Then you're dealing with tracking which food was made by someone skilled, so it'll be another recipe.  That's sorta already done by the actual food, so although an idea I love, good luck getting tfp to do it.

[Flycatcher]

Was thinking it would work without tracking by having heatmap not come from the cooking station but having heat come from the cooked recipe, like smell (kind of like the early alpha's had smell working when having food on character for those who remember)

 

That way as a bonus you can have bacon cause more heat than boiled eggs making it more a tactical choice on what to cook as well.

 

The second part giving more nutrition, this could be done for example swapping unlocked recipe boiled eggs for the "recipe" and "Master chef" variant for those who have it the perk. 

The heat increase could also be added to this.

[Roland]

I wonder if they could do it simply by having a percent chance that ingredients combined will result in a regular bowl of meat stew and a percent chance that ingredients combined would result in Special Meat Stew. So no new recipes but some new versions of the dishes. You could even have Awful [Dish], Regular [Dish], and Special [Dish] for all the current dishes that can be cooked and the Master Chef perk could change the percent chance for each. Unperked maybe 45%  50% 5% and then with each rank shrink the the Awful dish chance and increase the regular and special dish chance.  Just spitballing... not sure if a crafting recipe can even be made to lead to three different possible outcomes.

 

[NekoPawtato]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

not sure if a crafting recipe can even be made to lead to three different possible outcomes.

 

It would also mean more storage space needed for food

[bloodmoth13]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Really a ton? So far you listed zombies. Loot and weather are the only other random events I can think of and currently weather has nearly no consequences.

 

 

You can manage the current system. By prioritizing finding water and goldenrod and having always goldenrod tea with you.

 

 

What I like about your proposed system is the randomness mixed in with the managability. Adding a random value to your bar whenever you drink makes it somewhat manageable and gamey. The first few drinks are safe, but the higher the bar gets the more you are gambling and taking risks. For this to work the maximum value added should be high but seldom (for example rnd(2...8)*rnd(2...8) if the dysentery is reached at 100)

 

What I don't like is the idea that zombie attacks add to the bar, for principle reasons. Because zombie attacks already add many conditions like broken bones and infections, for the player it would just be part of the danger a zombie represents instead of a survival issue. Also players have vastly different skills in avoiding zombie hits, but the game should reward all skills a player can bring to the table, not condense your survival completely on how well you fight.

 

 

The entire game itself is random dude

 

 

The random chance for infection is a pain too, my idea was baking infection into the sickness system, so instead of getting a random chance for infection you get a % of sickness, when getting to a certain threshold you get infected. Certain zombies deal massive infection damage at late stages.

Obviously many things would need to be shuffled around and rebalanced. 

 

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

22 hours ago, Roland said:

 

The answer is "Its done when its done" If it misses or makes the Steam Sale then so be it. This very issue is exactly why independent studios exist. They don't want their release schedules to be dictated by marketing concerns. They want to release or hold until they are ready. If they can get a release out in time for a big sale event then that's great but there are no marketing execs forcing the programmers to release whatever they have ready or not to meet a marketing deadline.

 

And they certainly don't care to have you and others from the community slipping into that role either.

Cool then the answer is “We don’t provide dates” then deal with it. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Anything else falls into passive-aggressive or trolling territory.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Fanatical_Meat (see edit history)

[Roland]

16 hours ago, NukemDed said:

if you wanted to role play as chuck norris, what skill trees would you invest in and why

 

If I wanted to play as Chuck Norris, the skill trees would invest in me, not the other way around...

 

1 hour ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Cool then the answer is “We don’t provide dates” then deal with it. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

 

The answer has always been "Its done when it's done. That is the catch phrase that has always been the answer. It is what we mean and it is what we say. It's not a difficult phrase to understand. We will work on a build until we are happy about releasing it, end of story. There is no ulterior motive to be aggressive or snarky. You can take it that way but that is not the meaning. You keep trying to read additional meanings into the phrase but your efforts don't change the actual meaning.

 

1 hour ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Anything else falls into passive-aggressive or trolling territory.

