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How many Gamasutra articles do you want me to link you with devs saying the word realism for their games?

Sorry for being annoying, but we have made this discussion countless times before and realism when used for video games is used to describe the consistency of the game's own universe, not compare the game with our real life world. And thematic consistency is a pretty important thing.

 

Oh thank god. I can not tell how much I hate reading this bs about realism beeing unimportant in games.

But since english is not my native tongue I always struggled to explain it in a simplistic manner.

 

Realism is one of the most important things in games. Skyrim and dragons are not realistic.

But wings make flying realistic. A flying mammoth would NOT be realistic or be in line with the world.

And while it was very fun drinking 200 skooma and flying through the world, it was a good choice to limit this for skyrim.

There are games where unrealistic and funky surreal design can be something great.

But even those games need to follow their ingame logic. If the lore tells me that ppl can fly, than this is "realistic" in this world.

If I say "this is a paralell world where zombies are possible because it is a virus" then this does not mean that aliens are "realistic".

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Well, now we're just differing in our terminology then.

 

Thematic consistency as you've defined it, absolutely! I'm all for it. It's why I didn't like the earlier idea of an EMP knocking out vehicles (even the bicycle...lol), but I can get behind the later idea of "radiated rain" (or blood rain now?) making vehicle travel hazardous, if not downright lethal during the BM Horde.

 

I meant realism, literally. I've seen lots of games go awry on some quest for realism, sacrificing game play in the process.

 

So, yes, the game staying consistent within its own established law, would definitely be on my list, and pretty high up that list to. It's just I trigger a little when I hear someone talk about "realism" in a game about a Zombie apocalypse, so if it's not what meganoth meant (in its literal meaning anyway, then we're all golden.

 

Forgive me for being annoyingly pedantic, it's just that, like you said yourself, using it in a literal real world sense would be meaningless since the game is based on a fantastical universe that is very similar to the real one, with the only difference being the fantastical features (zombies etc).

 

A realistic weight system for example is simlar to the real world's only coincidentally (because 7DTD world/physics try to simulate the real world's), but since the 1st of the list is always gameplay, as you said, we have something in-between.

 

I agree that EMPs would be a stretching it and I would prefer the rain idea too. I've been rooting for random radioactive rain events since A1 so I would be extremely thrilled to have this in the game.

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Realism is one of the most important things in games. Skyrim and dragons are not realistic.

But wings make flying realistic. A flying mammoth would NOT be realistic or be in line with the world.

And while it was very fun drinking 200 skooma and flying through the world, it was a good choice to limit this for skyrim.

There are games where unrealistic and funky surreal design can be something great.

But even those games need to follow their ingame logic. If the lore tells me that ppl can fly, than this is "realistic" in this world.

If I say "this is a paralell world where zombies are possible because it is a virus" then this does not mean that aliens are "realistic".

 

Exactly. In the absolute literal sense, realism and believability/consistency are two different things. But when people talk about realism when it comes to a fictional universe it can only mean consistency/believability, unless they are directly contending the fictional universe itself, it's all about context.

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adding realism the way it refers to " real life " is not a good thing to ask for a zombie survival game that only one man can build skyscrapers

 

the way the screamer was represented in game as a special zombie that shows up when the player run too much heat sources " this was amazing " the players couldnt argue much about being unable to farm like they used too also ME i was so excited to see what dangers this special type of zombies offer ,

 

what iam saying is whenever devs change something that was already in game ( not including bugs of course) players go like it should be this and it should be that " WHY? , WHAT? " and all kind of stuff like that, the right way to do it should be like the screamers new stuff added that improves the experience and the immersion of the player , new challenges new designs and so on .

 

the AI was a must to change but it went very far IMO zombies shouldnt " calculate " but special zombie leader is a good idea , super intelligent and zombies follow , if you kill him you solve this problem , but if you leave him you can cheese zombies into a maze of traps .

 

who agrees?

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Tower defense and horde base building is part of the game and there are probably many players who like that part. Options to turn it off are absolutely ok, but throwing it out? Naah.

 

I proposed special type zombies a few times a year ago and neither TFP nor many "realism++" players were all too keen on this idea. So, you have my support for that part of your idea but it is only slightly more likely than TFP throwing out the horde night.

 

Hm, maybe I haven't explained my idea pretty well then.

I haven't said to completely throw out horde base building, I said I'm opposed to having timer ticking in the background which will send zombies your address so they can visit you for a cup of tea.

