Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[meganoth]

I never witnessed any of those problems.

.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?82769-Zombie-AI-Running-in-circles

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?76220-How-to-fix-zombies-running-in-circles

 

 

The video isn't even showing the best part since at least the player was unreachable on a tower anyway. But normally you could see zombies running in circles even when you were standing right next to them.

 

If you never saw any of that you can't have played A16 for more than a few hours.

[Grue]

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?82769-Zombie-AI-Running-in-circles

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?76220-How-to-fix-zombies-running-in-circles

 

 

The video isn't even showing the best part since at least the player was unreachable on a tower anyway. But normally you could see zombies running in circles even when you were standing right next to them.

 

If you never saw any of that you can't have played A16 for more than a few hours.

 

<shrug> I have probably played more A16 than any other build mainly because it was so long between builds.

 

I cannot say for sure it never happened in my game, but if it did, I never noticed because it would have a negligible effect on my game play.

 

 

If the zombie is walking toward me, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

 

If the zombie is not moving, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

[meganoth]

<shrug> I have probably played more A16 than any other build mainly because it was so long between builds.

 

I cannot say for sure it never happened in my game, but if it did, I never noticed because it would have a negligible effect on my game play.

 

 

If the zombie is walking toward me, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

 

If the zombie is not moving, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

 

Same for me, it didn't disturb me greatly. But with the same fervor you critize the "better" AI now lots of players have been critizicing the circle-running zombies in A16.

 

TFP hired a programmer for A17 to overhaul the AI. Probably not because of all the ridicule the zombies were getting from players, but because they knew they needed a more versatile AI if it has to handle bandits as well.

[Roland]

I see what you are saying now.

 

The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

 

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

Here is what you aren't seeing. (I'll try to be concise Gups)

 

In A1 - A16 all there was were separate commands called tasks in a priority list. The zombies could only do those things and adding more behaviors would have added to the list lengthening the spectrum of priorities and making tasks at the bottom of the list less and less likely to even happen.

 

Attack doors was a task (for example). So Zombies always went for doors and there was no way to make them sometimes go for doors but other times go up a ramp and jump or go find a different wall and start attacking blocks. Those would've needed their own tasks and then who knows how long the list would need to be to cover an infinite number of cases.

 

In addition, there was no way to effectively get smarter enemies for the bandit mobs that are coming in the future.

 

In addtion, the pathing itself was horrible. Many times zombies would get stuck and never come into interaction with the player which might be realistic behavior for something dumb like a zombie is supposed to be but really boring for a video game about interacting with zombies.

 

A17 introduced an overhauled pathing system. It is a huge improvement. Now there is no need for a limiting command for zombies to attack doors. Now they just find the least expensive path to the player and follow that which may or may not involve a door. Right now the zombies have too much information and they all know the shortest path even if it is convoluted and it makes them avoid traps if the cheaper way to go leads them around them. But that will be fixed as faatal limits their knowledge and introduces randomizers on which paths which zombies follow.

 

The new method is better even though the end result will be a return to dumb zombies much like before because it will allow for a greater range of intelligent behavior (Bandits) as well as a much greater variety of behavior among zombies themselves. It will also allow zombies to not get stuck in endless loops as they'll be triggered to follow a different path once they get into a loop. It is a work in progress and it will have benefits not just for this game but for future games involving enemy pathing and AI that TFP plan to do.

[psycros]

Here is what you aren't seeing. (I'll try to be concise Gups)

 

...

 

A17 introduced an overhauled pathing system. It is a huge improvement. Now there is no need for a limiting command for zombies to attack doors. Now they just find the least expensive path to the player and follow that which may or may not involve a door. Right now the zombies have too much information and they all know the shortest path even if it is convoluted and it makes them avoid traps if the cheaper way to go leads them around them. But that will be fixed as faatal limits their knowledge and introduces randomizers on which paths which zombies follow.

 

The new method is better even though the end result will be a return to dumb zombies much like before because it will allow for a greater range of intelligent behavior (Bandits) as well as a much greater variety of behavior among zombies themselves. It will also allow zombies to not get stuck in endless loops as they'll be triggered to follow a different path once they get into a loop. It is a work in progress and it will have benefits not just for this game but for future games involving enemy pathing and AI that TFP plan to do.

