Horde Night is DEAD

[ktr]

Why some people here cant understand giving HN some basic rewards for dealing with it, I will never know.

 

Probably for the same reason that people who want rewards can't understand the ppl on the 'other' side of line think that beating the horde is the reward. I tend to fall more in that direction. Sure, the loot is nice, but personally, my reward has always been successful base design/actively defending my base. Or even base failure and then I really have to think quick to not only keep my butt alive but also to keep my resources from being obliterated.

 

I like how other games like terraria deal with there horde night by having unique enemies attack you on that night that give unique loot.

 

This could be interesting. Horde night loot perhaps has a higher chance of getting mods or full pieces of armor.

[RipClaw]

But luckily TFPs agree with me in this one regard and are working on fixing these exploits.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. Gazz once wrote that he sees escape as a legitimate option for the horde night and madmole once wrote that there might be a stealth perk in the future with which you can even hide from the horde.

[RestInPieces]

Is this magical Blood Moon EMP going to disable the logout button as well?

 

Just what battery/electronics in the bicycle did it impair?

 

Especially as the game now supports disabling the Blood Moon Horde right there in the in-game menu options, why are you so worked up about what other people do during the Blood Moon? However they choose to disable it, they will, and there's no system TFP could (reasonably) put in place that will stop that.

 

What is the science between the red sky? The sudden multiple thunders? The green glowing bullet sponges?

 

I don't think an "EMP" is stretching it nowadays. Can come in the form of an enemy (like the screamer), at random periods of time like lightning and will even add depth to the defense process during a BM since it will disable most contraptions. Doesn't have to last for long, like you imagine it. But even a little while would make vehicles not worth using due to the risk of being destroyed.

 

Especially now that there is an option, there is no longer an excuse that "people are forced into xxx" (which was always a reason to avoid any meaningful synergy with which the game could engage its players - god forbid!). Or is that still taking the right away from people to disable the BM with ...multiple ways some of which having the side-effect of making an important game element optional, thus, taking away any sense of urgency or purpose from it?

 

Oh the bicycle! Damn it! Never mind let's scrap the idea... or I don't know, make the bicycle slower than the max zombie speed? As it also should have been in the first place?

 

And what was that about the logout button again? Was my first answer not sufficient? Should they also balance the game over the fact that it doesn't "pause" in MP servers in general? For someone who might want to visit the bathroom perhaps? Eat? Or go out to grab a coffee? Are you seriously saying that they should design the game around your ability to... stop playing?

[Weazelsun]

One thing I've noticed in the settings for horde night how many zombies one can have at once. So if a person sets it to 8, on horde night they'll get 8 zombies, and repeart once they kill them 8 more zombies come in. How about instead, it would dictate zombie waves? Especially since if the default time for a normal game is 22:00-04:00, once it reaches morning no more zombies. The way I envision it in the wave mechanic:

 

-Game time could be normal, but once it reaches morning if you still have one last wave of zombies they will still come.

Example: Zombie wave of 8.

Waves will come with a varied amount of zombies and types.

Gimmicky reward: Zombie boss in the last wave that would drop a loot bag or a supply drop will appear after killing the last wave + zombie boss.

[OzHawkeye]

Are you seriously saying that they should design the game around your ability to... stop playing?

 

No, not at all, I'm just pointing out there is no way to stop people from avoiding BM nights (even when they are configured by the in-game options to occur), nor any way to disable vehicles that is even remotely supportive of "immersion" given that the game has a bicycle now, which has not so much as a Tandy-1983 pocket calculators worth of electronics to it.

 

So given that it can't be done immersively or comprehensively, I struggle to see the benefit in TFP trying.

 

I don't really mind if they do though, so long as player freedom is preserved (even to skip the Horde if that's what they want to do, despite these new random hordes being one of my very favourite A17 game mechanics).

[Viktoriusiii]

No, not at all, I'm just pointing out there is no way to stop people from avoiding BM nights

 

 

I don't care what other people do.

I don't cheat, so logging off or using the console is not an option for me. But a vehicle is part of the gamedesign and should be factored into the rest of the gameplay.

 

And yes they should definatly try and make every exploit go away as best as they possibly can. Bugfixing is part of gamedevelopment!

They won't be able to fix all. But you are trying to argue since they cant fix all they should fix none.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I wouldn't be so sure. Gazz once wrote that he sees escape as a legitimate option for the horde night and madmole once wrote that there might be a stealth perk in the future with which you can even hide from the horde.

