Smart vs Dumb Zombies?

[Viktoriusiii]

Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post

Good AI knows everything and all optimal paths and choices but then is limited in choosing the best path through obfuscation

What? _No_. Good NPC AI has the information its agent would have and does what its agent would do with it. The metric is, how fun (it's a game) is it to go up against the agent.

Well yes andno.

Good A.I. needs to know everything and descide which information the "agent", as you say, would know.

This way they can sometimes "cheat" inunnoticable ways to make the experience better.

 

So a zombie could "randomly" hit a weaker part of the defense. He could "randomly" spawn in a way where he might have an easier time to get you. He might "randomly" group up with zombies or hit supports or or or.

 

The more the A.I. knows, the better the end experience (if balanced well).

 

 

For example "shuffle" options in mp3/mobile phones at their introduction featured "true" randomness and people complained, that certain songs were always played or that they would see patterns where there were none. So now shuffle keeps in mind when a song was last played, how often you manually listened to it, which songs you mostly skip and more and descides based on those variables.

 

Currently, they know enough, but aren't tweeked at all (or close to it). Which is why they are too smart.

 

But they find small openings in the ground to underground bases, which is nice.

[DerValiser]

If Post-A17 is the Pre-Stream Version I clearly choose this.

Since B231 Zombies are dumb as hell as in A16.

[giltirn]

yes I know they want a black and white answer but they are asking the wrong question! it should be what type of zombie AI do you want! my answer was both. Just because we have never had it doesn't mean its not worth getting or trying why we are in Alpha mode.

 

A fair point. From my perspective, I want the zombies to act believably. They should not have xray vision, hands made of jackhammers and have intimate structural knowledge that would otherwise set them up as a very well paid construction engineer. I want dumb shamblers that can be led into traps and blind corners, that fall into pits. Stuff that makes building a fort enjoyable. If there was some way to take the A17 pathing algorithm and loosen it up so that zombies still feel believably like dumb shamblers while still being able to find paths to players in hard to reach places then I would be happy. Maybe a really dumb algorithm would allow them to make the hordes bigger?

[Frotus]

I voted for current. As a starting place it is vastly superior and I have confidence that faatal can really make it shine. All it really needs is some random behaviors added in and a bit more obfuscation that the zombies always know the ideal pathway to your location.

 

Yes, a zombie should wander into the right path; seemingly accidentally and then other zombies will notice the boon of the 'smarter' zombie and start to follow. It is almost like watching a stream form during a heavy rainfall. Water will seemingly scatter until it finds a common path (in this case due to gravity) and then form a stream around a common path eventually.

[Frotus]

Voted PreA17 which is what I would call the smart zombies. A17 they are just way to predictable which makes them easy to manipulate and kill.

 

To this point, Making them too "smart" has actually made them dumb in that they are 99% predictable.

 

We may be working against the current laws of physics and current h/w capabilities... Meaning:

Every 'real-time' game with an AI ends up leveraging the fact the CPU is a master aimbot and knows where the player is at all times.

 

In order to layer enough algorithms to outsmart a human, one would need more than the one or two game ticks they have to process the next action of the AI every game tick or so. So the fact that the game ticks go faster than an AI can actually process, FPS games end up with dumb AI's that merely use aimbot skills to increase difficulty. When you play a turned base game like Chess, with max difficulty, the CPU can take up to a minute (used to be a lot longer) to make a move.

The AIs beating people at GO are more than just some little INtel/AMD laptop with a NVidia in them.

 

So hack away at the AI all you want, you will run into performance issue before you get a zombie AI to outsmart humans (since Zombies don't carry ranged weapons)

 

Zombie games typically have gone for the opposite approach, which is to increase the number of enemies to a crazy level and not try to have any sort of complex AI system. The problem here is you are running into performance issues with the number of Models you are displaying. This makes a zombie horde a big performance hit when you are trying to use dozens of different models. That is why you guys tried UMA zombies for awhile, so a big horde would still be diverse. That also caused performance issues for other reasons.

 

So we go in a circle and no one is ever happy... We need to innovate here.

[Ranzera]

I think this is a disingenuous poll. Pre-A17 means what? A16? At any point? The AI was objectively broken in A16. Broken as in it didn't work at all. I don't want that. I also don't want the zeds to be structural engineers. Though it would be neat if say the construction worker zombies did something like this, while the others did not.

 

I want functional zombie AI that doesn't break immersion. Where's that option?

