Smart vs Dumb Zombies?

[Ghostlight]

Not a great poll because I LOVE the zombie behaviour outside of horde night and HATE it on horde night. I voted for A16 though if that's the choice.

 

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So many games have dumb enemies. Easy to cheeze opponents. The game gets boring if there are no surprises.

 

So I rather have them have unrealistically good pathfinding, than a sub-par one, that can be tricked too easily.

 

It is FAR easier to cheese them in A17 than ever before.

 

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but retard zed took some spikes and a box made of stone to withstand. Thats it. make a 5x5 box, stand onto of it and put a few layers of spikes around the box. Then move around during horde night. At least with the smarter ones you have to put some thought into how you'll withstand it.

 

Will utterly fail once gs gets higher.

[WolfyBlah]

Yea, especially since the exploit fixes just created new, and I would argue worse, exploits. I wish the fun pimps would stop trying to squash exploits, an impossible task, and just focus on putting in more fun mechanics.

 

I disagree here, fixing expliots and bugs is great, the more the better.

 

Whats not great is lumping this is with the new behaviour. (Pathing around spikes)

 

Id rather see an indepth discussion about specfic behaviours within the AI than a 'which is better, old or updated'

 

I dont belive zombies should activly avoid traps or all attack the same block at the same time. Id like to be able to represent this opinon without saying 'bring back spinning in place zombies' but that option is not allowed apparently.

[Saera]

While I voted for the current AI, I miss the old AI as well.

 

I wish it were somewhat like A16, where perhaps the zombies are not all smart, and will randomly be super intelligent in their pathing.

 

Right now, its like it is just a line, zoomed straight on me and it can be predictable.

 

It would be nice for a randomness to it. Some to choose blocks randomly to get to me, especially on horde night. They should just break whatever is in front of them trying to get to me, not worried about block value.

 

Maybe once and a while roll a new path to try so they don't get stuck and keep me on my toes.

[Kage848]

I disagree here, fixing expliots and bugs is great, the more the better.

 

Whats not great is lumping this is with the new behaviour. (Pathing around spikes)

 

Id rather see an indepth discussion about specfic behaviours within the AI than a 'which is better, old or updated'

 

I dont belive zombies should activly avoid traps or all attack the same block at the same time. Id like to be able to represent this opinon without saying 'bring back spinning in place zombies' but that option is not allowed apparently.

 

I'm all about fixing bugs. And some exploits, like the frames giving more burn time than the wood used to make them.

 

But trying to defeat players with ai is not only a losing battle I think it's a poor use of the devs time. Players will always figure out a way to cheese.

 

I agree with you, its dumb to have zombies avoid traps. These aren't even zombies anymore. Zombies are supposed to be a force of nature, not thinking beings. Save that stuff for the bandits.

[WolfyBlah]

I'm all about fixing bugs. And some exploits, like the frames giving more burn time than the wood used to make them.

 

But trying to defeat players with ai is not only a losing battle I think it's a poor use of the devs time. Players will always figure out a way to cheese.

 

I agree with you, its dumb to have zombies avoid traps. These aren't even zombies anymore. Zombies are supposed to be a force of nature, not thinking beings. Save that stuff for the bandits.

 

Everyone is so hyped for bandits and im just here hoping and praying TFP rember to give us an option to disable them. No interest in fighting other players (PVP), even less intrest in having that type of gameplay being shoehorned and forced.

[Xtrakicking]

Everyone is so hyped for bandits and im just here hoping and praying TFP rember to give us an option to disable them. No interest in fighting other players (PVP), even less intrest in having that type of gameplay being shoehorned and forced.

 

You'll always be able to disable any enemy in the XML files.

 

...and...return their faces, looking at the player from the bottom up.

 

You have no idea how much I miss this.

[wildaxeman1]

i defenatly like smart z. if more behaviour/pathing diversity can be added would be perfect

[Kilroy83]

Problem here is the technical limitations tied to number of entities alive, I would love dumb zombies with project zomboid behavior, getting all excited when they spot you and forming huge dangerous herds.

Something I think would work (without limitations):

- during normal days make cities dangerous again like a hornet nest, harder for them to detect you but lethal if they detect you, form a horde and corner you

- during horde day easier to kill zombies with little to no xp but endless and in huge numbers

[unclevlad]

I voted for smarter zombies only because I hate to think of what might have to come out of the game to reliably create the number of dumb zombies to make the BH worthwhile.

 

That being said, in addition to some general tweaking, I wonder if zombie IA could be tiered. Simple zombies should be dumber than others.