 

If there is a legitimate option for it (like some sort of anti zombiespray that costs massive ressources) I'm all up for it to avoid one hordenight.

A "spend a point here and the setting "bloodmoon horde" turns off" is stupid though.

[Khulkhuum]

1. Make zombies on HN faster than the player, way faster.

2. Make zombies in general have less HP and do a little less damage. This goes in pair with #1 as the danger would be with faster Zs and less bullet spongy enemies. Easy to add a few more variants of zombies to the club.

3. Make bicycle a bit slower than zombies on HN. During normal days and nights it will be faster, but slower on HN. Other vehicles need to be a bit faster than HN zombies, but they can stop working/have debuffs (like above).

 

@RIP - I don't mind not having a reward after a HN, but it would be a lot more interesting if either there was a small reward or you had a sense of achievement/passing a milestone. Sure you survive and it can be a reward of itself, but only when you had a good fight. I wouldn't mind on lower GS a big number of very weak zombies marching in, would be more interesting than 10-20 zombies throughout the night.

 

EDIT: 4. Give the possibilities to use some drinks/food/meds that would enhance the player speed a bit over the HN zombie speed, allowing the player to have the benefit, but at the cost of resources (late game) and a small period of time (plus consequences).

[RestInPieces]

No, not at all, I'm just pointing out there is no way to stop people from avoiding BM nights (even when they are configured by the in-game options to occur), nor any way to disable vehicles that is even remotely supportive of "immersion" given that the game has a bicycle now, which has not so much as a Tandy-1983 pocket calculators worth of electronics to it.

 

So given that it can't be done immersively or comprehensively, I struggle to see the benefit in TFP trying.

 

I don't really mind if they do though, so long as player freedom is preserved (even to skip the Horde if that's what they want to do, despite these new random hordes being one of my very favourite A17 game mechanics).

 

As an immersion warrior and as I described in the rest of my post which I hope you did read, I don't find periodic electromagnetic pulses too much of a stretch, compared to the sudden lightning, red sky and glowing zombies. The bicycle simply doesn't have to get disabled, since it should be the slowest vehicle in the first place, not allowing you to safely escape the horde.

 

Since you are struggling to see the benefit, let me ask this with a simple example. For what reason is there a cheat mode checkbox in the first place? Why isn't it just integrated into gameplay? What is the reason for the existence of the checkbox? Why would anyone uncheck it and play? Let's take it further - why are there difficulty sliders for any game?

 

Do you understand that every game is a set of rules, which the player is thrown in, to play with its mechanics? For example when you play with the cheat mode box unchecked, or choose a certain difficulty, you want to play under certain rules. You don't want to be able to fly at will - not because of something nonsensical as the "you lack self control", but because you want to have this specific set of tools playing under those rules and feel free to do your best at playing the game. Even board games work like that damn it.

 

TLDR: "Player freedom" is not the game asking you if you want your health to be subtracted after you got hit by that zombie or if you would like to avoid threats at your convenience. Many of you seem to be mixing that. Also something being optional unavoidably comes with zero sense of urgency and becoming unimpactful.

[RipClaw]

If there is a legitimate option for it (like some sort of anti zombiespray that costs massive ressources) I'm all up for it to avoid one hordenight.

 

Sounds to me like the Shark Repellent Bat Spray -

 

By the way, there was also the idea that the trader offers you a sleeping place in his base for a lot of money.

 

A "spend a point here and the setting "bloodmoon horde" turns off" is stupid though.

 

The horde's not switched off, but they just can't find you anymore.

It's pretty handy when you want to skip a horde but don't want to turn it off completely.

 

The reasons can be manifold. In A16, for example, I saw a stream where the streamer didn't want to interrupt his work on the new base because of the horde. So during the horde he just worked in the mine while the zombies were partying on the surface. So he could work productively and then welcome the next horde to the new base.

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]brilliant explanations[...]

 

can't give this enough +1's

thank you for putting it into words better than I ever could (at least in english )

[ktr]

As an immersion warrior and as I described in the rest of my post which I hope you did read, I don't find periodic electromagnetic pulses too much of a stretch, compared to the sudden lightning, red sky and glowing zombies. The bicycle simply doesn't have to get disabled, since it should be the slowest vehicle in the first place, not allowing you to safely escape the horde.

