How to fix unfair randomness in the game once and for all

[Hollowprime]

@Joe. Blow

 

It's simply not a new idea.

A random function is a function and a seed. No more, no less.

 

Another way to describe it is that you keep using the same seed for the same item instead of rolling all items from the same seed or from a changing seed like time.

 

If you keep doing that, the function will be not random at all but generate the same _series_ of rolls / chances every time, again and again.

That is perfect for those players who have one perfect progression plan because they know they will - for instance - get 2 beakers within the first 13 medicine type loot containers.

 

It sucks for replay-ability because it's the same game every time.

 

I guess our tastes are completely different then.

 

I personally love the predictability in creating my base . In A16.4 I loved how I could go to certain locations ,find leather and craft myself a forge day 1~2. Now this has changed by adding a level gate . It is not predictable when will I hit level 10 anymore ,plus it's tedious .

Furthermore Madmole said a few days ago players used to hate not being able to create a forge in the past. Sometimes they couldn't find the recipe for weeks.

So how is that different when someone cannot find two beakers for a chemistry station or a battery for battery bank or sometimes even engines when trying to build mega structures and generate electricity? I don't suppose you expect people to keep finding gas barrels and cars forever to gain fuel for their mega bases? Or is building and crafting said structures not part of the plan?

[JaxTeller718]

I guess our tastes are completely different then.

 

I personally love the predictability in creating my base . In A16.4 I loved how I could go to certain locations ,find leather and craft myself a forge day 1~2. Now this has changed by adding a level gate . It is not predictable when will I hit level 10 anymore ,plus it's tedious .

Furthermore Madmole said a few days ago players used to hate not being able to create a forge in the past. Sometimes they couldn't find the recipe for weeks.

So how is that different when someone cannot find two beakers for a chemistry station or a battery for battery bank or sometimes even engines when trying to build mega structures and generate electricity? I don't suppose you expect people to keep finding gas barrels and cars forever to gain fuel for their mega bases? Or is building and crafting said structures not part of the plan?

 

I'm not sure I can ever truly understand how it can be enjoyable to play a game where every path is laid out for you and everything is a guarantee. This is a survival game. Part of the element to survival IS the randomness. Having to overcome a different situation each time, or having to adapt to new scenarios.

 

The game itself has already veered so off the the RNG track i couldn't possibly see how now making things a guarantee in loot would extend the playability or the fun of the game. At a certain point this no longer becomes a realistic request but more a matter of just using creative to spawn in whatever you want whenever you want. Which in your own game is fine, do so. But if this game were to ever be designed in such a manner where going out to loot and reloot pois becomes non essential it will surely be the death toll for it.

 

Thankfully with the addition of the books it looks like we are moving AWAY from bough based perks and giving those who love the unt some more content so I imagine things like this pseudo RNG (which is surely contributing to the slow death of WoW and Diablo both) will become a non issue.

[Ghostlight]

It sucks for replay-ability because it's the same game every time.

 

What? You mean exactly like the entire A17 perk system??

 

I think the best pseudo-random is the one where the chance increases each time it fails to happen. So if I have 1% to get a Beaker from loot sources that can have a Beaker, then each time I loot one of those sources, the chance for a Beaker increases by 1% until I get one or it finally hits 100%, whichever comes first. Then it resets back to 1%. Simple.

[meganoth]

It is not predictable when will I hit level 10 anymore ,plus it's tedious .

 

What is your requirement? Do you want to predict the exact minute you hit level 10 and is that really necessary? Wouldn't it be ok to just predict the day plus minus 1? Wouldn't that be enough for making plans?

[asmosnuts]

Why are people insisting on having everything NOW! Being unable to find an item is not a cause for boredom or quitting. It makes you reevaluate how to proceed and challenges you to work around the problem.

Bows work well with stealth and are effective even late game as long as noise is controlled. I only use guns in an emergency and have never needed to buy/make ammo for them. Playing dead is dead I rarely get above lv 100 and enjoy the challenge new random gen brings( when the fix arrives!).

If you must have everything immediately, please use creative and dont try to force another banal change on us. If every single challenge ends up in an ammo/ beaker / whatever youre missing today fest and you dont have to find anything the game just ends up a building sim. You do not need auger/beaker/ whatever to progress, its become a case of "i cant be arsed to look for it, so just gimme!" Enjoy what challenge there is before its all gone!

