Colin248 Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 im afraid im one of them people that enjoyed the pathing of the zombies but now it seams to have gone back to being realy stupid. they just attack what ever wall they get too. so theres no point in making elaborate mazes and such anymore, and we are back to just walls surrounding your base, with layers and layers of spikes. did they change this in one of the 17.X patches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 It’s a mix. Some zombies will abandon the complex path to you and go into destruction mode. It’s random so there could be times when it seems they are all stupid instead of some. Bandits will be the smart ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 "Did they make zombies stupider?" Were they ever smart? I've made the same base over and over since the very beginning during Alpha 1.0, and you know what... it still works as great then as it does now. And the devs keep saying that will change with the next big update. In fact, my simple base design is so effective, I decided to take the risk of making it as delicate as possible by having the entire base supported on 1 block (sort of...)... so all they needed to do was break that 1 block to destroy the entire base... yet they still failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 /// Bandits will be the smart ones. Will they jump out the window when i walk into the room? (Roland, i'm sorry - i wanted to, i couldn't help myself , i hope I'm not annoying you too much - i wouldn't want to ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katitof Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 It’s a mix. Some zombies will abandon the complex path to you and go into destruction mode. It’s random so there could be times when it seems they are all stupid instead of some. Bandits will be the smart ones. Boy do I wonder how many years to alpha will getting the AI right add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unholyjoe Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 while most will argue at me on this but the fact still remains... AI isnt dumber... the players are adapting/learning/watching what the AI does. more stuff can be added to randomize it but people will learn it and exploit it and call it dumb. Fox is right... were zombies ever smart... well... no.. they do what code tells them but people adapt (even tho they claim they dont want to). I for one would rather see AI be un-predictable as much as possible but we have to accept fact... there is only so much that can be done... even on all the non voxel games that have good ai... it is still limited and people do learn them as well.. my 2.000001 cents worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 Of course, in order to get a chalenge with the enemy - you need to go to PvP. No one will ever make an AI smart enough to be fooled. But it is possible to make AI sufficient to stop being criticized. For example, i had no reproach about the AI that was in Alpha1 - A14. And not because he was "smart" but because he was fit for the task. Basically, now everyone is asked to do AI is not "smart"... but - not stupid! (they're just not quite right voice/compose their views, intrinsically ) About the stupidity of it - now everyone is talking, it is an indicator. /// AI isnt dumber... the players are adapting/learning/watching what the AI does. /// I agree with you, but it sounds like an excuse... because there are AI codes that work fine. Full of examples, in particular - in the past 7dtd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khulkhuum Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 We're not talking about a simple "run after the player and strike" AI, nor a bit more sophisticated "run after player, attack/dodge/sidestep randomly". The more complex you make things, the more intricate coding it requires. Still, it's coding like unholyjoe stated, an algorithm that can be to some extent predicted if you put in time to watch how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 while most will argue at me on this but the fact still remains... AI isnt dumber... the players are adapting/learning/watching what the AI does. more stuff can be added to randomize it but people will learn it and exploit it and call it dumb. Fox is right... were zombies ever smart... well... no.. they do what code tells them but people adapt (even tho they claim they dont want to). I for one would rather see AI be un-predictable as much as possible but we have to accept fact... there is only so much that can be done... even on all the non voxel games that have good ai... it is still limited and people do learn them as well.. my 2.000001 cents worth That's all true. What needs to be done though is defining the line between easily manipulating AI and outsmarting it. We should be able to outsmart it. If not, it probably would be a bad game. Likewise, doing something non-trivial like placing a few blocks a certain way makes for an equally bad game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 go ahead, outwit it... adapt, learn, observe... you can even sit down and think moreover, the work of intelligence here is nothing more than a fly... and of course - the hard work of Pathfinding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 Maybe smart/dumb is the wrong way to think about it. It’s more about how much information the zombies are allowed to have. In 17.0 