Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[madmole]

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Too much knee jerking on farm changes.  This sounds like people not giving change a fair shake.  One thing everyone seems to agree upon though is food was a non issue in A19.  With that said, why not test things out for a good while and see what its like in a full play through or two?  I am pretty sure Joel and anyone else who is a decision maker in this would be more open to your feedback if you provided some good pros/cons of the change after doing so versus day # 2 of public experimental release....

Exactly. People proposing changes cannot have enough time in yet to even make an informed decision about the balance. It takes 50+ hours to get a feel for how many seed you will loot and how scared your cupboards actually are. Once you get an auger and enough bullets and a vehicle and some decent meals you don't burn crap for calories and the cupboards start filling up, depending on play style of course.

[vergilsparda]

not to derail any conversations, but can someone clarify what skill tree/perk the pipe baton falls under? is it the same one that unlocks the stun baton/makes the stun baton better, or pummel pete since it's a non-electric melee weapon? i feel stupid for asking but i can't find anywhere in what i think is the most relevant perks anything about the pipe baton. 

 

or is it just a T0 weapon that isn't meant to be upgraded through perks (like, to get more damage)?

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

2 minutes ago, madmole said:

Exactly. People proposing changes cannot have enough time in yet to even make an informed decision about the balance. It takes 50+ hours to get a feel for how many seed you will loot and how scared your cupboards actually are. Once you get an auger and enough bullets and a vehicle and some decent meals you don't burn crap for calories and the cupboards start filling up, depending on play style of course.

 

It's not about balance, it's about an alternative means to do so 😒

[madmole]

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

 

I have to hard disagree on this. I'm "only" 36 hours into my world, but I'm absolutely drowning in ammo on warrior difficulty with feral sense on and x64 zombie blood moons, 100% loot. I have not completed the lucky looter series, so all this is on default loot bag drop rates.

 

Around day 20 on stream, I thought we had too much so I joking left my melee at home and just started spraying and praying my way through tier 5 POIs for fun. That just made things worse. Zombie loot bags are guaranteed to drop ammo in the first slot now, and each bag has ~50 shotgun shells, ~70 .762, or ~90 9mm. I played alpha 19 for 1000 hours, I had to craft ammo a lot, and never once did I need to make a second ammo chest. In alpha 20, I already need a second chest and literally can't shoot it away faster than I get it. 

 

I think the problem (for me) is entirely coming from the loot bags. Ammo piles seem to have way less than they did in previous alphas, and I don't know about traders because I've never needed to buy or craft any. Hard example from the stream: On my day 28 horde I used ~40 pipe bombs and finished the horde around 12:30. From the loot bags, with no loot candy, I got ~450 .762, 600 9mm, and ~300 shotgun shells. 

 

Another hard example, day 34 I started dishong tower with 600 9mm and ~200 shotgun shells. I finished the POI using nothing but my smg and pumpyboy and left with nearly 1000 9mm, ~400ish shotguns, and a few stacks of .762. This is almost entirely from the yellow bags as the loot piles were fair amounts of ammo; a few bullets and/or crafting parts for ammo.

 

I'm not good at FPS and I miss shots a ton as Gazz and other viewers can attest too, I'm not some MLG no scope pro - I am just mediocre with guns, but I'm literally drowning in ammo despite only using guns this alpha. This isn't meant to be a brag post. Am I really the only person having this problem in game this alpha? 

I play tested b186 and it was nothing like this, so unless they changed some stuff in the last few weeks this doesn't sound right at all. How are you on day 28? It has barely been out that long with 1 hour days. Then I read your on day 34? It hasn't been out for 34 hours dude. So some settings you have might be changing it? Loot bags seem to be about 1 in 50 or so for me and rarely have bullets.

[hiemfire]

MisutoM --> Japan, English

 

From:

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/25369-announcing-a20-streamer-weekend-application/?do=findComment&comment=444765

[MisutoM]

49 minutes ago, madmole said:

I play tested b186 and it was nothing like this, so unless they changed some stuff in the last few weeks this doesn't sound right at all. How are you on day 28? It has barely been out that long with 1 hour days. Then I read your on day 34? It hasn't been out for 34 hours dude. So some settings you have might be changing it? Loot bags seem to be about 1 in 50 or so for me and rarely have bullets.

