Smart vs Dumb Zombies?

[Drunkwolf]

Old Zombies were so stupid i couldnt in my right mind suggest this game to anybody knowing the first time they shoot a zombie at night time and the zombie runs away from them to go do circles around a cactus, they would laugh and quit/refund.

 

people are so used to being able to cheese the zombies and sit in their safe base from day 3.

 

personally i like killing zombies in a zombie game, if i wanted to be safe from dumb AI all the time i would just turn the zombies off.

[Damocles]

The first pass will probably be an alternating 180 spawn for each wave, but maybe with some randomness. Maybe a +120 angle each wave.

 

I also want to experiment with cost variations of distance vs block health.

 

How about increasing the costs of voxels, where other zombies have died before?

This way they would try to avoid traps and other dangerous areas, without having to know that beforehand.

The horde would change their pathing dynamically during the horde-night.

 

It could also record voxels, where zombies fell down (below the calculated path), increasing the cost to pass them, thus making the following zombies avoid cheesy trapdoors.

[AtomicUs5000]

How about increasing the costs of voxels, where other zombies have died before?

This way they would try to avoid traps and other dangerous areas, without having to know that beforehand.

The horde would change their pathing dynamically during the horde-night.

 

It could also record voxels, where zombies fell down (below the calculated path), increasing the cost to pass them, thus making the following zombies avoid cheesy trapdoors.

 

I had the same idea before. We were discussing the possibility of that and someone mentioned that zombies should not automatically know telepathically that other zombies died/fell in some spot... of which I agree to some extent. This should work fine as long as it applies only to neighboring zombies, not zombies that haven't spawned in yet. In other words these calculations could end up being too expensive in the long run because they will have to be applied dynamically and also reset conditionally.

[Damocles]

I had the same idea before. We were discussing the possibility of that and someone mentioned that zombies should not automatically know telepathically that other zombies died/fell in some spot... of which I agree to some extent. This should work fine as long as it applies only to neighboring zombies, not zombies that haven't spawned in yet. In other words these calculations could end up being too expensive in the long run because they will have to be applied dynamically and also reset conditionally.

 

The performance-cost or used memory should not be that high. Its basically a temporary (list or whatever) of voxels that add costs to voxels in the prepared pathfinding space. (the section of the world prepared to run the path-search on).

Since that section has to be prepared anyhow, adding some extra costs will not be really noticeable overall.

 

Its temporary, that list can then be deleted after the horde night, or get removed with a timeout.

 

Its the easiest way for the AI to avoid running repetitively into the same trap. The battle gets more interesting overall.

[DerValiser]

Yep. You can make up whatever logic you want. Zombies are fantasy, not something you can compare to real life. I prefer to think of them as seeing your heat, so weaker materials are more easily seen through, hence more desirable to smash. The same reason zombies in movies come to doors or windows and try to get in, because they can see inside or remember those are weak/entry spots.

 

Making the zombies all dumb, does not make the game better to me. Making variety with some dumb and some smarter is more interesting and you don't build variety on top of buggy systems. You make solid systems and then build the variety on top, which is where we are headed.

 

True word. I wish you good luck for this difficult behaviour not to split the community.

I still appreciate your excellent work in the Pre-Stream version, which feels quite different since 231 (and my community does think this as well, it's very different, maybe due to a sideeffect?)

[webskorpion]

... I would like to see zombies and bandits attack the player together on Horde Night (for example, from Gamestage 200) in the future. ...

 

Addition to my contribution before:

 

Take another look at season 8 episode 7 of "The Walking Dead" (the title is "Time For After"). The scenario that takes place there, you should create as a developer of the game at Horde Night.

 

People are trapped by zombies at "The Walking Dead" at headquarters. They can not fight the zombies effectively because their headquarters is threatened by ranged fighters (Sniper). Also, a truck is driven into the base to break the defense or the walls.

 

In their game the ranged fighters should be the bandits at Horde Night. If "Gamestage" increases, the bandits should use stronger weapons, they should become more bandits, and they should attack from different directions simultaneously. With "Gamestage" 200, shooters with crossbow can come first and with "Gamestage" 300 bandits with assault rifle and rockets. In the TV series, a truck is used to break through the wall. In their game, the bandits can use rockets for this purpose. These missiles should have less area damage but more damage for a breakthrough.

 

Ranged fighters will make the base building more complex, the fight more dynamic, and simple solutions will not work. The ranged bandits should fire and then change position a bit and then shoot again. So they are not that easy to hit.

 

The pure destruction mode of the zombies is the wrong way, because players then build a cube with side length 10 instead of a cube with side length 6. It is better if zombies (in several groups) try to hit stairs to get to the player. Then it does not matter how big the cube is.

 

A setting option, after how many days the Horde comes, is very important (7, 14, 21, 28, not at all). Then you can increase the level of difficulty of the Horde and who does not like the Horde, can make them appear less often.

 

(Unfortunately, I can only speak very little English. I have used translation program German - English.)

[Windsailor]

„A well balanaced mixture between A16 and A17” is missing as an option.

 

I like that they are smarter but I don’t like that they GPS to you. Some “dumbness” is needed IMHO.