[FranticDan]

On a slightly unrelated note from all this, I want zombies to trip, stumble, and fall over stuff.

 

If a zombie runs off a cliff, I want it to faceplant.

 

This so much, very immersive!

[crossed]

Overall I like the new AI.

Like, even in maze-like POIs if they fall through the foor or something they'll find their way back up to you, it just makes POIs more dangerous and it's pretty awesome.

 

However I agree that for base defense they need to be way more random and "zombie-like". Not all of them going for the same spot, not actively avoiding traps etc..

[Pizzalicious]

17 - every zombie during horde is a sapper, can spawn close as 10 blocks away? (not a fan) Needs to be 50 away like previous versions. Everyone getting a horde is fine but in 14 specifically 14.7 a huge horde coming was a blast. Now its just 8 or so at a time, when it works properly. Also zombies that come from all directions is a better idea, not just one specific spawn point or points just like a screamer horde.

 

Zombie ai in the buildings is fine/out in the world however there needs to be ALOT more out in the world not just only sleepers

 

Really miss the random running horde during the day time that would go after a random player, once or twice a day. Always kept you on your toes like in 15

[Damocles]

Its easier to make a good ai (mostly pathfinding and path following are the topic here) worse when needed, than to make a bad ai good when needed.

So from a development standpoint, the current situation is way more comfortable.

 

For the pathing: introducing randomness would help making the zombies act more unpredictable.

 

More precise: the optimal path should randomly get higher costs at choke points (path-point with player edited blocks beneath and on the sides, eg corridors): this would make the pathfinding look for alternative routes.

Also, position on the path where the zombies suddenly "loose" the calculated path (falling down a trap) or where several died before should also get a higher cost at that points voxel-position. The zombie crowd following would then look for an alternative path, (unless its really the only one.)

 

Having different zombies have different cost-calculations would also make a group of them more unpredictable.

 

Also: crowd of dumb zombies (entertaining) would be more scary, if only one of them COULD use the current optimal pathfinding. The player would never be sure if cheezing them is safe.

[Ghostlight]

A poll with lots of options, or no poll at all, leads to diluted and unfocused results that nobody can draw any conclusions from. .

 

Brexit says hi.

[Ghostlight]

I'm guessing people who voted for A17 zombies are those who can't be bothered building a base and who enjoy exploiting the AI. There is no other explanation. I mean it takes about 20 blocks and 5 ramps to completely cheese the A17 AI to the point that not one single block of your base will be attacked. How in the name of Satan's portion is that good?

 

Horde night is crap now, when it used to be the game's highlight. Your choice is cheese the AI and your base takes zero damage, OR build a proper base and try fighting them normally - and have the most BORING experience imaginable as they all troop over to the first gap made in your defences and conga-line in like obedient little sheep.

 

YAWN

[Evorith]

If this poll was going to be used to help work out what AI to go forward with well short or even long term, honestly its the wrong question. The AI needs to challenge the players, sometimes that means not giving them everything they want. I would go with the AI that can be changed, adjusted and is better for the servers and will allow for variations running at the same time. I honestly think you are going to need variation from the AI and the zombies, All of them doing the same thing is going to make it to easy to exploit. For me I don't like the idea that they are so smart doesn't make sense, however that doesn't mean you cant have the odd one doing this, Why variation is going to be the key. I like the Vulture AI difference and we need more of that why I suggested the instinctive behaviour for each type of zombie, add some dumb zombies and it will make it very hard to cheese them. Sometimes asking the wrong question gets you the right answer which is both or a variation of it.

[SnakeWildlife]

I have played a few 7 day hordes now, and its just the same over and over. Even when i'm trying different builds it just leads to the same result. Get the zombies into a tight corridor to lay down fire because they will always, everytime, do the same path and ignore most of your base. 99% of your base is ignored so dont bother with traps. Just use some barbed wire if you are reloading a little slowly.

 

This is boring and has sucked out most of the fun/fear for me, go back to A16 but increase spawns. A huge rush of of dumb zombies attacking my base from all sides was more fun than a small stream of zombies pathing directly towards me in the same line. You can survive a 7 day horde now without even having to move your mouse, and just wait for all the heads to line up with your sight.

 

Exploiting the Ai into a Kill-Path in A17 seems to be the ONLY way to build, even if you dont want to build that way, because the honest gamer inside of you absolutely detests having to do this.