[Royal Deluxe]

Why are people insisting on having everything NOW! Being unable to find an item is not a cause for boredom or quitting. It makes you reevaluate how to proceed and challenges you to work around the problem.

Bows work well with stealth and are effective even late game as long as noise is controlled. I only use guns in an emergency and have never needed to buy/make ammo for them. Playing dead is dead I rarely get above lv 100 and enjoy the challenge new random gen brings( when the fix arrives!).

If you must have everything immediately, please use creative and dont try to force another banal change on us. If every single challenge ends up in an ammo/ beaker / whatever youre missing today fest and you dont have to find anything the game just ends up a building sim. You do not need auger/beaker/ whatever to progress, its become a case of "i cant be arsed to look for it, so just gimme!" Enjoy what challenge there is before its all gone!

Sorry, please explain me where the challenge is in having luck or not ?

 

Is it not the Opposite ?

By making it all luck dependent your actions as player are 100% void on the Question if you succeed ?

[Prisma501]

Sorry, please explain me where the challenge is in having luck or not ?

 

Is it not the Opposite ?

By making it all luck dependent your actions as player are 100% void on the Question if you succeed ?

 

It changes on how you have to succeed. Not if.

 

Cheers

[Maynard69]

Sorry, please explain me where the challenge is in having luck or not ?

 

Is it not the Opposite ?

By making it all luck dependent your actions as player are 100% void on the Question if you succeed ?

 

The challenge is in overcoming the bad luck when you have it with sheer willpower and determination.

 

For example, with your actions of looting the entire map or checking every trader on every restock (after you beat the challenge of finding them all)

 

There would be no challenge at all in knowing for sure you will get the drop/unlock whenever you loot x number of crates, or hit x level. Clicking "examine" x number of times to get a guaranteed drop is no challenge.

 

You are asking "Where is the challenge in hunting and cooking my food? Isnt there more challenge in having the chef hand it to me?"

[Ghostlight]

Why are people insisting on having everything NOW! Being unable to find an item is not a cause for boredom or quitting. It makes you reevaluate how to proceed and challenges you to work around the problem. Bows work well with stealth and are effective even late game as long as noise is controlled.

 

Successfully dealt with a GS 300+ horde night on high difficulty with a Bow have you? (without exploiting the AI ofc)

 

The item of contention here is the Beaker. Nothing else. No Beaker = no ammo other than what you can loot or what the trader sells you, which is a pitiful amount either way.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

There would be no challenge at all in knowing for sure you will get the drop/unlock whenever you loot x number of crates, or hit x level. Clicking "examine" x number of times to get a guaranteed drop is no challenge.

 

For the Beaker there would be since there are a very limited number of loot sources that can actually drop it. Finding sufficient numbers of those sources would itself become the challenge.

[Maynard69]

 

The item of contention here is the Beaker. Nothing else. No Beaker = no ammo other than what you can loot or what the trader sells you, which is a pitiful amount either way.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

For the Beaker there would be since there are a very limited number of loot sources that can actually drop it. Finding sufficient numbers of those sources would itself become the challenge.

 

I wish more things were still like the beaker personally. I have never had a problem finding them. And no, you can still make gunpowder. Just takes more mats. Or buying from trader ammo/gunpowder/nitrate/coal, all are available there.

 

When I get bad luck I go and hunt them down in every possible way until I have them, If it is a priority for you all the tools to get them are there. People that cant find them for "bad luck" are not trying hard enough tbh.

 

As far as limited sources, it would be nice if they put back medicine cabinets in large POIs and houses (hotels ect) I remember them saying a long time ago the medicine cabinets would be reworked and put back in, but havent seen or heard anything since.

[HungryZombie]

Actually it is a great example. I have zero Beakers (day 21, so I am close to where I could build a Chem Station). None of my traders have working Chem Stations and I have not found one on the map yet (4k map so I have explored a fair bit with no luck). Horde night #3 tonight and I cannot make gunpowder.

 

 

 

You don't play on high difficulties do you??

 

A play through with no way to make bullets would be unique, I'll give you that. Fulfilling and enjoyable? I doubt it. They added Tool and Die set to trader inventory to make sure the player could always have one, Beakers need to be next, for exactly the same reasons.

