A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Gobarg]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Never say never. Backpack loot is way better in A20

 

A big problem in my opinion. Zombies shouldn't award xp or loot in my opinion. Those rewards artificially incentivize us to seek out zombies and kill them and in a true zombie apocolypse, avoiding should be just as rewarding as killing.

I'm sorry Roland but has anyone pointed out to you the fact that Zombies aren't real mate?

You do know it's a game and stuff right?

[Renathras]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Never say never. Backpack loot is way better in A20

 

A big problem in my opinion. Zombies shouldn't award xp or loot in my opinion. Those rewards artificially incentivize us to seek out zombies and kill them and in a true zombie apocolypse, avoiding should be just as rewarding as killing.

I disagree.

For the SAKE OF ARGUMENT, in a general zombie apocalypse scenario, there would not be "horde nights".  Horde nights require a kind of "hive mind" system OR some external system like a lunar cycle (28 days) or something that plays on individual zombies causing them to act in concert.  Neither of these are likely in most zombie apocalypse scenario.  The first isn't likely because, in a biological scenario, the zombies are not physically linked and we have no way to scientifically support telepathy to coordinate actions.  (NOTE: If we have a future where Humans commonly get some kind of technological implants with radio/remote/cell/wi-fi send and receive functionality, this changes...but 7DTD doesn't seem to be set in such a world.)  The latter because there aren't a lot of biological processes that work that way across scales of individuals other than things like mating/spawning seasons for animals, and there's no real reason to think zombies would function based on such instincts.  Even if they somehow used the "primitive part" of the Human brain, such that the zombies would act like pre-historic Humans when instinct was a larger portion of our thought process than reason, which has been flipped in modern Humans, it's not clear why this would cause a zombie horde attack action, especially since there are other things in the world they could more easily horde on, like animals.

So, given this, the idea of building a defensive base is what is actually most absurd in 7DTD.

On the other hand, in a real life zombie apocalypse, procuring food and water would be the main things that survivors would be doing.  This includes gardening and hunting, but also looting cities and any zombies you DO happen to kill.  Granted, most zombies wouldn't carry anything USEFUL with them.  Their clothing would likely be damaged because of the lack of pain receptor response (so they would routinely snag and rip themselves and their clothing on things) other than boots/shoes or special armor/clothing (like BDUs or fireman bunker gear, which are resistant to damage from snagging/ripping/tearing), with boots, especially, being something you could salvage (if they were the right size or close enough...)

[EDIT: That is to say, they'd just have on them whatever they had on them when the infection got to 100%, and for most people that were turned relatively early in the whole event, this would be MOSTLY the kinds of random brick-a-brack that we all carry in our pockets all the time, like wallet, keys, and cell phone; none of which are particularly useful as loot.  As the event went on, you'd find more people with knives, guns, hatchets, pipe wrenches, crowbars, etc, as people began to travel with backpacks and weapons/supplies as the zombie apocalypse wore on and people became the first generation of survivors.  As THOSE people turned, their loot would arguably be better once they were in zombie form.  :ENDEDIT]

Also anything in their pockets, but this is generally not going to be much other than maybe a wallet with some cash and cards, and maybe keys/pocket knives, and the rare gun or bullets from people who had concealed carry licenses or were defending their homes when they became infected...though more bullets and less guns, since they'd probably have been USING their gun when they became infected and dropped it when they were finally overcome - if they were - by the zombies.  Arguably if they survived the attack but were infected, the infection takes long enough they might have holstered their pistol and it's simply still on them once they completely become a zombie.

...which kind of brings another question: When you're infected, it's presumed you turn at 100%, but when you're defeated in battle by zombies, they just...eat you.  Meaning there's no body left to turn.

.

In any case, I agree that avoiding HORDES of zombies makes sense, but individual zombies could be picked off relatively easily.  The thing is, most zombies wouldn't have very much OF VALUE to a survivor anyway.  But it makes sense to search the bodies of the ones you kill for what little loot they have because some things like knives or bullets would have a lot of potential worth to a survivor.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Renathras
Marked in the post (see edit history)

[Renathras]

14 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

Loot is random in the shiny yellow bags as well, therefore relatively hard to judge. Maybe a small buff to that loot might be beneficial, but my friends and I still try to be the first at such a bag and even have a gentlemans agreement that whoever kills the zombie has first right to it, so it can't be as bad as the loot in backpacks that is always atrocious.

 

PS: Checked the XML whether I'm right with that last impression about loot bags and now I know for a fact that backpack loot can't hold a candle to the yellow zombie bags. And I'll never loot backpacks again 😉

Lots of things here.  I guess that's kind of my overall point on balance, though, that people still use different weapon types based on their preferences/perks.  People use "arguably" inferior weapons based on their preferences.  For instance, I tend towards Agility or Fortitude builds, and use machetes or knuckles, while my friends go almost exclusively for clubs/hammers and Strength builds as far as weapon choices.  None of us use stun batons, even with Intellect builds, because it just feels a lot crappier as a weapon than any of the others to us, collectively.  Does that mean stun batons are bad?  Probably not, but it means people aren't min-maxing in that way, and so balance need not function in that way.  And as you note, even when the weapon has such advantages (machete), there are people that will still avoid them or only use them grudgingly, indicating preference, rather than balance, is the key in what weapons people chose.  As I said before, I'll sometimes spec bladed weapons and stick with the hunting knife over the machete because I find the combat with it, especially the power attack, far better than the machete's.

I personally like fireman axes because of being a volunteer fireman, but that's just me. 

