skullpoker Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I voted for current. As a starting place it is vastly superior and I have confidence that faatal can really make it shine. All it really needs is some random behaviors added in and a bit more obfuscation that the zombies always know the ideal pathway to your location. This seems like you should have included a 3rd option in the middle. I am quite sure that the 3rd option here would have been right, but given the 2 options now, I prefer the first. Zombies should go for the stupid solution and chance onto the right solution. There should not be an intelligent process, only that a few zombies out of the first 2 dozen go to the right point, and overcome the weakness in about 1/6-1/20 the time they should if they were Architectural experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 A16, because I extrapolate that if the a17 ones are going to be fixed, that the a16 ones would have been as well (fix spinning, hit up/down). That, and the current behavior should be reserved for BANDITS, which I no longer believe are going to be coming.* *I'm sure bandits will be introduced, just not in a meaningful way, i.e. bandit hordes... They'll probably just be guarding strongholds barely ducking for cover, much less moving... I certainly don't think that we will be getting the bandits madmole so lovingly described back in the day... The game is moving towards static play with linear progression, I don't see that changing, i.e. no more NEW dynamic elelements, just passive threats that we have to go to (not ones that come to us). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giltirn Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I agree with this post. Most things that zombies do now are very necessary exploit fixes. The way they attack a building according to its SI or the way they path around it to get to you are great additions. However, they're still zombies, and zombies are known to have null self-preservation. They shouldn't actively avoid traps. Zombies should also not know the difference between wood and concrete, nor should they have x-ray vision that allows them to precisely judge the width of a wall. Zombies are not master structural engineers! It's daft! There must be some reasonable compromise between robot super-AI and "gets stuck, spins on the spot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 1, 2019 Author Share Posted January 1, 2019 First of all this poll was requested by one of you and these are the options they wanted to know. I’m not trying to lead anyone anywhere. Either you like the zombies better now or you liked them better before. There is nothing more to it than that. I could just as easily (wrongly) speculate that some who don’t want to vote for either just don’t want to give ANY positive spin to A17 even though they like it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Great_Sephiroth Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I had to sit and think about this. Traditional zombies in film and print are not smart nor are they fast. However, I despised having them level houses to get to me in A16. I'd be inside a house looting and instead of finding a way in they simply started leveling crap. The new AI has managed to startle me multiple times and very little damage occurs to buildings now. One thing I dislike is them randomly jumping around. I suppose they're jamming to , but watching them on a flat area simply jumping around is silly. I also dislike them randomly just destroying chunks of ground. I mean with me miles away watching through a scope, one is walking along and then just slaps the ground for no reason. Beyond that I like them. *EDIT* Since bandits were mentioned, I keep imagining them as the ones in Borderlands. Wonder if we can slip one of them in as an Easter Egg without pissing Gearbox off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydious Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Voted PreA17 which is what I would call the smart zombies. A17 they are just way to predictable which makes them easy to manipulate and kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 First of all this poll was requested by one of you and these are the options they wanted to know. I’m not trying to lead anyone anywhere. Either you like the zombies better now or you liked them better before. There is nothing more to it than that. I could just as easily (wrongly) speculate that some who don’t want to vote for either just don’t want to give ANY positive spin to A17 even though they like it more. ...no leading? "Option 1: Keep the old crappy broken a16 system that supports pedophilia and the clubbing of baby seals. Option 2: Vote for a17 and show your intelligence, thus ending world hunger." ...kinda leading, Roland. Sure, what you said isn't quite as extreme, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfyBlah Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 First of all this poll was requested by one of you and these are the options they wanted to know. I’m not trying to lead anyone anywhere. Either you like the zombies better now or you liked them better before. There is nothing more to it than that. I could just as easily (wrongly) speculate that some who don’t want to vote for either just don’t want to give ANY positive spin to A17 even though they like it more. Thats pretty insulting to be honest, like usual people are only intrested in reading feedback if it follows a paragraph or two of brown nosing and proclaiming that TFP are the best develoers eva! I DO have a list of positive things to say about a17, its pretty short. - im glad zombies dig again, once thier damage gets balanced so they dont dig stupidly fast this will be great - im glad zombies dont do the ballerina thing anymore and can attack structural supports if the player is above them - vehicles seem more stable since thier re-write, more variety here is good too i guess but should have probably been left to modders. Thats it, nothing else in this alpha has been a positive for me and a lot of the big changes (dungeon POIs, zombie behaviour, perk system, item mods) have taken massive ammounts of the enjoyment this game once offered me. - - - Updated - - - ...no leading? "Option 1: Keep the old