Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Rince]

On 7/5/2023 at 8:40 AM, meganoth said:

 

It is possible that much of that imbalance is because of DA.

 

This is only my observation but in our group we have a player investing heavily in lucky looter, which resulted in no measurable difference at all. And two people with 1 and 3 points in DA and even with only 1 point there were (affordable) iron and steel level items available. Either they should not be easily affordable or they should not be offered at all at that quality, even with DA investment. 

 

Oh, and I agree with Saltychipmunk that trader rewards are just as problematic or more.

 

 

With one point in DA and zero in LL in my case the progression felt nice, slow but steady and while a few times I got some lucky item, crafting was the main source of my stuff.

 

The traders sounds like a tough cookie to balance. Hope they manage to find a sweet spot.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, icehot said:

During experimental I got to day 40 or so I think with b313 - and I was buying stuff and crafting stuff.  In single player it does seem ok, not perfect, but not far off either, like some people are saying it's a major issue.  I think it's more of a tweak than anything major, at least for single player.  I have no idea how you could stop people teaming up in MP, and just churning out 20 quests per day, that's no wonder the traders are showing them good stuff early on in that case.

 

Nobody wants to stop people teaming up, but there is enough incentive to team up, for example time savings (faster clear, less driving back to trader inbetween), shared xp, safety in numbers.

 

I would distribute items and dukes from the quest reward into the poi loot chests. This would mean no change for single player (you would get out the same as now), but groups would get less for a single quest. Also quest rewards should not get better with tier but follow the same pattern as the loot, i.e. the normal loot stage should be used like when opening containers in the POI.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

11 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Also quest rewards should not get better with tier but follow the same pattern as the loot, i.e. the normal loot stage should be used like when opening containers in the POI.

If all quest rewards are based on the lootstage, you have the problem that you don't get a better reward for a T5 quest than for a T1 quest. So why spend time and ammunition on a T5 quest?

 

[icehot]

15 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

If all quest rewards are based on the lootstage, you have the problem that you don't get a better reward for a T5 quest than for a T1 quest. So why spend time and ammunition on a T5 quest?

 

 

Yeah this, so everyone will just do T1 quests all the time cos they're easy, whereas T5 quests you don't really get enough ammo back from what you spend out on already.  I think making each tier of quest longer than what it is would be a good start.

 

But to go with what meganoth says, but in a slightly different way.  You could distribute the trader stage points, much like they do with the party XP distribution, so that each player receives a share of that total to increase the trader stage - that would slow it down for multiplayer, and also not let single player be so badly nerfed.

[Slingblade2040]

Can loot bundles please be removed from quest and loot tables? They give ridiculous amounts of ammo, killed off any reason to craft traps or turrets and appear often enough that it's made the trap magazines pointless.

 

Also stop having the traders hand out such OP gear for quest rewards. Just make them give us parts so we actually have an incentive to craft.

 

It's crazy how the rewards easily outpace the crafting skills. 

[meilodasreh]

...but...

A21 Official Release Notes | 7 Days to Die

 

...yeah whatever, TFP are known to be overly optimistic sometimes. 😀

And I guess we all agree quest rewards tend to be not-that-ensured-to-be appropriately balanced,

regardless of that some players think it isn't that bad, whilst others call it a complete misfit.

 

 

[Survager]

It's you when you demand a good quest reward from a trader 😁
 

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

If all quest rewards are based on the lootstage, you have the problem that you don't get a better reward for a T5 quest than for a T1 quest. So why spend time and ammunition on a T5 quest?

 

 

I was talking about the quality of the weapons and armor given out, if that wasn't clear. The total or maximal sum of what you get as quest reward can still be determined by the tier of the POI.

 

That could even mean that the other choices for the reward far outweigh the value of the gun you get offered. If you specced into that gun and it is 1-3 quality steps better than the one you have then you usually don't care what a trader would pay for it.