 

 

 

I am the first player to sit here and scream that I hate the new perk system precisely because it gives you the same items at the same level every play through. I hate that. I hate that it destroys replay-ability and makes every run pre-ordained, bland and the same.

 

Yet not for Beakers. Having Beakers as the one item in the game that cannot be made and must be found doesn't work, for two simple reasons:

 

1) Too much relies on Beakers. You cannot make bullets AT ALL without them because you cannot make Gunpowder. Without the ability to make bullets you CANNOT survive horde nights on difficulties beyond Nomad without exploiting the AI. You simply cannot. And I refuse the exploit the AI and never will.

 

2) beaker drop rate is extremely low, and it can only drop from a scant few loot sources. It's the perfect storm of bad RNG.

 

They absolutely need to add Beakers to the trader inventory, pretty much as a guaranteed item. Make them cost 20k if you must but they need to be buy-able.

 

I'd much rather have items like beakers have a very hard recipe or a high cost from the trader than be RNG. Like you say it's an essential item. I don't mind it taking work to get but make it a sure thing. I'll grind a million dukes happily rather than searching an entire map and hoping for the best. RNG is frustrating I find. Having a high bar gives me hope and a sense of progress at least.

[Royal Deluxe]

---

When I get bad luck I go and hunt them down in every possible way until I have them.

On a map with only a few Pois and no loot respawn it means you start a new game ?

[RestInPieces]

On a map with only a few Pois and no loot respawn it means you start a new game ?

 

Yes, and start a map with loot respawn turned on.

[Maynard69]

On a map with only a few Pois and no loot respawn it means you start a new game ?

 

I have never seen that problem with the exception of 17.2. And I got lucky to find a good seed first try on 17.2. I dont think they intend to have maps with few poi's.

 

I dont play no loot respawn but I have never had to loot for things on respawn like beakers, books. RWG has always been sufficient in the past to find what I need on the map the first time. But I have no issue with going nomad on the entire map until I get what I need, then settle down somewhere.

 

Really though, there is no predicting how it will be when the finish working on RWG. There is issues like smaller maps, POI distribution. So I can see how some people might have a tough time right now.

 

In my current 17.2 playthrough I found a couple Pop-n-Pills while exploring, got 2 beakers from tier quests, found another in a weird loot container (I think it was a backpack or something) so on day 27 I have 7 beakers.

 

I mean they arent even as rare as they used to be. I think bringing back the old medicine cabinets would help people have even more chances at it. Those were apparently being re-textured or something and suppose to be back in, but I havent heard about them since.

[Ghostlight]

I wish more things were still like the beaker personally.

 

I actually do too.....for every item *except* the Beaker. It's just too important. You can't have "an interesting play-though with unique challenges" without a Beaker. Your run is over basically (assuming a difficulty higher than Nomad, and assuming you are not prepared to cheese the AI on horde night).

 

And no, you can still make gunpowder. Just takes more mats. Or buying from trader ammo/gunpowder/nitrate/coal, all are available there.

 

You still need one Beaker to make gunpowder without a Chem Station. I have none. And no Chem Stations at my traders either.

 

When I get bad luck I go and hunt them down in every possible way until I have them, If it is a priority for you all the tools to get them are there. People that cant find them for "bad luck" are not trying hard enough tbh.

 

What like search every Poppin'Pills on the map, including going right back to each and every one of them on a 10 day loot respawn). You think I haven't tried that??

[Royal Deluxe]

Yes, and start a map with loot respawn turned on.

 

So the intention of RNG gate essentials is to offer inique gameplays.

And by doing that it disallow settings that make a gameplay really diferent ?

 

I really dont know why i still discuss it, because i solved it for myself with a mod. But as some here know i like to change the gamerules for each of my gameplays. And all i know is that the current system says

* If you need a decent auger you are forced to specialize in Intelligence

* If you want to play on a (small) map with a low amount of pois you are forced to play with enabled respawn.

* If you want vehicles you are forced to specialize in Intelligence

* + a few more

 

Or you simply use my mod that warrant you these essentials and you can play as you wish. All you need is one trader on the map for the quests.

 

With that you can play Int 1/10 Character, on a small map with 100 Pois at all and with no respawn and no airdrops.

