Horde Night is DEAD

[pApA^LeGBa]

Hiding on rooftops lasts very long. There is enough massive buildings for this. Nerdpole your way on the roof if you want no effort bloodnights. Did it once for the first 8 hordes. Only switched because we had someone who loves to build in our group.

 

Tried it on Day 77 in my SP. No problem.

 

So yeah let´s stop that. It´s not intended that we can get over bloodnights without any effort. And yes it´s no effort to clean the roof of let´s say the higashi tower compared to build a base from scratch that can survive on day 56.

 

It´s even more work to get a nice undergroundbase....

 

So F digging Zombies as long as rooftops are the easy way to go.

[RipClaw]

Hiding on rooftops lasts very long. There is enough massive buildings for this. Nerdpole your way on the roof if you want no effort bloodnights. Did it once for the first 8 hordes. Only switched because we had someone who loves to build in our group.

 

For me a horde would be simply incomplete without a self-built base.

 

I can understand when players fight the Horde on foot because anything else would be too boring for them but just standing on a roof, throwing molotow cocktails and shooting at the zombies would be too stupid for me. That requires neither creativity nor planning.

[meganoth]

Hiding on rooftops lasts very long. There is enough massive buildings for this.

 

Didn't Madmole talk about a new zombie recently (for A18) who will self-explode and do massive damage to blocks?

 

A bug(?) of the current SI system is that you often can destroy all except one block of the ground level of many buildings without them collapsing. It seems a bit random whether blocks that have their foundation destroyed get re-evaluated. But I also had the impression it got slightly better between A16 and A17, subjectively it seems buildings collapse earlier.

 

Maybe some bugfixing or adapting the algorithm can also make the rooftops much less safe in the later game. I think they should still be an option early game if you put some work in.

[Lanadon Conners]

There is a fine line between what the Devs need to add/fix/adjust in a game and Player Responsibility. Because you can cheat at Solitaire doesn't mean card companies should glue the deck of cards together or if you can't play Checkers without cheating, then Parker Brothers HAS to make all the Boards with Sliders.

 

Things like "Nerdpoling": SP- Don't do it if you don't want too.. MP- Chop the bottom frame out when they are 4 stories up.. then you do all the floors collecting the loot and exp

 

Rooftop Hiding: Great for early game but with Bandits on their way, just how safe will they be when they can shoot from adjacent rooftops

 

Driving all night to avoid Hordes: You use up your gas.. I will collect all this EXP.

 

With the "Horde Night" adjustment slider, Horde Night isn't Dead.. It was in the players control to chose all along

[RestInPieces]

There is a fine line between what the Devs need to add/fix/adjust in a game and Player Responsibility.

 

This is true for "meta" choices, not in-game choices. All the games you mentioned have rules you have to follow in-game, which makes for a solid game design. A dev will fix exploits because they allow the player to bend the game's rules while playing the game. But in the "meta"/game-irrelevant case where the player cheats or logs off, there is obviously nothing the dev can do about it and it's silly to discuss about that possibility in the first place.

 

Driving all night to avoid Hordes: You use up your gas.. I will collect all this EXP.

 

So many things wrong with the above sentence.

I don't know which is the most criminally unintuitive option for the player to choose: "just skip the mechanic like it never existed" or "engage in the mechanic to grind XP". The former option in this choice, is by far the most obvious one, because it is cost-free, risk-free and vastly more convenient. Using up a little gas, which is so abundant, cannot even be considered a cost, especially compared to facing the horde. And choices with an obvious option, are not real choices in the first place.

[Lanadon Conners]

This is true for "meta" choices, not in-game choices. All the games you mentioned have rules you have to follow in-game, which makes for a solid game design. A dev will fix exploits because they allow the player to bend the game's rules while playing the game. But in the "meta"/game-irrelevant case where the player cheats or logs off, there is obviously nothing the dev can do about it and it's silly to discuss about that possibility in the first place.

 

 

 

So many things wrong with the above sentence.