 

If you don't need that gun you would have other options more valuable and either take one because you want the items (stacks of ammo for example) or take the one with the highest value (to sell it immediately) in which case you don't care at all what the value is of all the other items you could select.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RhinoW]

2 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Can loot bundles please be removed from quest and loot tables? They give ridiculous amounts of ammo, killed off any reason to craft traps or turrets and appear often enough that it's made the trap magazines pointless.

 

Also stop having the traders hand out such OP gear for quest rewards. Just make them give us parts so we actually have an incentive to craft.

 

It's crazy how the rewards easily outpace the crafting skills. 

 

Do you play with 300% XP multiplier? Because I do (and 300% block damage) and I noticed that crafting gets thrown back because of how quickly I rise on gamestage. It's a double edged sword, as radiateds and wights are found very early on, but at the same time, the quest rewards and loot are insane. Since the physical time you spend looting gets overshadowed by the gamestage, you are not able to pick up enough magazines to "battle" the loot you are already able to get.

 

So for loot quality, that's my own "fault". But I do agree 100% with you that ammo is just ridiculous, and it has been ridiculous since A17. Never have I ever stockpiled on so much ammo and used it so needlessly with more to spare. And it was like that since day 1, loot a few buildings and raid a shotgun messiah, and you're already reaching more ammo than you need to use early on, with the ability to actually use that ammo with the pipe weaponry.

 

However, spending ammo is kinda required, since zombie attack hitboxes and reactions are still buggy, and difficulty comes in the form of bullet sponges and zombie numbers, so run and gun is kind of mandatory. And I'd wager that if I played with no multipliers, and had a steady gamestage, I would have even more ammo to spare, because I wouldnt be facing high tier zombies so early on.

 

I'll also add explosives and molotovs to the list, as crafting a molotov is wasting fuel, while a quick t1 quest has a high chance to give you 10 for a reward as well as pipebombs and contact grenades.

 

I'm not complaining though, as the game is quite fun like this, but the fun comes in the form of mowing down big hordes of enemies on bloodmoon, rather than the rest of the game. Clearing PoIs becomes a boring task with very little risk, unless its one of those BS triggers that has been talked about. I'm also going to show my dislike for those end dungeon loot crates that completley destroyed the meaning of scavenging.

[the_envenom]

Love the new update, even though I know you're on break, just a small request for next update/alpha. Can you add actual eating animations, anything I eat, blueberry pie, pumpkin pie, sham, can of peas, anything, it's meat in the eating animation always!!!
Same for drinks!! Exact same glass jar.....

 

[Teezer]

37 minutes ago, the_envenom said:

Love the new update, even though I know you're on break, just a small request for next update/alpha. Can you add actual eating animations, anything I eat, blueberry pie, pumpkin pie, sham, can of peas, anything, it's meat in the eating animation always!!!
Same for drinks!! Exact same glass jar.....

 

I've read somewhere that A22 will focus on animation somehow. So finger crossed we will have decent eating animation... and sound design

[Thaledwyn]

Is it intended to also throw around your mates when hitting a zombie with a charged hit and a repulsor mod?!

 

Not sure if this was already possible in A20, but in A21 it is 🙂

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Thaledwyn (see edit history)

[the_envenom]

17 minutes ago, Teezer said:

I've read somewhere that A22 will focus on animation somehow. So finger crossed we will have decent eating animation... and sound design

Thanks for telling me about this! 😃😎

[unholyjoe]

6 minutes ago, Thaledwyn said:

Is it intended to also throw around your mates when hitting a zombie with a charged hit and a repulsor mod?!

already reported and fixed in a22.

 

i actually liked it that way... tired of telling team mates to get out of my way. ooops

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, unholyjoe said:

already reported and fixed in a22.

 

i actually liked it that way... tired of telling team mates to get out of my way. ooops

 

Speaking of that, sometimes you can walk through another person and sometimes you can't.  It would be nice if you always can.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Exxodous]

1 hour ago, unholyjoe said:

already reported and fixed in a22.

 

i actually liked it that way... tired of telling team mates to get out of my way. ooops

 

The fix wont come until A22?? kinda figured we would see an A21.1 or something. The wife is going to be @%$#ed if I keep throwing her around the room for another year and a half lol.

