How to fix unfair randomness in the game once and for all

[Hollowprime]

Implement the pseudo random distribution:

 

https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Pseudo_Random_Distribution

 

It was a core mechanic for games like warcraft and diablo when some chances to find an item or activate a stun buff were too random and were either broken or sometimes never occurred. A lot of games use this mechanic to fix balance issues and provide a certainty in uncertain seeds .

 

For 7 days to die it can be implemented in at least two ways:

 

In loot: Say a beaker has a 1 every 10 chances to drop from a medical cabin. With simple random distribution the item sometimes appear multiple times and sometimes doesn't appear at all. By applying random distribution the chances to find the item slowly increase until it is either found or the item reaches 100% . Afterwards it resets back to 10%.

 

On damage buffs : Say there is a 20% chance for stun to take effect when you strike with heavy or clubbed power attacks . Sometimes it activates a lot of times consecutively but sometimes it doesn't activate for long periods of time making it unreliable. By applying pseudo random distribution you make absolutely certain thato on average 1 every 5 attacks is going to stun.

 

Pseudo random distribution mostly fixes chances for items and buffs BUT it has the capability to come in handy in random world generation as well : From chances to create zombies ,to how many number of ores can exist at a certain level ,how many animals is a city allowed to have and even the chances for hordes to appear every time you create noise.

 

I would personally be very happy if it was at least applied to items and weapon buffs.

 

The only downside is it needs to keep a track of previous randomness (it has memory) so that might be a little tough for the developers ,but in my opinion the pros outweigh the cons.

[Kalarro]

Wow, I would really hate that system. Well, for world creation it doesnt sound bad. But for item finding, or stun landing? nope

[RestInPieces]

Always hated pseudo-rng in games, way too artificial. Fixing balance issues by worsening and making gameplay duller. Same as level scaling.

[Psychodabble]

Implement the pseudo random distribution:

 

https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Pseudo_Random_Distribution

 

It was a core mechanic for games like warcraft and diablo when some chances to find an item or activate a stun buff were too random and were either broken or sometimes never occurred. A lot of games use this mechanic to fix balance issues and provide a certainty in uncertain seeds .

 

For 7 days to die it can be implemented in at least two ways:

 

In loot: Say a beaker has a 1 every 10 chances to drop from a medical cabin. With simple random distribution the item sometimes appear multiple times and sometimes doesn't appear at all. By applying random distribution the chances to find the item slowly increase until it is either found or the item reaches 100% . Afterwards it resets back to 10%.

 

On damage buffs : Say there is a 20% chance for stun to take effect when you strike with heavy or clubbed power attacks . Sometimes it activates a lot of times consecutively but sometimes it doesn't activate for long periods of time making it unreliable. By applying pseudo random distribution you make absolutely certain thato on average 1 every 5 attacks is going to stun.

 

Pseudo random distribution mostly fixes chances for items and buffs BUT it has the capability to come in handy in random world generation as well : From chances to create zombies ,to how many number of ores can exist at a certain level ,how many animals is a city allowed to have and even the chances for hordes to appear every time you create noise.

 

I would personally be very happy if it was at least applied to items and weapon buffs.

 

The only downside is it needs to keep a track of previous randomness (it has memory) so that might be a little tough for the developers ,but in my opinion the pros outweigh the cons.

 

I agree. I think this would add a smoothness that's really missing from systems governed by "true RNG".

[Katitof]

Its not a competitive MOBA, pseudo RNG isn't needed here at all.

 

It would be nice for RWG and POIs so we have most/all of them in, but for combat and loot its as pointless as it could get in game like 7d.

 

And even if I wanted, I just couldn't explain how stupidly broken op it would be in regards to loot specifically, you might just as well have a "mail" being sent to your base with an item you don't have every day or so.

[Royal Deluxe]

i solved that issue by a questline that give you these stuff rng sometimes deny you.

So yes, i like the idea to set borders for RNG.

[RipClaw]

I think that's a good idea. Not necessarily for everything but for things that are important for the gameplay such as the beaker.

 

I was lucky enough to find the beakers I needed early on but other players report that they are still looking for a beaker after several weeks.

[Gazz]

In loot: Say a beaker has a 1 every 10 chances to drop from a medical cabin. With simple random distribution the item sometimes appear multiple times and sometimes doesn't appear at all.

Beakers are not critical progression items and loot is not the only source for them.

Also, you can use chem stations that you find in the world.

Really a bad example.

 

 

On damage buffs : Say there is a 20% chance for stun to take effect when you strike with heavy or clubbed power attacks . Sometimes it activates a lot of times consecutively but sometimes it doesn't activate for long periods of time making it unreliable.

...

By applying pseudo random distribution you make absolutely certain that on average 1 every 5 attacks is going to stun.

1 in 5 is also unreliable so nothing changes.