On the loot in houses: As you correctly surmised, I meant from the zombies, not the cupboards.  It's possible to sneak through a lot of POIs waking few or even no zombies.  So loot "behind" zombies isn't really a good "you're getting that instead of this, but they're equivalent", since it still makes the zombies kind of just "there" "in the way".  And sometimes, not even that when you factor in buildings you can go straight to the loot room, loot it, and leave, ignoring all the zombies entirely while getting the bulk of the useful loot.  I should also note the "loot is balanced in houses for the number of zombies there" argument doesn't apply to zombies killed out in the field/wilds, unless they only spawn near loot containers like sports bags, and the loot in those bags was also balanced upward to account for the wandering hordes and such?

I personally do find the "zombie farming" factories of automated weapon systems people would use obnoxious, though.  I've never played that way personally, as I prefer going out to cities and such and finding loot.  I remember people doing that in Minecraft with spawners, too.  I get why people WOULD do that...but it just seems cheesy and not compelling to me as a playstyle, personally.

As an aside: I do kind of dislike "every structure is a dungeon".  I liked some of the old houses before everything became a dungeon as they seemed far more realistic to what you'd find in a zombie apocalypse where not EVERYONE would have turned their house into a fortress.  Maybe the people in Arizona are just...exceptionally militant/militia/preppers, though?  XD

As for the 25th zombie - the problem is the loot bag dropping is still random.  Meaning you could kill 25 zombies - or 100 - and as far as I'm aware there's no hardcoded rule in the game's programming that insists that a loot bag WILL drop after X kills.  So there's no guarantee there to make that valid.  Though I am curious what you meant by the backpacks.  You mean the sports bag type ones?  Those tend to have (potentially) decent loot.  Or, at least, they used to.  They were often one of the earliest places you would find a pistol in the game, as well as cans, water, bullets, and various melee weapons and tools - all told, pretty good loot, and better than what the yellow bags give.

Though I am heartened to hear the yellow bags will be better in Alpha 20.

Personally, I avoid unnecessary fights, which is why when I HAVE to fight, I like getting something from it to make it worth my while.  And I also feel the old system was just more...for lack of a better word "realistic"...than the random backpack model.

I'm not sure what the best answer is, I just know I personally don't like the feel and workings of the yellow loot pack.  Maybe I can't put it into words well, though...?  It just...I dunno, FEELS wrong somehow?

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Gobarg said:

I'm sorry Roland but has anyone pointed out to you the fact that Zombies aren't real mate?

You do know it's a game and stuff right?

 

Psst Gobarg....you need to give this talk to @Renathras....

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Will spikes and barber wire  get new shapes too ?

Do whatever you want, but if your barber is using "wires", I suggest you to change barber... 

[Gobarg]

43 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Psst Gobarg....you need to give this talk to @Renathras....

If you smile and nod your head every now and again we should be right in a few days I reckon mate.

 

I find it fascinating that a person's particular playstyle really affects how they see the balance of the game though.

Just goes to show that there are a lot of ways to play this game and they are all in fact the RIGHT way... strange huh?

Must be a fairly good game on the whole then I reckon

 

[hotpoon]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Never say never. Backpack loot is way better in A20

 

A big problem in my opinion. Zombies shouldn't award xp or loot in my opinion. Those rewards artificially incentivize us to seek out zombies and kill them and in a true zombie apocolypse, avoiding should be just as rewarding as killing.

In a real life zombie apocalypse flies would lay eggs on them and maggots would eat all the connective tissue, so all the zombies would be reduced to a pile of stationary bones within a few days ... unless ... unless the flies turned into zombies! Ermagerd.  Then you'd find me crying in a cupboard rocking back and forth in the foetal position. lol

[Omnimetatron]

Huh, this game is still in development. Fancy that.

[Fanatical_Meat]

3 hours ago, Omnimetatron said:

Huh, this game is still in development. Fancy that.

 

Yup sure is and it has been a great time.

I assume you are waiting for it to be done correct?

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

Lots of things here.  I guess that's kind of my overall point on balance, though, that people still use different weapon types based on their preferences/perks.  People use "arguably" inferior weapons based on their preferences.  For instance, I tend towards Agility or Fortitude builds, and use machetes or knuckles, while my friends go almost exclusively for clubs/hammers and Strength builds as far as weapon choices.  None of us use stun batons, even with Intellect builds, because it just feels a lot crappier as a weapon than any of the others to us, collectively.  Does that mean stun batons are bad?  Probably not, but it means people aren't min-maxing in that way, and so balance need not function in that way.  And as you note, even when the weapon has such advantages (machete), there are people that will still avoid them or only use them grudgingly, indicating preference, rather than balance, is the key in what weapons people chose.  As I said before, I'll sometimes spec bladed weapons and stick with the hunting knife over the machete because I find the combat with it, especially the power attack, far better than the machete's.

I personally like fireman axes because of being a volunteer fireman, but that's just me. 

 

There is no question that preferences, play styles and wrong perception of the quality of a weapon all have an influence on the individual player whether he prefers specific weapons or how he sees the balance from his view. A game designer can only make make sure that either the balance is somewhat correct without taking personal likes into account or sample what the average player will do and balance that.. Whatever TFP is doing they found the axe too good in past alphas when they probably did not value the saving of one slot as high as it actually is.

