So long 19, going back to 16

[~Kevin~]

I came, I saw, 19 is an improvement over 17 and 18, but still not as good as 16, so back to 16 I go.  Will be back after 20 is released. 

 

Tip to developers, read the forum post and stop going off on a tangent.  You had an almost perfect game with 16, but you screwed everything up with 17.  Study Lean and Six Sigma, and stop looking at the game from your point of view. As a paying customer I can not recommend the game in the current development path. I would like to be able to craft (not buy) the forge before my 5 year old granddaughter finishes college.  Developers almost had heaven at 16, and screwed it up.  I just hope the devs do better at 20 than they did in the last 3 betas.

[Tehnomaag]

That is pretty patronizing tone you are adopting there, mate. 

 

Anyway, there seems to be plenty enough people who do like a19, considering the steam concurrent player stats. So I'd say a19 seems to be performing, stats wise, quite fine. I actually though about this difference between the crafting / grindy skills / etc a lil while ago. In my opinion, while different, these systems were just basically "buyswork", depending on particular players personal preferences, ofc. Some people really do like the struggle of finding 4 more nails to be able to craft their first wooden frame. since these days 7d2d has adopted a more abstracted resource/crafting management system. Yes it could be far more granular and with few more tiers - to better emulate the progression one is making from "stone age" to "modern age", but eventually, one has to accept that it is a game and there is certain magic involved, when you pick up your jeep and put it in your pocket, or craft steel walls with your stone axe. 

[Stingerwolf]

Hi Kevin, could you expand a little regarding your choice?  As a long term player of 7DtD (Alpha 8, I think), I'm genuinely interested in what you think 16 has which makes it better than 19.  I'm asking from the point of view of not remembering myself!  Was that the version which had gun parts of different quality and skill advancement from performing tasks?

 

I see a lot of threads talking about 16 vs 19 but I don't know what the fundamental differences are.  Cheers.

[Jugginator]

3 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

I would like to be able to craft (not buy) the forge before my 5 year old granddaughter finishes college. 

Actually you can have a forge as soon as you find the materials for it. 1 singular point into Advanced Engineering (non attribute gated) will grant you the recipe. 

[Solomon]

40 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Actually you can have a forge as soon as you find the materials for it. 1 singular point into Advanced Engineering (non attribute gated) will grant you the recipe. 

Forge is at level 2 on advanced enginering isnt it so its more like 3 points atleast?

[Sydious]

25 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Forge is at level 2 on advanced enginering isnt it so its more like 3 points atleast?

No it's at Advanced Engineering level 1.

[Liesel Weppen]

5 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

I would like to be able to craft (not buy) the forge before my 5 year old granddaughter finishes college. 

And what exactly is the problem there?

 

Edit: Something was broken, forum didn't show me the latest answeres and mixed up some posts...

[Viktoriusiii]

As a very outspoken friend of A16, I do not think that A16 was better than A19.
I think those two versions are quality wise more or less on par. I would even give A19 the slight edge just because there have been quite a few improvements to the world and graphics.

 

BUT they are two different games. A16 was a horde survival game. A19 is (less so than 18 but still) a shootnloot tower defense game.
Food is pretty scarce, which is nice. But weapons are still far too readily available, which also makes hordenight imbalanced, since there are way too many for spikes to handle. (Also they path around spikes most of the time)

In A19 the first one or two hordenights were spikes only, hoping your setup will hold. After that you started making a fort to be able to shoot, but you still used spikes around your base.
In A19 everyone has a hordebase. They still come only from one side and basicially only follow one path. It was very much improved since the introduction in 17. But it still follows the "one path to player" mentality.


My conclusion: A16 was an awesome horde - survival game with brilliant mechanics. But I can not in good faith say that A16 is still better than A19.
A19 is not a horde - survival game anymore. But the game that it IS is pretty fun. They got rid of the most idiotic changes since 17 and the things they added (even though they would have made A16 better as well) are numerous and add a lot.

So I would give A19 89% and A16 84%. I do still miss a game in my playlist that gives me my "horrific crouching in the corner and hoping the Horde will die on spikes" moment... but A19 overall is still a better game.