 

Also you can not chain-stun enemies nor can they chain-stun you. (You're welcome!)

 

The actual randomness is what makes play-throughs unique.

So what if you don't find a beaker in 3 weeks? Adapt. Play the game.

I get that some players have their preferred progression path all plotted out and want to follow it as efficiently as possible but I don't agree that this needs to be guaranteed.

[Royal Deluxe]

Do you know what i do if i cant get essential items after a reasonable time ?

 

I play something else !

 

And i dont speak about superstuff for day1

 

But if you have after 20 Pas n Gas boxes still no vehicle the balance is off for me.

If i have no 3+ Auger with level 100 the balance is off

If i have no beaker after 3 Pop n pills the balance is off (read only about that, had never issues with beakers)

...

 

I dont say that i have this very often, but such games exists.

 

(Btw in Diablo 3 i had no valuable drop the first 2000 Hours, so yes, RNG really can hate me)

[OldManBrian]

Good lord, "unfair randomness" is a critical feature of this game, not a problem to be solved. It actually already has been "solved" (ie, broken) in a17 by the static perk tree unlocks rather than a16's system of looting random schematics.

[Kalarro]

Good lord, "unfair randomness" is a critical feature of this game, not a problem to be solved. It actually already has been "solved" (ie, broken) in a17 by the static perk tree unlocks rather than a16's system of looting random schematics.

 

Agree. I already feel much less need to go out and explore than in a16. Now you want to guarantee the few random items that remain.

[RestInPieces]

Do you know what i do if i cant get essential items after a reasonable time ?

 

I play something else !

 

And i dont speak about superstuff for day1

 

But if you have after 20 Pas n Gas boxes still no vehicle the balance is off for me.

If i have no 3+ Auger with level 100 the balance is off

If i have no beaker after 3 Pop n pills the balance is off (read only about that, had never issues with beakers)

...

 

I dont say that i have this very often, but such games exists.

 

(Btw in Diablo 3 i had no valuable drop the first 2000 Hours, so yes, RNG really can hate me)

 

If I already know that I'll find certain items at an, approximately, specific point, I play something else too

 

There's a reason a nameless garage indie, Path of Exile destroyed freakin Diablo 3 popularity-wise. Removing/watering down rng in an inherently repetitive game was the epitome of idiocy for Blizzard.

 

 

Gazz, now that MM has played Subnautica, here's a random idea - revamp the int tree, remove most schematics from perks, add them as schematic *parts* to specific POIs, with a small amount of rng.

[Royal Deluxe]

Agree. I already feel much less need to go out and explore than in a16. Now you want to guarantee the few random items that remain.

 

random is really nice if the essentials are not included

 

Means if you can have a Q6 AK with a Radiation IMod it is completly fine that you can hunt for Legendary Ak´s that give a 15% bonus on top. It means not that at a point you need the weapon to survive you simply dont have it because rng decided so.

 

People naming this a feature simply NEVER had really unluck

[Kalarro]

random is really nice if the essentials are not included

 

Means if you can have a Q6 AK with a Radiation IMod it is completly fine that you can hunt for Legendary Ak´s that give a 15% bonus on top. It means not that at a point you need the weapon to survive you simply dont have it because rng decided so.

 

People naming this a feature simply NEVER had really unluck

 

I miss needing to go explore to get a crossbow recipe. I miss beeing happy as hell when finding a book store. Arriving at a new city and before doing anything navigating around checking if the important buildings are there so you can get specific drops.

 

And I like the addition of mods. Just not instead of.

[Royal Deluxe]

And i never said that the lack of RNG drops is in any way better.

All i said was "make only not essential items pure rng dependent"

 

What speaks against 2 guarantied Beaker after you killed 1500 Zombies (thats on average week 6 with 60 minute days)

If you have them allready, fine for you, do 2 more beakers hurt you then, i guess not. Is it in any way overpowered to have 2 beakers on week 6 ? i dont think so.

 

YOu get a bicicle at end of week one ....

is that imba ? I have my bycicles normally on day 2. So no, if RNG is no completly A Hole, you allready should have one at that time.

[Kalarro]

It's not imba, it makes every game even more equal.

[Royal Deluxe]

Only if you use these items with every game on the same way.

 

If i dont want to build my Auger is in a crate for weeks, no problem.

But what if i want to build in a game and even 200 spawned in Traders have no auger for me (Perk on 5)

exact this, i stoped playing and deleted the savegame

 

But hey, i can mod, i dont care. (Thats why i made this particular modlet)

 

If i could not mod, i would have deinstalled the game at this day

[Kalarro]

I have 900 hours into the game and I have never had an auger

[meganoth]

random is really nice if the essentials are not included

 

Means if you can have a Q6 AK with a Radiation IMod it is completly fine that you can hunt for Legendary Ak´s that give a 15% bonus on top. It means not that at a point you need the weapon to survive you simply dont have it because rng decided so.