And as nice sideeffect, your outcome is comparable to others and not only luck

[Aldranon]

... I don't suppose you expect people to keep finding gas barrels and cars forever to gain fuel for their mega bases? Or is building and crafting said structures not part of the plan?

 

With this, have you ever explored the oil station POI? I don't remember the exact name, but the word "Oil" is in it.

 

You might want to explore that.

[Maynard69]

I actually do too.....for every item *except* the Beaker. It's just too important. You can't have "an interesting play-though with unique challenges" without a Beaker. Your run is over basically (assuming a difficulty higher than Nomad, and assuming you are not prepared to cheese the AI on horde night).

 

 

 

You still need one Beaker to make gunpowder without a Chem Station. I have none. And no Chem Stations at my traders either.

 

 

 

What like search every Poppin'Pills on the map, including going right back to each and every one of them on a 10 day loot respawn). You think I haven't tried that??

Wait, did they change it recently? Used to be you could craft gunpowder right in your inventory, no beaker needed.

 

 

I cant remember ever making it all the way through 3 Pop-n-pills without finding at least 1 beaker. Again though, you would have infinitely more chances if they put the med-cabinets back into apts and motels and such.

 

What about medical supply thingys in the new POIs. and they have med cabinets, I would think that it would take you way more than 20something days to loot every poi that has those? You tried questing? they drop from there too.

[Maynard69]

I feel like your blowing it out of proportion too. You can get all the ammo you need from traders just wrenching cars and crafting tools. Since a17 I have not felt much pressure to get chem station at all. Even if you really are as incredibly unlucky as you say, you arent stuck.

[Khulkhuum]

I think the main problem here is the varying playstyles people tend to choose. We could argue what everyone likes more, randomness or expected (to some extent) results, but the point is however you choose your game settings, you CAN be screwed with randomness.

 

People will see bad luck or good luck, because their minds make false assumptions. Considering though the worst possible randomness - it is possible to loot every poi on map and visit every trader countless times to not get a beaker. For some not finding it is a breaking point, but like someone said, its a matter of choosing what to do in that playthrough. When you are far enough, counting on getting the beaker, but can't change your skills or get different equipment, there is not much you can do except keep looking.

 

That is the real issue with randomness - you don't have much workaround when you count on random chance giving you essentials. Is beaker an essential? It does block part of the gameplay, similarly like the forge, but forge usage can be worked around.

[Roland]

If you truly feel like you are completely stuck and this constitutes a design flaw then open the cm and give yourself a beaker. You're entitled. This is a game still in development and it is reasonable to except things to break and you never get a beaker.

[AlyssaFaden]

If you truly feel like you are completely stuck and this constitutes a design flaw then open the cm and give yourself a beaker. You're entitled. This is a game still in development and it is reasonable to except things to break and you never get a beaker.

 

Personally, and this is just me, but I love and hate it. We hit something like day 60 before we saw a beaker. Hitting up POIs, treasures, supply drops, and multiple traders, we just could never, ever find one. We've had games like like in earleir versions, too, and then played another game and found one in the first car we've searched.

 

Needing TWO beakers for a bench can be crippling for a long period of time and necessitate that you find a bench somewhere in the world to use, and I HATES IT ... and yet I LOVES IT too.

[Roland]

Personally, and this is just me, but I love and hate it. We hit something like day 60 before we saw a beaker. Hitting up POIs, treasures, supply drops, and multiple traders, we just could never, ever find one. We've had games like like in earleir versions, too, and then played another game and found one in the first car we've searched.

 

Needing TWO beakers for a bench can be crippling for a long period of time and necessitate that you find a bench somewhere in the world to use, and I HATES IT ... and yet I LOVES IT too.

 

You may NOT give yourself a beaker from the cm. Disqualified by your attitude.

[AlyssaFaden]

You may NOT give yourself a beaker from the cm. Disqualified by your attitude.

 

LOL, fair!

 

The whole "holy heck, where are the beakers!!!???" is totally worth it when you eventually go "OMG! HE HAS A BEAKER! BUY IT! BUY IT!"

[Ranzera]

LOL, fair!

 

The whole "holy heck, where are the beakers!!!???" is totally worth it when you eventually go "OMG! HE HAS A BEAKER! BUY IT! BUY IT!"

 

This was my reaction to my first pair of nerd glasses at the trader.