[Viktoriusiii]

I have no doubt most people would like a mix of both just looking at the mixed results of the poll but nobody has actually played with zombies that are mix of both.

 

It's simple. You've played with pre-A17 zombies and you've played with A17 zombies. Now, which did you like best out of the reality and history of what you actually did and not out of the speculation of what might be?

 

Clearly 100% old one for me then, no contest. I didn't vote because the new had way more possibilities and Ifeel its not completely fair to compare a long time system to one in its infancy. NowI didvote tho... and the poll seems a bit more obvious now.

[Reth]

I prefer "dumb" zombies.

 

A16 AI had a few problems, namely zombies were unable to hit certain blocks and they didn't know what to do if they couldn't path to you. Fixing those two issues would have been sufficient. Fix for the former is obvious, fix for the latter is simple enough - if there is no short path to the player, start destroying random player-made blocks in the general vicinity.

 

In A17 zombies are so predictable, I have to struggle with myself not to exploit the AI too much while building my defenses.

[Red Eagle LXIX]

I voted Pre-A17 for Zombie AI.

 

I'll even break it down as I have done before. Virtually all zombie lore has dumb, easily tricked zombies.

In A16 this was reasonably easy, and the zombies behaved relatively like zombies would. They could be trapped and stuck in a pit, they could be guided to traps.

 

In A17 the "improved AI" is still easy, but now it looks like fraking arcade game of lemmings. If that same exact AI had been applied to Bandits, then the Lemming Loop would be an exploit.

 

Hear me out. The Lemming Loop is a 100% valid tactic against brain damaged zombies. As such the new AI being beaten by a Lemming Loop is reasonable. However, if this smart pathing were removed from Zombies and animals and instead put to the Bandits then a Lemming Loop is an exploit.

 

Why is the Lemming Loop a valid tactic against Zombies but not Bandits?

• Zombies are dumb, brain damaged, mindless eating machines. They don't think. They don't react different. They follow, they attack, they eat. Their behavior is always very predictable. There is enough lore and background on zombies that shows them being trapped easily due to their lack of intelligence. Even being put into loops to run a mill through baiting. As such, loops, easily tricking zombies, etc should work, and be relatively easy (as it was on both A16 and A17). Thus the Lemming Loop is a valid Zombie defense tactic.
  
• Bandits are supposed to represent thinking beings, humans with a capacity similar to our own. Thus putting them in a Lemming Loop would have been an exploit of a hole in that ability to represent humans. Thus the Lemming Loop is not a valid Bandit defense tactic.

[Bhaaltazar]

I voted for A16 for one reason - horde nights were better, I had to build and reinforce my base, since they just spread out and started attacking all around. Now on horde night I just place down some barbed wires to slow them down and shoot them with my bow. Good experience yes, but they are funny doing same thing.

 

As for POI's I like A17 much better than A16, because in dungeons that AI for sniffing you out, reacting to sounds is way better and very immersive. I even started throwing rocks for distraction and luring them out, though sometimes they just all wake up for no reason and come running straight at my location - even when sneaking and not making any sound.

 

So Thumbs up to A17 for POI's behavior and Thumbs up to A16 for horde night behavior. I think A 17 just needs some tweaks to the new behavior and it will be better also on the horde nights.

[Kalarro]

I voted for smarter zombies only because I hate to think of what might have to come out of the game to reliably create the number of dumb zombies to make the BH worthwhile.

 

What you arent taking into consideration is that defending against a17 zombies is much easier than against a16 zombies. Sure, they look smarter bc they go for the weak spot instead of spreading their attacks. This makes it "harder" if you want to make a fortress. But if on the other side you just want to survive, instead of making a cool base, you can do it much easier than before. You needed 360؛ defenses back then, now you just make a ramp or similar exploiting path, and it's done.

 

Therefor, the topic of this thread is confusing, you cant call a17 zombies smarter. The enemies got smarter, but the AI got more dumb, when we needed the oposite, dumb looking enemies, with smart background AI to prevent exploiting it.

 

Topic should be: smart enemies with bad AI vs dumb enemies with good AI

 

where

- A17 is smart enemies with bad AI

- a16 is dumb enemies with bad AI

- objective should be dumb enemies with good AI, meanign attacking from all sides without pathing, but without getting stuck or beeing easily exploitable

[hotpoon]

I voted Pre-A17 for Zombie AI.

Slightly off-topic, but...

Are you the angel who blessed us with Red's Hud mod?

If so, will you be doing one for the new Alpha?

[Xtrakicking]

I voted Pre-A17 for Zombie AI.

 

I'll even break it down as I have done before. Virtually all zombie lore has dumb, easily tricked zombies.