[MaxTunnerX]

Yeah it's really strange to decide which kind of zombies is actually smarter. Now they are super smart in terms of finding a path to you, but that makes them even dumber than before as you can literally choose where you want them to go by just being there, which makes them pose no threat at all. Although it boosts the sandbox element of the game as zombies are basically just moving blocks now.

[Ghostlight]

The 3 main things that should be fixed (imo ofc) are:

 

1) Zombies should NOT avoid traps. Ever. This is fundamentally game-breaking.

 

2) Zombies should not all home in on the weakest block between them and the player.

 

3) The promised random destruction frenzy of zombies when they cannot reach the player should be added / fixed / whatever it is that is currently making it NOT happen.

[lug]

The 3 main things that should be fixed (imo ofc) are:

 

1) Zombies should NOT avoid traps. Ever. This is fundamentally game-breaking.

 

2) Zombies should not all home in on the weakest block between them and the player.

 

3) The promised random destruction frenzy of zombies when they cannot reach the player should be added / fixed / whatever it is that is currently making it NOT happen.

 

faatal has said the zombies do not avoid traps, but that the path they choose counts the traps as they would other block types, so if a clear path is available they will take it. some folks don't like the idea of controlling the path, but if we don't, in this version, we have to accept that the ai will follow its marching orders.

 

your 2 and 3 are the same issue and have also been acknowledged. don't recall if they have indicated a fix yet for next release

[AtomicUs5000]

The performance-cost or used memory should not be that high. Its basically a temporary (list or whatever) of voxels that add costs to voxels in the prepared pathfinding space. (the section of the world prepared to run the path-search on).

Since that section has to be prepared anyhow, adding some extra costs will not be really noticeable overall.

 

Its temporary, that list can then be deleted after the horde night, or get removed with a timeout.

 

Its the easiest way for the AI to avoid running repetitively into the same trap. The battle gets more interesting overall.

 

Right, it shouldn't... but I suppose it all depends on how accurate it needs to be. For instance, the last zombie of a wave falls off a ramp and triggers a timeout... but that timeout has not finished before the beginning of the next wave. How did that zombie know not to go there if it didn't see anything? Some people make a base that is completely surrounded by a ramp so that no matter which way a zombie goes, it falls off a ramp. That would be a lot of useless timeouts and what are zombies supposed to do now? A few might fall and then start attacking a wall instead for a little bit, but then those timeouts will trigger and they will go back up the ramp, leaving you with basically the same scenario.

[Damocles]

Right, it shouldn't... but I suppose it all depends on how accurate it needs to be. For instance, the last zombie of a wave falls off a ramp and triggers a timeout... but that timeout has not finished before the beginning of the next wave. How did that zombie know not to go there if it didn't see anything? Some people make a base that is completely surrounded by a ramp so that no matter which way a zombie goes, it falls off a ramp. That would be a lot of useless timeouts and what are zombies supposed to do now? A few might fall and then start attacking a wall instead for a little bit, but then those timeouts will trigger and they will go back up the ramp, leaving you with basically the same scenario.

 

I would let the next wave still know about the trap/unfavorable positions.

After all, the waves are partly just a way to keep the performance up, limiting the number of zombies at one time, while still allowing a large total number to attack. They all come from the same horde.

 

Its more important to give variety to the battle overall, than some small logic gap in who can see what. (maybe they smell pheromones or some other explanation)

[PoppaTot]

Voted Pre17. Would rather zeds be dumb, point A to point B brainless creatures. I like the current AI, with some tweaks, for the bandits though. I having been thinking for quite some time that these zombies are a test run for bandit AI.

[Damocles]

The 3 main things that should be fixed (imo ofc) are:

 

1) Zombies should NOT avoid traps. Ever. This is fundamentally game-breaking.

 

2) Zombies should not all home in on the weakest block between them and the player.

 

3) The promised random destruction frenzy of zombies when they cannot reach the player should be added / fixed / whatever it is that is currently making it NOT happen.

 

Gamebreaking is a situation that forces players to use cheap cheeze tactics to win the game.

An easy to observe exploit ruins the fun way more than some "does not act like a textbook zombies" behavior.

 

A vanilla games objective is not to ask players to "constrain themself" (implied by the argument 'just dont do it then'), but let players use any means possible and still have fun. Removing exploits is a core task to balance that. Not having a challange is not fun.

[AtomicUs5000]

I would let the next wave still know about the trap/unfavorable positions.

After all, the waves are partly just a way to keep the performance up, limiting the number of zombies at one time, while still allowing a large total number to attack. They all come from the same horde.

 

Its more important to give variety to the battle overall, than some small logic gap in who can see what. (maybe they smell pheromones or some other explanation)

 

I agree. These were just some of the things that came up in that discussion I was referring to. Not many liked my thoughts on it, so I was wondering how you stood on the concept.

[faatal]

faatal has said the zombies do not avoid traps, but that the path they choose counts the traps as they would other block types, so if a clear path is available they will take it. some folks don't like the idea of controlling the path, but if we don't, in this version, we have to accept that the ai will follow its marching orders.