 

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

[Laz Man]

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

 

It was the community that has been complaining about the AI prior to A17 for so long and the devs did confirm they would be working on it when the time comes as it was never complete in the 1st place. This change should not be a surprise to anyone.

 

Given we are in Alpha, everyone should expect that features will undergo multiple revisions even without the devs telling us so.

[Guppycur]

Here is what you aren't seeing. (I'll try to be concise Gups)

 

In A1 - A16 all there was were separate commands called tasks in a priority list. The zombies could only do those things and adding more behaviors would have added to the list lengthening the spectrum of priorities and making tasks at the bottom of the list less and less likely to even happen.

 

Attack doors was a task (for example). So Zombies always went for doors and there was no way to make them sometimes go for doors but other times go up a ramp and jump or go find a different wall and start attacking blocks. Those would've needed their own tasks and then who knows how long the list would need to be to cover an infinite number of cases.

 

In addition, there was no way to effectively get smarter enemies for the bandit mobs that are coming in the future.

 

In addtion, the pathing itself was horrible. Many times zombies would get stuck and never come into interaction with the player which might be realistic behavior for something dumb like a zombie is supposed to be but really boring for a video game about interacting with zombies.

 

A17 introduced an overhauled pathing system. It is a huge improvement. Now there is no need for a limiting command for zombies to attack doors. Now they just find the least expensive path to the player and follow that which may or may not involve a door. Right now the zombies have too much information and they all know the shortest path even if it is convoluted and it makes them avoid traps if the cheaper way to go leads them around them. But that will be fixed as faatal limits their knowledge and introduces randomizers on which paths which zombies follow.

 

The new method is better even though the end result will be a return to dumb zombies much like before because it will allow for a greater range of intelligent behavior (Bandits) as well as a much greater variety of behavior among zombies themselves. It will also allow zombies to not get stuck in endless loops as they'll be triggered to follow a different path once they get into a loop. It is a work in progress and it will have benefits not just for this game but for future games involving enemy pathing and AI that TFP plan to do.

 

tldr;

 

Faatal made a total ai package so that later he can use some parts on bandits, some on npc's, some on zombies. Right now we are testing the TOTAL package. Zombies won't always likely have these characteristics.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

 

They have said it. No one listened; people were reading what they wanted to read.

[Quasimiyao]

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

 

Just because they are looking ahead doesnt mean they arent as dedicated to their current game. Thinking about ideas for future games doesnt mean they are diverting staff to work on other games, and imho is common sense for a company wanting to stay in business for longer than one release.

[Guppycur]

Just because they are looking ahead doesnt mean they arent as dedicated to their current game. Thinking about ideas for future games doesnt mean they are diverting staff to work on other games, and imho is common sense for a company wanting to stay in business for longer than one release.

 

Whoa fracking 3 eyed NELLY!

 

This here is the FORUMS. We ain'ts got noes TIMES for noes COMMON fracking SENSE. Y'all best get up on outta'here with dat nonsense.

[Quasimiyao]

Whoa fracking 3 eyed NELLY!

 

This here is the FORUMS. We ain'ts got noes TIMES for noes COMMON fracking SENSE. Y'all best get up on outta'here with dat nonsense.

 

Srry, sometimes I forget where I am. Thx for finding me so I can bring me back home tho.

[Roland]

They haven’t started working on any other game. They are simply designing systems with the perspective that they can be used again in future projects. That’s all I meant. Even some things they experimented with but ultimately rejected for this game may end up being used in a future game.

[Boldero]

They haven’t started working on any other game. They are simply designing systems with the perspective that they can be used again in future projects. That’s all I meant. Even some things they experimented with but ultimately rejected for this game may end up being used in a future game.

 

Good one

[Zomboid]

Feedback from player since Alpha 6

 

If it would be helpful, I would like to provide some feedback for the new Alpha 17 version of the game. I do apologise if this is quite long but hopefully there is some valuable feedback in here somewhere:

 

My Experience & Preface

To keep it short and sweet I have been playing this game since Alpha 6 in a range of forms: singleplayer, 2-player co-op & multiplayer. I generally play on the default settings (but will only drop toolbar on death in 2 player co-op games with my roommate).

 

Obviously all of these observations are from one customer and should be treated as such a sample. At the end of the day the developers are in charge of their product and can do what they like with it but ideally of course we all want to end up with something which is both enjoyable and meets TFP's vision.