 

Basically, I would rather have really badass, completely silent(all atmospheric music/effects cuts off 1-2h after sunrise) atmosphere on day 7, and then from noon all hell breaks loose. You would have scarier atmosphere, no matter where you are, you wouldn't be able to skip it as it would affect all zombies ingame. If you're unlucky, you would see some really rare zombie(I thought Behemoth would fill this in but alas) running toward you etc etc. It's not that it would completely get rid of the horde/tower defense, it would just mean that you don't get to choose where you fight or when as there would be constant threat for that day, not just from dusk till dawn on day 7. If you're good in stealth and don't want to fight, with or without stealth skills you could try to avoid those scarier zombies, but with them having better detection.. If I goof in trying to lose them while running to my base, and they follow.. Eh, you get the picture what I'm trying to say.

 

For me, atmosphere is something that decides if the game is good or not(not trying to insult TFP here even though I have different opinion of some mechanics). If you can make that atmosphere scarier, especially in game with zombies, that's a win in my book. Add to that weather and biome effects, thick fog where you can't see if it's a zombie or a bandit or maybe some friendly player/NPC, food/hunger mechanic, and it's something that could easily be called the best zombie survival game.

 

Either way, not trying to beat the dead horse here, nor to push my idea further if BM is to stay. I remember when BM wasn't a thing and was introduced in A8 iirc, and with higher spawn numbers + roaming hoardes around, it was awesome, to me that is. Others may disagree, and that's their right.

Nowadays it's only UMA models(if they're still around that is) to have some different models for zombies, and just option to offset the BM time, maybe few more options to achieve this but that's it. It's very limited as far as I'm aware(excuse me if I'm wrong as I may be out of the loop in what's been said in dev thread).

 

So my point is that maybe instead of focusing purely on how to stop players avoiding BM horde, or having a headache to balance reward/punishment system in regards to what BM actually should be for players, maybe expand that a bit in some other ways. Even those demanding loot bags or some rare drops per finished BM horde would then feel the satisfaction of just surviving the 7th*n day when all hell breaks loose globally, not only locally in certain time of day.

 

 

I believe we have this option now.

Ok, I'm intrigued, how/when/where? Mod I presume or some other option like BM offset?

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Nowadays it's only UMA models(if they're still around that is) to have some different models for zombies

 

thats the core point of my deep thoughts, zombies are no threat anymore they are bunch of XP bags moving around with different looks and zombie with more HP means more XP .

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If anything, you would make a brass alloy in the forge. I can’t remember what it’s made of off the top of my head. I want to say copper and zinc. They would have to add those deposits for mining. This seems like another good mod idea.

 

Would need balancing and or assurance that these deposits were not huge

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Basically, I would rather have really badass, completely silent(all atmospheric music/effects cuts off 1-2h after sunrise) atmosphere on day 7, and then from noon all hell breaks loose. You would have scarier atmosphere, no matter where you are, you wouldn't be able to skip it as it would affect all zombies ingame. If you're unlucky, you would see some really rare zombie(I thought Behemoth would fill this in but alas) running toward you etc etc. It's not that it would completely get rid of the horde/tower defense, it would just mean that you don't get to choose where you fight or when as there would be constant threat for that day, not just from dusk till dawn on day 7. If you're good in stealth and don't want to fight, with or without stealth skills you could try to avoid those scarier zombies, but with them having better detection.. If I goof in trying to lose them while running to my base, and they follow.. Eh, you get the picture what I'm trying to say.

 

Ok, a little clearer now what you meant.

 

I assume that "no matter where you are" and "affect all zombies" already is how the game is intended to work (not exactly sure how much it does in the actual game, there may be bugs and problems).

 

The game simulates anything that happens on a global scale by showing you only what happens around you. Wandering hordes are implied to be all around the world, but naturally you see only the wandering horde that is 100m away from you. Sure, you have the meta information that in reality that wandering horde is the only one occuring, but from your in-game viewpoint you should not be able to see any difference to a global phenomenon occuring.

 

The same goes for horde night. I'm sure it is supposed to happen everwhere in the world, any survivor will get attacked by hordes and if you ask other people on a MP server, yes, it happens to everyone. And if you change the location while the horde night lasts, new zombies should attack you from all sides.

 

Whether that exactly happens in-game respective gives the impression of a global phenomenon is a question of bug fixing or balancing of spawn rules.

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I'm not fully against the EMP ideas. I do like the idea of some rare zombie, like an evolved screamer, having this effect when it screams... like the banshee in that video referenced earlier. It couldn't stand on its own though, for the same reason why the Behemoth doesn't. You would need to introduce at least a few "evolved" zombies for the sake of maintaining a cohesive game world.

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Either way, not trying to beat the dead horse here, nor to push my idea further if BM is to stay. I remember when BM wasn't a thing and was introduced in A8 iirc, and with higher spawn numbers + roaming hoardes around, it was awesome, to me that is. Others may disagree, and that's their right.

 

Can I set the rule as thread creator that you may feel free to beat dead horses?

I agree with zombie numbers. Would love more. It's unfair to link their thinning numbers to blood moon horde though.