[giltirn]

Zombie games typically have gone for the opposite approach, which is to increase the number of enemies to a crazy level and not try to have any sort of complex AI system. The problem here is you are running into performance issues with the number of Models you are displaying. This makes a zombie horde a big performance hit when you are trying to use dozens of different models. That is why you guys tried UMA zombies for awhile, so a big horde would still be diverse. That also caused performance issues for other reasons

 

I'd be fine with just 3 or 4 models if it meant having large hordes. Cut out the fancy AI, reduce the poly counts but fill the world with teeming legions of dumb shamblers slowly and inexorably closing on your position at all times. Every step should make me fear drawing the horde.

[OzHawkeye]

I'd be fine with just 3 or 4 models if it meant having large hordes. Cut out the fancy AI, reduce the poly counts but fill the world with teeming legions of dumb shamblers slowly and inexorably closing on your position at all times. Every step should make me fear drawing the horde.

 

Agreed. I could even live with a single "generic Zombie" if it meant I could turn a corner in a city and see a thousand of 'em shambling their way towards me.

[Roland]

I think this is a disingenuous poll. Pre-A17 means what? A16? At any point? The AI was objectively broken in A16. Broken as in it didn't work at all. I don't want that. I also don't want the zeds to be structural engineers. Though it would be neat if say the construction worker zombies did something like this, while the others did not.

 

I want functional zombie AI that doesn't break immersion. Where's that option?

 

One of your fellow forum users asked me to make a poll to see if people liked the zombies from before A17 better than the zombies of A17. I obliged because I’m nice like that.

 

Nobody at TFP devised this poll to trick anyone into anything and this poll will not guide future development. It is a discussion starter and nothing more.

[stasis78]

Thank you for the thread Roland. It’s good to see people discuss stuff like this

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I want the zombies to be smarter like in a17 but even more so. A16 got boring during horde night. The problem, which I know is being worked on, is that it’s impossible to melee day 7 (the first day 7) with how stam works right now (with zombies faster than walk)

[Agarthan]

I think it needs to be somewhere in between the two. The fact that they actually come to the source of a sound again now is nice, the fact that they completely path around all traps and obstacles and only attack one spot on your base, not because you are standing on the other side, but because they've calculated all the blocks and know it's the weakest spot, isn't.

 

Things that, in my opinion could make the zombies a lot better.

 

1. Reintroduce the mechanic where a zombie hunts or senses you that it hisses and alerts other nearby zombies.

 

2. Find a way to drastically increase zombie counts and balance it out by making them less of damage sponges

[skylynx]

It's all about blood moons.

 

I think Alpha 15 zombies were perfect. Some pathing, nothing too crazy, but not getting stuck like in A16.

 

A17 blood moons enforce "cheese meta" too much, takes me out of the game. Imagine if in an rpg game enemies would choose to do massive attacks of fire/cold/lighting based on what resistance was the lowest on your character and they wouldn't attack at all if all resistances were at 0, and you would have to cheese the mechanic to survive by not having any resistances on your gear. Current A17 blood moon pathing feels game breaking like that.

 

Zombies need to be a bit more random, to avoid converging on a single block. They also need to be more direct, just enough to walk around minor obstacles, but avoiding doing long detours.

 

If player is above the ground on a safe platform, then start hitting closest supporting block. Not the one that is weakest, not the one that is brings the structure down, the one that is closest.

 

Good things about A17 zombies is that they dig and spiders jump far. Digging is very a creepy zombie behavior and it should stay.

[Vedui]

Neither option

 

Pre-A17 was good for hordes. They came for your base and attacked it.

 

Post-A17 is great for POI's. They find you and kill you without bashing and breaking the whole POI (mostly, not always).

 

I'd prefer if sleeper zombies had the new AI, and the horde zombies had the old AI + digging/bashing supports if players are detected within a reasonable say 15-20 blocks, else just bash whatever. Of course, fix the spinning stuff A16 introduced, but without the super pathing.

 

[HeLLKnight]

Miscreated game has 12 mutant AI behaviors. I think a17 AI core is a great start point to make variations for every zombie type. For example combine this:

 

 

- a18 bandits will be the smartest. Can follow long paths, search for coverage while firing weapons, cooperate between them to surround you, do ambushes.