 

Go preach it on a YouTube channel because here it's simply the phrase that defines our release schedule philosophy.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

I wonder if they could do it simply by having a percent chance that ingredients combined will result in a regular bowl of meat stew and a percent chance that ingredients combined would result in Special Meat Stew. So no new recipes but some new versions of the dishes. You could even have Awful [Dish], Regular [Dish], and Special [Dish] for all the current dishes that can be cooked and the Master Chef perk could change the percent chance for each. Unperked maybe 45%  50% 5% and then with each rank shrink the the Awful dish chance and increase the regular and special dish chance.  Just spitballing... not sure if a crafting recipe can even be made to lead to three different possible outcomes.

 

I like it.  Make it so. 

[archergod]

Is there any Video of new Water Simulation? how it looks or work? 

[Roland]

3 hours ago, archergod said:

Is there any Video of new Water Simulation? how it looks or work? 

 

There has been no A21 video footage yet for anything. You haven't missed anything yet.

[Jost Amman]

46 minutes ago, Roland said:

There has been no A21 video footage yet for anything. You haven't missed anything yet.

Did you hear of any tentative date (or week/month) when The Fun Pimps could start releasing more info about upcoming content?

We're starving here and simply words don't cut it anymore... we need pictures, videos, dev streams! 

[sergeу]

52 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Слышали ли вы о какой-либо предварительной дате (или неделе/месяце), когда The Fun Pimps смогут начать публиковать больше информации о грядущем контенте?

Мы здесь голодаем, и просто словами уже не обойтись... нам нужны картинки, видео, стримы разработчиков! 

+++

[Fanatical_Meat]

13 hours ago, Roland said:

 

If I wanted to play as Chuck Norris, the skill trees would invest in me, not the other way around...

 

 

The answer has always been "Its done when it's done. That is the catch phrase that has always been the answer. It is what we mean and it is what we say. It's not a difficult phrase to understand. We will work on a build until we are happy about releasing it, end of story. There is no ulterior motive to be aggressive or snarky. You can take it that way but that is not the meaning. You keep trying to read additional meanings into the phrase but your efforts don't change the actual meaning.

 

 

Go preach it on a YouTube channel because here it's simply the phrase that defines our release schedule philosophy.

Point is imagine any other business using that line. How would it make you feel?
Imagine depositing a check and when asked at what time will the funds be available they said “When it’s done”. Personally I’d be pretty @%$#ed off that is literally the worst answer to a question.

Why the pimps spout this term when you know you’d never use it in nearly any other context or even face to face with another person is beyond me.

[Jost Amman]

10 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Point is imagine any other business using that line. How would it make you feel?
Imagine depositing a check and when asked at what time will the funds be available they said “When it’s done”. Personally I’d be pretty @%$#ed off that is literally the worst answer to a question.

Why the pimps spout this term when you know you’d never use it in nearly any other context or even face to face with another person is beyond me.

Except you didn't "deposit" any check. You bought a pair of socks, and you're acting like you own the business now.

 

TFP is a GAME dev studio... next time you want to complain about not having hard cut-off dates or shareholder reports, I suggest you do it with the Microsoft customers department, or with any other "regular" business.

 

Also, being professional, and being serious are not necessarily the same. "It's done when it's done" is perfectly fine for a dev studio which doesn't have a publisher breathing down their necks. They chose to have this kind of freedom so that they could take their time to create their own dream game (Joel's and Rick's words).

[archergod]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

There has been no A21 video footage yet for anything. You haven't missed anything yet.

Can we get just that part .. if not "Will reveal when time come thing" just curious now new water looks..

26 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Point is imagine any other business using that line. How would it make you feel?
Imagine depositing a check and when asked at what time will the funds be available they said “When it’s done”. Personally I’d be pretty @%$#ed off that is literally the worst answer to a question.

Why the pimps spout this term when you know you’d never use it in nearly any other context or even face to face with another person is beyond me.

I have same issue with TFP at start, but slowly I realize they are enjoying development and game themselves. they love this game. And with that Passion it is understandable they do not have hard deadline for users. Also the game they are developing has its own challenge with provided hardware they are not easy to solve. So it is not possible to always remain true to deadline. It is more of R&D stuff then commercial HR Payroll/Ecommerce website development. 

 

Trust the team they are doing what they can to release soon. Also it is good they do not have those hard deadline, otherwise I won't get 5 different game in 5 different version. I am happy that I play this game, more happy that I see how complex software are developed.

[mstdv inc]

42 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Point is imagine any other business using that line. How would it make you feel?
Imagine depositing a check and when asked at what time will the funds be available they said “When it’s done”. Personally I’d be pretty @%$#ed off that is literally the worst answer to a question.