 

But I know they try to balance the attributes as a whole. With a small twist: It seems they want strength to be a sort of beginners atrribute so it is already balanced to be stronger than the others (or at least easier to play). Also Strength already has two "first class" melee weapons and if there were a third on their level that would double as wood cutter and essential door/container opener? Well, that is what I would call an obvious example of everyone's wet dream of an OP melee weapon that would make all others nearly obsolete. In an attribute tree that already seems OP

 

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

On the loot in houses: As you correctly surmised, I meant from the zombies, not the cupboards.  It's possible to sneak through a lot of POIs waking few or even no zombies.  So loot "behind" zombies isn't really a good "you're getting that instead of this, but they're equivalent", since it still makes the zombies kind of just "there" "in the way".  And sometimes, not even that when you factor in buildings you can go straight to the loot room, loot it, and leave, ignoring all the zombies entirely while getting the bulk of the useful loot.  I should also note the "loot is balanced in houses for the number of zombies there" argument doesn't apply to zombies killed out in the field/wilds, unless they only spawn near loot containers like sports bags, and the loot in those bags was also balanced upward to account for the wandering hordes and such?

 

A few points: Like Roland said but wrongly implied it was because of realism, it would be great if stealthing without killing were a viable option for players. It practically isn't really because a player misses out on a large part of the XP, eventually making the games progress take too long. Yes, a player stealthing through would not miss out on loot, but he also takes great risks in the event zombies wake up, because the way back out is not cleared. Now a true stealth play is an optional part of the game, this is just a reason why people might wish for no XP on zombies.

 

Your distinction that loot behind the zombie is something different because you could theoretically sneak-loot through the poi is largely irrelevant. Only a player going for agility and stealth to the exclusion of nearly everything else can go that route and as I said above would have the disadvantage of getting no XP (Even if that were not the case I don't see a large part of the player base suddenly going all stealth). Even I, with agility my favourite attribute, have never played an all stealth no kill game and I'm sure you will have a hard time finding such players. Did you ever do it?

 

But lets assume it were a popular playstyle. Then going around a zombie without noticing you is just another variation of handling a zombie aka dealing with the thread of a zombie. So basically a true stealth player gets rewarded with the loot because he handled the zombie, just in a different way, and therefore deserves the loot. Circumventing the loot by going directly to the loot room is a different problem, everyone can do this, with or without stealth. The solution would be to distribute the loot over the POI, but TFP seems not to like that idea, they want a loot room to signify the players success. And they specifically did not want the all the zombies to have the loot because that would simply make going into the POIs unnecessary.

 

By the way, if you think stealthing through POIs is easy and cheesy: There are rooms where the zombies automatically wake up no matter your stealth value.

 

But all of above is really beside the point, you were complaining before about not getting loot, and after I objected to this you now list lots of different ways to get at that loot! Instead of what you should be showing, that you can't get loot if zombies do not have it 😉. You have shown this only for the zombies outside of POIs.

Lets forget that you were specifically speaking about POIs in your initial post, you are correct that you will miss out some loot on those "wilderness" zombies. But this is probably just another reason why zombie loot was reduced so much. While zombie farming with forges was a practice lots of players simply didn't do, almost everyone felt the urge to kill every zombie in the wild for those loot bags. Again an incentive to regard zombies as merely loot bags, but on a smaller scale.

One could argue that that would be ok, the zombies just need to be a danger, but the problem is that zombies in wide open areas in this game will probably always be easier to handle for the player. There is no easy way to make outdoors zombies really dangerous and POIs still managable, at least not without a complete redesign of the game. So removing loot from zombies is on the whole the best option by far.

 

I also forgot another probable reason to remove zombie loot. With that much zombie loot the shooter part of the game felt the dominant genre for the game. There were lots of forum users complaining about the game being a shooter (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that was in A16). And probably the developers felt that as well. Removing the loot simply put the focus again on looting POIs to get stuff and shooting zombies for self-defence instead of letting this be the central

 

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

I personally do find the "zombie farming" factories of automated weapon systems people would use obnoxious, though.  I've never played that way personally, as I prefer going out to cities and such and finding loot.  I remember people doing that in Minecraft with spawners, too.  I get why people WOULD do that...but it just seems cheesy and not compelling to me as a playstyle, personally.

 

For the game designers (TFP) it doesn't matter what you personally do but what large parts of the player base do and they act accordingly. Something that induces many players to kill off large parts of the game and has the potential to make it long term unfun for them has to be countered.

 

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

As an aside: I do kind of dislike "every structure is a dungeon".  I liked some of the old houses before everything became a dungeon as they seemed far more realistic to what you'd find in a zombie apocalypse where not EVERYONE would have turned their house into a fortress.  Maybe the people in Arizona are just...exceptionally militant/militia/preppers, though?  XD

 

A sentiment some people on the forum including me have expressed from time to time. For me the "exactly one way" was the problem not that they are filled with obstacles. And it seems they listened to this because some of the newer POIs now have multiple ways or a more open structure (like the clothes shop for example)

 

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

As for the 25th zombie - the problem is the loot bag dropping is still random.  Meaning you could kill 25 zombies - or 100 - and as far as I'm aware there's no hardcoded rule in the game's programming that insists that a loot bag WILL drop after X kills.  So there's no guarantee there to make that valid.  Though I am curious what you meant by the backpacks.  You mean the sports bag type ones?  Those tend to have (potentially) decent loot.  Or, at least, they used to.  They were often one of the earliest places you would find a pistol in the game, as well as cans, water, bullets, and various melee weapons and tools - all told, pretty good loot, and better than what the yellow bags give.