 

It's also a good idea to keep in mind, as you read (and I write) this critique, that this game is still in Alpha and is therefore not a "finished" product.

 

Good Things

There are a LOT of positive changes I have seen in A17, I have a suspicion TFP and I may disagree on why some of these changes are positive (based on Gazz's replies) but regardless here they are:

 

- New graphics / lighting / models / animations are excellent. Cannot state this enough, it's at the top for a reason.

- PoI's feel really fun, have lots of "secret" loot and bosses are a huge welcome (HI GRACIE)

- Zombie AI doesn't do stupid things like spin around on a bush whacking thin air

- Dogs have been "fixed" (they used to spin around in circles when attacking in one Alpha and it was infuriating)

- Weather system being toned down but still an important factory

- Inventory system & encumbrance is a much welcome change

- Party system and sharing XP is a godsend

- Quests - while limited right now, they will be a fantastic feature in the future

- New Vehicles - I've only gotten to mess around with the bicycle so far and I'm loving the new system

- Zombies jumping deserves it's own bullet point

- Item mods are fun and while the quality 1,2,3,4,5,6 isn't exactly to my taste (reminds me of WoW days) I can see why it was done

- New stamina / health / max systems are great and a big improvement on wellness

- and many, many more improvements for which they should be commended on for their hard work.

 

Issues with the game

 

Singleplayer

The one major, glaringly obvious issue I'm seeing with single player is that you cannot experience the game fully until much higher levels. E.g. in multiplayer you can have dedicated crafters, melee, stealth, hunters, farmers, etc. but in singleplayer this is pretty much impossible.

 

Singleplayer does create some very interesting new challenges but it also does severely limit that player's experience of the game to the very narrow specialsations (at least until higher levels).

 

Daytime

Until higher levels the daytime is basically a zombie grind. I don't know if that's because I'm only on normal difficulty or because of my playstyle but, barring the odd occassion of being caught unawares in a closed space and/or by dogs, zombies generally are not a threat in daytime until you get to much higher levels (and even then..). Note: this isn't necessarily something that needs "fixing" but it does result in the daytime boiling down to "grind zombies, get loot" which can get a bit repetitive, despite the good job TFP have done with POIs. Unsure on a solution (if one is even needed).

 

Blood Moon & Base Building

By far and large this seems to be where most of the other forum user's complaints (and mine) are centred right now, so bare with me as I try to unpack it.

 

Firstly let's look at the currently accepted ways (as far as I know) to tackle the Blood Moon:

- Take them head on with guns & lots of ammo, netting yourself a lot of XP in exchange for ammo expenditure

- Devise some sort of strange-looking ramp-infested base that forces jumping zombies to do some weird AI shennaningans in order for you to, essentially, shoot/melee fish in a barrel. This seems to be the current "meta" build and feels exploity as hell.

- Possibly melee them? I've seen reports of people preparing lots of coffee and meleeing throughout the night, I don't know how they don't get swamped but it's apparently a thing.

- Set a lot of traps to thin down the horde BUT lose out on a LOT of XP because trap kills = no XP

 

Secondly, let's look at a few things which USED to be possible but are not now:

1. Digging down to bedrock, building a concrete bunker and crying like a baby until morning comes. I admit I have done this a handful of times when things got really hairy.

2. Digging pits to cause fall damage. Never my thing, I preferred log spike fortifications personally.

3. Mazes. Not my thing either but I've seen people have luck with it. Felt a bit exploity.

 

Why is this? A cocktail of the new changes:

- Zombie fall damage was nerfed majorly

- Zombie AI was improved significantly (they now path BETTER than any human could - they are working with perfect information)

- Zombies now get huge increases to block damage when in greater numbers & can dig down

 

Now Roland has said above:

"I have never ever heard once during developer discussions a single developer say, “We gotta oust people from playing underground”. Again the OP makes the faulty assumption that the devs are out to stop the players from playing a certain way which is not true."

 

While it may be true that the intention wasn't to eliminate certain methods of play (Gazz admits they do this, contradicting Roland: see Gazz quote below), the effect is still the same: some methods have been eliminated (or, if not eliminated, made much harder). So let's work through that list above, shall we?

 

I think we can all agree that many exploits have been fixed and that zombies not being able to dig in general was a bit of an oversight that needed to be corrected.