crappy broken a16 system that supports pedophilia and the clubbing of baby seals. Option 2: Vote for a17 and show your intelligence, thus ending world hunger." ...kinda leading, Roland. Sure, what you said isn't quite as extreme, but... Lmfao, this post expresses what i thourght the second i read this thread, thankyou for saying it more clearly than i ever could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 ...no leading? "Option 1: Keep the old crappy broken a16 system that supports pedophilia and the clubbing of baby seals. Option 2: Vote for a17 and show your intelligence, thus ending world hunger." ...kinda leading, Roland. Sure, what you said isn't quite as extreme, but... Ok, sorry Guppy, but on this one, you simply could not be more wrong. The poll options literally are: The zombie behavior of pre-A17 The zombie behavior of post-A17 That couldn't be more neutral if Roland had spray painted Swiss flags all over it! His comments below, are his own personal opinion, which he is every bit as entitled to hold (and express) as anyone else on these boards. I really don't see how you or WolfyBlah can be complaining about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXBadDreamXx Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 unsure if guppy is tryin to be silly or if serious....you mad fool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrakicking Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Zombies should also not know the difference between wood and concrete, nor should they have x-ray vision that allows them to precisely judge the width of a wall. Zombies are not master structural engineers! It's daft! There must be some reasonable compromise between robot super-AI and "gets stuck, spins on the spot". One thing is certain: The easiest and most ancient way to beat horde night is to find a tall building, and climb on top of it. The only way for zombies to have the slightest chance to get you then is to attack the weak spots of the place so it crumbles down. We could argue if zombies have a degree on architecture and engineering or not, but this is purely a decision based on gameplay mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Ok, sorry Guppy, but on this one, you simply could not be more wrong. The poll options literally are: The zombie behavior of pre-A17 The zombie behavior of post-A17 That couldn't be more neutral if Roland had spray painted Swiss flags all over it! His comments below, are his own personal opinion, which he is every bit as entitled to hold (and express) as anyone else on these boards. I really don't see how you or WolfyBlah can be complaining about this. I'm on mobile. Polls don't exist for me until I switch to desktop mode, so all I see is Roland's first post. Which is very leading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Isn't this like a moot point though... I mean, this "new" AI is being built as we speak. Maybe none of what it does now it will do in a week or so. Right? Gun to my head though... I prefer the "real" zombies of A16, they at least knew their place in the food chain. They didn't have an advanced "understanding" of traps, supersonic hearing, a PHD in engineering and construction weak points AND they did NOT communicate telepathically with their colleagues about my whereabouts. The running in circles had to be fixed though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 unsure if guppy is tryin to be silly or if serious....you mad fool Seriously silly? Sup man, been a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfyBlah Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Ok, sorry Guppy, but on this one, you simply could not be more wrong. The poll options literally are: The zombie behavior of pre-A17 The zombie behavior of post-A17 That couldn't be more neutral if Roland had spray painted Swiss flags all over it! His comments below, are his own personal opinion, which he is every bit as entitled to hold (and express) as anyone else on these boards. I really don't see how you or WolfyBlah can be complaining about this. Do you honestly belive there isnt an option (or 6) missing from this poll? Just 1- The Zombie BEHAVIOUR of a16 with the a17 exploit fixes and technical improvements. Its asking which is better: a technically inferior product (old AI) or the new zombie behaviour that comes along with the updated product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam_Neill Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I did vote for post A17 zombie AI - but maybe some more random behaviour should occur, as others have mentioned. A16 zombies were no threat, now they are - and thats good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Do you honestly belive there isnt an option (or 6) missing from this poll? Just 1- The Zombie BEHAVIOUR of a16 with the a17 exploit fixes and technical improvements. Its asking which is better: a technically inferior product (old AI) or the new zombie behaviour that comes along with the updated product. You have GOT to be kidding me. This poll in no way asks you to endorse the rest of A17. It literally asks you to choose whether you prefer zombie behavior now vs zombie behavior previously. That's it. If you choose the zombie behavior now I promise that nobody is going to say "AH HA!!!! Alpha 17 is superior in every single way." The questions don't even hint about updated features that might be included. Simply, zombie behavior. I didn't even think about my first post. I used the same language the forum user who asked for it used. He called the old zombies "dumb" and the new zombies "smart" and seemed to think that dumb zombies were the preferable option so I didn't think zombie advocates out there would be upset by me referring to them as dumb. In fact, I have read multiple posts by different people who refer to the old zombie behavior as "dumb zombies" and the new zombie behavior as "smart zombies" so I really thought it was the vernacular of our forum in referring and not some kind of value statement on how someone might vote... I have no trouble changing it to be more generic before any others come here and get sucked into the world of pedophilia and seal pup violence. I think the actual poll questions are very fair and it is only two options because that is what I was asked to do. Why would we even need a poll to know that everyone is going to choose the option: Or..... would you instead like the best parts of both behaviors for the ultimate zombie AI? EDIT: Changed my OP to be as generic as possible since some here believe that all you readers are even dumber than A16 zombies and that you would be forced to vote according to my irresistible puppet mastery.