I don't know which is the most criminally unintuitive option for the player to choose: "just skip the mechanic like it never existed" or "engage in the mechanic to grind XP". The former option in this choice, is by far the most obvious one, because it is cost-free, risk-free and vastly more convenient. Using up a little gas, which is so abundant, cannot even be considered a cost, especially compared to facing the horde. And choices with an obvious option, are not real choices in the first place.

 

Just because you "Can" doesn't mean you should. We find potential exploits in Alpha and let the Devs deal with them. Everyone is going to play this game differently from how we feel it should be played; that is why it is so "Mod-able".

 

and there is nothing wrong with that statement. I "Chose" to fight off the Horde each Bloodmoon because I bought a Zombie survival challenge. If I didn't want to, I would turn off the hordes in the game features. If your beef is with MP, then it's up to the Server creators to screen their players with like-minded players and set standards (Rules) to how the game is played.

 

The Devs could always just turn the LCB into a "Shield Generator" once placed that blocks radiation bursts on Blood Moon nights up to 50 blocks radius. Run, Ride or don't place and you eventually die from the Blood moon itself. Wouldn't impact my game play in the slightest and I can imagine the complaints that would follow that TFP are forcing players to play a certain way.

[RestInPieces]

Just because you "Can" doesn't mean you should. We find potential exploits in Alpha and let the Devs deal with them. Everyone is going to play this game differently from how we feel it should be played; that is why it is so "Mod-able".

 

and there is nothing wrong with that statement. I "Chose" to fight off the Horde each Bloodmoon because I bought a Zombie survival challenge. If I didn't want to, I would turn off the hordes in the game features. If your beef is with MP, then it's up to the Server creators to screen their players with like-minded players and set standards (Rules) to how the game is played.

 

Have you ever wondered why devs "deal" with exploits in the first place? They could just tell players "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Or they could just tell them "since the game is mod-able anyway, you can play however you want, so why don't you just choose not to use the exploits?". Why do we even need a designer in the first place - just throw a bunch of content into the game and let players engage with them randomly without some kind of meaningful structure, choices, or any cause-effect relationships.

 

Not talking about these kind of rules and SP/MP has nothing to do with it. Any game is a set of rules. Options outside of the game or mods, is how you choose some of these rules. But that is completely irrelevant with being able to ignore game mechanics just because the game doesn't offer a meaningful choice, incentives or consequences. Might as well have the game asking you if you wish to die when your health is reduced to zero - I am sure someone on this forum would not fail to call that "playstyle freedom" as well, or say something meaningless like "just because you can doesn't mean you should".

 

Thing is that because you can do something (and since it's better than the alternative) - guess what - you probably will, unless the game itself tells you that you shouldn't, or by giving you a meaningful choice to actually let you decide what you do yourself.

[wicketness]

@AtomicUs5000

I take it you are upset with this incomplete game, and are trying to chat your way to be listened to?

Aside that you have some good ideas i think your over reacting a lot lmao.

 

I myself think horde night is fine and much better then any patch before it, the game does scare the crap out of me and i mod it to the point where i like it even more. This is what you should do mod it, not try to tell everyone what you want and how to do it...

 

The last thing i have to say is....

 

HURRY UP AND WAIT LIKE THE REST OF US.

 

 

Feel free to bash the game and its devs but it is their game and they will make it as they see fit according to their vision and not what 1 player outta millions want...

 

Thats my nickle.

[AtomicUs5000]

@AtomicUs5000

I take it you are upset with this incomplete game, and are trying to chat your way to be listened to?

Aside that you have some good ideas i think your over reacting a lot lmao.

 

I myself think horde night is fine and much better then any patch before it, the game does scare the crap out of me and i mod it to the point where i like it even more. This is what you should do mod it, not try to tell everyone what you want and how to do it...

 

The last thing i have to say is....

 

HURRY UP AND WAIT LIKE THE REST OF US.