 

For the record, I don't much care either way. As long as a "challenge" doesn't equal time wasting micromanagement, I'm pretty forgiving on game mechanics. That said, no, I would never expect zombies to outrun or even pace someone peddling along at a good clip on a bike. Can I accept it as part of the game? Yes. Would I find it immersive? Not in the least.

 

I feel roughly the same about BM EMP pulses. Could be a fun challenge (if it affects generators as well), but is, IMO, also a highly obvious attempt to hinder the player's progress at that point to create the illusion of difficulty. For me, it wouldn't be immersive at all and wouldn't create any sense of real sense of urgency to be barred from a vehicle since I already don't use them to escape the horde. Part of that is, admittedly, personal playstyle. I fight the horde because I like it and don't care about what might be options outside of what to do if my plan A and back up plan B fail. Can I escape on my motorcycle? Yes. Does it lessen my sense of achievement or drive to make a base, weapons, etc? Not at all.

 

To me, it's like saying 'we're going to let you build steel walls so you get the feeling of progression and safety 6 days a week, but on the 7th we're going to make each zombie's individual block damage take out steel in one hit because you're too safe now'.

[Viktoriusiii]

That said, no, I would never expect zombies to outrun or even pace someone peddling along at a good clip on a bike. Can I accept it as part of the game? Yes. Would I find it immersive? Not in the least.

 

Not trying to win here. Just adding onto that:

I also dislike that you can just drive with the bike right through the wilderness up 45آ° mountains and be totally fine.

 

If zombies would spawn in every direction when driving the bike, and you are like 50% the speed on dirt than on the road and zombies that hit you throw you into a ragdollposition, I would be happy.

But certain compromises have to be made

[ktr]

Not trying to win here. Just adding onto that:

I also dislike that you can just drive with the bike right through the wilderness up 45آ° mountains and be totally fine.

 

If zombies would spawn in every direction when driving the bike, and you are like 50% the speed on dirt than on the road and zombies that hit you throw you into a ragdollposition, I would be happy.

But certain compromises have to be made

 

 

Nah, surprisingly (maybe?) I agree with you. I too question some of the inclines that my bicycle can climb but my jeep has more trouble on. I probably should have said that, just like fun, immersion is pretty subjective. For example, I find zombies that move at speeds faster than a slow, menacing lurch with the occasional burst of speed if you're in range (I love the base zombies in RE2 Remake) pretty 'meh'. But until technology and software makes it possible for me to have smooth gameplay in a voxel game with 100s and 100s of zombies shambling towards my base from all directions, I accept it. Other people love the fast moving Usain Bolts charging at them in confined spaces and don't find it silly at all, and that too is fine.

[mr.devolver]

The OP seems based on the premise that levels / skill points (and thereby increased GS) is a goal.

 

When I play I try to avoid gaining XP in order to keep the GS low as I scavenge and improve my gear.

 

During horde night I also rely on traps as much as possible for the same reason.

 

This just shows that we actually need more flexibility in terms of gameplay, because we all like different ways of playing this game and that's fine, that's the main advantage of this game and it always was - play the way you want to play because you can do that in this game. For this reason I believe the horde night is actually pretty clever and flexible too - You want to avoid it? You can. You want to go through the hell of the horde night? You can do that too! You want the extreme? Set as many horde night zombies per player as possible and install the mod that prolongs the horde night until morning if you have a death wish.

[RestInPieces]

For the record, I don't much care either way. As long as a "challenge" doesn't equal time wasting micromanagement, I'm pretty forgiving on game mechanics. That said, no, I would never expect zombies to outrun or even pace someone peddling along at a good clip on a bike. Can I accept it as part of the game? Yes. Would I find it immersive? Not in the least.

 

I feel roughly the same about BM EMP pulses. Could be a fun challenge (if it affects generators as well), but is, IMO, also a highly obvious attempt to hinder the player's progress at that point to create the illusion of difficulty. For me, it wouldn't be immersive at all and wouldn't create any sense of real sense of urgency to be barred from a vehicle since I already don't use them to escape the horde. Part of that is, admittedly, personal playstyle. I fight the horde because I like it and don't care about what might be options outside of what to do if my plan A and back up plan B fail. Can I escape on my motorcycle? Yes. Does it lessen my sense of achievement or drive to make a base, weapons, etc? Not at all.

 

To me, it's like saying 'we're going to let you build steel walls so you get the feeling of progression and safety 6 days a week, but on the 7th we're going to make each zombie's individual block damage take out steel in one hit because you're too safe now'.

