Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, faatal said:

Yes, since burning shaft makes light between a candle and torch in brightness.

 

Mod LightValue was actually broken, so fixed and balanced all the LightValues.

 

Is that a change that will surface with the next patch?

 

[HungryZombie]

8 hours ago, DEADFACE said:

IMO, people only called melee basses cheesy because the zombie AI doesn't perform well. If the AI were upgraded so that they would actually attack the structure instead of running in place or swinging and missing everything.

 

Ultimately, the solution to cheese bases will have to involve AI/pathing/attack enhancements (no this doesn't necessarily mean making zombies "smart").

 

If this was true, what does lowering the block HP do? You're saying the zombies did not attack the blocks at all right?

[Xtrakicking]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

where you wouldn't find steel tools week one.

 

where you would only find level 1 stone tools no matter what container or POI you looted.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Phrasing is everything. Loot in alpha 19 wasn't "healthy", it was broken. Now it isn't because people complained and the developers tweaked it. If no one cared when something is broken, then the devs wouldn't fix it and it would stay broken. Rants are necessary, cause they're feedback too.

 

I can't speak for the farming/block health changes because I haven't had my experience with them yet, but if they are as broken as loot in A19 was, then the rants are justified and they're up for some tweaking as well.

[Golevan]

how to play?
Restarting doesn't help
 

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

[Physics.PhysX] TriangleMesh::loadFromDesc: desc.isValid() failed!

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

[Physics.PhysX] TriangleMesh::loadFromDesc: desc.isValid() failed!

 

 

 

[MechanicalLens]

(Spoilers!) I was watching Kage's video where he died in the green house with all the graves in the basement. I died in that same spot in that same house a few days ago. That place is a death trap.

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

 

You can accurately get smug out of text? Bach was saying that 10 complainers got a change they wanted. I was letting him know that at least in this case that wasn't so. I just gave the true account, man. I'm sorry if that disillusions you. The devs definitely listen to complaints. They know all about this initial reaction to the block change. They also have their plans. In the case of LOTL 2 they knew that it needed to be buffed and the steps needed to smoothed out. I'm sure there have been balancing changes completely due to user complaints even if this particular case wasn't one of them. Even if everyone would have been gleeful about the farming change, LOTL 2 was going to get changed. But you needn't suppose that just because I set the record straight about this case that I'm somehow making a sweeping statement that the devs never listen to community feedback. That is just crazy.

Well i understand why they simplifed upgrading blocks - more shapes = more textures etc. but upgrading was so good exp grinder so i hope they will just buff number of exp per upgrade

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I'll try to explain my position on why I don't like this block HP change as briefly as I can:

• I like to build legit Blood Moon bases that are also pleasant to the eye and space efficient
• My "crafting base" and Blood Moon base are often the same (I like to play like that): which adds additional challenge to the game, since you need to be extra-careful protecting your storage and crafting stations
• Since I also live there, I usually have a 5x5 blocks base where I can place stuff
• I do use 4x poles adjacent to each other and arches that run from the top because I like how it looks even if it's a BM base: now I'll just 4x full blocks.
• To free up all the 5x5 blocks inside, I usually put the actual walls on the outside, but I use plates so that the base doesn't look blocky or ugly. I also like to put curved arches/blocks inside or outside to use as ledges or to feel I have more space inside.
• Since I hang my storage crates on the walls, with this change I'm basically forced to change the layout, and instead I'll use full blocks for the outside to avoid spitting cops destroying my storage by chance
• I also use half blocks or "fancy" blocks to avoid crouching zombies (or dogs) getting through while I'm confronting them in melee combat (they can hit me the same way I can hit them) so I don't see how this is to be considered "cheesy". Basically, I put a Hatch on the ground and fill the top with smaller block to stop crawling zeds to pass through. In the future, I'll use a bigger/uglier block (with more hit points) but reach the same net result.
• For those who say, well, "tough luck!" you'll need to change your base layout! ... Sure, I can do that. And I can already tell you that it won't change a thing from a balance perspective: I can achieve the same result with much uglier (but sturdier) blocks. I was already doing that way before A20, so...

 

That's why I think the block HP change will only damage creativity in base building, since anyone with a grain of salt won't keep using the weaker blocks anymore, but just revert to pre-A20 base layouts with uglier and sturdier blocks.

 

As for the animosity I've seen on this forum lately, I personally don't share any of that, I don't think TFP make changes based on how much they can upset players or anything like that. I often agree with their choices when I understand the "bigger picture", but in this case I'm explaining why, from my perspective, this is a bad change.