 

 

Feel free to bash the game and its devs but it is their game and they will make it as they see fit according to their vision and not what 1 player outta millions want...

 

Thats my nickle.

 

And I suppose it's your job to point that out, right. Oh, my forum hero.

[wicketness]

Muh hahahahahaaa!!!

[FA_Q2]

If something like this will be part of the game, I'd have to build a tunnel or a roofed path from my horde base to my work base. Otherwise I have to stand around for half the night with no enemies left. Most of the time the horde ends shortly after midnight and all zombies are dead.

 

Also possible to end the rain after the last wave. Less immersive but still makes sense - the unique horde attack ends at the same time the rain unique rain ends.

[AtomicUs5000]

Also possible to end the rain after the last wave. Less immersive but still makes sense - the unique horde attack ends at the same time the rain unique rain ends.

 

Yeah. Definitely a problem to be solved. Wouldn't want to force people into twiddling their thumbs, ending up right where this started.

[bdubyah]

@AtomicUs5000

I take it you are upset with this incomplete game, and are trying to chat your way to be listened to?

Aside that you have some good ideas i think your over reacting a lot lmao.

 

I myself think horde night is fine and much better then any patch before it, the game does scare the crap out of me and i mod it to the point where i like it even more. This is what you should do mod it, not try to tell everyone what you want and how to do it...

 

The last thing i have to say is....

 

HURRY UP AND WAIT LIKE THE REST OF US.

 

 

Feel free to bash the game and its devs but it is their game and they will make it as they see fit according to their vision and not what 1 player outta millions want...

 

Thats my nickle.

 

He's having an ongoing discussion about ways to improve something. You're contributing nothing except spewing hate and name calling. But he's the toxic one..?

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind more of a reason to "have" to fight, if maybe on horde nights they drop more loot and something. But I also already just build a normal base, and do my best to defend it.

[wicketness]

I at least read his posts before i chimed in.

Trying to prove your self over everyone else is just toxic and not needed, I said what i said and left it there that was my opinion as "I" saw it.

I did mention he had good ideas but he was more interested in being right to vent his frustrations which is understandable this after all is the place for it.

 

I said my part now i leave it there.

 

"Pretzels"

[RipClaw]

Personally, I wouldn't mind more of a reason to "have" to fight, if maybe on horde nights they drop more loot and something. But I also already just build a normal base, and do my best to defend it.

 

In my eyes it is always better to create an incentive than to force something.

 

To be honest, I don't mind if there is a possibility that you can skip a horde without turning it off completely. Especially since there seem to be some bugs that occur when changing the settings for the blood moon nights.

 

I have never skipped a horde myself and I don't think I will do that in the future as long as I have the possibility to fight the horde with traps and without having to use a lot of ammo. It would be ideal if I could get by completely without firearms and without turrets as it is possible with my current base.

[AtomicUs5000]

I really don't know what this guy is going on about. I presented my thoughts about horde night in the first post. The rest of the thread had been mainly people presenting possible ideas, of which most of them had at least some aspect that could reduce the problem at hand. One person had an idea that was simply not for me, but I didn't just say that it was wrong... just not for me. A few had thoughts about not making blood moon horde a necessity and those were not very helpful because there already is an option to turn them off. Myself, as well as others have pointed that out, but nobody ever said it was wrong. More than half of this thread has been the discussion of possible mods. If he truly read all the posts, he wouldn't have said anything about mods because it is quite obvious that's exactly where this thread has headed. In general, I have found everyone quite helpful.

 

I certainly have not bashed the game or the devs here. I have only pointed out a problem. I even took this discussion out from where it started as to not derail the dev diary. Some could call that respectful. This is a problem that was present before, but because of changes in other things, it has become more obvious. Most of those "other things" are good changes and I am not suggesting those changes were a mistake because horde night has become dull. All I am saying is that further changes should be made. I don't expect them to be made in vanilla, but it would be nice. In the meantime, mods, as we have been discussing for several pages now, are the way to go.