 

Yes, I get what you mean and you make some valid points. That alone is refreshing, no matter if you agree with me or not.

 

Personally, I don't even like sniping vomit cops or birds and of course green bullet sponges - I find them "unrealistic" (even for the game's standards) and believe they belong to that "artificial" kind of difficulty due to the lack of more creative means of difficulty.

 

As for the EMP thing - have you played Darkwood? It is a well-made top down atmospheric survival rpg. Its ways to screw the player over are well-crafted/set enough, so that they don't seem "artificial". Anyhow, I find the concept of something disabling defenses/lights randomly for a few seconds quite exciting and interesting changing the course of battle and the players' actions - didn't bring it up mostly for vehicles and I wouldn't bring it up at all if it wasn't for 7DTD's dramatic blood moon effects.

 

At any case, anything that will make the horde involuntary will do. Whether you have to defend something, or you can't for whatever reason escape - that's the gist. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as it fits and is as seamless as possible. This is irrelevant to some sense of achievement - I explained why it has to be this way in detail in my previous post and it is essentially how every other game works (except pure sandbox games).

 

can't give this enough +1's

thank you for putting it into words better than I ever could (at least in english )

 

One would think that some principles - especially ones that every single other game out there uses - don't have to be explained, but...

[meganoth]

Personally, I don't even like sniping vomit cops or birds and of course green bullet sponges - I find them "unrealistic" (even for the game's standards) and believe they belong to that "artificial" kind of difficulty due to the lack of more creative means of difficulty.

 

Too bad, I was just on the brink of mentioning this as a solution to bikes and vehicles. The spit could slow you down because of flat tires destroyed by the acid.

 

Gameplay wise both have different advantages. EMP would influence strategy and base design on horde nights too (if electricity is disabled everywhere for short times). Cops would probably make the more interesting mini-game if you do decide to try out the bike on horde night.

 

I would have no problems with either cops or EMP. The disadvantage is far outweighted by the immersion of having an inevitable horde night (if you don't turn it off completely).

[RestInPieces]

Too bad, I was just on the brink of mentioning this as a solution to bikes and vehicles. The spit could slow you down because of flat tires destroyed by the acid.

 

Gameplay wise both have different advantages. EMP would influence strategy and base design on horde nights too (if electricity is disabled everywhere for short times). Cops would probably make the more interesting mini-game if you do decide to try out the bike on horde night.

 

I would have no problems with either cops or EMP. The disadvantage is far outweighted by the immersion of having an inevitable horde night (if you don't turn it off completely).

 

It's the way I see it as well. And the better the staging is, the less artificial will it look. As for spit, it already exists, so it might as well serve a meaningful purpose by slowing/affecting vehicles

[Morloc]

I think I suggested this once before, but I wasn't able to find it in a search...

 

This change would provide the motivation for defending a base. Positive and negative reinforcement.

 

You can build structures, forts, etc. anywhere you want. You can escape hordes with a vehicle. Once you install a Colony block however (similar to a LCB), you've designated this spot a colony.

 

What happens...

 

1) Your colony block attracts NPCs.

2) The cap on colonists would be based either on your level, or a perk, but the total would increase very slowly to reach that cap. Quests might include rescuing people that would then become colonists.

3) Depending on TFP's abilities and desires, NPCs would either not be able to defend themselves, or perhaps have limited capabilities to run or melee.

4) The NPCs would provide passive abilities and benefits which might include auto-farming, running forges, or giving certain bonuses or perks to the player just by being in his colony.

5) Special NPCs would exist which might provide extended or unique abilities. For example, if you have a colonist with the "Well Digger" ability, he or she will provide you with a well kit which will allow you to make an unlimited water source (not necessarily fresh) within your base. A good cook might give you a stamina bonus. A doctor might quickly patch up your wounds or remove most debuffs. You might even be fortunate enough to attract your own Trader!

6) On Bloodmoon nights the zombies will beeline for your COLONY, not you. They'll attack you, your base, and your colonists if you let them.

 

There's a TON of incentive to defend your base. You'd even need/want to design it differently, and much more seriously if colonists' lives were at stake. If TFP could implement a combat capable NPC colonist, BOY would that be fun. Nothing would be stopping you from abandoning the people you swore to protect to save your own skin, but your people would be very dead and much of your colony structure decimated. All your bonuses gone, and the unique ones probably gone for good in that game. This would definitely add some RPG zing to the game for those who like that, and a set of special perks to earn and protect for more spartan gamers. It's sort of how FO4 was supposed to do settlements (but with some actual lethal danger to the NPCs).