[katarynna]

You can craft the forge as soon as you finish the tutorial quests, if you know where to find the mats.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@~Kevin~ Maybe you should try and play A19 seriously instead of just focusing what you don´t like . Honestly not knowing that you can build a forge on day 1 seems like you didn´t even try to play it the right way. Wich makes your opinion kinda irrelevant tbh. You didn´t even bother reading the skills.

 

It´s the same like in A18 already. Finish the starter quest and put one point into advanced engineering.

 

The materials are gathered easy. Duct Tape you either find when looting or you harvest carcasses/hunt animals until you have 21 bones for 3 glue wich can be crafted with a cooking pot in the campfire. Leather can be gathered either from animals or from couches and office chairs (scrap the chairs for 6 leather). Short iron pipes can be looted or you smash a toilet and get one per toilet. Now you only need to dig for clay and mine some rocks.

[Rince]

Honestly after played quite a bit of A19 I can say that I'm having the most fun with 7dtd since the first times.

Even with those annoying vultures.

 

In my current game the progression and loot feels pretty good. Of course, can be tweaked and make it even better. But right now, I think that's pretty good.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I do miss having to find various parts for weapons to assemble them. I miss being able to improve quality on items. There's a lot I enjoyed from the past, but I still like A19. Give it time. The game is still being developed. We may get some of our old features back in the future.

 

Currently my only gripe with A19 is the damn vultures. They are everywhere and if you are in a vehicle suddenly they move as fast as jet airplanes. They also bug out and circle for HOURS and then suddenly they realize they are supposed to attack. Normally when you are fighting a horde. They are SO annoying!

[Kyonshi]

TC, i suggest you uninstall the game entirely. If you're having such a hard time being able to craft a Forge, one of the easiest thing that can be done during early game, then the game isn't for you. The Pimps also shouldnt have to comply to such condescendent, patronizing tone.

 

In fact, its so easy that even your little daughter could teach you...  And even if you cant craft one, for the most unusual and unlikely reasons, you can buy one, if available, for what, 2000 dukes? Complete few missions, sell some stuff you find along the way, and you can afford one and end those extremely harsh days you seem to face.

 

Im throwing you gems on how to play this game here, you should take the opportunity. Although I feel that i'm overdoing it  🤷🏻‍♂️

[Liesel Weppen]

39 minutes ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

I do miss having to find various parts for weapons to assemble them.

Yeah, i somehow miss that too. But if i really think about it, in the end it was pure storage bloat and absolute micromanagement.

 

Quote

I miss being able to improve quality on items.

Yeah, random stats are not the ideal solution too. Needing to build 5 items in hope at least one has good stats ist suboptimal.

However the spam crafting to improve item quality was an even worse mechanic.

 

Quote

Currently my only gripe with A19 is the damn vultures. They are everywhere and if you are in a vehicle suddenly they move as fast as jet airplanes. They also bug out and circle for HOURS and then suddenly they realize they are supposed to attack. Normally when you are fighting a horde. They are SO annoying!

Vultures are attracted by vehicles. If you are in a vehicle, they will start following you and attack you once you leave the vehicle. Any vehicle is fast than the vultures. For the bicycle you have to "shift" to be faster.

Without a vehicle they will not attack as long as you are on full health. They will attack if you are NOT on full health. That makes them really dangerous if you got hit in combat.

They are not everywhere. They are (iirc) in dessert, wasteland and burnt forest. There are no vultures in forest and snow biome. But be carefull on biome borders, if your base is only 50 blocks away from a dessert, vultures may spawn there and come to you.

 

Improving eg athletics by running was also meaningless back than. It would be interesting now, because people can't spend nights running in circles, because that uses food, and food is now scarce in early game.

[Sydious]

I really didn't want to say this but maybe you should go back in the day and have to search for the forge book.  It was a BIG thing back in the day.  Today all you have to do is the starter quest for your first 4 points.

Try that and come back and tell us how you feel...

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I have been attacked constantly while on full health. If they are not supposed to, that is broken. They also catch up to my jeep and motorcycle all the time. I'll be on the way from my compound to a city or POI and suddenly there is a vulture over the passenger seat hitting my jeep, trying to attack my buddy. I can outrun them with any vehicle if I sprint (floor it) but that burns fuel fast, so our method is that the second we see a vulture, we stop and get out to kill it.

 

Also, we are playing in the desert. I know they are not in every biome but they are constantly on us (every few minutes) in the desert.