Why the pimps spout this term when you know you’d never use it in nearly any other context or even face to face with another person is beyond me.

The bottom line is that not you, not me, not any other player are not employers for the TFP, so we have no right to demand any deadlines.In steam, we made a deal - money in exchange for the game, we also agreed that the game is in development and the content may change.No other agreements were concluded.Your wording about the receipt and the due date is not correct in this situation.

Edited November 17, 2022 by mstdv inc (see edit history)

[mandeglor]

Perhaps a vague approach would help control anxiety. For example, they might say something like "we think it may be ready before the end of this year." This will imply that it is possible, that it won't be long, even if it comes out later due to unforeseen events, at least there are possibilities. However, if they already know that it won't be possible, something like "In 2023" will help to calm things down and assume that there is still a while to go.

[Cazmyr]

Hello all, I hope everyone is doing well.

 

I have to say that I am excited at the possibility of hidden wires. If that is not what the clue meant, then that is cool, but I LOVE the idea of hiding them. I build extra floors into my basses to contain the wiring, so that when you are on the living or working levels you can't see them. I have an issue....I know. lol

 

Secondly about this current conversation. I am in the camp that TFP do not owe us anything, we are not entitled to anything. Sometimes entitlement is justified. When you deposit money into a bank, you are entitled to see that money in your account balance. But in this case, as people have been saying, in no way are TFP obligated to answer to us. 

Lastly, one of the reasons TFP use the "it is done when it is done" instead of giving a date of possibility, is that this community will take that as biblical truth and attempt to hold them to account for it.  It happens every time a date is even whispered as a possibly, maybe, has a chance to be. It happened with Rick and the interview. He said that A22 could be in the spring, so people in this thread started interpreting that as to when A21 will be out. 

 

We are lucky to have a forum like this at all. To have company owners and game developers that actually talk to the community and listen to us. Do not mistake that for an obligation on their part to answer to us. 

[Gamida]

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Did you hear of any tentative date (or week/month) when The Fun Pimps could start releasing more info about upcoming content?

We're starving here and simply words don't cut it anymore... we need pictures, videos, dev streams! 

 

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

TFP is a GAME dev studio... next time you want to complain about not having hard cut-off dates or shareholder reports, I suggest you do it with the Microsoft customers department, or with any other "regular" business.

 

Also, being professional, and being serious are not necessarily the same. "It's done when it's done" is perfectly fine for a dev studio which doesn't have a publisher breathing down their necks. They chose to have this kind of freedom so that they could take their time to create their own dream game (Joel's and Rick's words).

 

 

Little bit of contradictory posts there isn't it

See, we are all subject to the itch of information.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Point is imagine any other business using that line. How would it make you feel?
Imagine depositing a check and when asked at what time will the funds be available they said “When it’s done”. Personally I’d be pretty @%$#ed off that is literally the worst answer to a question.

Why the pimps spout this term when you know you’d never use it in nearly any other context or even face to face with another person is beyond me.

 

Noted for whenever we decide to branch out into Banking.

[Fanatical_Meat]

3 hours ago, archergod said:

Can we get just that part .. if not "Will reveal when time come thing" just curious now new water looks..

I have same issue with TFP at start, but slowly I realize they are enjoying development and game themselves. they love this game. And with that Passion it is understandable they do not have hard deadline for users. Also the game they are developing has its own challenge with provided hardware they are not easy to solve. So it is not possible to always remain true to deadline. It is more of R&D stuff then commercial HR Payroll/Ecommerce website development. 

 

Trust the team they are doing what they can to release soon. Also it is good they do not have those hard deadline, otherwise I won't get 5 different game in 5 different version. I am happy that I play this game, more happy that I see how complex software are developed.

Don’t mistake me I’m not complaint about the slow pace. I’m saying “When it’s done” is a @%$# answer. As I said truth is always the best answer.

2 hours ago, mstdv inc said:

The bottom line is that not you, not me, not any other player are not employers for the TFP, so we have no right to demand any deadlines.In steam, we made a deal - money in exchange for the game, we also agreed that the game is in development and the content may change.No other agreements were concluded.Your wording about the receipt and the due date is not correct in this situation.

There’s no demand. A question gets asked and an answer should be given.

”When it’s done” is not an answer it is designed to avoid the question.