 

I'm just not a mindless drone who always needs to agree with devs.

 

I hope this will be helpful for the designer/dev team.

Thanks

My advice :

Make 10-20 block length spike field and after another  blood moon repair all destroyed spikes and add 5 more block from each side 

[Kosmic Kerman]

35 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well i understand why they simplifed upgrading blocks - more shapes = more textures etc. but upgrading was so good exp grinder so i hope they will just buff number of exp per upgrade

Wouldn't wood frames to concrete/steel be comparable to rebar to concrete/steel?

[BFT2020]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I can promise you that there was not one single conversation about "we gotta stop these guys from building in the way that they love to build muwahahahahahahaaaa!" No mustaches were twirled or capes flourished or damsels tied to railroad tracks.

I don’t know, my sources were able to get a picture of Latham during the last meeting

 

https://imgur.com/a/JxytUYD

[lord_ahriman]

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

All this rage over building blocks reminded me of the sheer R A G E people spewed out in A19 when the loot was changed to where you wouldn't find steel tools week one. So many wall of text rants about how they would never play again and how it made it pointless to do PoI before X week because all the loot containers  would have lower tier loot so they had to wait until gamestage X to get anything good, and how it made no sense that a sealed wooden box had a stone axe in it etc etc etc etc

 

Loot change was healthy for game. Block change is healthy for game. Farming change is healthy for game.  Drone change to scale with Int and Pipe Baton change to actually scale (well) with the baton tree will be  healthy for game.

 

I can't remember the drama of the week (drama of the alpha?) for A17 and A18 etc, I'm sure they had something that triggered a horde night on the forums for Roland to sigh at

 

A16 to A17: zombies digging because underground bases were an "unacceptable exploit".

 

I couldn't care less how people are playing this game so if you wanna build an underground base and not taking on the hordes it's on you, but I really think the hp reduction for some blocks are not a good thing.

 

The farming change? Yeah, for me is a great change and I love it. I'm planning a massive farm, much bigger than my old 1080 farm plots in A18.

[Neminsis]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I'll try to explain my position on why I don't like this block HP change as briefly as I can:

• I like to build legit Blood Moon bases that are also pleasant to the eye and space efficient
• My "crafting base" and Blood Moon base are often the same (I like to play like that): which adds additional challenge to the game, since you need to be extra-careful protecting your storage and crafting stations
• Since I also live there, I usually have a 5x5 blocks base where I can place stuff
• I do use 4x poles adjacent to each other and arches that run from the top because I like how it looks even if it's a BM base: now I'll just 4x full blocks.
• To free up all the 5x5 blocks inside, I usually put the actual walls on the outside, but I use plates so that the base doesn't look blocky or ugly. I also like to put curved arches/blocks inside or outside to use as ledges or to feel I have more space inside.
• Since I hang my storage crates on the walls, with this change I'm basically forced to change the layout, and instead I'll use full blocks for the outside to avoid spitting cops destroying my storage by chance
• I also use half blocks or "fancy" blocks to avoid crouching zombies (or dogs) getting through while I'm confronting them in melee combat (they can hit me the same way I can hit them) so I don't see how this is to be considered "cheesy". Basically, I put a Hatch on the ground and fill the top with smaller block to stop crawling zeds to pass through. In the future, I'll use a bigger/uglier block (with more hit points) but reach the same net result.
• For those who say, well, "tough luck!" you'll need to change your base layout! ... Sure, I can do that. And I can already tell you that it won't change a thing from a balance perspective: I can achieve the same result with much uglier (but sturdier) blocks. I was already doing that way before A20, so...

 

That's why I think the block HP change will only damage creativity in base building, since anyone with a grain of salt won't keep using the weaker blocks anymore, but just revert to pre-A20 base layouts with uglier and sturdier blocks.

 

 

But none of that will actually even happen...

The ai hasn't focused on blocks that weren't directly adjacent to the player in a very long time and destroy area mode just doesn't last that long.

To be honest, you use the 4x poles because the 4x hp gain and SI redundancy and not because of aesthetics, or this change wouldn't matter to you, and frankly that 4x hp was already overkill.

Cops won't spit at you through walls so it doesn't matter what blocks are on the outside and the inside.  The only reasons for using 2-3 block deep walls are if you're doing a brute force base, or more typically if you're trying to ensure that the Z's path away from that area without attacking it and towards a weaker position where you can engage them in a controlled fashion. According to your description of the use of hatches your use case would be the latter.