their pathing was long and they all stuck to their pathing and remembered their target for plenty of time to reach you. This meant that if you sat on the roof of the hospital and spawned in 50 zombies on the ground and shot at them they would all path through the hospital and break through at the best place to come out on the roof to attack you. Now some zombies give up before tracing the long path. Some give up almost immediately so you have zombies trying to break a wall rather than simply walk through an open doorway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 "Did they make zombies stupider?" Were they ever smart? I've made the same base over and over since the very beginning during Alpha 1.0, and you know what... it still works as great then as it does now. And the devs keep saying that will change with the next big update. In fact, my simple base design is so effective, I decided to take the risk of making it as delicate as possible by having the entire base supported on 1 block (sort of...)... so all they needed to do was break that 1 block to destroy the entire base... yet they still failed. Is it because the zombies can't reach that one block because of overhanging blocks? Or because they make endless rounds on your ramp? It surely can't be the spikes alone if you are defending on normal or harder difficulty settings in a horde night in later game stages. Especially the ramps seems to be a problem that is not fully solved yet. I noticed this recently when I put a ramp that should have been completely useless as an access ramp in the vicinity of a horde base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khulkhuum Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 Reminds me of one of my experiments in early A17, where i made a raised route (blocks of wood 4 blocks up from the ground with support pillars every x blocks) with a ramp accessing it. It was such a good design, until i dug up the block in front of the ramp and decided to put spikes in the pit (for additional damage before they get on the ramp). After the spikes were destroyed they couldn't get on the ramp and started mauling on the supports of the route. As my "hideout" went crumbling down, the rest of the night i spent running around and shooting with my bow, placing down barbed wire to slow 'em down. One little detail, so much difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 From what I understand when a zombie spawns it has a random roll that determines if its smart, middle ground or, a16 and below beelineing stupid zombie. It added variety as you can't force them down a path as easy. Though I do wish zombies would see traps as air blocks, as I am tired of zombies somehow avoiding all my traps like they know they are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin248 Posted May 16, 2019 Author Share Posted May 16, 2019 See i liked the consistent basis on there path finding of alpha 17. course it could be exploited (like the screenshot of the fellows base above) but the fact i can make elabrotate mazes, trap filled kill zones and reinforce my base to a point where they have to run through a gauntlet, and i need to hope my defences work out was, engageing. it ment i kept on enhanceing and tweeking my trap lined maze till i had something that could consistently hold the line and keep my safe as the horde got bigger and meaner. but now, the AI has changed again, and all that knowledge i learned from beginning of alpha 17 is out the window. we are now back to walls with spikes round your complex, rather then comeing up with nifty traps for the hordes to stumble into. for the sake of argument i may actuly go take screenshots of what my last base set up was like. im fine with zombies being stupid, im fine with them being smart, im fine with a middle ground. but now all these sleeper zombies just consistently ruin the building im in because they are too lazy to exit there cupboard, and instead choose to wail on the wall behind them. not the cupboard door and emerge. the flow of the building progression is ♥♥♥♥ed. and thats to say nothing about horde nights. i can adapt and change, but this seams like a step backwards due to the innecent bitching and whining from players who disliked the fact the zombies could navigate to them now. (and again, it could be exploited, it was by no means perfect.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin248 Posted May 16, 2019 Author Share Posted May 16, 2019 here are a few screenshots of the last base i made when the patch first came out. a long corridor of death, not efficient, but it worked. with dart traps at the far end, blades that wittled down the enemys health at the cost of there durability, and shocking traps to keep them held still. but now this will no longer work, as the zombies just.... decide to say ♥♥♥♥ it and tear down a wall in a matter of seconds. litteral seconds, unless the damage they do to blocks has been changed to compromise with the lack of intelect? but i somehow doubt they have... in fact i know they havnt, as when i last got to day 7, they tore so many holes in the building i was in that it just wasnt funny. we stood no chance because the rules had been quickly changed. i suppose my big gripe about this is the lack of consistency. just what is the aim for there general intellect? can we get a settled score on that at the least? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 Is it because the zombies can't reach that one block because of overhanging blocks? Or because they make endless rounds on your ramp? It surely can't be the spikes alone if you are defending on normal or harder difficulty settings in a horde night in later game stages. Especially the ramps seems to be a problem that is not fully solved yet. I noticed this recently when I put a ramp that should have been completely useless as an access ramp in the vicinity of a horde base. I never just rely on any 1 thing alone as blood moon does get overwhelming. But between my skill in headshots with rifles and the layers of spikes, nothing ever comes anywhere near the base. They maybe get past 1 or 2 layers, occasionally 3, but by then, I've started on the electrics and now they're back to 1 or 2 layers again. Not once have they ever reached the base to do any damage, I don't even keep concrete mix in my inventory for repairs after blood moon anymore, just some metal for the spikes and wood reinforcements on the base cuz the spitters. So I have no idea if they're even able to reach that 1 block supporting it all, my guess is probably not, crawlers could though. But I imagine with all that weight above... it really doesn't take much to collapse it all. That upside down pyramid design is actually a terrible design when it comes to limitations, like adding electrics to it, ramp needing to be much closer, not to mention the constant fear of losing it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 my 2.000001 cents worth Unholyjoe must still be using his old 386's maths co-processor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warmer Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 I for one would rather see AI be un-predictable as much as possible but we have to accept fact... there is only so much that can be done... even on all the non voxel games that have good ai... it is still limited and people do learn them as well.. This is how I would like to see it as well. In my mind I imagine the zed that turned 5 minutes ago still has enough of a neural network intact to plan a decent path and will try to find you longer, whereas the zed that has been shambling and baking in the sun for a month will be as smart as an amoeba due to the rotting brain. The old Zed will be more likely to path STRAIGHT to you regardless of obstacles. A mix of both makes the game much more unpredictable, and in my mind far more fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 This is how I would like to see it as well. In my mind I imagine the zed that turned 5 minutes ago still has enough of a neural network intact to plan a decent path and will try to find you longer, whereas the zed that has been shambling and baking in the sun for a month will be as smart as an amoeba due to the rotting brain. The old Zed will be more likely to path STRAIGHT to you regardless of obstacles. A mix of both makes the game much more unpredictable, and in my mind far more fun! I expect a sea of....err, posts... when AI becomes much more unpredictable, since it will force players to adapt from a single predictable path, requiring a single predictable defense strategy, to a more "defense in depth" look at bases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 I expect a sea of....err, posts... when AI becomes much more unpredictable, since it will force players to adapt from a single predictable path, requiring a single predictable defense strategy, to a more "defense in depth" look at bases. The question is how unpredictable the behavior becomes. An example of completely unpredictable behavior would be if a zombie happened to stop somewhere and start destroying blocks for no apparent reason. Unpredictable can mean anything. The zombie can run in direct line to the player and destroy all blocks between him and the player, the zombie starts to cut down all trees in the area, he runs behind the base and destroys the wall or the zombie stops the attack and goes to Buzz Bar and drinks a beer there. There should be just some basic rules for the behavior of zombies so that no uniform behavior is given but nevertheless a certain predictability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 The question is how unpredictable the behavior becomes. An example of completely unpredictable behavior would be if a zombie happened to stop somewhere and start destroying blocks for no apparent reason. Unpredictable can mean anything. The zombie can run in direct line to the player and destroy all blocks between him and the player, the zombie starts to cut down all trees in the area, he runs behind the base and destroys the wall or the zombie stops the attack and goes to Buzz Bar and drinks a beer there. There should be just some basic rules for the behavior of zombies so that no uniform behavior is given but nevertheless a certain predictability. Sooooo... Like in A16 with a bit better pathfinding then. (finding entrances, running up stairs and stuff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Sooooo... Like in A16 with a bit better pathfinding then. (finding entrances, running up stairs and stuff) Something like that. In A16, for example, I had a funnel base and had to dig deep trenches to get the zombies to go into an entrance. In A17 they do that by themselves and I only secure the walls with some iron spikes in case a zombie decides to hit the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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