 

I'm on the morning of day 37 with 1 hour default days. I'm a full time streamer (as in I support my family with streams). So when I woke Saturday (Japan time) a20 was out for us streamers. I put in a 12 hour stream Sat, 13 hours Sunday, 12 hours Monday, and 11.5 hours Tuesday. So ~48 hours of stream since the streamer weekend began Saturday for me. Most was in this main world on day 37. But we took some just chatting breaks to discuss stuff and paused for stretch breaks a good bit. That's why we're only on 37.

 

I guess it's possible that I'm having some insanely statistics breaking luck with loot bags. Hopefully it's just that, because "drowning" in bullets hardly describes a full writeable storage chest of just .762 ammo that I don't use a mostly full box of 9mm/shotgun that I exclusively have used on zombies for ~15 hours in game since I realized I was getting too much. Maybe I should stop shotgunning open doors before my luck swings the other way. This luck was happening on the streamer weekend build and also the most current build though, so if it was a change, it's still in there today. Gazz was even chilling in stream during the Dishong raid and saw how we were just abusing ammo and getting loot bags left and right.

 

Quick edit, missed the second to last question.

 

I changed the difficulty to warrior. XP to 150%. Feral Sense always on. Bloodmoon x64 zombies. Everything else is default.

 

I checked, I do have the lucky looter book to find more ammo in loot. Is it possible the multiplier with that got messed up somewhere? Is 106 9mm per yellow loot bag intentional? I do not have the full series though, so loot bags should still be at their base rate which from my recorded hours seems to be around 1 in 10 to 1 in 20. If you're experiencing closer to 1 in 50 we are having vastly different experiences.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

I submit that those who find planting seeds annoying and tedious are not really into farming in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

And I submit you are wrong. I am at least one exception to your absurd rule

 

3 hours ago, madmole said:

I don't really see it as a big deal, you have to replant crops in real life.

 

3 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Thats the tedium after speccing into the farming skills and going to lengths to create your farm, Joel.

 

lol...

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

With that said, why not test things out for a good while and see what its like in a full play through or two?

 

3 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

This isn't necessary because we have had it explained to us how it works and we do not like or agree with it.

 

So TFP can't get farming right despite a team of people brainstorming, playing, experimenting, tuning it in, discussing it more, and then settling upon the current design but you can get it right just from a read of the patch notes and some explanation? How about a bit more trust for the team and maybe entertain the possibility that you might actually need to play with it first and see what the results are.

 

Personally, the only thing I think needs to be added @madmole is some xp award for planting each seed as was suggested to bring it in line with the other game actions we do that earn xp.

 

 

Well, that's a lie. I would also like to have to provide a water source nearby a la minecraft and I think zombies and animals should (once again) be able to collide and break crops so that if you don't protect them well you will have to replant. But then, I like planting...

[bdubyah]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Well, that's a lie. I would also like to have to provide a water source nearby a la minecraft and I think zombies and animals should (once again) be able to collide and break crops so that if you don't protect them well you will have to replant. But then, I like planting...

I would absolutely be for those changes as well. Especially the breakage part.

[hiemfire]

8 minutes ago, Roland said:

Well, that's a lie. I would also like to have to provide a water source nearby a la minecraft and I think zombies and animals should (once again) be able to collide and break crops so that if you don't protect them well you will have to replant. But then, I like planting...

 

These actually look like they'd be fun to plan for and adjust to. Not with having to also fight an uphill battle against entropic rng just to start a farm though.

[bilibili-wayne]

On 2021/12/5 at AM5点08分, SnowDog1942 said:

 

我被拒绝了。

 无论如何，请告诉他们我爱他们。

Also, would you please tell us and European players, the audience, I love them too! Welcome people from all over the world come to China travel!
 

[Roland]

39 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

I would absolutely be for those changes as well. Especially the breakage part.

Back in the day zombies would chase deer through the big cornfields and you’d see stalks of corn flying. It was awesome!