 

The thing is that, when it comes to zombies, usually they're all dumb and extremely weak, but come in overwhealming numbers. In 7dtd, however, there are only so many zombies that can attack at once without frying your rig.

 

I believe that's the reason why they're both bullet sponges and so smart.

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Slightly off-topic, but...

Are you the angel who blessed us with Red's Hud mod?

If so, will you be doing one for the new Alpha?

Yes, and been done since experimental: here.

[hotpoon]

Awesome!

[Evorith]

yes I know they want a black and white answer but they are asking the wrong question! it should be what type of zombie AI do you want! my answer was both. Just because we have never had it doesn't mean its not worth getting or trying why we are in Alpha mode.

[badger2013]

I voted for current. As a starting place it is vastly superior and I have confidence that faatal can really make it shine. All it really needs is some random behaviors added in and a bit more obfuscation that the zombies always know the ideal pathway to your location.

 

I agree, I'm hopeful that with some tweaking the current version can move from "good, but with problems" to excellent.

[SnakeWildlife]

yes I know they want a black and white answer but they are asking the wrong question! it should be what type of zombie AI do you want! my answer was both. Just because we have never had it doesn't mean its not worth getting or trying why we are in Alpha mode.

 

A poll with lots of options, or no poll at all, leads to diluted and unfocused results that nobody can draw any conclusions from. Clean statistics can at least give the developers an idea of where people are leaning.

 

Everyone in the world wants things a little differently and will never be happy with another persons total ideology, this poll however allows a vague idea so the developers can attempt to make the Majority of us happy.

 

The results currently show (51 to A16 - 45 to A17) that people, whilst enjoying some aspects of the new AI, still enjoy slightly more aspects of the old AI.

 

The developers will not accept (like some people seem to be suggesting) that a small lead is a "oh lets go completely back to A16". THATS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, instead, they can take this poll as feedback, and make alterations which will try to please everybody.

 

Too many of you are kicking a bee's nest...without realizing that there are no bees in it. You want TFP to listen to your opinion and this is your golden opportunity to have it.

[Arkheias]

On a slightly unrelated note from all this, I want zombies to trip, stumble, and fall over stuff.

 

If a zombie runs off a cliff, I want it to faceplant.

[Lussian]

I'll abstain from voting, as I'd like probably a mix of the two.

The dumb ai from before "I" tended to stop with brute force, aka walls and the likes.

The new "smart" ai, is easy to predict. Thus stopped with I would say smarts.. but more like silly ways to build things.

 

I think it would be more interesting to have both, some brutes and some smarter "hunting" zoms.

[quyxkh]

Good AI knows everything and all optimal paths and choices but then is limited in choosing the best path through obfuscation

 

What? _No_. Good NPC AI has the information its agent would have and does what its agent would do with it. The metric is, how fun (it's a game) is it to go up against the agent.

 

So have zombies switch paths when they're blocked, with varying amounts of foresight, varying amounts of tenacity, and have zombies that encounter success overcoming frustration scream, attracting any frustrated zombies nearby. When choosing a new path, some zombies go straight for the target, some will detour to destroy weak things, some try to get above you, some try to get below, most try to go right or left or above or below or behind any zombie they can see that already has a plan, some will detour to destroy anything warm or bright, none of them like cold stone, some will climb, some can't, some rare ones will plan ahead through multiple visible obstacles, they probe for weak spots and are frighteningly good at finding them. They all hunger for your blood.

 

You've got nice variety in how the zeds behave in melee, that's a really fun minigame with horror-movie-level plausibility, as in, you're here to be scared, not convinced the real world actually works that way, and even the little girls will kill you if you let your guard down for even a moment. They're predictable enough to suck you in after you think you can predict them. Repeatedly. Yay.

 

So go all fugue on that theme with the horde-attack AI. Reward players identifying zombie personality types, the types distributed like loot, random but you're likelier to get layered planning and exploration and and screaming-at-foreseen-weakness from screamers and up.

[cricket504]

I'm all about fixing bugs. And some exploits, like the frames giving more burn time than the wood used to make them.

 

But trying to defeat players with ai is not only a losing battle I think it's a poor use of the devs time. Players will always figure out a way to cheese.

 

I agree with you, its dumb to have zombies avoid traps. These aren't even zombies anymore. Zombies are supposed to be a force of nature, not thinking beings. Save that stuff for the bandits.

 

 

I'm with Kage here. Zombies are dead bodies that are rotting. Avoiding traps is silly. But then I'll add on that the smart pathing needs some tweaking. Pathing for a weak block and zig zagging to avoid shots seams a bit beyond what a dead brain might do.