 

If you don't like random, don't play 7 Days to Die. The zombie loot bag is not essential. It is not different to opening 24 cupboards and finding nothing or just an empty bottle, and in the 25th you find ... nothing 😉, again. In the 26th you might find a blueberry pie and all the 25 cupboards before seem worth it.

Guaranteed finds??? When was that ever in the game (or in any survival game at all) and why do you think you need to be pampered with this?

 

I meant the backpacks you can find behind fake walls for example, but also in the wilderness. The topic is A19 and here is the backpack as far as I could determine (it is the only lootgroup with "backpack" in the name besides special backpacks like the yellow zombie bag:

 

<lootgroup name="backpacks/survival">
        <item group="cupboard" prob="0.7"/>
        <item group="groupWeaponsT0_All" prob="0.1"/>
        <item group="groupApparelClothes" prob="0.12"/>
        <item group="groupArmorT0" prob="0.14"/>
        <item name="meleeToolFlashlight02" prob="0.08"/>
        <item group="survivalMedical" prob="0.1"/>
</lootgroup>

 

As you can see, no pistol (WeaponsT0 is only stone age melee weapons and blunderbuss). Backpacks are okay in the first few days, but don't get better with gamestage (though cupboards have the same problem). They just seem disappointing to me when you take into account that they are often hidden behind false walls and then need more effort to access.

 

Here is the yellow zombie loot bag, for strong zombies there is an even better one:

<!-- EntityLootContainerRegular, rare random drop off regular zombies -->
<lootcontainer id="70" count="1,3" size="6,3" destroy_on_close="false" sound_open="UseActions/open_backpack" sound_close="UseActions/close_backpack" open_time="1" loot_quality_template="qualBaseTemplate">
        <item group="cannedfood" count="1,2" prob="13"/>
        <item name="drinkJarBeer" count="1,3" prob="5"/>
        <item name="drinkJarBoiledWater" count="1,4" prob="10"/>
        <item group="booksAllScaled" prob="6"/>
        <item group="brassResource" prob="6"/>
        <item name="resourceForgedIron" count="2,10" prob="3"/>
        <item name="resourceForgedSteel" count="2,10" prob="3"/>
        <item group="groupToolsTiered" prob="6"/>
        <item group="groupRareToolsTiered" prob="3"/>
        <item group="groupArmorScaled" prob="7"/>
        <item name="armorMiningHelmet" mods="modArmorHelmetLight" mod_chance="1" prob="0.5"/>
        <item group="groupApparelClothes" prob="6"/>
        <item group="warmClothes" prob=".2"/>
        <item group="groupAmmoRegular" count="2" prob="20"/>
        <item group="groupWeaponsAllScaled" prob="10"/>
        <item name="apparelNightvisionGoggles" loot_prob_template="probTemplate1.0"/>
        <item name="casinoCoin" count="200,410" prob="6"/>
        <item name="oldCash" count="150,500" prob="6"/>
        <item name="drugHerbalAntibiotics" count="1,2" prob="1.3"/>
        <item group="rareMedicine" prob="2"/>
        <item name="drugPainkillers" count="1" prob="3"/>
        <item name="drugVitamins" count="1,2" prob="4.5"/>
        <item group="groupTreasureMaps" prob="0.6"/>
        <item group="groupQuestChallenge" prob="0.6"/>
</lootcontainer>

 

Now all the stuff that says tiered or scaled means you will find better stuff in late game, so this loot container "grows" with your advancement. "count=1,3" means you will get on average two picks out of this list. And the list seems to be an almost complete list of useful things in 7D2D with the exception of whole car parts.

 

 

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

Though I am heartened to hear the yellow bags will be better in Alpha 20.

Personally, I avoid unnecessary fights, which is why when I HAVE to fight, I like getting something from it to make it worth my while.  And I also feel the old system was just more...for lack of a better word "realistic"...than the random backpack model.

 

The principal reward of a fight in a survival game is that you survived. The "optional" reward of loot was taken away exactly because it became somewhat of too much a reason to take on fights, not for you but for a large part of the player base.   

 

9 hours ago, Renathras said:

I'm not sure what the best answer is, I just know I personally don't like the feel and workings of the yellow loot pack.  Maybe I can't put it into words well, though...?  It just...I dunno, FEELS wrong somehow?

 

7D2D is a genre mix. Most people playing it will slightly or even strongly prefer some genre in that mix more than others and hope for it to steer a bit more in that direction. Can't be avoided. With luck A20 will feel better for you and if not there are mods to make it conform more to your tastes.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

42 minutes ago, meganoth said:

A few points: Like Roland said but wrongly implied it was because of realism

 

Since I obviously was unclear in my thoughts since three people now have attributed my point to some call for realism let me clarify what I was talking about. I was not trying to imply that there ever could be a real zombie apocalypse. What I meant is that rewards like loot and xp attach an artificial incentive that disproportionately emphasizes attacking and killing. Rather than comparing it to some imagined reality let me compare it to the feel and setting of The Walking Dead as well as many other zombie shows. In those other depictions the first rule is survival by any means-- even running away. Nobody farms zombies or takes unnecessary risks to confront and kill large numbers of them. Rick and company never lit up with excitement when confronted by a herd imagining how many levels they could increase or what possible loot they might find. A herd was always to be avoided or even distracted and turned away. There might be an odd crazy character who goes actively hunting zombies or a group might actively clear zombies out of a building they want to inhabit but normally avoiding and sneaking are more viable and safer strategies than direct attacks.