[unholyjoe]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

Back in the day zombies would chase deer through the big cornfields and you’d see stalks of corn flying. It was awesome!

you'd hear rabbits thumping your corn and tators too... had our team mates scrambling to kill the beggers before we lost our stock. people now have no clue about the good old days

 

[bdubyah]

Now the biggest travesty is a 50% chance to lose a seed. Lol.

[Blake_]

I'm on day 124 with 2 hour days. I started back in 2015  before you guys were cool. Or maybe I died 124 times? Dunno, difficult so say, the new UI is too translucent with the a20 shader. I had to crank it up to 80% to see schit. Snow and clear clouds make the time dissapear.

[Darklegend222]

5 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

you'd hear rabbits thumping your corn and tators too... had our team mates scrambling to kill the beggers before we lost our stock. people now have no clue about the good old days

 

I'm heavily curious as to what alpha this is, I've played each one since 15. I could use a good laugh!

[Khalagar]

Got a lot more time in today, still loving pipe baton animations. A20 is awesome so far.  Can we just get a blanket ban on the word farming for like 7 days lol, at this point everything has been said so either play and cope or don't and cope

 

Food is a pretty minor issue for me already honestly. Bacon and Eggs are OP and easy to make, air drops give food sometimes, buried supplies give food, and if you just hunt animals or live in the snow biome you will have infinite meat being delivered to your door. I was starving to death, with 0 food and was losing health to it as I drove to an air drop and got 10 blue berry pies and looted like 40 eggs along the way. That alone has carried me a loooong time, along with looting every pantry and fridge I see to get more canned food, and that's with me feeding two people since my friend is useless and is a "DPS player" that only picks up ammo and guns and nothing else

 

Ammo is definitely VERY prevalent, even to the point that my friend who S P A M S bullets barely runs out. He uses like 15+ 9mm per zombie, and uses his 'ranged hammer" to shoot holes in blocks and picture frames etc, and I've got like 600+ shotgun shells already by day 9 I think? on normal day length and loot settings etc

 

2 hours ago, vergilsparda said:

not to derail any conversations, but can someone clarify what skill tree/perk the pipe baton falls under? is it the same one that unlocks the stun baton/makes the stun baton better, or pummel pete since it's a non-electric melee weapon? i feel stupid for asking but i can't find anywhere in what i think is the most relevant perks anything about the pipe baton. 

 

or is it just a T0 weapon that isn't meant to be upgraded through perks (like, to get more damage)?

 

 

Pipe Baton is under the Intellect attribute, and sort of scales from the Stun Baton perk line (think the perk line is called electrocute". I've actually posted a few posts on it and hopefully @madmole is not overwhlemed by the farming debates and has noticed 😃

 

The issue is that Pipe Baton is not mentioned in any of the UI so new players won't know it's affected by the Intellect tree, Pipe Baton can't use stun baton mods like the stun repulsor, and Pipe Baton does not get the main benefits of the Stun Baton perk line, which feels very bad and makes it so you don't bother perking into your own weapon line which is weird

 

I feel like the solution is fairly straight forward honestly though. Just give Pipe Baton some kind of mod that lets it hold an electric charge to make it a poor mans stun baton, and add a tier 3 Steel Baton which rounds out the baton line so it has an end game option.  That also helps fill out the depressingly stark Intellect tree

 

 

Compare the toys other trees have, and it certainly seems like Intellect is the red headed step child.

 

Strength has

 

1. Pipe Shotgun
2. Double Barrel Shotgun
3. Pump shotgun
4. Auto Shotgun
5. Wooden Club
6. Iron Club
7. Steel Club
8. Stone Sledge
9. Iron Sledge
10. Steel Sledge

(it also technically has all the heavy armor and all tools  too, but just comparing pure weapons alone)

 

Intellect has

 

1.  Pipe Baton
2. Stun Baton
3. Junk Sledge
4. Junk Turret

 

And that's it lol. The Drone is unrelated to int and is basically just a vehicle. Perception has snipers, spears, and explosives, with 3 or 4 of each type, agility has knives, pistols, smgs, and bows with 3 or 4 of each type, fortitude has machine guns and knuckles with 3 or 4 of each type etc. Compare that to int having a total of 4 weapons, I don't think a steel baton to at least give the int a t3 weapon of any kind would be too remiss

 

Also the impact baton animations are too cool to be wasted on a t0 weapon that doesn't scale well with it's own perk line, can't let that hard work and $$$ spent making the animations and model go to waste past week 1!