 

Ok, I'm intrigued, how/when/where? Mod I presume or some other option like BM offset?

 

nobm.jpg.0eceb6ddffd65c83d288bd510f061b7e.jpg

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I'm not fully against the EMP ideas. I do like the idea of some rare zombie, like an evolved screamer, having this effect when it screams... like the banshee in that video referenced earlier. It couldn't stand on its own though, for the same reason why the Behemoth doesn't. You would need to introduce at least a few "evolved" zombies for the sake of maintaining a cohesive game world.

 

Agree and to be honest I don't like the idea of "evolved" zombies with arcade-y abilities. Hopefully these green glowing bullet sponges will be gone someday too. Plus electricity failures for that extra horror effect can happen in other ways. Prefer your "acid rain" concept - would make the BM a much more overwhelming event.

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Agree and to be honest I don't like the idea of "evolved" zombies with arcade-y abilities. Hopefully these green glowing bullet sponges will be gone someday too. Plus electricity failures for that extra horror effect can happen in other ways. Prefer your "acid rain" concept - would make the BM a much more overwhelming event.

 

I said before their implementation that they look stupid.

Sadly there was not as much of an outcry as there was with the burnt zombie (remember that cartoonish red chest in one of the preview videos? :D) So they kept it. To this day I think they are glowing 10x more than they should! (a little is fine!)

And them beeing bulletsponges: they arent! They just heal very very fast! Which I can totally see. Like some ultra healing flesh that fixes muscles bones and skin in no time. Only deadly hits or a radremover are viable. And I love seeing that glowing feral die to my sneakattack rifle with radremover in 2 shots. They are more challenging at hordenight (as they should be) and kinda make sense.

 

The only thing I dislike is their cartoonish glow.

 

http://66.media.tumblr.com/8345ae2b38176820642ed1ed081d2077/tumblr_nkvq1zvNAw1ta6qcfo1_1280.png

 

and here the discussion about the flaming zombie that can more or less be ported 1:1 towards the green glowing cartoons known as "radiated"

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?24406-The-new-quot-fantasy-flaming-zombie-quot-is-completely-stupid

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Agree and to be honest I don't like the idea of "evolved" zombies with arcade-y abilities. Hopefully these green glowing bullet sponges will be gone someday too. Plus electricity failures for that extra horror effect can happen in other ways. Prefer your "acid rain" concept - would make the BM a much more overwhelming event.

 

I'll try to work on it when A18 releases. I'd have to learn the SDX stuff, I presume. I can't do it right now. I don't have the benefit of working with an entire development team. Everything I do at work I have to do myself... coding in Java, SQL, Ruby, Ruby on Rails, HTML, javascript, Ajax, XML, json, while syncing data with other software. On top of that it's a server-client scenario where the server is Linux and the clients are Linux and Windows. Even the security I have to do myself, all the certificates and encryption, the system to deploy updates, the mounting of network drives, automatic backups of all the databases, authentication of users, remote users with sensitive medical documents, keeping everything HIPAA compliant, making sure physicians who sign those documents have valid licensing with Medicare and Medicaid in the states that the users reside via government API datasets that are updated monthly... *deep breath... parsing spreadsheets with updates in ICD-10 codes, Medicare Fee Schedules, DME allowable pricing, connecting to geolocation APIs to generate maps for the delivery guys to distribute goods, establishing optimal round-trip routes for those deliveries, systems for inventory, logging calls, logging faxes, logging incoming merchandise, keeping track of renewals, monitoring the status of invoices... *falls to the floor ... generation of PDF documents with automatically filled in fields, logging access of employees to sensitive files, their viewing and printing of those files, oh yeah, and of course everything has to look nice. I have nightmares of code. No joke. *dead

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Agree and to be honest I don't like the idea of "evolved" zombies with arcade-y abilities. Hopefully these green glowing bullet sponges will be gone someday too. Plus electricity failures for that extra horror effect can happen in other ways. Prefer your "acid rain" concept - would make the BM a much more overwhelming event.

 

its not fully arcade-y abilities , like what i said before having the screamers in game was a way to prevent the players from farming forges early game , and nobody can complain its a special zombie and its cool. this is other than TFB say right of the back " hay you cant have more than one forge " or " if you have two heat sources on a large roaming horde will smack your base " , if you got it right , its a more convenient way to hold you from doing something that wont look like TFB dont want you to do .

 

on the other hand adding too much of those will be game breaking because this will shut every single door you have it open .

 

for sake of fun , i thought of a painful idea for the vehicles to escape the BM. like a super sonic birds that dont see but hear the loud noises like motors , your only way for salvation is to have a roof on top of you always , if you are going to use a gun , its more likely you would have a roof too , the acid rain idea some players would say it must damage zombies too.