 

But, thanks to XP (and back when we had loot that too) we have a very opposite feel in this game. Its not bad, per se, but it does make it difficult to play the game in the same way that survival is depicted on The Walking Dead since the humans never receive any reward other than continuing to survive when they kill a zombie or a thousand. Now, I understand that a video game is a different medium than a television show and what makes for poignant and gripping viewing could very well translate to boring and uneventful gameplay. But I can say that when I modded my game so that xp was a function of time survived period and actions the player took in the game were purely to meet the demands of survival and not also to earn gamey rewards, the whole feel of playing was different. I won't claim that it was better because I've played both vanilla and 0XP and had fun with both-- and I haven't gone back and updated it since A18.

 

All I am saying is that loot on zombies and xp on zombies changes drastically how we see them and interact with them into a much more video gamey manner. Well...this is a video game after all. It isn't real. I know that. Perhaps I'll get the assistance I need and get 0XP updated for A20.

[Roland]

6 hours ago, Omnimetatron said:

Huh, this game is still in development. Fancy that.

 

Huh, you still feel compelled to check in from time to time. Fancy that.

[Laz Man]

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Since I obviously was unclear in my thoughts since three people now have attributed my point to some call for realism let me clarify what I was talking about. I was not trying to imply that there ever could be a real zombie apocalypse. What I meant is that rewards like loot and xp attach an artificial incentive that disproportionately emphasizes attacking and killing. Rather than comparing it to some imagined reality let me compare it to the feel and setting of The Walking Dead as well as many other zombie shows. In those other depictions the first rule is survival by any means-- even running away. Nobody farms zombies or takes unnecessary risks to confront and kill large numbers of them. Rick and company never lit up with excitement when confronted by a herd imagining how many levels they could increase or what possible loot they might find. A herd was always to be avoided or even distracted and turned away. There might be an odd crazy character who goes actively hunting zombies or a group might actively clear zombies out of a building they want to inhabit but normally avoiding and sneaking are more viable and safer strategies than direct attacks.

 

But, thanks to XP (and back when we had loot that too) we have a very opposite feel in this game. Its not bad, per se, but it does make it difficult to play the game in the same way that survival is depicted on The Walking Dead since the humans never receive any reward other than continuing to survive when they kill a zombie or a thousand. Now, I understand that a video game is a different medium than a television show and what makes for poignant and gripping viewing could very well translate to boring and uneventful gameplay. But I can say that when I modded my game so that xp was a function of time survived period and actions the player took in the game were purely to meet the demands of survival and not also to earn gamey rewards, the whole feel of playing was different. I won't claim that it was better because I've played both vanilla and 0XP and had fun with both-- and I haven't gone back and updated it since A18.

 

All I am saying is that loot on zombies and xp on zombies changes drastically how we see them and interact with them into a much more video gamey manner. Well...this is a video game after all. It isn't real. I know that. Perhaps I'll get the assistance I need and get 0XP updated for A20.

 

I get you Roland, thanks for the insight into the origin of your 0xp mod.  I can see how your mod brings the experience closer to being in a show like TWD.  Sounds fun to me.

 

If I ever have time for it, I would love to play a perma death version of your mod along with a few others.

[crazywildfire]

18 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

XD nah it's looks so good , nobody can sit on you if you have wires everywhere ^^

OMG could you show us newstand? Pleaseeee this soo important for me 

 

 

Imagine something like this. Not as full of goods/supplies. But a zombie spawn is inside and when you get near it wakes up and is able to smash through the side or something. It could have on one side a book/magazine loot or 2 and middle would have like 2 food loot shelves. And the other side have like more book/magazine loot spot. 

 

Someone please make this for this man. Newsstand to him is like you know what to snowdog. Isn't sayin much but sayin just enough ya know 😏

 

 

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, crazywildfire said:

 

 

Imagine something like this. Not as full of goods/supplies. But a zombie spawn is inside and when you get near it wakes up and is able to smash through the side or something. It could have on one side a book/magazine loot or 2 and middle would have like 2 food loot shelves. And the other side have like more book/magazine loot spot. 

 

Someone please make this for this man. Newsstand to him is like you know what to snowdog. Isn't sayin much but sayin just enough ya know 😏

 

 

OMG newsstand with this could be so good ^^

[Adam the Waster]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Huh, you still feel compelled to check in from time to time. Fancy that.

i mean i do that, i have not started my PC in

*checks dust and rats*

a long time. 

[Blake_]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Huh, you still feel compelled to check in from time to time. Fancy that.

  

Sometimes I just laugh at some statements regarding "videogame release". Minecraft is still in alpha as much as 7dtd. It's just that they deemed ok to call it DONE and get 1 big meaningful patch a year like 7dtd. While the main difference is that we are still short on bandits, but that is Gazz's fault for sure.

 

Empyrion: Galactic Survival just released 1.0 a while ago too. Guess what. Still in "alpha" in all but name.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Quoting Madmole: It's done when it's done.

 

Quoting Rick: Seems like my Twitch is desynchronized.

[Omnimetatron]

6 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

 

Yup sure is and it has been a great time.

I assume you are waiting for it to be done correct?

Nah, this is the game that finally made me realise that a game in alpha might change enough to no longer be the game I once enjoyed. I've no problem with that, it is what it is. You guys enjoy your games, I'll enjoy mine. No harm, no foul.

 

Stay safe survivor o/

[Fanatical_Meat]

1 hour ago, Omnimetatron said:

Nah, this is the game that finally made me realise that a game in alpha might change enough to no longer be the game I once enjoyed. I've no problem with that, it is what it is. You guys enjoy your games, I'll enjoy mine. No harm, no foul.