 

Zombie AI working on perfect information has been an improvement in many ways but does also make it very difficult when they decide to avoid traps or take a path to you that they couldn't possibly have seen or known about rather than just mindlessly shamble/run towards you ala Day of the Dead.

 

Fall damage is an interesting one. Gazz (a developer) had this to say:

"If a pit kills every zombie with zero maintenance then it should be pretty easy to see why that needs to be fixed.

Every other means of zombie killing requires some degree of constant effort, supplies or maintenance. See the problem now?"

 

And my answer is: no, Gazz, I do not see the problem. Roland (a mod) often cites in this thread that people should be experimenting and meeting the challenge of designing new bases... yet when people find an easy solution, you take it away. This is a first strike for me. A developer cannot "meet the challenge" of players creating a clever solution so they just alter physics.

 

So, please, let me offer you several possibly solutions:

- More flying enemies that obviously can't struggle with falls

- Zombies which can stretch and behave as bridges

- Zombies that can jump further (see: what you guys did with Spider zombies)

- A mechanic to "catch" yourself when falling

- Some sort of larger monstrous zombies who are too big to fall down a pit

- Zombie skydivers who have paraachutes that deploy when falling large distances & stop other zombies taking fall damage. Meaning they're now at the bottom of your pit and will tear down your foundations

- Bodies at the bottom of a pit reducing the fall damage drastically (meaning one or two will die but then they will pile up)

- Accepting a clever solution and accepting that digging a massive moat requires a lot of effort. To reiterate: It isn't my playstyle but if other people want to do it, why stop them?

 

The final point, and by far the most contentious, is the block damage. Thankfully, as Roland helpfully points out, TFP are adding an option to adjust block damage.

 

I will say that in my experience in its current state zombie block damage is obscene. I have had concrete structures torn down very quickly on day 14 & 21 by 100+ zombies because they all pile in together and get the "group" bonus. Personally, I think they should deal the same damage (or slightly more) as my fists do to concrete. Doors etc on the other hand are fair game, but that's just my opinion.

 

1/2 posts - sorry it's ended up being quite long!!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Developer Comments & Game Vision

Gazz & Roland's replies in general do give me a cause for worry as it seems the games vision has deviated from where I previously though it was: a sandbox zombie survival game. It appears to be morphing into some try-hard "git gud" base design meta game where only the most ridiculously quirky (read: AI shennanigans) bases are worth building in the long term.

 

Sometimes, guys, the onus isn't on the players to adapt and come up with solutions. A lot of the time that's the developers job. See: the fall damage paragraph above.

 

An interesting note I would like to make here, that many other people have made, is that the game offers a huge number of options but unfortunately a number of them aren't really very viable. A stealth specialist will excel in days 1-6 but is effectively useless in a Blood Moon because zombies are automatically aware of you. Gazz also explicitly states that melee-exclusive builds are crippled:

 

"If you insist that melee will be your only means of dealing damage in base defense then you are voluntarily putting yourself at a major disadvantage."

 

So I do have to question why these options are even in the game at all if using them as you primary specilisation puts you a "major disadvantage"? My own opinion is that, without realising it, TFP have managed to create a situation where only a handful of playstyles are viable for dealing with Blood Moon hordes (providing you don't cheese the AI).

[Zomboid]

Early Access / Wiki / Merchandising

I do also want to make a few quick notes RE: this subheader:

 

- The game has been in early access for a considerable time now and every Alpha brings with it an almost entirely new rendition of the game. I am beginning to be worried that it will be this way forever or if there is an actual roadmap (I did check the developer thread but there are over 3300 pages as of today).

 

- I cannot stress this one enough: when TFP release a new Alpha, please realise that a large portion of the community are expecting it to be stable and thoroughly tested. Yes, I know that's an unfair standard to hold it to but from reading all of the community comments on here / steam / reddit I can say that seems to be the prevailing feedback for years.

 

- The Wiki needs updating. I would honestly recommend hiring someone to be dedicated to updating it because as it stands the wiki is partially useless. The landing page takes you to a 16.4 video and news from summer 2016.

 

- I did note in the news that TFP have begun merchandising? Please, guys, I would recommend on finishing the game first and getting it out on all platforms before focussing on merch. Just my opinion but it comes across to me as a bit of a money grab on an unfinished game. I understand the devs themselves may not have much say in this so ignore as necessary.

