OzHawkeye Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I know enough of RNG to know that if there's a 10% chance to spawn a fat mamma (for example, numbers pulled out of my arse), and I spawn 6 zombies, and every single one is a fat mamma ... then those are long freaking odds indeed. And if I see it happen repeatedly ... then those long odds are becoming distinctly improbable odds. The problem with such an assertion, imho, is the Von Restoff effect. You remember clearly all the times RNG dealt you a low-probability outcome (good or bad), and forget all the times it didn't. Short of performing a controlled test, showing a numerically significant deviation from "true random" (which computers can't actually do anyway, indeed, some psychologists no doubt argue we humans don't either) then you're assertion is just that, untested and unconfirmed. Is the RNG borked? I don't know, it's certainly possible, but I'd like to see some pretty hard numbers before I believed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katarynna Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 I actually do too.....for every item *except* the Beaker. It's just too important. You can't have "an interesting play-though with unique challenges" without a Beaker. Your run is over basically (assuming a difficulty higher than Nomad, and assuming you are not prepared to cheese the AI on horde night). You still need one Beaker to make gunpowder without a Chem Station. I have none. And no Chem Stations at my traders either. What like search every Poppin'Pills on the map, including going right back to each and every one of them on a 10 day loot respawn). You think I haven't tried that?? You can craft gunpowder in your backpack day one after destroying one boulder as long as it drops both coal and nitrate. You do not NEED a beaker to craft gunpowder, you just get more gunpowder per mat if you use a chem station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeardedProtagonist Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 beakers are also used in the campfire for cooking. not sure what it affects. haven't had too much issue finding a few. I will say that it would be nice if they were either static finds "somewhere" OR craftable at some point in the progression. I can craft an AK-47, but I cant make a glass container? seems strange:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Beakers are not critical progression items and loot is not the only source for them. Also, you can use chem stations that you find in the world. Really a bad example. 1 in 5 is also unreliable so nothing changes. Also you can not chain-stun enemies nor can they chain-stun you. (You're welcome!) The actual randomness is what makes play-throughs unique. So what if you don't find a beaker in 3 weeks? Adapt. Play the game. I get that some players have their preferred progression path all plotted out and want to follow it as efficiently as possible but I don't agree that this needs to be guaranteed. But but! what if they can't find a working chem station anywhere! Someone will prob bring that up heh. I know when I find a working one I mark it on my map due to not knowing how long it'll be before I find 2 beakers. Honestly for a survival game, its quite easy to find what you need usually. I still prefer a16's randomness with the recipie books and such, over a17 where you put in a point then magically know how to make things. Its extra immersion busting when your making cars, and guns, for just spending a point with 0 prior knowledge. Workbench and forge I can let slide, they aren't very detailed things to make, but the chem lab, and the guns/vechicles? thats another story. I've kinda given up on a17 myself, every game I play is pretty much the exact same, there is no randomness to it anymore.. Or at least its far FAR less random than a16 was and I feel that it hurt the game not help it. That feeling when finally finding that book you need was great, I rarely ever get that feeling in a17 anymore as everything is too easy to get, or is handed to you by somehow getting the info injected into your brain. I do like the new combat and graphics in A17, but I feel the gameplay kinda took steps back due to the removal of the randomness. - - - Updated - - - beakers are also used in the campfire for cooking. not sure what it affects. haven't had too much issue finding a few. I will say that it would be nice if they were either static finds "somewhere" OR craftable at some point in the progression. I can craft an AK-47, but I cant make a glass container? seems strange:) I have to agree with this here, we can make some pretty complex things out of the junk we find, we should be able to craft a beaker locked behind a perk though of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katitof Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 It's not imba, it makes every game even more equal. Only if certain item is mandatory to progress in the game further. None in this game is. Its SURVIVAL game. Adapt to difficulties, don't expect freebies to be just handed to you. In fact, its the randomness which SPECIFICALLY makes the game have replayability value over doing the same stuff and finding the same stuff each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I've kinda given up on a17 myself, every game I play is pretty much the exact