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its not fully arcade-y abilities , like what i said before having the screamers in game was a way to prevent the players from farming forges early game , and nobody can complain its a special zombie and its cool.

 

True, screamers are nice. It's the "vomit" snipers that upset me mostly. :p

 

I said before their implementation that they look stupid.

Sadly there was not as much of an outcry as there was with the burnt zombie (remember that cartoonish red chest in one of the preview videos? :D) So they kept it. To this day I think they are glowing 10x more than they should! (a little is fine!)

And them beeing bulletsponges: they arent! They just heal very very fast! Which I can totally see. Like some ultra healing flesh that fixes muscles bones and skin in no time. Only deadly hits or a radremover are viable. And I love seeing that glowing feral die to my sneakattack rifle with radremover in 2 shots. They are more challenging at hordenight (as they should be) and kinda make sense.

 

The only thing I dislike is their cartoonish glow.

 

Yeah remember that one... >.<

 

They heal very fast yes - this is indeed the worst, but they also have ~x3 health and x2 pain resistance (didn't even know they had this), if you look at the entityclasses.xml.

 

Their appearance is a big part of why I don't like them but it's not the only one. I would be ok with a certain special zombie being a bullet sponge (plus other things), but - don't know if I can describe it well - every zombie "upgrading" to a generic stronger version of itself is somewhat "flat" - it is the game linearly upping the difficulty to respond to your increased damage. Also, when you level up a clever level scaling keeps sending you low level enemies so that you can feel the difference of power. 7DTD does this, but in the end you end up fighting a green horde.

 

My idea of difficulty is zombies behaving more randomly (not only in their pathing), the disease system working properly (they will fix it for A18), more lethal specials (with thematic/gory abilities like infectuous blood sprays, realistic vomit etc), which appear and increase in numbers as difficulty goes up (this already happens now more or less).

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[...]

 

oh dont get me wrong. I'm not a fan of them. I'm just saying I could see it somewhat beeing realistic (callback :D)

 

But you are obviously right. More differenciated zombies with less... otherworldly... abilities instead of a flat "this one is radiated and stronger now" is OBVIOUSLY better.

 

But I rather have radiated Z's than no challenge at all ^^

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I gotta be honest, I'm not sure what the OP is about. My bases don't require massive repairs after horde night and I don't consider making a base with the AI in mind to be cheesing anything. I make use of traps, lots of them, especially barbed wire early on. The same I imagine I would if I were in a zombie apocalypse and took note of how the zombies behaved.

 

I make use of traps. A lot of them, including barbed wire early on. Anything to keep the zombies from getting to me and killing me. I kinda thought that was the whole point.

 

Personally, I think they game is a bit unbalanced toward the Zs right now. A16 was boring. You could get to night 70 with no real fear unless you just started the game. Now there is a challenge to it unless you are just riding a bike, advancing time, or leaving an MP server. At the end of the night you take stock and realize you don't have enough bullets for the next one and you can't just sit on your butt and build the whole time. Ya gotta get out there and loot or mine and craft.

 

The zeds could use a scaling system that actually scales and the pathing could be tweaked a bit. Other than that I'm pretty happy with where we are.

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I gotta be honest, I'm not sure what the OP is about. My bases don't require massive repairs after horde night and I don't consider making a base with the AI in mind to be cheesing anything. I make use of traps, lots of them, especially barbed wire early on. The same I imagine I would if I were in a zombie apocalypse and took note of how the zombies behaved.

 

I make use of traps. A lot of them, including barbed wire early on. Anything to keep the zombies from getting to me and killing me. I kinda thought that was the whole point.

 

Personally, I think they game is a bit unbalanced toward the Zs right now. A16 was boring. You could get to night 70 with no real fear unless you just started the game. Now there is a challenge to it unless you are just riding a bike, advancing time, or leaving an MP server. At the end of the night you take stock and realize you don't have enough bullets for the next one and you can't just sit on your butt and build the whole time. Ya gotta get out there and loot or mine and craft.

 

The zeds could use a scaling system that actually scales and the pathing could be tweaked a bit. Other than that I'm pretty happy with where we are.

 

well??? , you didnt consider the amount of resources you spent making those traps than it all was destroyed + the time you spend repairing and replacing them?

 

the same goes for wall and blocks repairs , they prevent from zombies and they protect your soul , but they also get damaged and you also lose resources :)

 

the point isnt what is the method you use , the point is how you benefit from it and how you enjoy your experience , some say they do enjoy what they are doing . but at the end of the path its called exploiting .

like riding the bike all horde long ...

 

my view is that the game is missing some special zombies .. some that require special ways to fight other than " hit and run " method . i think the way i fight the spider zombie before and after A17 has changed,

he is now a little different , now i fight little more careful and wait for his jump or just spray him .

 

do you see where iam going ?

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