 

Stay safe survivor o/

And that is cool, it has happened to me also.

You now know Early Access isn’t your thing and that is fine.

[Gamida]

7 hours ago, crazywildfire said:

 

 

Imagine something like this. Not as full of goods/supplies. But a zombie spawn is inside and when you get near it wakes up and is able to smash through the side or something. It could have on one side a book/magazine loot or 2 and middle would have like 2 food loot shelves. And the other side have like more book/magazine loot spot. 

 

Someone please make this for this man. Newsstand to him is like you know what to snowdog. Isn't sayin much but sayin just enough ya know 😏

 

 

From what I can see of the ratio of items this seems to be more a confectionery stand than a news stand.

It has made me hungry though...

Edited September 30, 2021 by Gamida (see edit history)

[Renathras]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

There is no question that preferences, play styles and wrong perception of the quality of a weapon all have an influence on the individual player whether he prefers specific weapons or how he sees the balance from his view.

 

 

But all of above is really beside the point, you were complaining before about not getting loot, and after I objected to this you now list lots of different ways to get at that loot! Instead of what you should be showing, that you can't get loot if zombies do not have it 😉. You have shown this only for the zombies outside of POIs.

Lets forget that you were specifically speaking about POIs in your initial post, you are correct that you will miss out some loot on those "wilderness" zombies. But this is probably just another reason why zombie loot was reduced so much. While zombie farming with forges was a practice lots of players simply didn't do, almost everyone felt the urge to kill every zombie in the wild for those loot bags. Again an incentive to regard zombies as merely loot bags, but on a smaller scale.

One could argue that that would be ok, the zombies just need to be a danger, but the problem is that zombies in wide open areas in this game will probably always be easier to handle for the player. There is no easy way to make outdoors zombies really dangerous and POIs still managable, at least not without a complete redesign of the game. So removing loot from zombies is on the whole the best option by far.

 

A sentiment some people on the forum including me have expressed from time to time. For me the "exactly one way" was the problem not that they are filled with obstacles. And it seems they listened to this because some of the newer POIs now have multiple ways or a more open structure (like the clothes shop for example)

 

7D2D is a genre mix. Most people playing it will slightly or even strongly prefer some genre in that mix more than others and hope for it to steer a bit more in that direction. Can't be avoided. With luck A20 will feel better for you and if not there are mods to make it conform more to your tastes.

I want to preface by saying: I hope you don't mind my replies.  I'm not attempting to be antagonistic, just hashing things as I see "X quoted you" and see your counters and considerations to what I have to say. 

On the weapons, I think we've both presented our cases at this point.  I will make ONE sidenote which is that the solution to axes making Strength builds OP would be to simply move that perk over to Fortitude, which would actually make a lot of sense (think woodsmen and that Fort already has arguably the most limited weapon selection outside of Int while having none of Int's crafting tree benefits...)  I do agree that some people value a slot differently than others, though.  I just dislike when my favorite weapon types in games - I was always a Dwarf/Axe fan in LotR, whether we're talking books, the Third Age videogame, or whatever - isn't actually a weapon. 

...though I did not know that Strength was supposed to be the "beginner's tree".  That's news to me.  Very interesting...

.

Stealth kills are a thing (high enough multipliers), and the playstyle I and my friends use the most.  We probably play the game "wrong", but regardless of tree, we try to sneak through POIs and use bows.  The only time we use guns is the "automatic wakeup" rooms, which are, imo, the most obnoxious mechanic in the game.  What's the point of providing players with a stealth tree if you're then going to say "oh, but it doesn't work on this entire thing"?  That'd be like if there were some zombies that were immune to blunt damage AND shotguns, thus rendering the Strength tree entirely meaningless against them.

So, to be honest, I DESPISE that mechanic.

This is also why I love finding the silencer, because when used on 9mms, it makes it where you can use it as a stealth weapon without waking nearby zombies.  Doesn't work so well on anything ELSE, mind you, but it works on those.  Though USUALLY by that point I have far better bows...

I do agree with you about all the (good) loot being in a in one place being kind of bleh.  For some of the smaller POIs this kind of makes sense.  But the big ones like Tier 4 and Tier 5s could honestly have "sub-loot" rooms like old shooters such as Doom having hidden rooms/caches here and there.  Having stuff like that would make the POIs more fun and interesting.  As it is, late-game, I'd just fly a Gyro to the top of the big Tier 5s, loot the loot, then fly away. 

.

I'm also not sure I understand your next argument (left in the quote above).  Field zombies are often of a different type (usually easier) than the later POI zombies.  I'm also not sure who was killing tons of cheerleaders for...coffee beans?  The main incentive is to get XP and so they'll leave you alone.  That's true under the present system.  the old system, you had the odd chance of loot, though generally just somewhat meh loot...but that's better than absolutely nothing at all.

The one problem I have with the "game was becoming too much of a shooter" argument is this:

7 Days To Die: Horde Nights.

The Horde Nights are a very shooter affair.  While later on you can have a lot of traps and such, early on you're limited to spikes and second tier guns like the 9mm and AK.  If Horde Nights weren't in the game, this would be a valid argument...but Horde Nights are in the game...  XD

.

I'm with you on some of the newer POIs having more paths through them.  An issue is that quests still require killing all zombies along all paths, though.  I like where it's heading, though.  My problem is, again, that it seems SOME buildings should be "normal".  EVERY building being a prepper fortress, especially some where it's highly unrealistic (like the apartment building) is a bit much.

