Okay soo stone tools are everywhere...whats your opinion on this?

[Liesel Weppen]

15 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Im not sure about how the situation is currently but it seems kinda confirmed that if you dont raise your gamestage fast enough you can only hope for absolute luck to get weapons before the first horde strikes.

You obviously don't get it: Raising your gamestage will make the bloodmoon MORE DIFFICULT. If you do not raise your gamestage fast you probably are not able to find firearms early, but the bloodmoon will also be EASIER!

So the problem probably more likely is: People are minmax-raceing their gamestage like no tomorrow, got it high enough shortly before bloodmoon but no time left to also FIND a firearm. Then the bloodmoon will be tougher and you are not yet prepared equally.

 

People race for firearms because they think bloodmoon is difficult. But the bloodmoon is not difficult, it becomes difficult BECAUSE people are racing for firearms and therefore actively push their gamestage instead of looking for the really important things in the early days.

[Solomon]

10 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

You obviously don't get it: Raising your gamestage will make the bloodmoon MORE DIFFICULT. If you do not raise your gamestage fast you probably are not able to find firearms early, but the bloodmoon will also be EASIER!

So the problem probably more likely is: People are minmax-raceing their gamestage like no tomorrow, got it high enough shortly before bloodmoon but no time left to also FIND a firearm. Then the bloodmoon will be tougher and you are not yet prepared equally.

 

People race for firearms because they think bloodmoon is difficult. But the bloodmoon is not difficult, it becomes difficult BECAUSE people are racing for firearms and therefore actively push their gamestage instead of looking for the really important things in the early days.

But arent people raising their gamestage for the sole reason that the stone age deal is hella boring?

 

Im mean even OP here complained about how he finds the current game boring which leads to people rushing the gamestage just so they can play an actual challanging game but because the gamestage tying is still in place you need to be simultenously lucky enough to get guns fast and manage to get them before bloodmoon comes.

[Liesel Weppen]

12 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Im mean even OP here complained about how he finds the current game boring which leads to people rushing the gamestage just so they can play an actual challanging game but because the gamestage tying is still in place you need to be simultenously lucky enough to get guns fast and manage to get them before bloodmoon comes.

Hmm, from what i understand people are just lazy. They complain about not wanting to play with stone tools, but thats not really regarded to difficulty. Stone age is basically almost melee, what imho is more challenging then rushing through a POI with firearms. People don't want a challenging game, they want firearms to make it easier. Or they complain about "realism". Not long ago people complained about the game being to fast, it was boring if you find an AK on day 3...

There are many different oppinions. For example i like the early game. I usually quit my games shortly after i got the good weapons. In my last game on day ~40 i had a lvl5 AK, a Lvl3 assault rifle, a lvl6 pistol, a lvl4 marksmans rifle... Yeah i know, there would be even better weapons to come, but that was the point the game started to become boring for me. BTW: I found everything, i haven't crafted a single tool or weapon.

[RipClaw]

44 minutes ago, Solomon said:

But arent people raising their gamestage for the sole reason that the stone age deal is hella boring?

It's only boring if the fun for you is just looting POIs and killing zombies.

45 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Im mean even OP here complained about how he finds the current game boring which leads to people rushing the gamestage just so they can play an actual challanging game but because the gamestage tying is still in place you need to be simultenously lucky enough to get guns fast and manage to get them before bloodmoon comes.

Challenging is a subjective term. For example, a gun makes it less challenging for me. I prefer melee combat.

[Solomon]

50 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Hmm, from what i understand people are just lazy. They complain about not wanting to play with stone tools, but thats not really regarded to difficulty. Stone age is basically almost melee, what imho is more challenging then rushing through a POI with firearms. People don't want a challenging game, they want firearms to make it easier. Or they complain about "realism". Not long ago people complained about the game being to fast, it was boring if you find an AK on day 3...

There are many different oppinions. For example i like the early game. I usually quit my games shortly after i got the good weapons. In my last game on day ~40 i had a lvl5 AK, a Lvl3 assault rifle, a lvl6 pistol, a lvl4 marksmans rifle... Yeah i know, there would be even better weapons to come, but that was the point the game started to become boring for me. BTW: I found everything, i haven't crafted a single tool or weapon.

Honestly my favorite go to weapon the stun baton and the junk turret (i love this silly thing) they are all i use monstly. The hunting rifle is my ranged screamer removal, the ak is my fallback weapon when im swarmed. I dont really like shotguns or the blunderbuss and as far as melee goes our game is practically limited to various impact weapon what are boring as hell.

 

Neither of these drop on stone age and there are no interesting weapons for that stage, so for me the only thing to do is to raise the gamestage fast to the point where i actually can find the weapon i like. 