 

Atmosphere on this forum

I do have to also point out that the atmosphere and snark from all parties on this forum is absolutely disgraceful and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. I completely condemn the ♥♥♥♥ slinging being thrown at the devs but I would also like to provide a bit of constructive feedback to the mods (I can only apologise to Roland here but you're the most active in this thread so I've drawn mostly your examples. I'm not singling Roland out here and I would like to note that in general he seems to be a balanced and effective mod. We all make mistakes. If you're not Roland or Gazz, skip this section. It isn't intended for you..)

 

When people come with complaints, a mod, however, should not be replying with things like this (taken partially out of context by me so bare that in mind when it comes to judging and fairness):

 

"All you are exposing is your own lack of creativity..." <------ (Ad Hominem attack and blaming the customer seems unacceptable to me. I am an employer and if my employees said that to my customers they would be firmly reprimanded unless said customer was an utter twonk.)

 

"If you can’t figure out how to do it or if solving such puzzles is not fun for you be patient because eventually there will be instructions provided by those who do like to adapt and overcome." <------ Condescending & insulting

 

"Not an attack. Just the way it is in life, my friend. There are those who give up without trying and call challenges insurmountable and impossible and there are those who get to work and through innovation and creativity they do what the first group proclaims is impossible." <----- Again condescending & insinuating things about the poster's character

 

"There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through." <----- again condescending & insulting. Frankly completely unacceptable and the strikethrough is utterly unprofessional and unnecessary.

 

I will point out that none of this has been directed at me (as of posting) but at other users - whom I will point out are even worse than the examples above. Far worse. I have pretty much used Roland-only examples so I do want to apologise if it feels like I'm attacking him, I'm not. I also think what Gazz said above came off as wishy-washy, condescending, out of touch and unprofessional as well.

[Hek Harris]

Regarding the answers of moderators you quoted, it's really a personal feeling. Personally, I find it often funny, sometimes gently mocking, always calm and ... moderate, in short I don't find it condescending and even less insulting. On the forums or the IRC, it's rather easy to give to a text an intention that it doesn't have.

 

It's also necessary to take into account the aggressiveness or contempt of which certain posts are sometimes colored, this explaining the necessary reframing by the moderators.

[Zomboid]

Regarding the answers of moderators you quoted, it's really a personal feeling. Personally, I find it often funny, sometimes gently mocking, always calm and ... moderate, in short I don't find it condescending and even less insulting. On the forums or the IRC, it's rather easy to give to a text an intention that it doesn't have.

 

It's also necessary to take into account the aggressiveness or contempt of which certain posts are sometimes colored, this explaining the necessary reframing by the moderators.

 

I can agree with that to an extent yeah - and I do point out above that generally this is when mods are replying to some rather scathing or disgusting posts directed at them. I do think that in a thread as, er, contentious(?) and argumentative as this, the mods (and devs) in particular should be picking their words wisely given they are the company's community leaders on the board here.

 

I do think there could be a bit more deleting of abusive posts but of course that runs the risk of people wanting to shout about free peaches & censorship in retaliation.

 

It may be that I've read them incorrectly as it's easy to do online but the comments I've quoted (when in context and mostly out of context too) are poorly worded and come across to me as being condescending / insulting.

[Roland]

Now Roland has said above:

"I have never ever heard once during developer discussions a single developer say, “We gotta oust people from playing underground”. Again the OP makes the faulty assumption that the devs are out to stop the players from playing a certain way which is not true."

 

Gazz (a developer) had this to say:

"If a pit kills every zombie with zero maintenance then it should be pretty easy to see why that needs to be fixed.

Every other means of zombie killing requires some degree of constant effort, supplies or maintenance. See the problem now?"

 

While it may be true that the intention wasn't to eliminate certain methods of play (Gazz admits they do this, contradicting Roland)

 

Where do you see a contradiction? Gazz didn't say, "In an effort to stop players from digging pits we have made the following change..." The devs were not trying to end pit digging as a part of base defense. Fall damage wasn't eliminated only instant death from a fall was. Pits soften them up for further damage to be done by additional traps (with maintenance costs) or the actively playing player.

 

 

the effect is still the same: some methods have been eliminated (or, if not eliminated, made much harder).