same, there is no randomness to it anymore.. Or at least its far FAR less random than a16 was and I feel that it hurt the game not help it. That feeling when finally finding that book you need was great, I rarely ever get that feeling in a17 anymore as everything is too easy to get, or is handed to you by somehow getting the info injected into your brain. I do like the new combat and graphics in A17, but I feel the gameplay kinda took steps back due to the removal of the randomness. [...] I have to agree with this here, we can make some pretty complex things out of the junk we find, we should be able to craft a beaker locked behind a perk though of course. Wait, what? Are you for more randomness or less? If we can also craft the beaker by perk one of the last remnants of randomness is removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 We already have cries for finding intact vehicles, what next? fully stocked and loaded bases, ready built turrets and traps, a base on wheels so you dont need to walk. How much easier does it have to be made to to stop the constant whine over things that arent important to playing the game? The only essentials needed to play are food, water and clothing anything else is a bonus and should be treated as such. Oh damn! I just gave them all ideas didnt I! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Yeah its not random luck when its geared for you to eventually win the lottery. "Unfair randomness" lol. The whole premise of a survival game is to use what you find and make the best of it to survive. I don't think there is anything blocked by random roles you truly need. Oh I'll just keep looting these trash cans and I'll find my gyrocopter soon, its sure to spawn. Not fun IMO, that takes away the thrill of actually finally finding something you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Yeah its not random luck when its geared for you to eventually win the lottery. "Unfair randomness" lol. The whole premise of a survival game is to use what you find and make the best of it to survive. I don't think there is anything blocked by random roles you truly need. Oh I'll just keep looting these trash cans and I'll find my gyrocopter soon, its sure to spawn. Not fun IMO, that takes away the thrill of actually finally finding something you are looking for. Thank god for someone who understands the random nature of rng! its THE thing that keeps me playing. A lot of items should be harder to find. Struggle should be part of the game, whether it be food, water, weapons or resources. Having to work around problems and still survive is the games greatest asset and dumbing this down just makes no sense. If everything is just handed to you where the hell is the challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollowprime Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 Yeah its not random luck when its geared for you to eventually win the lottery. "Unfair randomness" lol. The whole premise of a survival game is to use what you find and make the best of it to survive. I don't think there is anything blocked by random roles you truly need. Oh I'll just keep looting these trash cans and I'll find my gyrocopter soon, its sure to spawn. Not fun IMO, that takes away the thrill of actually finally finding something you are looking for. First of all I thought you asked people to provide suggestions about how to fix A17 instead of whining which I do and you make fun of it. Then you have the guts to say trash cans shouldn't give schematics when that's exactly what they did in the previous versions and you even posted about it not so long ago in the forums which is the very reason I did this thread. And finally you have the audacity to speak about the gyrocopter... You magically discover iron and steel smithing even become a top engineer having the intelligence and experience to assemble a freaking gyrocopter because...your intellect grows by smashing zombie heads ,crushing rocks and building blocks... How is this in ANY way related to realism at all? How is your RNG and perk gated system better than...freaking pseudo random distribution? Edit: You can literally add pseudo random distribution on EVERY schematic related thing: Find gyrocopter on a trash can? No,but how about a schematic with high probability on a shotgun Messiah? Or a higher probability for a beaker on a hospital every time you visit a new one? How is that less realistic and less interesting than magically gaining knowledge to craft a motorcycle from smashing zombies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I'm against pseudo-random, too. in 7dtd system of randomness, it is this what is needed. However, unfortunately it always depends on the current loaded Windows(or the game itself) session, and i know about it. If you think that you are unlucky in loot today - restart the program and everything can change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollowprime Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 I'm against pseudo-random, too. in 7dtd system of randomness, it is this what is needed. However, unfortunately it always depends on the current loaded Windows(or the game itself) session, and i know about it. If you think that you are unlucky in loot today - restart the program and everything can change. Dude , this is the same thing with the exit without save option