 

 

I also like crafting but the current system kinda makes it hard to appreciate it when every and all more advanced weapons need weapon parts. If i could craft each weapon part like the trigger, chamber and all that it would be more natural.

 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

2 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Neither of these drop on stone age and there are no interesting weapons for that stage, so for me the only thing to do is to raise the gamestage fast to the point where i actually can find the weapon i like. 

Like i said, there is no real argument, your only "argument" is "but i don't want to play melee, but i want to play exactly like this".

 

2 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I also like crafting but the current system kinda makes it hard to appreciate it when every and all more advanced weapons need weapon parts. If i could craft each weapon part like the trigger, chamber and all that it would be more natural.

I don't know what version you are playing, but the different weapon parts you mention have been removed after A16 (or 17?) ages ago. Now there is only one generic "parts" item for each weapon class. The only thing you need for ALL automatic rifles is the single item "automatic rifle parts". It doesn't matter if you want to craft an AK, a aussault rifle or a M60, all of them just require this item to craft them.

I don't know if you now can find just parts for such weapon independently of gamestage, but since you don't find complete weapons early there is also nothing you can scrap to get those parts. But that's the idea of the change: You should not get your preferred equipment too early, because that would just be massively overpowered, you have to play your way to them. And yes, the game forces you to do so. Like the skill system is basically a crippled class system, like e.g. if you want to go for mining, you "have" to use shotguns OR "waste" skillpoints for a dual build. And also investing points for the stone age weapons is a waste, as you probably won't use them anymore once you found other weapons, like e.g i prefer clubs (strength) early game, but later i prefer using the marksmans rifle (perception).

[Boidster]

3 hours ago, Solomon said:

People are commenting left and right how its still possible to randomly loot shotguns on your first day.

You can loot a shotgun by GS12. If you make GS12 on day one, then totally possible. TFP gave all of us the probabilities; we just have to read it.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QdvwJZQG8RxbQi-G0fQPx5Kr3pEddBcJK2kYy86OpPk/edit#gid=603484266

[Liesel Weppen]

16 minutes ago, Boidster said:

You can loot a shotgun by GS12. If you make GS12 on day one, then totally possible. TFP gave all of us the probabilities; we just have to read it.

Getting to gamestage on day 1 would require to reach level 9 or 10 on day 1... right? (playerlevel + days alive) * 1.2?

Nearly impossible... perhaps for hardcoregrinder and 120 minute days or increased XP gain settings.

 

 

Quote

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QdvwJZQG8RxbQi-G0fQPx5Kr3pEddBcJK2kYy86OpPk/edit#gid=603484266

Nice spreadsheet. It almost exactly reperesents the progress of my last playthrough. I was a little slower, iirc i was gamestage 92 on day 40.

[Boidster]

Hey I didn't say it was easy, just providing the actual facts controlling loot. The spreadsheet is the one linked from loot.xml. TFP's own worksheet used to auto-generate the XML loot tables.

[Biscoitoso]

Play missions, get some dukes and buy it from the trader. Or just play missions until you gain acess to missions Tier 2-3, missions from these tier have weapons as a reward.

And until you find a fire weapon, use barricades, hatches and 1/2 blocks to fight with zombies.

[Bashtiks]

It it is what it is ..

Current loot progression aint fun for me but if I want a gun in first days I do some qusts and buy one from trader ..

 

Everyone is beating on same one "half alive horse" in multiple forum threads .. its feels like different rwg all over the place but things in them are always the same .. 😂

[Laz Man]

Stone age weapons are viable early game.  I would guess people are just use to junking their stone age stuff and getting other weapons sooner.

 

There is absolutely no gameplay reason why anyone needs to rush past stoneage quickly. (PvE)

 

It is a immersion/preference concern at best.

[Solomon]

2 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Like i said, there is no real argument, your only "argument" is "but i don't want to play melee, but i want to play exactly like this".

Just what part of the stun baton says its not a melee weapon?

 

2 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I don't know what version you are playing, but the different weapon parts you mention have been removed after A16 (or 17?) ages ago. Now there is only one generic "parts" item for each weapon class. The only thing you need for ALL automatic rifles is the single item "automatic rifle parts". It doesn't matter if you want to craft an AK, a aussault rifle or a M60, all of them just require this item to craft them.

It was a suggestion, i didnt even know there was a system like this back in the days.