 

The methods eliminated were deemed to be exploits by the designers of the game. Sorry, if you disagree, but honestly the developers have to stick to their own definition of what an exploit is and not the player base definition. Players are notorious for having a power bias and being resistant to strategies and abilities that have both an upside and a downside. Players tend to only want upside. Other strategies have been made to be more challenging. Yes.

 

But, that is what makes a game a game-- win vs loss. There must be opportunity for both. You show me a game without opportunity for both winning and losing and I'll show you an interactive experience falsely calling itself a game.

[Roland]

I'm not singling Roland out here

 

LIE!

 

and I would like to note that in general he seems to be a balanced and effective mod.

 

TRUTH!

 

I guess it balances to neutral...

 

"All you are exposing is your own lack of creativity..."

 

"If you can’t figure out how to do it or if solving such puzzles is not fun for you be patient because eventually there will be instructions provided by those who do like to adapt and overcome."

 

"Not an attack. Just the way it is in life, my friend. There are those who give up without trying and call challenges insurmountable and impossible and there are those who get to work and through innovation and creativity they do what the first group proclaims is impossible."

 

"There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through."

 

I agree that I could have been more....bland....in my responses. <shrug> I stand by the veracity of everything I said. It has turned out to be true. There ARE a variety of bases being built and a variety of strategies being used and threads are popping up describing in the form of instructions for how others can employ those same strategies and bases. The people who complained and called base design impossible when A17 first released have been proven utterly and completely wrong. Things proclaimed impossible are possible.

 

So what would you say accounts for that? Could it be that just like in life there are some who give up too easily and who don't try or who can't see a new solution.....until.....others do it and show how it can be done?

 

It is also true that some players are ignoring the variety of bases that are possible because they are more work than some of the easy exploits that are currently available. What's interesting is they keep posting that the exploits are the only viable way to build a base because they are so easy so you MUST use them. When those exploits are closed then what shall they do? (Or would that be another contradiction of what I posted earlier )

[RipClaw]

There ARE a variety of bases being built and a variety of strategies being used and threads are popping up describing in the form of instructions for how others can employ those same strategies and bases.

 

I wouldn't call it a variety of base designs.

 

Basically, almost all designs can be traced back to a common strategy. You give the zombies a seemingly free path to follow and use the zombies' pathfinding against them. The rest are just variations of what the zombies expect on the way until they reach the player.

 

The only other working strategy I've come across so far utilizes the pathfinding in a different way by digging trenches and filling them with spikes. But it is not a very effective method because you need a lot of spikes for a decent horde.

[Roland]

I’ve also seen old classic designs but with fallback positions built in so that as they break through that weakest point and you are about to be overrun you can escape to a new line of safety.

 

Also saying that kill corridors don’t represent variety is not correct. I’ve seen many different corridor designs. I could generalize the previous meta to...”walls” and say that all strategies basically involved a type of defensible wall.

 

Finally, the discovery of what’s possible ain’t over yet...

[Lanadon Conners]

I am still experimenting with the old "Tower above a Bunker" defense popularized in A16. The tower and bunker is reinforced concrete and surrounded by hundreds of spikes and mines with the only access being a concrete ramp 20 blocks long, 3 block wide bridge. It is the easiest access to me but is covered by 2 shotgun turrets and bars on the sides to prevent Z's falling and targeting the reinforced supports below. The tower is topped by a Iron bar enclosed top that holds my Gen banks. On each 7th day I turn off my forges, campfires and Chem stations to lower the below ground attraction and blast away with the marksman rifle until morning. Thus far, day 42 and still going.

 

 

This is working for me because since the first Horde night I have tried to adapt and add to my survival chances in this version until the next one, where I will probably have to totally revamp defensive strat to make headway in A18.

[Roland]

Early Access / Wiki / Merchandising

I do also want to make a few quick notes RE: this subheader:

 

- The game has been in early access for a considerable time now and every Alpha brings with it an almost entirely new rendition of the game. I am beginning to be worried that it will be this way forever or if there is an actual roadmap (I did check the developer thread but there are over 3300 pages as of today).

 

I don't see it that way. They have been following their plan but also experimenting with different implementations of that plan. If you look at how player progression has evolved since A11 there is a clear and undeniable reduction of what people call "learn by doing" and which I call "accomplish by macro". If Alpha's A11 - A17 had been released in quick succession you would be able to see it as well. The only roadmap you will find is the kickstarter goal list which internally they have re-prioritized. Whether the time in development has been long or short is dependent on each person's own sensibilities. Many companies wait until they are almost done with development before releasing the game to early access. TFP released theirs early and have done most of the development in view of the player base.