[xXBadDreamXx]

i dont think AtomicUs5000 is bashing anyone or anything. We've all played the game for varying amounts of time and enjoy different play styles. We come here to vent our opinions and a lot of veteran players are not happy with some of aspects of the game the way they are currently. Things will get balanced and changed and MM has stated so specifically so even if some people are throwing some salt around it won't last forever and we're allowed to do that. Plus A17 has been a huge dogturd all the way around and has broken more stuff than fixed and the new content was slim at best and not 1 years worth of an entire team that's for sure so I think some salt toward the Pimps is deserved.

[fragtzack]

IMO "horde" should be removed from the description of the game long time ago. While horde nights are in concept fun, there is too many issues with the execution of horde nights as OP says. The OP states my concerns very well indeed.

 

Leave the hordes in game, but labeling this game as a "horde" game is meh.

[bdubyah]

In my eyes it is always better to create an incentive than to force something.

 

To be honest, I don't mind if there is a possibility that you can skip a horde without turning it off completely. Especially since there seem to be some bugs that occur when changing the settings for the blood moon nights.

 

I have never skipped a horde myself and I don't think I will do that in the future as long as I have the possibility to fight the horde with traps and without having to use a lot of ammo. It would be ideal if I could get by completely without firearms and without turrets as it is possible with my current base.

 

Oh, I agree. That's why I put it in quotations. Haha. I've never skipped them either. I'd hold my house as long as I could and then fight them in the street till it was over. That was A17.0 when I was coming back from a long hiatus not playing. After some trial and error and quite a few deaths, I adapted to the new changes. Then 17.1 came out and fixed the stamina. Go figure. Lol.

 

I don't avoid the hordes as that's just a part of the game. A core part. A good part. But I'd never be opposed to some tweaks or new mechanics being added to it. I do miss looting all the corpses and whatnot after the chaos was over.

 

Maybe they could fix the spawns and make it more like Guppy's trickle so they last all night. And also have them spawn in front of you if you're traveling away at speed, such as in a vehicle. Make it where a bunch of zombies bog your vehicle down so that they can wail on it. Can't really remove vehicles as an escape, so why not try and add some danger to it?

[AtomicUs5000]

i dont think AtomicUs5000 is bashing anyone or anything. We've all played the game for varying amounts of time and enjoy different play styles. We come here to vent our opinions and a lot of veteran players are not happy with some of aspects of the game the way they are currently.

 

If I have said anything to anybody that has been offensive, I apologize. I didn't start this thread to be offensive.

 

IMO "horde" should be removed from the description of the game long time ago. While horde nights are in concept fun, there is too many issues with the execution of horde nights as OP says. The OP states my concerns very well indeed.

 

Leave the hordes in game, but labeling this game as a "horde" game is meh.

 

And that's a real shame. I want it to stay and to improve. Ignoring the issue because the game is unfinished I think is a bad idea. After all, if the devs are unaware that there is even an issue, why would they even consider changing anything?

 

We have a lot brainstorming going on in here. I think it's great. Some arguments have gone back and forth, but that's part of the process of looking at things from different points of view. We've come up with some modding possibilities, and even though these are just possibilities and just conceptual, we are still finding potential problems to work out ahead of time.

 

Maybe they could fix the spawns and make it more like Guppy's trickle so they last all night. And also have them spawn in front of you if you're traveling away at speed, such as in a vehicle. Make it where a bunch of zombies bog your vehicle down so that they can wail on it. Can't really remove vehicles as an escape, so why not try and add some danger to it?

 

They did have a trickle in A16, but it ended up being more of an annoyance than anything. Perhaps it was because it worked too well. You could literally time out in your head exactly when the next one was coming. Also, it was just one zombie. If they would have done it so that the trickle included more and more zombies as your gamestage increased, it probably would have been a little better. However, they just scrapped it instead.