[Slingblade2040]

4 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

Do you play with 300% XP multiplier? Because I do (and 300% block damage) and I noticed that crafting gets thrown back because of how quickly I rise on gamestage. It's a double edged sword, as radiateds and wights are found very early on, but at the same time, the quest rewards and loot are insane. Since the physical time you spend looting gets overshadowed by the gamestage, you are not able to pick up enough magazines to "battle" the loot you are already able to get.

 

So for loot quality, that's my own "fault". But I do agree 100% with you that ammo is just ridiculous, and it has been ridiculous since A17. Never have I ever stockpiled on so much ammo and used it so needlessly with more to spare. And it was like that since day 1, loot a few buildings and raid a shotgun messiah, and you're already reaching more ammo than you need to use early on, with the ability to actually use that ammo with the pipe weaponry.

 

However, spending ammo is kinda required, since zombie attack hitboxes and reactions are still buggy, and difficulty comes in the form of bullet sponges and zombie numbers, so run and gun is kind of mandatory. And I'd wager that if I played with no multipliers, and had a steady gamestage, I would have even more ammo to spare, because I wouldnt be facing high tier zombies so early on.

 

I'll also add explosives and molotovs to the list, as crafting a molotov is wasting fuel, while a quick t1 quest has a high chance to give you 10 for a reward as well as pipebombs and contact grenades.

 

I'm not complaining though, as the game is quite fun like this, but the fun comes in the form of mowing down big hordes of enemies on bloodmoon, rather than the rest of the game. Clearing PoIs becomes a boring task with very little risk, unless its one of those BS triggers that has been talked about. I'm also going to show my dislike for those end dungeon loot crates that completley destroyed the meaning of scavenging.

Nope all defaults at 100%. Most of those auto turret bundles give like 150 or 300 9mm ammo or a full stack of shotgun ammo and like 2 of each turret. Not to mention blade trap bundle gives like what 10 blade traps?

[unholyjoe]

18 minutes ago, Exxodous said:

The fix wont come until A22?? kinda figured we would see an A21.1 or something. The wife is going to be @%$#ed if I keep throwing her around the room for another year and a half lol.

you should be playing on a safer server (where youre wife isnt) and in a different room of the house (especially one with a couch for you to sleep on) leave the dog box alone fido needs his space.

[Arma Rex]

3 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

already reported and fixed in a22.

 

i actually liked it that way... tired of telling team mates to get out of my way. ooops

 

Nice to hear A22 is already in development. Hopefully we'll see a shorter release cycle.

[Old Crow]

4 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

already reported and fixed in a22.

 

i actually liked it that way... tired of telling team mates to get out of my way. ooops

 

 

Noooooooooooo I want to keep yeeting my buddy in A22.

[GoofMcGee]

7 hours ago, the_envenom said:

Love the new update, even though I know you're on break, just a small request for next update/alpha. Can you add actual eating animations, anything I eat, blueberry pie, pumpkin pie, sham, can of peas, anything, it's meat in the eating animation always!!!
Same for drinks!! Exact same glass jar.....

 

Nah, that's your food wallet.  You store all your food in there.  Silly.  Sheesh.

[NekoPawtato]

Found a neat book today, The Fireman's Spear Hunter 😆, sounds like an interesting read

Edited July 7, 2023 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

37 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

Found a neat book today, The Fireman's Spear Hunter 😆, sounds like an interesting read

 

Didn't you know? Firemen fight fires with spears.

[Sephiroth87xz]

22 hours ago, icehot said:

 

I don't think this is that far unbalanced (maybe a little), like maybe you could spend a bit longer in each tier perhaps to drag the game out a bit longer...  But firstly I'd expect a trader to have better stuff than I can make myself, other people are selling to him and has other suppliers - if you can just make it all, why bother questing or using your dukes for anything?  Imho you want them to be ahead of the curve.