 

2 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I don't know if you now can find just parts for such weapon independently of gamestage, but since you don't find complete weapons early there is also nothing you can scrap to get those parts. But that's the idea of the change: You should not get your preferred equipment too early, because that would just be massively overpowered, you have to play your way to them. And yes, the game forces you to do so. Like the skill system is basically a crippled class system, like e.g. if you want to go for mining, you "have" to use shotguns OR "waste" skillpoints for a dual build. And also investing points for the stone age weapons is a waste, as you probably won't use them anymore once you found other weapons, like e.g i prefer clubs (strength) early game, but later i prefer using the marksmans rifle (perception).

Yeah but the play to get them is the exact problem here.

 

The stone age chapter is both slow and boring for many, so they do what me and most people who have the same view do and we either console command our gamestage up or play with increased amount of exp gain so you level up fast as hell till you get what you need.

 

The whole point of the complaints is that the stage sytem is best when its entirely removed but that now comes with a horrible disadvantage because unlike in A18 where the loot is kind of random here in A19 i know exactly what items and on what tier will i get because the stages come with them. 

[Solomon]

The new looting what forcefully locks you into specific stages with specific drops really rubs me the wrong way.

 

The whole idea breaks immersion on multiple points from trying to tell us that the survivors of the apocalypse were cavemen, that they thought stone spears are valuable enough to close them into gun safes and finally that by just waiting enough the contents of these containers magically transform into better equipment (damm alchemists!). The slow startup also doesnt add in any gameplay value its just stretches out the gameplay with grind (F2P game strategy) and adds no content to justify the idea.

 

I generally think that we have too few items for the stone age or in general for all ages to justify the need of staged loot we have a knife, axe, shovel, hammer, spear, club, the blunderbuss and a bow, thats 8 items in total what even if we only get 1 per container and they never repeat means we have all of them in 8 cantainers.

Sure theres not much of the others too but i think that should change too.

 

Repeating the title, what is your opinion of this?

[Roland]

Your poll is funny and sarcastic which, being me, I can appreciate but it really makes it a terrible poll. Polls should be as neutral as possible and then in your comments in the thread go wild with the snark. Some people won’t participate because of how you slanted all the answer choices...lol

 

At any rate, we know that greater variety of primitive weapons is coming and they are currently working on loot tables. @Galifrey1965 made a good suggestion in another thread for TFP doing another pass over the loot tables to make the loot containers have more junk appropriate to their setting rather than just all having stone tools. I agree and hope that as TFP continues to work on the loot progression they will make such adjustments. 

[Galifrey1965]

8 minutes ago, Roland said:

Your poll is funny and sarcastic which, being me, I can appreciate but it really makes it a terrible poll. Polls should be as neutral as possible and then in your comments in the thread go wild with the snark. Some people won’t participate because of how you slanted all the answer choices...lol

 

At any rate, we know that greater variety of primitive weapons is coming and they are currently working on loot tables. @Galifrey1965 made a good suggestion in another thread for TFP doing another pass over the loot tables to make the loot containers have more junk appropriate to their setting rather than just all having stone tools. I agree and hope that as TFP continues to work on the loot progression they will make such adjustments. 

Why thank you sir, nice to see constructive feedback is recognised by some ❤️ 

[leaderdog]

I really don't understand the persistence to add more stone items or stone items in loot containers at all.  The only stone loot that should be in crates would be a sharpening stone... but that's not in vanilla, and the better ones aren't made from stone either.

 

I find it really hard to start over now because it's not enjoyable to me.  I understand there are some that do enjoy it and I'm sure they're happy, and that's great, but it should be something that's easily removed via the xml for those of us who find this slow level limitation boring and not worth playing, which I don't believe it is at the moment.

 

I prefer to use melee weapons, and a bat should be something you'd find in almost any home in America.  I'm fine without using guns and can go a long time without them, but looting crates is virtually pointless as you're not likely to get anything useful and the number of times I got 3 stone axes in a single working stiff crate was extremely frustrating. 

 

I agree and had mentioned the first week a19 came out that the loot table should never have stone tools in it, and to just have usable other items in them.  Not just lumber, but items that you can use now, or later in game.  I'm glad to hear that is something the pimps will revisit.

 

A lot of good things in this alpha, but I feel this artificial limiting of game play to slow down the progression is overshadowing much of that.

[Zombizie]

I don’t mind stone tools In loot however the way it works now is trash, the whole thing that made looting fun was the randomness of it, now that joy of a big find is gone.  Same @%$*#! every play through 

[Xtrakicking]

Honestly, I've always thought that stone stuff should only be craftable. It's supposed to be makeshift stuff that the player is encouraged to make at first so they can survive till they find better stuff, which is why they're cheap to make. Sure, maybe have them spawn in trash bags or abandoned survivor's backpacks, but they don't belong anywhere else in my opinion.