Detecting your direction on a vehicle during horde night and spawning things in front of you would be really good. It would really give you a sense that the horde is everywhere, even though it technically isn't. I like the idea of being overrun on your vehicle as well. When you hit a zombie it could slow you down a little... so if you hit a few there is a possibility of getting walled in. Love it.

[bdubyah]

If I have said anything to anybody that has been offensive, I apologize. I didn't start this thread to be offensive.

 

 

 

And that's a real shame. I want it to stay and to improve. Ignoring the issue because the game is unfinished I think is a bad idea. After all, if the devs are unaware that there is even an issue, why would they even consider changing anything?

 

We have a lot brainstorming going on in here. I think it's great. Some arguments have gone back and forth, but that's part of the process of looking at things from different points of view. We've come up with some modding possibilities, and even though these are just possibilities and just conceptual, we are still finding potential problems to work out ahead of time.

 

 

 

They did have a trickle in A16, but it ended up being more of an annoyance than anything. Perhaps it was because it worked too well. You could literally time out in your head exactly when the next one was coming. Also, it was just one zombie. If they would have done it so that the trickle included more and more zombies as your gamestage increased, it probably would have been a little better. However, they just scrapped it instead.

Detecting your direction on a vehicle during horde night and spawning things in front of you would be really good. It would really give you a sense that the horde is everywhere, even though it technically isn't. I like the idea of being overrun on your vehicle as well. When you hit a zombie it could slow you down a little... so if you hit a few there is a possibility of getting walled in. Love it.

 

 

I think wicketness is the only one acting offended here. Lol.

 

I would love for zombies to be able to slow and stop vehicles. Maybe once they slow you enough they can grab onto the vehicle to try and drag you out? Then you have to try and circle around to lure them away so you can get back in and leave safely.

 

I think the trickle would work better if they can improve performance enough to have a decent increase in zombie count. I'd like it if it almost starts out like a giant wandering horde that's coming through, and once you start engaging them they all start coming at you. Could have a few screamers always be up front and once they scream, it's on. Code the AI so even though there's say, 150 zombies within ~100 blocks, only a certain amount will aggro at a time, so you still get your waves, but even as you fight the ones running at you, you see the rest just wandering around in the distance.

 

And that would help it to me. Make it more interesting and more people will wanna do it. And again, maybe make loot drop more during this. Could even have special loot that is only attainable during the horde nights.

 

One other thing, which ties into hopeful zombie count increases. Say you have quite a few more zombies out and about on a normal basis. If you participate in the horde and kill a whole bunch, maybe the area around you stays clear for a few game days/rest of that week? Seems like a decent incentive to me.

[Lanadon Conners]

I still think there might be something to "Tethering" the player to their LCB. Everyone starts with one. If the Bloodmoon gave off radiation like the Rad zones on BM nights from 11pm - 4am but the LCB offered, say a 50-100 block radius of protection (like an invisible dome), it gives bases a new reason for being made and allows enough room for those who prefer to "string along and Melee" the horde room to do so. They could even place Burn barrels to make their limits.

 

For Mp servers, one block could protect all players under it's cover.

 

It doesn't help against Underground Moles, but the Digging zombies are already there for that.

 

Just an idea.

[bdubyah]

I'm not sure about that. Because what if you get caught in a city or somewhere other than your main base? Especially for the first horde or two, I might just take over a random POI and try and hold it out if I'm in the middle of looting. Like I was doing a T5 quest at the 6 story apartment building and forgot it was a horde night. I just busted out the stairs and killed what I could.

[AtomicUs5000]

Well for nomadic play, you could just place down your LCB temporarily at some POI.

[Kattla]

I just see the hordes as a roaming band of zombies trying to eat my brain. As long

as i can choose a logical way to deal with it, it is fine. If , or rather when, the game

is made so i have to fight, and only in a certain way, it is no longer fine.

 

BTW, at least with hordes every 7th night, they are 1/14th of the game anyway.

I have much bigger problem with what to fill the remaining 13/14 part of the game

with anyway.