 

I'd suggest that the zombies would attack and eventually destroy your Colony block and then just wander the site until morning. Until then, your chests full of goodies might be lost, but I'm not suggesting the zombies would actually seek them out either.

 

 

-Morloc

[RestInPieces]

I think I suggested this once before, but I wasn't able to find it in a search...

 

This change would provide the motivation for defending a base. Positive and negative reinforcement.

 

You can build structures, forts, etc. anywhere you want. You can escape hordes with a vehicle. Once you install a Colony block however (similar to a LCB), you've designated this spot a colony.

 

What happens...

 

1)........

......................................................

....

 

There's a TON of incentive to defend your base. You'd even need/want to design it differently, and much more seriously if colonists' lives were at stake. If TFP could implement a combat capable NPC colonist, BOY would that be fun. Nothing would be stopping you from abandoning the people you swore to protect to save your own skin, but your people would be very dead and much of your colony structure decimated. All your bonuses gone, and the unique ones probably gone for good in that game. This would definitely add some RPG zing to the game for those who like that, and a set of special perks to earn and protect for more spartan gamers. It's sort of how FO4 was supposed to do settlements (but with some actual lethal danger to the NPCs).

c

 

Are you kidding? This is a wet dream for many of us.

Yes, it would provide an excellent combination of reward and risk. Ever tried RTS mod in Fallout 3? Unfortunately MM confirmed that it is *very* unlikely to happen, because it is a huge undertaking and as they said, they are not sure they would be able to deliver something that is not sub-par.

[Roland]

Just put a dress on the LCB and call her Ellie....

[mr.devolver]

Just put a dress on the LCB and call her Ellie....

 

Ok, that's kinda desperate lol

 

Now... Where do I get that dress schematic?

[Morloc]

...it is a huge undertaking and as they said, they are not sure they would be able to deliver something that is not sub-par.

 

Just put a dress on the LCB and call her Ellie....

 

 

I wouldn't mind the sub-par thing too much...the dress on "Block_Ellie_01" would be OK. I don't even need her to move (hmm, sounds like that movie I was watching last night), just to give me her bonuses so long as I keep her alive. I could pick her up and place her where she should be....but that'd need some limiting factor since you wouldn't want to just be able to pick up your whole colony during a BM. "Turret_Roxanne_01" would sit diligently up on the wall where I placed her...etc.

 

If it can't make it to the Release, then it would be a hell of a pay-DLC to buy.

 

 

-Morloc

[mr.devolver]

I don't even need her to move (hmm, sounds like that movie I was watching last night), just to give me her bonuses so long as I keep her alive. I could pick her up and place her where she should be....

-Morloc

 

[RestInPieces]

Ok, that's kinda desperate lol

Desperate times call for desperate measures...

[akram22]

while you all talking about the horde night and the scaling with the GS , i think we need the GS out of the game except for horde night .

and how this is going to work is simply every thing is RANDOM and avoidable .

for example :

1-a feral horde not blood moon horde should be something you will see mid day . it souldnt be directed to your location in case you are unlucky and just started the game , but something that will stop you in your place for a while, or if you really want that exp , its all your choice.

 

2-there is no more house filled with tons of rad zombies , but there is integrated pois that provide a loot quality that is fixed to the difficulty of the poi , so if its a normal cabin i would expect normal and weak legs zombies but in return no reward (if iam very high level)

 

and the higher level pois like the missile silo , i should expect feral zombies before mid way and lil rads at the end, but extremely good loot

so if it happens to sneak past all this risks in your first day and break the containers very carefully you can have it!!!

 

3- the loot should be spread out in the building not all in one room at the end, thats something like check points !

 

this for sure will affect the horde night , because if you are not ready to take top tier pois , you shouldnt really face hard HN and vise versa

 

4- in case you are arguing about riding the bike , i could think of a concept that really no one would like . which could be represented in the final version of the game , the soul reaper or the behemoth which is " in my opinion " a dark giant scary looking zombie that want to feed the smaller zombies and he watches you during every horde night from a far distance if you tried to out run the horde you will not out run him >> something like a force field <<< but more convenient . lol

 

the last point is just a joke .