I'm trying to think, but the only buildings I can think of that AREN'T prepper fortresses are the motels.  Largely because each hotel room is just a single room and bathroom, so there's not a lot of passages and chokepoints/defenses to really make a path through them without knocking out the walls between all the rooms to make a single path.

I just feel something about every structure in the world being a dungeon to be...unrealistic?

.

I think you mistake me on random.  What I meant is that you cannot bank on it, so you can look at an expectation value, but you could go 1 or 100 before getting one.  I'm not sure how different that is than other things in the game, but other things tend to always have loot in them.  Or used to.  I have noticed a lot more empty containers in A19, which is sort of annoying...

.

I like the game on the whole, just the loot bag thing is just...wrong to me somehow.  I'm not really sure a great solution since many people didn't like the old system (even if the old system feels more realistic and less...wrong).  But in the end, who knows.  I'm just looking forward to a 4 seater 4x4 right now. 

[Renathras]

20 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Psst Gobarg....you need to give this talk to @Renathras....

I like 7DTD > Arc because it's a more realistic scenario.  There are various diseases or candidates that could cause something like a zombie apocalypse, while in Arc, it's like...aliens, dinosaurs, and some crystal thing in your hand that gives you magic knowledge.    (Though being able to build a mobile base is kind of cool...would be neat to see that in 7DTD someday.........)

This makes it a more interesting scenario to me.  It's kind of like I'd rather play The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess than Wind Waker because the artistic styles.

I just think "If X were to happen, what would I expect the logical consequences and effects of it to be or the scenario to play out like?"

.

But yes, I understand a game is different than reality is different than TV.  I do think one solution would be to make these toggles in the game.  E.g. "XP: None, Based on Game State, Normal", where Normal is...well, normal, Based on Game State would be based on how many days your character has been played, and none would be for people that don't want any at all.  Could probably throw some more options in there like "Custom" which would have check boxes for zombie kills, looting, harvesting, crafting, etc and you could set those to some range from 0% to 1,000% (10x) of normal.

...but now we're getting ambitious, I suppose. 

Could do the same with loot drops, by the way.  "Classic, A19+, etc"

.

I do think your gamestate XP basis mod is an interesting concept.  More interesting with permadeath, but I could see that being...less than desirable to some people. 

[Astronomical]

11 hours ago, Blake_ said:

  

Sometimes I just laugh at some statements regarding "videogame release". Minecraft is still in alpha as much as 7dtd. It's just that they deemed ok to call it DONE and get 1 big meaningful patch a year like 7dtd. While the main difference is that we are still short on bandits, but that is Gazz's fault for sure.

 

Empyrion: Galactic Survival just released 1.0 a while ago too. Guess what. Still in "alpha" in all but name.

 

Yep also Space Engineers: "released" in name only while they sell the remaining early access updates as paid dlc.

 

TFP's are at least honest enough to continue early access development under the original terms.

 

Spoiler

Additionally: "Gazz's fault for sure" on bandits = funny 😄

 

[Blake_]

The 4th Stream was nice. Those Props are amazing. We were promised Harry Potter and Tanks for the next one, so the bar is high.

 

BTW @faatal , since I'm the guy who can't watch streams at time due to planetary issues, are vehicle storage mods planned for a21?

[meganoth]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

I want to preface by saying: I hope you don't mind my replies.  I'm not attempting to be antagonistic, just hashing things as I see "X quoted you" and see your counters and considerations to what I have to say. 

 

I hope as well you don't mind my replies. As long as we avoid getting emotional and make an effort to understand the contrary position the argument can't really be antagonistic

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

On the weapons, I think we've both presented our cases at this point.  I will make ONE sidenote which is that the solution to axes making Strength builds OP would be to simply move that perk over to Fortitude, which would actually make a lot of sense (think woodsmen and that Fort already has arguably the most limited weapon selection outside of Int while having none of Int's crafting tree benefits...)  I do agree that some people value a slot differently than others, though.  I just dislike when my favorite weapon types in games - I was always a Dwarf/Axe fan in LotR, whether we're talking books, the Third Age videogame, or whatever - isn't actually a weapon. 

 

 

On that sidenote: That would be possible, but it would be only a partial fix. If you make the axe a weapon on par with other melee weapons you can't have it be the ultimate wood cutter as well. This would only be possible if you either remove the wood-cut ability or put it into an attribute that is otherwise severly underpowered. Fortitude may be slightly "boring" but it has the best guns in the game and is certainly not far behind strength.

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

...though I did not know that Strength was supposed to be the "beginner's tree".  That's news to me.  Very interesting...

 

I may be wrong, I have a hazy memory of people complaining about strength being to good and TFP saying that is supposed to be this way. But my memory has failed me often, so maybe I'm only imagining this!?

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

Stealth kills are a thing (high enough multipliers), and the playstyle I and my friends use the most.  We probably play the game "wrong", but regardless of tree, we try to sneak through POIs and use bows.  The only time we use guns is the "automatic wakeup" rooms, which are, imo, the most obnoxious mechanic in the game.  What's the point of providing players with a stealth tree if you're then going to say "oh, but it doesn't work on this entire thing"?  That'd be like if there were some zombies that were immune to blunt damage AND shotguns, thus rendering the Strength tree entirely meaningless against them.