 

your 2 and 3 are the same issue and have also been acknowledged. don't recall if they have indicated a fix yet for next release

 

I spent all my programming time today implementing some per entity type path cost variation logic that I've been thinking about since last week. Testers have not seen it yet, but initial testing looks promising.

[LuckyStar]

I spent all my programming time today implementing some per entity type path cost variation logic that I've been thinking about since last week. Testers have not seen it yet, but initial testing looks promising.

 

I can't wait to see how this AI turns out.

 

It's got so much potential.

 

I guess we all just need a little patience.

[Damocles]

I agree. These were just some of the things that came up in that discussion I was referring to. Not many liked my thoughts on it, so I was wondering how you stood on the concept.

 

My position: have as many options as possible in the toolbelt, where zombies can be tuned from very aggressive and smart to very random and rather dumb.

If the systems are there, the game can be adjusted to the most fun state over time. (something that cant be planned but needs to evolve over time)

 

Just having one smart zombie out of 10 dumb ones that does something unexpected will create enough tension for the payer to always feel pressure. The player will never know if he is in a safe position.

[open6l]

I spent all my programming time today implementing some per entity type path cost variation logic that I've been thinking about since last week. Testers have not seen it yet, but initial testing looks promising.

 

The real test will be how many days if not hours it takes the community to figure out the pathing.

[Pest666]

Yep. You can make up whatever logic you want. Zombies are fantasy, not something you can compare to real life. I prefer to think of them as seeing your heat, so weaker materials are more easily seen through, hence more desirable to smash. The same reason zombies in movies come to doors or windows and try to get in, because they can see inside or remember those are weak/entry spots.

 

Making the zombies all dumb, does not make the game better to me. Making variety with some dumb and some smarter is more interesting and you don't build variety on top of buggy systems. You make solid systems and then build the variety on top, which is where we are headed.

 

 

I've spent a lot of time watching players cheese the current AI on twitch and YouTube lately. Grumbul's jump loop horde base in particular made me think of a suggestion for a potentially very fun mechanic.

 

Since you're looking at AI variance anyway, I think it would be awesome if head trauma would potentially cause a zombie to go berserk and act in a random way. They might suddenly ignore the player and start attacking other zombies, attacking the nearest block, remain 'smart' but begin treating a light source as if it was a player, or even just running in circles. It might be a great source of fun 'oh ♥♥♥♥' moments and would definitely derail an AI loop horde base.

 

Actually, now that I've written it down, it occurs to me that the current AI with no changes could probably do all that random unpredictable behavior if you could change the target the zombie was after to another zombie or a particular block when they take an arrow to the brain stem and wig out.

[Anarath]

IMO we don't need smart Zombies, but smart Bandits.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Hang on - the poll options have been changed.

 

When I voted, it was a choice between A16 AI and A17 AI. Now it's a choice between "pre-A17 AI" (which includes A16 AI, but also the AI from all previous versions) and "post-A17 AI" (which is some hypothetical future thing that no-one has seen yet).

 

Our votes aren't showing what we actually voted for! I call election fraud!

[SnakeWildlife]

Dumb zombies with high spawn rate was the reason we made traps, thinning out the horde of which we cannot handle without traps, and it allowed us to build freely, building being a massive reason for high ratings on this game.

 

Smart zombies make most of your traps obsolete. This makes your material grinding, and leveling grinding efforts pointless, and leaves us with a huge sense of disatisfaction in the game.

 

Lets face it, people now only exploit the AI and spam Barbed Wire in a thin corridor or use the ramp AI loops. Overall A17 zombies make the original idea of 7D2D to many of its playerbase, broken and gone. We are unwilling to play anymore simply because you swapped Zombies with Supervillains, the core instrument to the success of your game, was changed, completely making this a new game and something us original 7D2d-fans and zombie-fans just arent willing to follow you on with.

[MaxTunnerX]

Hang on - the poll options have been changed.

 

When I voted, it was a choice between A16 AI and A17 AI. Now it's a choice between "pre-A17 AI" (which includes A16 AI, but also the AI from all previous versions) and "post-A17 AI" (which is some hypothetical future thing that no-one has seen yet).

 

Our votes aren't showing what we actually voted for! I call election fraud!

 

It doesn't matter, votes are 50:50 anyway, aka "useless".

[Ghostlight]

Dumb zombies with high spawn rate was the reason we made traps, thinning out the horde of which we cannot handle without traps, and it allowed us to build freely, building being a massive reason for high ratings on this game.

 

Smart zombies make most of your traps obsolete. This makes your material grinding, and leveling grinding efforts pointless, and leaves us with a huge sense of disatisfaction in the game.

 

Lets face it, people now only exploit the AI and spam Barbed Wire in a thin corridor or use the ramp AI loops. Overall A17 zombies make the original idea of 7D2D to many of its playerbase, broken and gone. We are unwilling to play anymore simply because you swapped Zombies with Supervillains, the core instrument to the success of your game, was changed, completely making this a new game and something us original 7D2d-fans and zombie-fans just arent willing to follow you on with.

 

Agreed. One of the MANY instances where they replaced fun with not-fun for reasons that are beyond me.