The only use case that's even in question is the practice of using poles as the final barrier at the player position, and if you were doing that behind a single block then you might have an issue since they no longer downgrade, but you could solve that by just putting another pole behind it. Which honestly should've been the play given they don't downgrade any more, but long time players are going to shy away from this, not because of aesthetics, but because of needing that final barrier to have fewer hps than the surrounding walls to ensure the Z's path correctly. Well guess what? Now they do and now you can, making the entire question moot.

The other reason poles are used even though they take increased damage is because of their smaller bit boxes they don't get hit as often.

Also, since you can adjust the Z block damage without having to mod a single thing the entire question is completely irrelevant and boils down to "Change is hard! OMG TFP ruinz everything!" 

Don't panic.

[Matt115]

24 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Wouldn't wood frames to concrete/steel be comparable to rebar to concrete/steel?

nope? Wood frames after upgrade became wood block. so Make rebar was quiet pointless if you wanted to get a lot of exp fast

[MechanicalLens]

I just realized it takes over 2 minutes to craft a steel block... Right... 😛

[Jost Amman]

17 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

But none of that will actually even happen...

The ai hasn't focused on blocks that weren't directly adjacent to the player in a very long time and destroy area mode just doesn't last that long.

To be honest, you use the 4x poles because the 4x hp gain and SI redundancy and not because of aesthetics, or this change wouldn't matter to you, and frankly that 4x hp was already overkill.

Cops won't spit at you through walls so it doesn't matter what blocks are on the outside and the inside.  The only reasons for using 2-3 block deep walls are if you're doing a brute force base, or more typically if you're trying to ensure that the Z's path away from that area without attacking it and towards a weaker position where you can engage them in a controlled fashion. According to your description of the use of hatches your use case would be the latter.

The only use case that's even in question is the practice of using poles as the final barrier at the player position, and if you were doing that behind a single block then you might have an issue since they no longer downgrade, but you could solve that by just putting another pole behind it. Which honestly should've been the play given they don't downgrade any more, but long time players are going to shy away from this, not because of aesthetics, but because of needing that final barrier to have fewer hps than the surrounding walls to ensure the Z's path correctly. Well guess what? Now they do and now you can, making the entire question moot.

The other reason poles are used even though they take increased damage is because of their smaller bit boxes they don't get hit as often.

Also, since you can adjust the Z block damage without having to mod a single thing the entire question is completely irrelevant and boils down to "Change is hard! OMG TFP ruinz everything!" 

Don't panic.

You spit sentences, but you don't even know what you're talking about.

I've got bars all around my fighting area, so cops can see me, BTW.

 

And please, stop assuming I'm lying on why I use pole as columns.

As I said, it won't change a thing to switch from poles to full blocks... it's just MUCH uglier.

 

Anyway, I stayed my case and I only care for TFP to read it, they'll make of it whatever they like.

I don't need entitled kids to teach me how to build bases.

[MechanicalLens]

So it would take almost 3 in-game weeks to craft a full stack of steel blocks unless you split them in between workbenches. Not complaining, just making an observation.

[Red Eagle LXIX]

I'm still curious if not lowering the HP of bars was a mistake or intended.

To me seeing bars with full hitpoints sitting on a thicker plate that has fewer hitpoints just screams "You must gun and fight this way.  You shall not face the horde another way".   Ah well, back to the basic full blocks square with bar wings off the side to shoot from.  Not even as nice as the little one built in the Dev Streams.

 

 

 

[Neminsis]

22 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

You spit sentences, but you don't even know what you're talking about.

I've got bars all around my fighting area, so cops can see me, BTW.

 

And please, stop assuming I'm lying on why I use pole as columns.

As I said, it won't change a thing to switch from poles to full blocks... it's just MUCH uglier.

 

Anyway, I stayed my case and I only care for TFP to read it, they'll make of it whatever they like.

I don't need entitled kids to teach me how to build bases.

If you've got bars all around your fighting area that means that the 2 thick walls are somewhere else then, right? 

I'm not assuming that you're lying, as long as you've been playing it's more likely that you don't even think about the original reason you started doing things a particular way. I'm just saying that it's not really going to have much of practical effect on your builds at all.