in some games. Eventually the game becomes lame because the seed you got was bad. The reality however is the game wasn't programmed with the mind of having everything under control. The programmers didn't make every scenario balanced having its pros and cons. Where p is the happenstance to get a good result there must be at least a 1-p chance to get a bad result . Good and bad karma... balance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 .. Not fun IMO, that takes away the thrill of actually finally finding something you are looking for. The point are not the things you find. The point are these things you find not ! I solved that FOR ME with my mod by * Questline that reduces RNG luck influence by offering Beaker,ToolnDie Set, Magnum, Ak, Chainsaw , Auger and vehicles during longer gameplay Until now i had no real game i played long enough to say much about later items. But in 3 of 4 cases i have the stuff allready before the questline give it to me, there is no big benefit to have two q3 auger, or 3 beakers. And having a Q3 Minibike make a Q4-6 Minibike in no way not "thrilling" The biggest benefit is that i can play my games without skilling intelligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Imo 'unfair randomness' is a crucial ingredient of 7 Days To Die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 The point are not the things you find. The point are these things you find not ! I solved that FOR ME with my mod by Until now i had no real game i played long enough to say much about later items. But in 3 of 4 cases i have the stuff allready before the questline give it to me, there is no big benefit to have two q3 auger, or 3 beakers. And having a Q3 Minibike make a Q4-6 Minibike in no way not "thrilling" The biggest benefit is that i can play my games without skilling intelligence The point is Not to ensure you get everything, the stuff you get is as important as the stuff you dont get. That affects the way you play that particular game. Not finding something is not an obstacle, its a challenge that changes every game. No one is entitled to everything they feel they need to progress and modding it out is fine if you feel you have to do that. Just leave the rng for those that enjoy the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 You can craft gunpowder in your backpack day one after destroying one boulder as long as it drops both coal and nitrate. You do not NEED a beaker to craft gunpowder, you just get more gunpowder per mat if you use a chem station. OK they changed that then because it was not the case previously. It used to be to utilize the inefficient gunpowder recipe, you need one Beaker and your Campire. I didn't even try to make gunpowder as I just assumed this woukd still be the case. This reduces the necessity of a Beaker, so thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCADICT Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 I guess everyone gets a trophy if they earn it or not....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 I guess everyone gets a trophy if they earn it or not....... Player one loots one container and get a Q6 Auger Player two loots 1000 Containers and get no auger at all But sure your statement makes soooo much sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Imo 'unfair randomness' is a crucial ingredient of 7 Days To Die. Crucial indeed. It's where almost all its replayability comes from. And the game will still need more chase items, besides MM's books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Crucial indeed. It's where almost all its replayability comes from. And the game will still need more chase items, besides MM's books. Tier 7+ items. Job Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoppaTot Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Tier 7+ items. Job Done. Job started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCADICT Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Player one loots one container and get a Q6 Auger Player two loots 1000 Containers and get no auger at all But sure your statement makes soooo much sense Just as much as your statement because player 2 could craft his own Q6 Auger by that time....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Just as much as your statement because player 2 could craft his own Q6 Auger by that time....... Not if he has not skilled Int Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCADICT Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Not if he has not skilled Int Then that is choice. I am not trying to argue it is just life is not fair and if everyone always loots the same things what is the point of the game. There needs to be some variance in playthroughs or the game is pointless to play....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA_Q2 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Tier 7+ items. Job Done. Bah. This does nothing at all. Adding another 'legendary' teir is what I hope TFP DOES NOT do as that is a rather silly move. It does not change anything intrinsically. Legendary equipment should be unique items - not a teir 7 AK but different type of gun that has its own unique features. That makes it something to seek - a few stat changes are rather unimpressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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