- new kind of smart zombies (lets call smart ferals): can follow long paths, can jump forward little holes (1 or 2 blocks), avoid the most obvious traps, but do less damage to blocks

- standard zombies can follow only short paths, jump 1 block upward, little random about weak blocks

- ferals like standard but stronger and they run

- police, hawaian and bikers the dumbest: doesn't know jump upward or forward, can't decide which block is weaker other than doors but do a lot of damage to blocks.

- dogs and wolves can jump forward little holes (1 or 2 blocks)

- Other little variations to spiders and screamers

- All of them with less "conga line" and more surround you

- Plus different resistances to blade and bullets (policemans, soldiers) blunt weapons (bikers, hawaians) fire mods (scorched zeds) ice mods (lumberjacks)

[MaxTunnerX]

I voted Pre-A17 behaviour.

 

Bandits I can see being smart. Zombies ought to be (or return to being) dumb.

 

Hopefully in A18, Bandits inherit zombies current AI.

 

The primary threat from zombies ought to be their sheer numbers, not their omniscient knowledge of the map I reckon.

 

Yes, please stop having zombies with PhD, supersenses, superspeed, and unquenchable need for griefing houses nobody is even inside of. Zombies should be slow, dumb, but at the same time somehow resilient (unless you hit them in the head), numerous and dangerous in close range (infection that makes you one of them even with one bite). And most importantly, they should NOT attack blocks just because they are in their path, they should get stuck/get around unless they sense someone on the other side.

 

But of course, best solution would be a toggle (zombies: smart/dumb). Maybe add that to the poll as well? Also I don't remember stupid zombies in any build. In A16 they were basically blind and deaf, but still smart and fast as ****, not to mention dogs that always run no matter the settings...

[Fuffel]

Moin.

 

I was really excited about the zombies in the first experimental version of the Alpha 17. And even if officially nothing has been changed, something has changed, because the zombies of the stable version of Alpha 17 are largely as dumb as in the Alpha 16.

 

Example: I am standing in a POI at the end of a corridor. 1 block raised on a wall. The zombies just have to go down the hallway and jump up a block to reach me. Instead, they walk 2 yards into the hallway, break through the wall to the right, walk something that feels like half an hour, outside around and then try to attack from behind, where they have to jump 6 blocks high, which they can not do.

 

AI is something different. As the AI is now, it is an insult to anyone who plays at higher levels of difficulty because he wants to be challenged.

What I would like to have are zombies whose AI is different in sophistication, depending on the level of difficulty. I play "Survivalist" and "Insane" and I want to have zombies that are not as stupid as someone who plays "Scavenger".

 

Someone at TFP should try out all sorts of ruses a player can think of, check out all sorts of base architectures, watch streams and LetsPlays, how the players outsmart the zombies, and than build an AI that, at least on the Survivalist and Insane levels, Adapt so that the zombies can not be outwitted by all this ruses.

 

No matter how. Better pathfinding, stronger opponents or just mass. On Insane, I expect the Bloodmoon Horde to reduce my base to rubble. I want to be forced to think of new defenses, to use more and more materials, and not to build a base for day 14, which I can still use on day 42, because almost nothing is broken.

 

I play Insane because I want to be challenged. Since I want to have an opponent who can not be easily outwitted with a ramp, a hatch or a handful of spikes. Above all, I want to have blood moon nights that deserve this name. Yesterday I played the 5th Bloodmoon on "Insane", Day 35. And like in the 4 blood moons before, I was able to leave my base at 01:30 and farm resources all around, because nobody came anymore.

 

This is not "Insane", that's an insult. And the really bad thing is that unlike Vanilla, it works in the current, experimental Darkness Falls Mod. There you are called the whole night and then still have plenty of opponents left. Why does this work better in an experimental mod than in a stable vanilla?

 

Well, the zombies are just as stupid. But at least the Horde works for that.

 

With Alpha 17 at the moment, I have to say quite honestly that I can not wait to see stable versions of a Darkness Falls or Ravenhearst Mod that at least challenge me with hard-to-master classes, much slower leveling and really 6 hour bloodmoon. The Alpha 17 Vanilla just can not do that right now.

 

And to be honest, a construction of alpha 17, where the blood moon horde is over after 2 hours, call a stable version, is an impudence.

[Glaston]

Variety is good.

 

I like how some of the Modded versions of the game have altered behaviour of the zombies.

Varying heights within a type of zombie to make headshots more difficult as in Ravenhearst.

Varying run styles from vanilla.

 

In Gnamod you can get any type of zombie being a spider and the napalm spitters are awesome.