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeWildlife Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I think like most people I would prefer something between the two, but since the poll question only presented it as a simple dichotomy, I have to say I went with the A16 behaviour. If the poll hangs around 50/50 then the feedback they will recieve, is that people seem to want something that is between the two. A Yes or No question is the simplest way to ask, mixed results, mean people want a mix. Myself, id rather totallyy go back to A16, but i cannot speak for everybody. On a side note. I was the one who asked the question. WHIP ME, I CAN TAKE IT, but i warn you, i like it. Anyways, to explain. I call A16 zombies dumb not because theyre bad (i prefer A16 and im the one asking the question!) but because they mostly draw a straight line to you and destroy what is on the way, like a typical movie zombie. They show minimal intelligence so therefor, theyre DUMB. Dumb zombies keep in mind, allow the potential for higher counts and less cpu usage. I call A17 zombies smart because...do i really need to explain? They have superman vision wallhacks, dolphin hearing, mega-jump, superstrength (concrete is paper) and SatNav's tell them the shortest and safest route. ZOMBIES WITH SATNAV FOR CHRIST SAKE. If anything becoming a Zombie in A17 is like being given superpowers...so err....why is being nommed by them a bad thing? If you become them...then, we get superpowers..doesnt seem so bad. I ask A17...why is becoming a Z a BAD thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Before A17 we zombies that behaved a certain way. After A17 we have zombies that behave a different way. Which do you prefer and why? Why's one gotta be certain, and the other different?!? Bias! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 I think like most people I would prefer something between the two, but since the poll question only presented it as a simple dichotomy, I have to say I went with the A16 behaviour. Well to be honest a vote for a mixture of both would have to be a vote for the post A17 zombie AI. Good AI knows everything and all optimal paths and choices but then is limited in choosing the best path through obfuscation via random actions, simulated mistakes, and purposeful choosing of suboptimal paths at times. In A16 the zombies don't know anything. They are given a list of tasks to do in priority and that's it. faatal gave them the entire picture for A17 but has not yet had time to obfuscate their knowledge. He has done some things though. For example they forget about you after 30 seconds of not seeing you once they've reached your last known location. This makes them extremely easy to dodge at night because it is open but dark so you have many directions to sprint off to and crouch quietly and they can't see you. I have seen them run to my last known location and then go back to wandering mode many many times. But faatal has more things planned to make it so they don't act like geniuses all the time. But without the full knowledge that is gimped down through different means there is no way to be able to make the zombies of A16 with their simple list of prioritized tasks to behave in a way that is threatening at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I prefer A17's zombies, I have fun making them walk paths I design (which more often than not are death tunnels), though from a gameplay perspective there should be a random chance for "dumb zombies", you know the ones from a16 and below that will bee line it to you thru no matter how many blocks. A combo of both would be best in my eyes. I mainly like the new AI when looting a Poi, as they path to you without destroying much around them, compared to A16 and below where they'd most likely rip apart loot containers trying to get to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Why's one gotta be certain, and the other different?!? Bias! Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Fixed. Lol... hehe. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergoros Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Voted for pre a17, but only cause zeds are To smart. They shouldnt look for vulnerabilities and should attack whatever they can attack. Honestly, I would prefer new zeds ai, if you just take away their engineering degree and their gps capability. Especially their ability to zero in exactly your position underground. Even if they heard some sounds, they should just dig down a little, and, as long as they dont hear anymore sounds, they should lose your location and go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evorith Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I think you should have a 3rd choice a mix of both! I have been thinking about this for a while, the precedent are the vultures! they don't act like normal zombies but must have some of their instinctual behaviour in play which is what I would like to see. instead of every zombie acting the same give them instinctual behaviour for each type of zombie. Zombie dogs dig give them an AI that is different to the norm, Football zombies form a pack and do more damage like current A17 do when they are together, Soilder zombies are more observant and tactile so they go for the weakest block, hear better like current A17 zombies, the list can go on and make them all different. Also give a lot of zombies that are just dumb they don't follow the congo line and try to attack u in all different directions. Try and Cheese that with ramps. Irradiated Vulture Zombies that spit acid etc. Hare zombies that can really jump and avoid your spikes at its to small, walks over mines etc. Pole dancing zombies that do the circle spin like back in A16,4 hahah. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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