It's funny that you 'assume' that I'm an "entitled kid" because I disagree with you when I'm actually on the far side of the other end of that spectrum. I realize that I'm "new" to speaking on this particular forum and don't have 1k plus posts under my belt. but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't informed by the actual game mechanics, that I'm inherently wrong, or that I'm less "entitled" than you to voice said opinion. 

But if you would like some tips on building bases I'd be glad to help. I can even point you to a few videos if you'd like.

[Neminsis]

17 minutes ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

I'm still curious if not lowering the HP of bars was a mistake or intended.

To me seeing bars with full hitpoints sitting on a thicker plate that has fewer hitpoints just screams "You must gun and fight this way.  You shall not face the horde another way".   Ah well, back to the basic full blocks square with bar wings off the side to shoot from.  Not even as nice as the little one built in the Dev Streams.

 

 

 

Plates can be doubled up, and because the lower plates will be hit much less frequently than the second block up their effective hps are still higher. The Z's are going to focus that second block up and attempt to go over the lower block. 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Golevan said:

how to play?
Restarting doesn't help
 

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

[Physics.PhysX] TriangleMesh::loadFromDesc: desc.isValid() failed!

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

[Physics.PhysX] TriangleMesh::loadFromDesc: desc.isValid() failed!

 

 

 

 

If you want help post your problem in the "General Support" section. Follow the advice in the pinned thread on how to report an issue.

[meganoth]

24 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

Plates can be doubled up, and because the lower plates will be hit much less frequently than the second block up their effective hps are still higher. The Z's are going to focus that second block up and attempt to go over the lower block. 

 

Bars can be doubled up as well, taking up exactly the same space as doubled up plates.

[spacepiggio]

I propose a name change for the "Dead Rooster" to the "Little Dead Rooster" in memory of Charlie Watts, rock on Mole Man...

[Neminsis]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Bars can be doubled up as well, taking up exactly the same space as doubled up plates.

And still the Z behavior means that the second block up will take more hits than the lower one and the effective hps of the lower block will still be higher.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Phrasing is everything. Loot in alpha 19 wasn't "healthy", it was broken. Now it isn't because people complained and the developers tweaked it. If no one cared when something is broken, then the devs wouldn't fix it and it would stay broken. Rants are necessary, cause they're feedback too.

 

Very true, complaining is necessary. But rants are not. Rants are only necessary if there is a shouting match going on where nobody is listening to reason anymore.

 

Loot was changed from A19 because people had given valid reasons for their dislike beside some people ranting. Other things like digging zombies were not changed even though people posted rants about it.

 

Maybe you equate complaints with rants, I see a difference there.

 

2 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

 

I can't speak for the farming/block health changes because I haven't had my experience with them yet, but if they are as broken as loot in A19 was, then the rants are justified and they're up for some tweaking as well.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I just reverted all the shapes back to before the nerf.

yes there's a mod that does that, but, a 2 min in an editor and it's back the way it was.

 

I liked the plates as a fence (from the old bombshelter_lg_01),  then later on, add full block walls.

 

If there's a change I don't like, and I can change/modify it to where I like it, I CAN do it. (and will)

TFP have given us that ability. Mostly.  😛

(digging zombies, no. hate them.     )

 

Now, about that crouching jump animation...

 

There is something just WRONG with having one of the fat zeds do the crouch and TRY to leap.

(they're too fat and just sorta lurch at you and nibble your ankles)

Big Momma... leaping.... no. just no.

 

 

[meganoth]

6 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

And still the Z behavior means that the second block up will take more hits than the lower one and the effective hps of the lower block will still be higher.

 

Once the upper block is destroyed and zombies hit on the lower block that distinction is strictly academic to the soon-to-be-dead survivor. 😁

 

Both blocks being bars is obviously more sturdy than bar+plate. Red Eagle surely posted that picture just for comparison of the two types

 

5 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

I just reverted all the shapes back to before the nerf.

yes there's a mod that does that, but, a 2 min in an editor and it's back the way it was.

 

I liked the plates as a fence (from the old bombshelter_lg_01),  then later on, add full block walls.

 

If there's a change I don't like, and I can change/modify it to where I like it, I CAN do it. (and will)

TFP have given us that ability. Mostly.  😛

(digging zombies, no. hate them.     )

 

Now, about that crouching jump animation...

 

There is something just WRONG with having one of the fat zeds do the crouch and TRY to leap.

(they're too fat and just sorta lurch at you and nibble your ankles)

Big Momma... leaping.... no. just no.

 

 

 

This is called "fan service" 😉