Xenophobed44 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Honestly, I think a17 is "good enough" for now, and would rather the whole team hammered on a18 hard to kick it out asap. How about... Just hear me out.... I know this sounds crazy. How about let the Devs actually make their game to the fullest potential it can be made instead of rushing it out a few weeks quicker full of bugs and gutted features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie04k Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Oh I'm not saying that a poorly designed game isn't fun. Sometimes a steep learning curve can be worth it, but just think how much better that game would be if you could learn it easily without the steep learning curve. Yea and thats the problem nowadays, if it can’t be learned and figured out in 20min no one wants to play it. Sorry but i disagree with you, its the learning curve and slowly figuring out what works and what doesn't is awesome for me. Games that have no learning curve bore me after an hour. But like you have stated you are trying to cater to a broader audience which usually means dumbing down the game for the brainless masses . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FileMachete Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Yea and thats the problem nowadays, if it can’t be learned and figured out in 20min no one wants to play it. Sorry but i disagree with you, its the learning curve and slowly figuring out what works and what doesn't is awesome for me. Games that have no learning curve bore me after an hour. But like you have stated you are trying to cater to a broader audience which usually means dumbing down the game for the brainless masses . Don't disagree w you Louie, yet there is a bit of a sweet spot where just getting you hand held for the basics is pretty much mandatory. Like the starter quests here and in Empyrion. Empyrions' go further but they both make sure you're not forced to go to youtube just to figure out the most basic mechanics. The later/harder stuff is where I really agree figuring it out for yourself is most rewarding. There I don't want it just given to me. The most fun I've been having in a17 is having to do lots of testing of pathing & traps. Simple things like only being able to shoot through one side of a trigger plate & not the other isn't in the journal, but knowing it increases the combos of working traps I can make. So I guess in the end the more depth & complexity a game has, the more I tend to enjoy it. Suprise! heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weazelsun Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 I think that most playing RWG would disagree here. The entire point of RWG is that the world must be explored. It should be random to the largest extent possible. Indeed, I too like exploring on the other hand. I do miss exploring some POI's, like on the multiplayer server I play on. One of the seeds used had a hospital POI, but the current map we have now doesn't have it. So, I was thinking more in that the layout of the RWG could be modeled like Navesgane, BUT, whatever POI's that is generated is random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 @Madmole Lol NMS was too hard.... I know understand the dumbing down of 7DtD.... I have no problem with games having hard areas or get hard late game, but difficulty learning and if your spending 80% of your time scrounging for oxygen/life support when your advanced enough to have flying ships and can craft laser mining guns... then surely basics of survival wouldn't be such a chore. I mean make the game hard where it matters. Its like they wanted to hide their shallow worlds by making you scrounge for oxygen constantly. I'd rather explore and kill enemies then kill plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khzmusik Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 I have no problem with games having hard areas or get hard late game, but difficulty learning and if your spending 80% of your time scrounging for oxygen/life support when your advanced enough to have flying ships and can craft laser mining guns... then surely basics of survival wouldn't be such a chore. I mean make the game hard where it matters. Its like they wanted to hide their shallow worlds by making you scrounge for oxygen constantly. I'd rather explore and kill enemies then kill plants. The mechanics themselves should be easy to learn, I agree with you completely. But there's this idea (scoffed at by Louie, not coming from you) that they should all be learned in the first 20 minutes of the game, and I don't like that idea. I favor games that have multiple mechanics that you learn as you progress through the game. A basic example is the gravity gun in HL2. You were halfway through the game before you could get your hands one one. Things like that are what keeps games interesting to me. It's kind of hard to do that in something like 7D2D though, unless you deliberately set up the game to go through things like the "scavenger phase," "farming phase," "building phase," etc. where each "phase" is level-locked or something. That kills the variety of play styles, and I'm certain most players would hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Yea and thats the problem nowadays, if it can’t be learned and figured out in 20min no one wants to play it. Sorry but i disagree with you, its the learning curve and slowly figuring out what works and what doesn't is awesome for me. Games that have no learning curve bore me after an hour. But like you have stated you are trying to cater to a broader audience which usually means dumbing down the game for the brainless masses . This is a prime example of how people with 1000's of hours lose perspective of the early game and how difficult or easy of a barrier to entry the first day of the game is likely to be for brand new players. You have it all memorized and know exactly what to do and what not to do thanks to all your experience. Madmole isn't talking about dumbing down the entire game. He's talking about making the barrier to entry easier-- a part of the game that will take people like you and me about 10 minutes to advance beyond anyway. He never said he was going to make the whole game easy. He said that they wanted the first 20 - 30 hours for a brand new player to be polished and compelling and approachable so that they would become hobby players of 1000's of hours. You and everyone else's problem is that you are projecting what YOU can accomplish in 20-30 hours and forgetting that for a brand new player 20 - 30 hours might be comprised of several restarts and a maximum days alive of 2-3 weeks as they learn the ins and the outs of the game. If the game has set them up well with accurate information regarding controls, UI, and how the world works and their deaths are seen as their own fault and not some bug that did them in then most of them will be spurred to challenge themselves to try and survive longer. What Madmole is saying is that they want the first exposure of the game to be highly polished with good performance and sufficient support for the new player to learn the basics so that they will go on to play for 1000's of hours. Most AAA games have about 6-10 hours of play, so aiming for 20-30 with hobby potential is still a very admirable design goal. Here is his original statement that bent everyone out of shape but I think it is because they all focused on the 20-30 hour part and glossed over the part I bolded and italicized. The devs do want the game to be fun for 1000's of hours and do plan to continue to add content after gold but until gold their focus is going to be on making the game an attention grabber from the beginning so that players will become those hobby players that put in 1000s of hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frekton Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I have no problem with games having hard areas or get hard late game, but difficulty learning and if your spending 80% of your time scrounging for oxygen/life support when your advanced enough to have flying ships and can craft laser mining guns... then surely basics of survival wouldn't be such a chore. I mean make the game hard where it matters. Its like they wanted to hide their shallow worlds by making you scrounge for oxygen constantly. I'd rather explore and kill enemies then kill plants. You must have been playing in survival mode, which is not intended for a first play through. It would be like asking a new 7DtD player to play on difficulty 5 with bloodmoon every 2 days lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FileMachete Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 If any dev is inclined I'm curious about Unity limits/issues with things that 'move'. Not a coder here & not implying anything, just wondering if maybe newer versions of the engine may allow things like elevators or retractable ladders to be added without tons of bugs or custom coding? Like the Drawbridge. If that took/takes 50 hours to custom design & code then it makes sense that the one we have may be it. Just kinda hoping/wondering if maybe down the line the engine might make adding other moving elements much easier...