[leaderdog]

Also, when you have a level 6 stone axe with mods in it, at level 40 when you get a level 1 or level 2 iron pick or axe, you're still better off using the level 6 stone axe.  That's not progression either.  You're essentially waiting until you get a green iron tool before it's actually an upgrade.  Which is also tied to gamestage so you're looking at several more levels before you get something worthwhile.  This repeats itself with steel tools as well, Until you get one good enough to add multiple mods it's better to use the previous tier tool with maxed mods.

 

so that "excitement" from finding something better, is put off, diminished or simply no longer there because you're just scrapping it anyways.

[Boidster]

I've always been a bit surprised that primitive tools/weapons can accept mods at all.

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Your poll is funny and sarcastic which, being me, I can appreciate but it really makes it a terrible poll. Polls should be as neutral as possible and then in your comments in the thread go wild with the snark. Some people won’t participate because of how you slanted all the answer choices...lol

I know my questions are kind of sarcastic and have a joking approach, the reason is because i think that if you answer any of the choices you should be able to reason why you think so.

 

I personally cant find any reason why would i ever find stone shovels in a working stiff sealed crate apart from saying they were in a museum, the answers i put up reflect this and if someone has a different reason they can argue it.

 

I also too liked @Galifrey1965's suggestion, its a natural aproach what makes sense and i appreciate ideas like that. I played around with that idea too and it would fix soo many problems.

[Galifrey1965]

1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

Honestly, I've always thought that stone stuff should only be craftable. It's supposed to be makeshift stuff that the player is encouraged to make at first so they can survive till they find better stuff, which is why they're cheap to make. Sure, maybe have them spawn in trash bags or abandoned survivor's backpacks, but they don't belong anywhere else in my opinion.

Apparently I have reached my "like" quota for the day, so consider your post liked.

42 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I know my questions are kind of sarcastic and have a joking approach, the reason is because i think that if you answer any of the choices you should be able to reason why you think so.

 

I personally cant find any reason why would i ever find stone shovels in a working stiff sealed crate apart from saying they were in a museum, the answers i put up reflect this and if someone has a different reason they can argue it.

 

I also too liked @Galifrey1965's suggestion, its a natural aproach what makes sense and i appreciate ideas like that. I played around with that idea too and it would fix soo many problems.

Thank you Solomon, I thought so as well, maybe it was coming with the loot rebalance anyway, but I like to think it was a well thought out suggestion based on actually playing the game and experiencing what happens with other loot.

1 hour ago, leaderdog said:

Also, when you have a level 6 stone axe with mods in it, at level 40 when you get a level 1 or level 2 iron pick or axe, you're still better off using the level 6 stone axe.  That's not progression either.  You're essentially waiting until you get a green iron tool before it's actually an upgrade.  Which is also tied to gamestage so you're looking at several more levels before you get something worthwhile.  This repeats itself with steel tools as well, Until you get one good enough to add multiple mods it's better to use the previous tier tool with maxed mods.

 

so that "excitement" from finding something better, is put off, diminished or simply no longer there because you're just scrapping it anyways.

150% agree!

 

 

Too many good comments in this thread to cover them all but find myself agreeing with pretty much all of them.

[uselessjunkaccount]

I feel like the problem with A19 loot stages is that way too much content is trying to be squeezed out of the first half of the total technology available, especially with the stone stage. What I would like to see with further development is the addition of more high quality technology along with the addition of new, tougher zombies as the game stage progresses.

 

I don't think there's enough content there at the moment to justify the extended stone age. If nothing else, I hope the addition of new quests/factions in coming alphas will flesh out this stage of the game more. These trader quests were always repetitive by design but at least you got the benefit of the loot at these POIs in earlier alphas. But after getting literally hundreds of useless stone items it becomes boring really fast. At least give some shell of an instanced story there behind these quests so I feel like I have some agency in the game because at the moment it feels like I have been put on rails in the game without any of the usual theme-park style benefits you get out of open world RPGs.

 

I don't mind the loot stages in theory but feel like the game can't support it yet. Worst of all I feel like this is going to be extremely detrimental for replayability.

[wizard puke]

There is something funny about the fact that I have multiple battery banks and a bunch of trigger plates and stuff but I haven't even found a brown pistol yet. I am safe though because I have an entire storage crate that is entirely just blunderbusses (blunderbi?) so I can fire 8 times before I need to hide and reload for 3 minutes.

 

I am having fun either way. The pace itself is good. Maybe a little too reliant on traders now but I think it will just take getting used to.

 

I finally (day 10) got a bike and a helmet light going so now I can recklessly run around at night until I get killed by a wolf or run into a landmine or think a bear is a rock or something.