 

I don't know against what argument you are arguing here or why you say it would be "wrong". Whether you kill zombies in POIs with gun, melee weapon or stealthed with bow or pistol does not matter and none of that is "wrong".  Neither is a fourth alternative "wrong" (which I used in my argument) where you try to stealth through a POI without killing. In all cases you "handle" the zombies somehow and get the loot in containers as reward.

 

And I disagree with the auto-wakeup rooms. A stealth player is not powerless against this:

1) he can run back and restealth (using speed, moving after stealthing because the zombies go to the last know position when you vanish from their radar, and throwing stones after stealthing to misdirect them).

2) he can use louder but stronger weapons as backup for such cases (the pistol, magnum or smg for example). If he does not want to wake up zombies he can first run back a bit and then shoot,

3) he can even use parkour to reach areas the zombies can't (whether made as precaucions or using whatever is there).

 

All of this is provided by perks in Agility.

 

There is a really long discussion about this in another thread a few months old. Essentially a part of the players think "bow user" should be an independant playstyle of its own and another part thinks AGILITY should be that playstyle. I.e. you should have to use all your abilities in AGI if you want to survive.

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

So, to be honest, I DESPISE that mechanic.

This is also why I love finding the silencer, because when used on 9mms, it makes it where you can use it as a stealth weapon without waking nearby zombies.  Doesn't work so well on anything ELSE, mind you, but it works on those.  Though USUALLY by that point I have far better bows...

I do agree with you about all the (good) loot being in a in one place being kind of bleh.  For some of the smaller POIs this kind of makes sense.  But the big ones like Tier 4 and Tier 5s could honestly have "sub-loot" rooms like old shooters such as Doom having hidden rooms/caches here and there.  Having stuff like that would make the POIs more fun and interesting.  As it is, late-game, I'd just fly a Gyro to the top of the big Tier 5s, loot the loot, then fly away. 

.

I'm also not sure I understand your next argument (left in the quote above).  Field zombies are often of a different type (usually easier) than the later POI zombies.  I'm also not sure who was killing tons of cheerleaders for...coffee beans?  The main incentive is to get XP and so they'll leave you alone.  That's true under the present system.  the old system, you had the odd chance of loot, though generally just somewhat meh loot...but that's better than absolutely nothing at all.

 

Even if XP may be the main incentive for most, the loot was on top of that, making zombie farming even more enticing. And while some here in the forum would like XP from zombies to be less as well, it works better than the loot bags. erIt was at least somewhat balanced with other methods to get XP and it doesn't lead to grind especially on horde nights. I hated it, my friends hated it, and one of them told me today all the streamers he watches hated it as well. 

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

The one problem I have with the "game was becoming too much of a shooter" argument is this:

7 Days To Die: Horde Nights.

The Horde Nights are a very shooter affair.  While later on you can have a lot of traps and such, early on you're limited to spikes and second tier guns like the 9mm and AK.  If Horde Nights weren't in the game, this would be a valid argument...but Horde Nights are in the game...  XD

 

No. First of all if horde nights were really strong shooter elements like you say they still would be offset by all the non-shooter elements (like survival and crafting) happening in 6 of 7 days of the week.

 

Also horde night is what you make out of it. Spikes are traps as well and against low-level zombies low level traps are quite effective. If you use POIs as makeshift bases and don't mind their destruction it is even possible to survive without a single shot or melee attack. 

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

I'm with you on some of the newer POIs having more paths through them.  An issue is that quests still require killing all zombies along all paths, though.  I like where it's heading, though.  My problem is, again, that it seems SOME buildings should be "normal".  EVERY building being a prepper fortress, especially some where it's highly unrealistic (like the apartment building) is a bit much.

I'm trying to think, but the only buildings I can think of that AREN'T prepper fortresses are the motels.  Largely because each hotel room is just a single room and bathroom, so there's not a lot of passages and chokepoints/defenses to really make a path through them without knocking out the walls between all the rooms to make a single path.

I just feel something about every structure in the world being a dungeon to be...unrealistic?

 

And you would be right, but a lot is unrealistic in this game (I don't care much about realism, but that is beside the point 😉). And bad news, the hotels are or were already redesigned. The developers don't think this would be more realistic, its no use telling them that. Gameplay trumps realism and the POIs are more useful if they double as proper dungeons for quests. Simple as that.

 

I would like POIs like the ostrich hotel to survive as well, for nostalgia's sake and because of variety, And I expect or hope that some modders will ultimately preserve the old buildings in a mod

 

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

I think you mistake me on random.  What I meant is that you cannot bank on it, so you can look at an expectation value, but you could go 1 or 100 before getting one.  I'm not sure how different that is than other things in the game, but other things tend to always have loot in them.  Or used to.  I have noticed a lot more empty containers in A19, which is sort of annoying...

 

Disagree strongly as a container with useless loot is as or even more annoying to me than an empty container. You have to evaluate if you still need that empty can, that coffee bean, etc. whenever you look into such a container. I like to find usefull stuff or nothing at all.

So when I see a yellow bag I know the chance is high to get something useful (I would guess better than 1 in 3 at the least, that is a good ratio). With the old system I could either auto-loot and later throw out anything I didn't want or tediously check every zombie loot bag for usefulness, and already in mid game 99 times out of 100 the answer was "no". 

 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, Renathras said:

I like the game on the whole, just the loot bag thing is just...wrong to me somehow.  I'm not really sure a great solution since many people didn't like the old system (even if the old system feels more realistic and less...wrong).  But in the end, who knows.  I'm just looking forward to a 4 seater 4x4 right now. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)