[Blake_]

@madmole have you guys talked about maintaining an activated (started) quest  on exit in Single Player? Quests didn't get much love in a20 apart from those 3 changes (tier 3 buried, generator, trader list). Also old exploits like the trader quest list reset on exit are still there . But we got confetti. Alright, not fair but fair because it's Prime's task.

[Roland]

50 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

Compare the toys other trees have, and it certainly seems like Intellect is the red headed step child.

 

How about a ban on ALL dead horse beating....

[Khalagar]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

How about a ban on ALL dead horse beating....

 

No my dead horse is objectively the most important to be beat into glue

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Khalagar said:

 

No my dead horse is objectively the  most important to be beat into glue

 

Now glue crafting isn't good enough either compared to other component crafting recipes? 

[bilibili-wayne]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

 

与其他组件制作配方相比，现在胶水制作还不够好？ 

Hi, Roland. In the green room I give you a message, you see?
 

[Darklegend222]

18 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

@madmole have you guys talked about maintaining an activated (started) quest  on exit in Single Player? Quests didn't get much love in a20 apart from those 3 changes (tier 3 buried, generator, trader list). Also old exploits like the trader quest list reset on exit are still there . But we got confetti. Alright, not fair but fair because it's Prime's task.

Quests got plenty of love, especially when you unlock the "special" quests for trade routes. I'm not sure how far you made it but it gets a lot better, I won't spoil anything for ya. I forgot to mention that we can also do lower tiered quests even when we unlock higher tiers!

[icehot]

I like the having to replant thing, makes it more of a mechanic to deal with, I also like the seed loss thing, food is a struggle now, and that's a good thing - however, I do think that there's nothing wrong with decreasing the chance of seed loss if you're spec'ing higher up into living off the land - or perhaps a book that can teach you to recover seeds better.  That way there's some investment in the whole process.

[Aldranon]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

Now glue crafting isn't good enough either compared to other component crafting recipes? 

 

I don't see any airship builds, not the baby ones, I'm talking about Hindenburg size!  A20 is completely broken because of that...

 

 

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I just went out of 9mm ammo today, luckily I had resources to craft ~35 bullets. Day 18, with feral sense on. Haven't seen many yellow bags.

 

 

Don't worry, you'll probably not live too long anyway. 

 

Once a pack of the REAL spider zombies (Demons?) get on you, you'll die pretty quick without a good high rate of fire weapon.

[CoolJ]

4 hours ago, madmole said:

Exactly. People proposing changes cannot have enough time in yet to even make an informed decision about the balance. It takes 50+ hours to get a feel for how many seed you will loot and how scared your cupboards actually are. Once you get an auger and enough bullets and a vehicle and some decent meals you don't burn crap for calories and the cupboards start filling up, depending on play style of course.

 

Not exactly. Can you guarantee that every random gen map will have a Carl's Corn POI? In A19, I had several worlds without. I asked this question already and got no answer. Super corn is the only reason to farm at all. There is so much meat out there, I already have three stacks on day six. I am not even going out of my way to get it. I am just killing the animals I see and the ones the game throws at me. Like the day four wolf horde that showed up at my base.

 

If you couldn't survive on meat then this whole farming business is extra harsh because you would have to put your first six points in the game into farming just to stay alive. By the time you get any kind of glue farm established, you won't even need it anymore. You will have already struggled to boil down every bone you can find to make the things you needed the glue for a long time since. This also kinda screws people that would rather have a small farm on the roof of their base. Now you need a considerably bigger farm than before. Roughly twice the size. So the usual 7x7 plot I plant on top of my base will have to be 14x14 now. That ain't gonna fit on my roof.