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 Taser baton wip: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie04k Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 <snip> Yea man that true you make good points! I guess making it so you can get on your feet at first is simple, then branch out into complexity quickly as you progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie04k Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 snip Well i guess this is were im in the minority lol, when i started playing 7d in a8 i loved the fact i had no clue wtf i was supposed to do and loved it 😂 But i know most people aren’t like that. And i get what your saying, maybe madmole should learn to explain things better then having to get you to explain it all lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weazelsun Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 You must have been playing in survival mode, which is not intended for a first play through. It would be like asking a new 7DtD player to play on difficulty 5 with bloodmoon every 2 days lol. Interestingly enough, that was pretty much my experience with 7 Days to Die. I decided to play on a multiplayer server after trying out single player and lo and behold, the server that I'm on when I joined in A15, is in fact with that type of difficulty of 5. Except now our blood moon is random. @madmole, I think the game is fine as it is. Heck even when I started on that multiplayer server, even though the difficulty of it is at 5. I don't think, I ever had a problem as a new player to game having started on that server or difficulty. I'd say the game is already intituative as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 If any dev is inclined I'm curious about Unity limits/issues with things that 'move'. Not a coder here & not implying anything, just wondering if maybe newer versions of the engine may allow things like elevators or retractable ladders to be added without tons of bugs or custom coding? Like the Drawbridge. If that took/takes 50 hours to custom design & code then it makes sense that the one we have may be it. Just kinda hoping/wondering if maybe down the line the engine might make adding other moving elements much easier...? Now that we have Faatal I can imagine maybe getting some more moving parts in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 Interestingly enough, that was pretty much my experience with 7 Days to Die. I decided to play on a multiplayer server after trying out single player and lo and behold, the server that I'm on when I joined in A15, is in fact with that type of difficulty of 5. Except now our blood moon is random. @madmole, I think the game is fine as it is. Heck even when I started on that multiplayer server, even though the difficulty of it is at 5. I don't think, I ever had a problem as a new player to game having started on that server or difficulty. I'd say the game is already intituative as it is. Its not bad, we just want to polish everything. I trimmed up the tutorial so your not doing so many redundant things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drithyl Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Taser baton wip: Looks pretty sweet! Does it stun zombies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 You must have been playing in survival mode, which is not intended for a first play through. It would be like asking a new 7DtD player to play on difficulty 5 with bloodmoon every 2 days lol. Yes, but it still seems pretty poorly balanced when by default you can't go for more than a few minutes without recharging your oxygen and env suit. 90% of my time was spent harvesting stuff for that making it hard to focus on repairing my ship. Its fine, its not so hard after you figure it out. I only died about 4 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 Looks pretty sweet! Does it stun zombies? It should do whatever electric fences do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrslyGTFO Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I've made about 10 sewer POIs so far. I'm designing them to be modular, so you can connect them in a maze-like fashion, with larger arena type junction areas. I ran into the problem of deciding what loot should be down there. For now, just a ton of bodies to be looted for bones. Some of these are modern sewers and some are older. The older ones have some minerals stalagmites growing from the ceiling, so a good source of nitrate. One of the POIs have like little hobo shelters that have a little loot. So, there are ways... just need to use some imagination. Well, considering the amount of toilet pistols we see, I imagine ammo should be plentiful in sewers, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrslyGTFO Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Yes getting trapped in the dark is a great idea. I'd go to the mountains or plains where you can see everything coming for a mile. Well, except when they spawn 50 meters from your base. Amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I heard that new players are most confused about how to reorder the crafting queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowDog1942 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 It should do whatever electric fences do Fall apart in 5 seconds on horde night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 ... My point is that a smaller polished experience is way better than a broad sandbox with no real goals or connection. At least 7 days has the horde coming, so there is that inevitable doom you need to prepare for which instills "purpose" for the player. Trader quests are adding more purpose and story. The new books add a tiny bit of lore and help tutor a little. Once we get a main quest in I think we'll be closer to the polished subnautica experience and further away from the unpolished no man's sky experience. ... Meaningful mechanics that are connected and gives the player a goal yes! But I would be careful with introducing thing like "lore" ore a detailed backstory in a sandbox game. It can easily overdefine the world, and replaces the free imagination each player personally has about what might have happened in this universe. So I would not tell a specific reason of why the player-avatar is there, and what was the cause of the apocalypse. (there could be some diffuse hints, but not a long detailed narrative about characters and events that nobody cares about). It should be up to the imagination of everyone what the story and the world is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exxodous Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Fall apart in 5 seconds on horde night? Kage had a video showing how to set them up and keep them repaired. Mine lasted all night on horde night 56 without any problem with only a couple repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 @faatal Old buddy, old pal... Vehicles... Maybe add a few blank keyboard binds that turn children on and off like headlight does when you hit f? ...so we can mod in some more interesting animations? Pretty please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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