 

Secondly, after 2 or 3 weeks, I think most players would expect to have some decent weapons by that amount of time - that's like 20 to 30 hours of gameplay, how long do you want it to last before you start getting decent stuff?

 

The problem is the trader have better thing than i can craft, in weapons or tools i don't even have points in skills or even learned from magazine.

 

You can find quality 5 iron spear, without invest skill points or without learn magazine.

 

All time invested on searching magazine for knife and points invested in agility and the perk of knife, was useless, the iron spear from trader was better.

 

So why use skill tree and magazine when trader let you bypass all?

 

Is a big unbalanced progression problem, because let you skip entire main parts of the game.

 

A survival game of this type isn't something you should finish in less of few hours.

 

And if Developers want players to reach this point in few hours then magazine system is bad balanced because is more slow.

 

Considered the magazine system is their actual line of progression, where a developers said they don't want tiers to overlaps, is more probable traders/quests/loot to have problem of balance progression, because tiers not only overlap, but players can easily skip quality/tiers totally.

 

Developers should add a sort of system(probably "internal") to have an effect similar of magazine have on crafting progression, but applied to traders/quests/loot.

 

The actual one not work and create balance problem Developers have fixed with magazine system for crafting.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Sephiroth87xz (see edit history)

[icehot]

33 minutes ago, Sephiroth87xz said:

 

The problem is the trader have better thing than i can craft, in weapons or tools i don't even have points in skills or even learned from magazine.

 

You can find quality 5 iron spear, without invest skill points or without learn magazine.

 

All time invested on searching magazine for knife and points invested in agility and the perk of knife, was useless, the iron spear from trader was better.

 

So why use skill tree and magazine when trader let you bypass all?

 

Is a big unbalanced progression problem, because let you skip entire main parts of the game.

 

A survival game of this type isn't something you should finish in less of few hours.

 

And if Developers want players to reach this point in few hours then magazine system is bad balanced because is more slow.

 

Considered the magazine system is their actual line of progression, where a developers said they don't want tiers to overlaps, is more probable traders/quests/loot to have problem of balance progression, because tiers not only overlap, but players can easily skip quality/tiers totally.

 

Developers should add a sort of system(probably "internal") to have an effect similar of magazine have on crafting progression, but applied to traders/quests/loot.

 

The actual one not work and create balance problem Developers have fixed with magazine system for crafting.

 

 

From the way you've said this, you make it sound like you expect the trader to ONLY have items for your perk tree - like finding an iron spear made all your points in agility worthless, why does it?  You decided you wanted to use knives, not spears, so who cares what spear he has?  It hasn't stopped you aiming to be able to craft knives.

 

Also if the trader only has stuff from your perks, to around the level of what you can craft, then there's zero point in traders - why would you bother with them?  You'd just craft the items because it's cheaper to do that than going out of your way to quest and earn money to get decent stuff.

 

I've just spent the past two hours playing to day 17, in the intellect tree, and the trader has had some ok stuff, but nothing that's made me want to jump trees, I've just ignored those items because I'm focussing on the intellect style.  Rewards and items are also not that amazing that I'm seeing either.

 

I don't see this as a big problem in the slightest, I've not been skipping parts of the game, I've been doing various bits of crafting, certain mods, some weapons, some armour etc.  I've been looting for some stuff, and buying other things - I've been basing my decisions on my character, and where I can currently get the best items.  Sometimes that's been crafting, other times it's been looting, other times it's been quest rewards, and other times that's been buying from the trader.  I don't see that as unbalanced, as I've been doing all of it.  And I still don't think I have anything really special or anywhere near end game.  He's had a steel club for sale recently, but why would I pick that when I'm playing for the stun baton, and all my skills are in that?

 

And how do you know the magazine system is the full intended line of progression in terms of time?  You are making an assumption there.  What if it's exactly what I'm doing?,  Where I'm using a mixture of different parts of the game, to get whatever I need/want at that particular time.  I've only just got onto iron tools btw, which I think is reasonable, one I bought, one was a quest reward, and the other one I crafted.