 

- I cannot stress this one enough: when TFP release a new Alpha, please realise that a large portion of the community are expecting it to be stable and thoroughly tested. Yes, I know that's an unfair standard to hold it to but from reading all of the community comments on here / steam / reddit I can say that seems to be the prevailing feedback for years.

 

Those people are wrong and they can pound sand. You said it is unfair yourself. They can wait for the destination if they can't handle the journey. Even if the people with that view are the majority it doesn't change reality.

 

- The Wiki needs updating. I would honestly recommend hiring someone to be dedicated to updating it because as it stands the wiki is partially useless. The landing page takes you to a 16.4 video and news from summer 2016.

 

Wikis are up to the player base. TFP does not endorse or maintain any wikis. Personally, I think wiki's are a waste of time to do now. Even modders experience fatigue having to redo stuff with each update and I can't imagine wiki authoring being remotely as satisfying as modding. Could be wrong. If you have passion about it then get to editing. The Wiki is in your hands.

 

- I did note in the news that TFP have begun merchandising? Please, guys, I would recommend on finishing the game first and getting it out on all platforms before focussing on merch. Just my opinion but it comes across to me as a bit of a money grab on an unfinished game. I understand the devs themselves may not have much say in this so ignore as necessary.

 

We have had complaints about the merchandise release. It pretty much summarizes to "Why are there no mugs?!"

 

lol

[Roland]

i am still experimenting with the old "tower above a bunker" defense popularized in a16. The tower and bunker is reinforced concrete and surrounded by hundreds of spikes and mines with the only access being a concrete ramp 20 blocks long, 3 block wide bridge. It is the easiest access to me but is covered by 2 shotgun turrets and bars on the sides to prevent z's falling and targeting the reinforced supports below. The tower is topped by a iron bar enclosed top that holds my gen banks. On each 7th day i turn off my forges, campfires and chem stations to lower the below ground attraction and blast away with the marksman rifle until morning. Thus far, day 42 and still going.

 

 

This is working for me because since the first horde night i have tried to adapt and add to my survival chances in this version until the next one, where i will probably have to totally revamp defensive strat to make headway in a18.

 

impossible!!!!

 

[RipClaw]

I’ve also seen old classic designs but with fallback positions built in so that as they break through that weakest point and you are about to be overrun you can escape to a new line of safety.

 

In other words, with these bases, you hope the zombies won't destroy your entire base while you retreat room by room and have enough ammo to fend off the horde. That's what I call gambling, not strategy.

 

I test each of my base designs against a gamestage 450 horde on Nomad difficulty and if the base has survived that I test it again against a gamestage 900 horde.

 

Only if the base has survived such a horde without major damage and the repairs take less than an ingame day do I consider the base to be valid. A base doesn't help me if I have to rebuild it every time after a horde.

 

I also tested what ammo it would take to fight a gamestage 450 horde alone with firearms. The consumption was about 6000 rounds of ammunition. There can be no talk of efficiency.

 

People who defend their base that way are lucky that steel ammunition was introduced. If you were dependent on brass it would hardly be possible to produce 6000 rounds per week.

 

Also saying that kill corridors don’t represent variety is not correct. I’ve seen many different corridor designs. I could generalize the previous meta to...”walls” and say that all strategies basically involved a type of defensible wall.

 

I can also build dozens of different variations of bases based on ramps. One has a deep pit under the ramp with spikes. The next has electric fences and blade traps and the next has arrow traps.

 

Nevertheless the ramp bases were always summarized under one term and not considered as individual designs.

[RestInPieces]

I can also build dozens of different variations of bases based on ramps. One has a deep pit under the ramp with spikes. The next has electric fences and blade traps and the next has arrow traps.

 

Nevertheless the ramp bases were always summarized under one term and not considered as individual designs.

 

It's not strictly kill corridors/ramps or whatever, it's pathfinding. It is what the TD genre is about and allows for way more creativity than just putting walls between you and the enemy, as tRoland said. 7DTD doesn't work as a pure TD though, so the ideal thing would be a combination of the two, with a more "horde-like" AI and various different zombie profiles, bringing back some of the old zombie randomness.