 

I had forgotten about Daggerfall-style stats. I loved those in that I could increase a skill by using said skill. I LOVE that style of mechanic in any game. As for exploiting as you said (running in circles?) I did not know that was a thing, but I prefer bashing heads with a sledgehammer anyway.

[Liesel Weppen]

15 minutes ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

Also, we are playing in the desert. I know they are not in every biome but they are constantly on us (every few minutes) in the desert.

Vultures are a threat in the desert. If you want to live there, you have to deal with them. It's like complaining about land mines in wasteland. If you don't like that, go somewhere else.

 

Quote

I had forgotten about Daggerfall-style stats. I loved those in that I could increase a skill by using said skill. I LOVE that style of mechanic in any game. As for exploiting as you said (running in circles?) I did not know that was a thing, but I prefer bashing heads with a sledgehammer anyway.

Yep, exploiting was the main reason why it was removed. Back than in A15/A16 first day task was get some wood and spend the night sitting in a cabin, endlessly crafting and scrapping bows/clubs, to improve your weapon. If you've done that, run in circles inside your cabin to improve your atlethics skill. That was especially done, because there was nothing else you could safely do during the first few nights. Food was no real issue back then, now it is. So at least people couldn't spam atlethics by running in circles so easy anymore.

[Rince]

Vultures are so annoying. Once they attacked me in the forest, in the first week or so.

When they attack you they pass thought you and are hard to it with melee weapons.

And they inflict you with infection or injuries pretty fast, even if you are full on steel armor.

 

Do not make me talk about the times they get stuck in some POI and you must keep searching for them to complete the mission.

 

They're a tiny package of pure annoyance.

[Sydious]

5 minutes ago, Rince said:

They're a tiny package of pure annoyance.

Agreed 

[JCrook1028]

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

In A19 everyone has a hordebase. They still come only from one side and basicially only follow one path.

That's just plain untrue. I do my hordes out on the street with spikes lining each side of the road and you can clearly watch the spawn points rotate to all 4 sides as the night goes on.

[Boidster]

15 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

Study Lean and Six Sigma

I rolled my eyes so hard three little old ladies showed up for Bingo. A small independent game design company is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on SS consultants? Whose primary recommendation will be...hire more consultants. The concept of continuous process improvement is fine; Six Sigma is a moneymaker for Six Sigma consultants only. Just like Emergenetics. Corporate VPs love that @%$#.

 

I'd love to hear how a Six Sigma Black Belt would have decided the perk level for forges needs adjusting. Ow my eyeballs again. GO AWAY LADIES THIS IS NOT BINGO NIGHT!

[JCrook1028]

3 hours ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

I have been attacked constantly while on full health. If they are not supposed to, that is broken.

Wild vultures attack if you are in a vehicle or injured. POI vultures attack regardless once you wake them up. If you have vultures in the wild attacking you on foot and uninjured than you are dealing with a bug. Even wandering horde vultures follow the wild vulture rules. They will circle overhead and not attack.

[Ramethzer0]

15 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

Tip to developers, read the forum post and stop going off on a tangent. 

Having known (and empathized with) a few gaming developers in my past, wait till you see their Hot Tip checklist for players on what not to do in the forums when complaining about how developers have "ruined" their own game. 

 

Hot Tip for you:  Aren't you glad that you can still EVEN ACCESS a16?  I mean.. that's pretty noteworthy considering you can't do that with the majority of other games.   This is coming from someone whom enjoys and has both versions downloaded

[Samcharles]

Six Sigma is most helpful in manufacturing environments. It's not really worth it for TFP.

 

The forge..I usually have it by the third week easily by unlocking it with the perk. I could have it sooner but I choose to put point in other things first. Not sure why you are having so much trouble acquiring it.

[Liesel Weppen]

5 minutes ago, Samcharles said:

 Not sure why you are having so much trouble acquiring it.

He did not even read the skill descriptions and just assumed they were the same as in A16. Also iirc back then you couldn't learn the forge by skills, you needed to find the receipe. So he obviously quick started A19, hasn't found a forge receipe within the first days/week and then rage quitted, not even noticing that he could have had a forge by day 1.

Not to mention that that also could have happened in A16. I also had really bad starts in older alphas, where i just have not found the receipe as early as i wanted to.