 

People naming this a feature simply NEVER had really unluck

 

The error in your statement is that you think a Q6 AK with rad mod is essential. It isn't. A Q4 AK means you either need 10% more ammo or you learn another weapon (which is advisable anyway to use all the other ammo you find) where you found a Q6 gun.

 

Neither is a rad mod essential. While I still think it is one of the best mods for later game I made some tests with radiated and HP display on and found out that their self-healing is slow enough to not matter most of the time. Probably it was nerfed since A16. Mostly their mass of HPs are to be feared, a big mama radiated has 700 hp!

[Royal Deluxe]

And how many concrete blocks did you craft in this time ?

How many Blocks you need to dig ?

 

And if you think 20 000 Blocks are much reconsider your meaning with a value of 300 000 upwards

[AlyssaFaden]

I was convinced back in A14 and I'm still convinced now, that the RNG in this game is broken, and I don't care what the pimps say contrary to that. I get random numbers, I get that weird results can happen, but I have seen - far too often - entirely improbably things happening repeatedly. The RNG in this game "sticks" or gives the same result in short bursts. I'm convinced that's half the problem here.

[Royal Deluxe]

I was convinced back in A14 and I'm still convinced now, that the RNG in this game is broken, and I don't care what the pimps say contrary to that. I get random numbers, I get that weird results can happen, but I have seen - far too often - entirely improbably things happening repeatedly. The RNG in this game "sticks" or gives the same result in short bursts. I'm convinced that's half the problem here.

 

Well i spend some months of my life by researching "randomness". And i can tell you that real randomness contains really such accumulations. Even i feel the same that they are a bit often. They are no proof of a broken randomness.

 

(btw i lost 150€ in the casino for my research, but i won 2500€ by analyzing these Quiz shows in TV people can participate by phone.

Sadly they changed the system short after that and closed the gap i used.)

[asmosnuts]

The rng is exactly where it needs to be. Some of the best maps i have played started with TERRIBLE luck! Finding a cookpot is a basic necessity, augers and beakers are not , nor should they be easy to find or "given" to you by pseudo rng . Its already far too easy to get all you need most games. Guns and higher tier items should be much harder to find not easier and giving you all you need in the first week leads to the chorus of "bored" that litters the forums. Why are people so against struggle in a SURVIVAL game? Having to loot to find these things means taking risks without proper arms/armour to progress. Then finding that item is a massive plus.Please leave rng alone its a critical part of the game!

[Royal Deluxe]

The rng is exactly where it needs to be. Some of the best maps i have played started with TERRIBLE luck! Finding a cookpot is a basic necessity, augers and beakers are not , nor should they be easy to find or "given" to you by pseudo rng . Its already far too easy to get all you need most games. Guns and higher tier items should be much harder to find not easier and giving you all you need in the first week leads to the chorus of "bored" that litters the forums. Why are people so against struggle in a SURVIVAL game? Having to loot to find these things means taking risks without proper arms/armour to progress. Then finding that item is a massive plus.Please leave rng alone its a critical part of the game!

because

 

And 200 x 3 days on a 60 min day means 600 real hours no auger.

Or better said, craft only = You are forced to specialize in crafting

 

A choice with no goable alternatives is no choice

 

(and before my statements end diferent as i meaned them:

My statement is simply:

Dont make essentials rng only, give them a guarantied way to obtain them. This way should be placed inside the gamepace after the point you want them, after the oint rng on average give them but before the player NEED them)

[Cirion]

Honestly this thread exposes the disconnect between people who like A17 vs A16. The people fan of A17 want less randomness, the people who like A16 want, if anything, MORE randomness. I for one am bored of the predictability of A17, and new games just aren't as exciting as such (IMO) so I'm shelving 7D2D until some more interesting updates come out probably.

 

And I just want to correct some mis-information about statistics here:

 

On damage buffs : Say there is a 20% chance for stun to take effect when you strike with heavy or clubbed power attacks . Sometimes it activates a lot of times consecutively but sometimes it doesn't activate for long periods of time making it unreliable. By applying pseudo random distribution you make absolutely certain thato on average 1 every 5 attacks is going to stun.

 

20% means 20%, every time. On average, it means 1 in every 5 attacks, without this so-called pseudo randomness. Yes there will be some times you go 10-15 attacks without something procuring, but sometimes you will get it in 1 attack, it averages out. Pseudo randomness sounds OP because it would get you something procured far more than 20% of the time. Even if you happen to fail the roll 10 times in a row, the next time is still 20%, it doesn't increase or decrease in chance regardless of how few or many times you've tried the roll (with regular RNG). This principle is also known as "Gambler's Fallacy": read up here for more info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy