New perk system

[kidmo31]

Ok to start off I have more than got my moneys worth from this game. 1000+ hours and its my most played game besides World of Warcrack. I am all for watching this game grow. My problem is immersion and the perk system seems to shatter that. I dont want to waste time searching through 200 perks for incremental stat buffs. Its adding another layer of UI crap and clutter. Rather than have a UI system why not make it like GTA San Andreas. As you do various activities you get better at those activities. This game used to do that in small forms now it seems A17 is less about doing the activity its about Min maxing xp to gain the abilities at the push of a button rather than organically . TFP seems to have forgot the basics of game design. Keep it simple. The more layers of unneeded crap that is added the worse this game is looking for the future. I am all for new content like POI, Zombies , Biomes. But fundamental redesigns to add complication for the sake of adding it seems like a waste when there is little reward to pressing a attribute to get stronger.

[Roland]

Ok to start off I have more than got my moneys worth from this game. 1000+ hours and its my most played game besides World of Warcrack. I am all for watching this game grow. My problem is immersion and the perk system seems to shatter that. I dont want to waste time searching through 200 perks for incremental stat buffs. Its adding another layer of UI crap and clutter. Rather than have a UI system why not make it like GTA San Andreas. As you do various activities you get better at those activities. This game used to do that in small forms now it seems A17 is less about doing the activity its about Min maxing xp to gain the abilities at the push of a button rather than organically . TFP seems to have forgot the basics of game design. Keep it simple. The more layers of unneeded crap that is added the worse this game is looking for the future. I am all for new content like POI, Zombies , Biomes. But fundamental redesigns to add complication for the sake of adding it seems like a waste when there is little reward to pressing a attribute to get stronger.

 

I too like the organic quality of getting better at something as you do it. However, I wouldn't call that a simpler approach. I think they took the simpler approach because...it was simpler. Gazz tried to balance progression with the other method and it proved impossible. Also, I think that min/maxers will abuse any xp system but they especially gravitate to systems like we had with crafting where people would sit in their bases for days 1-3 crafting hundreds of stone axes so they wouldn't have to start playing with less than top tier gear.

 

The system we have now is not perfect and as someone who did not abuse the old system I do lament it's passing but I can also understand that from a game designer's perspective the old system was a can of worms of exploitation and weird incentives that took people away from just playing the game in the world and progressing over time through all the tiers of gear and pushed them to holing up and doing repetitive crafting BEFORE starting to actually play.

 

You'll have to play it to make your final decision on it, of course, but the system we have now is actually quite simple from a gameplay perspective and much much simpler from a design and balance perspective especially since they unified the system for perks, buffs, and modifications. There are also PLENTY of people in the community who like shopping for perks using points in order to justify the change regardless of whether you or I and a bunch of others would prefer it the other way. I can't begin to guess where the majority lies but TFP doesn't really need the majority to feel good about their change if it works for them.

[Blake_]

Ok to start off I have more than got my moneys worth from this game. 1000+ hours and its my most played game besides World of Warcrack. I am all for watching this game grow. My problem is immersion and the perk system seems to shatter that. I dont want to waste time searching through 200 perks for incremental stat buffs. Its adding another layer of UI crap and clutter. Rather than have a UI system why not make it like GTA San Andreas. As you do various activities you get better at those activities. This game used to do that in small forms now it seems A17 is less about doing the activity its about Min maxing xp to gain the abilities at the push of a button rather than organically . TFP seems to have forgot the basics of game design. Keep it simple. The more layers of unneeded crap that is added the worse this game is looking for the future. I am all for new content like POI, Zombies , Biomes. But fundamental redesigns to add complication for the sake of adding it seems like a waste when there is little reward to pressing a attribute to get stronger.

 

To max out medicine: Craft thousands of simple bandages and eat them all.

To max out clothing/armor: It is enough with around 40 painkillers. Push yourself into a cactus with clothes and some armor and get damaged continuously for 3 hp. In about a real time hour you got your 100 skill. And those are just two examples.

 

I like it too... but TFP love to delete any tedious/grinding feature that may damage the fun at some degree and make the overall gameplay repetitive and minmaxer in an easy way. Let's face it, skyrim becomes boring to minmaxers when they reach the top. Grinding skills becomes pointless as there is no real gameplay or stronger dragons to support that unreal boost.

 

This way we have control and limits, and IF we want some MINMAX time then they force us to actually Do something thrilling or useful like collect resources, mine or kill!. No more cactus, no more smithy grinding in Whiterun. Yes to gameplay and thrill and fun.

[Shiana]

I hate to say it, really, but i feel much the same like Roland....It's sad that the old system is gone, but i can understand why they did it.

 

 

Although i had high hopes before the videos, that we would get a perk system. not a "perk" system. (This means: i was hoping it would be a real perk system like in fallout 1 and 2, and not a "perk" like in most asia grinders, where you only get a bit higher chance at this or that for the perk points. Thats more what i would call a skill system. NOT a perk system.

[SxR]

I prefer the old system. Yes it was mundane to an extent to keep crafting the same thing over and over to get better at it, but that's grinding, and some actually play for that. I certainly did, I was my team's crafter.

 

The gates and near impossibility to be self sufficient is upsetting. It's going to encourage 'Tribes' like in ARK: Survival Evolved.. and when that happens, the admins of nearly every server will just ban groups of players for it, which gets put on a service list, and is broadcasted to many other servers.

 

After that, people can barely play online anymore. :f

[Damocles]

Making a levelup system that is based on skill-usage, without offering cheap exploits would be very hard to implement.

The game would need to separate "purposeful" activities from simplistic (repetitive) purposeless use of a skill.

 

Armor skill: would need to know more than just taking damage. But non intentional damage (eg, only from combat)

Sneaking: would have to know if there is a real danger to avoid, that could spot (and reach) the player.

Crafting: not just making an item, but using it, and having a reason to craft it. (and, not having just made similar duplicates without using them)

Movement/Endurance: jump with purpose not bunny hopping on flat terrain. Going somewhere new, not just jumping up a staircase repeatedly.

Weapon use: only count hits to enemies. And then only to those that pose a threat to the player (have a chance to attack).

etc..

 

The recorded skill-activities should probably only get assigned to a skill-increase after some time for the game to determine if the actions had a purpose. (would be also harder for players to decipher the rules how they where assigned).

 

But any system can still be played, once the rules are known to experienced players....

[Reth]

Making a levelup system that is based on skill-usage, without offering cheap exploits would be very hard to implement.

The game would need to separate "purposeful" activities from simplistic (repetitive) purposeless use of a skill.

 

Armor skill: would need to know more than just taking damage. But non intentional damage (eg, only from combat)

Sneaking: would have to know if there is a real danger to avoid, that could spot (and reach) the player.

Crafting: not just making an item, but using it, and having a reason to craft it. (and, not having just made similar duplicates without using them)

Movement/Endurance: jump with purpose not bunny hopping on flat terrain. Going somewhere new, not just jumping up a staircase repeatedly.

Weapon use: only count hits to enemies. And then only to those that pose a threat to the player (have a chance to attack).

etc..

 

The recorded skill-activities should probably only get assigned to a skill-increase after some time for the game to determine if the actions had a purpose. (would be also harder for players to decipher the rules how they where assigned).

 

But any system can still be played, once the rules are known to experienced players....

 

Yes, that was pretty much the reasoning for the skill changes TFP provided. Grind elimination etc. Trouble is, in RL you learn quite a few skills by doing the same stupid task over and over again, especially physical skills. Running a few marathons will make you a better, well, runner. You don't have to run different routes for it. Shooting at targets will eventually make you a better shot. You don't need to change targets to improve basic shooting. If you attempt to eliminate or restrict the grind in the game, you'll simply make it feel unnatural.

 

I had to learn to run wearing a gas mask. The only way to get better at it was to run while wearing a gas mask. Not the skill I hope to use one day though

[Damocles]

Yes, that was pretty much the reasoning for the skill changes TFP provided. Grind elimination etc. Trouble is, in RL you learn quite a few skills by doing the same stupid task over and over again, especially physical skills. Running a few marathons will make you a better, well, runner. You don't have to run different routes for it. Shooting at targets will eventually make you a better shot. You don't need to change targets to improve basic shooting. If you attempt to eliminate or restrict the grind in the game, you'll simply make it feel unnatural.

 

I had to learn to run wearing a gas mask. The only way to get better at it was to run while wearing a gas mask. Not the skill I hope to use one day though

 

If you offer a mechanic in a game that requires grinding to advance (to advance fast), you also push player to do that grinding. And that is not a fun design choice.

 

Most players try to play the optimal route once they understand a game mechanic (at least as much as they know of it). If playing optimally is not fun, there is an issue with the design, not the players restraint.

 

-> the optimal path needs to be fun.

 

If the optimal path means crafting 100 cheap stone axes: then the design failed.

If the optimal path means engaging in combat: its at least offering fun to most players.

 

Out-side the "optimal path":

Creative activities (such as decorating a building) should not be forced by giving gameplay rewards, but also not be punished by taking away otherwise important resources.

[Benjiro]

The misuse that Blake_ reported of the skill progression system, i have never found those because i am not looking for shortcuts like that. Its the same with the spam crafting, if somebody wants to spam 10.000 items, its their choice. Most time i spam craft in the first night to get to a level where things did not break after 2 swings and never look at spam crafting again. I enjoy the basic progression feeling after that.

 

Like the new A17 system can not be misused?

 

We do not know for sure how you get Perk points as its never been explained in detail but based upon A16, it will probably be a mix of killing Zs, crafting, mining, quests give you XP, what in return gives you points, the more XP the slower the points, like any boring mmorpg ... So what will some people do, simply dig dig dig all night and select perks that maximize whatever makes the game easy on them. And ignore the rest. Great feeling of immersion is it not. Dig dig, craft, craft, plop points in weapon skills and out of nowhere you are Rambo.

 

There will be people that break the game on every chance and if they do it in single player, who cares... Sometimes it feels like the devs are sticking their noses in too much how people play. They do not like people spam crafting, well, lets cut the entire progression system out.

 

Balancing progression is not a issue, their are games that also use progression ( and regression on dying ) and they do not have a issue with it. But it becomes a issue when you want to go for a mmorpg like perk system more and more...

 

What scares me the most is seeing weapon recipes locked behind high level perks and even basic features that a A16 character had, are now skills you need to unlock. Headshots being gone = skill. Less carry capacity = skill to get to A16 capacity. Crafting query limit? Skill ...

 

I am being extreme vocal about A17 because the more i see, the more i hate a lot of the changes. You where able to tell in A16 a lot of changes seems to evolve in this direction and for me its the Alpha that i had less fun in and almost not played.

 

That is the issue with hiding developing features and then simply pushing them on the players. And given how Joel is exited about it, it will be "you are going to enjoy it, if you want too or not". They are not going to rewrite the system again.

 

The game is becoming one of those states games. Find the armor of oblivion: +X% stat. Find the Crystal of Zondar: +X% on Y weapon. Most of the Perks are so generic its not even fun. Gain 5%, Gain 10%, Gain 15% ... In A15 the perks used to be more specialized, something that gave a boost, not the core of the gameplay.

 

Do it hate everything, no ... Encumbrance system is nice. But nothing prevented that system being made for A15 perks.

 

I will say it again until i turn blue. I wanted A15 + some of the changes of A16 AND A LOT MORE CONTENT ( like most of the things still missing from the kickstarter ). More complex crafting, more content, dynamic story lines, npcs, bandits, more predators / animals, ... so much missing, so much stripped away.

 

Sorry to say this but A17 feels like 7D2D is turning into some stupid generic game with everything dumbed down ... Great for people new to the game for the first few dozen hours but after that, their is no content. Maybe i am wrong but i stated before that i am sure that A17 is a attempt at drawing in new blood / players into 7D2D for financial reasons.

[Benjiro]

If you offer a mechanic in a game that requires grinding to advance (to advance fast), you also push player to do that grinding. And that is not a fun design choice.

 

Most players try to play the optimal route once they understand a game mechanic (at least as much as they know of it). If playing optimally is not fun, there is an issue with the design, not the players restraint.

 

-> the optimal path needs to be fun.

 

If the optimal path means crafting 100 cheap stone axes: then the design failed.

If the optimal path means engaging in combat: its at least offering fun to most players.

 

How many people craft axes ... Most players here did it always on the first night because the default level was too weak. Your tools and Weapons Everything broke fast. Instead of fixing that, lets simply bad crafting.

 

The solution for spam crafting? Increase the player default tools level to 100. Increase craft times by 10 fold. Voila, i just fixed spam crafting, please send the money transfer to XXXXXXX.

 

Combat has the same issue. You gain perks based upon XP. At first you gain fast XP = fast perks. Then the limiters start to kick in, more zombie killing = less perks. It becomes a grind.

 

You think that people will not find the fasted way to grind Perks? Please ...

[kidmo31]

I too like the organic quality of getting better at something as you do it. However, I wouldn't call that a simpler approach. I think they took the simpler approach because...it was simpler. Gazz tried to balance progression with the other method and it proved impossible. Also, I think that min/maxers will abuse any xp system but they especially gravitate to systems like we had with crafting where people would sit in their bases for days 1-3 crafting hundreds of stone axes so they wouldn't have to start playing with less than top tier gear.

 

The system we have now is not perfect and as someone who did not abuse the old system I do lament it's passing but I can also understand that from a game designer's perspective the old system was a can of worms of exploitation and weird incentives that took people away from just playing the game in the world and progressing over time through all the tiers of gear and pushed them to holing up and doing repetitive crafting BEFORE starting to actually play.

 

You'll have to play it to make your final decision on it, of course, but the system we have now is actually quite simple from a gameplay perspective and much much simpler from a design and balance perspective especially since they unified the system for perks, buffs, and modifications. There are also PLENTY of people in the community who like shopping for perks using points in order to justify the change regardless of whether you or I and a bunch of others would prefer it the other way. I can't begin to guess where the majority lies but TFP doesn't really need the majority to feel good about their change if it works for them.

 

Ok to a extent I can understand any system can be exploited unless there are programming hooks to limit exploitation. Limit how much skills can physically increase in a set amount of time. It just seems from the presentation in the video its leading to incremental buffs that you have to stop and manage stats rather than kick zombie butt. Granted in A16 I pretty much knew the perk path I wanted to take. But I would spend alot of time not spending because I was immersed in the game and forgot about them once I maxed Clubs and Mining.

[RestInPieces]

Making a levelup system that is based on skill-usage, without offering cheap exploits would be very hard to implement.

The game would need to separate "purposeful" activities from simplistic (repetitive) purposeless use of a skill.

 

Armor skill: would need to know more than just taking damage. But non intentional damage (eg, only from combat)

Sneaking: would have to know if there is a real danger to avoid, that could spot (and reach) the player.

Crafting: not just making an item, but using it, and having a reason to craft it. (and, not having just made similar duplicates without using them)

Movement/Endurance: jump with purpose not bunny hopping on flat terrain. Going somewhere new, not just jumping up a staircase repeatedly.

Weapon use: only count hits to enemies. And then only to those that pose a threat to the player (have a chance to attack).

etc..

 

The recorded skill-activities should probably only get assigned to a skill-increase after some time for the game to determine if the actions had a purpose. (would be also harder for players to decipher the rules how they where assigned).

 

But any system can still be played, once the rules are known to experienced players....

 

 

Crafting - Simple diminishing returns, either with time or recipe-specific (or both) to solve the spam crafting problem. Besides, that's the most realistic thing of all, since the same happens in real life.

 

Armor - It would be extremely easy to make it so that you can get skill points on armor only from enemy hits.

 

Weapons - You don't really have to count hits to only enemies that can attack you, because you can't exactly farm- enemies without loses/risk (ammo, base damage etc), except if you use "exploits" - in that case exploits have to be eliminated for even more important reasons.

 

Athletics - It's also easy to make it so that you have to run a certain distance before the athletics skill starts getting increased - jump skill increase can be removed or also have diminishing returns.

 

Sneaking - Haven't heard of anyone training sneaking this way, but it could be that one should need a clear straight line from the player to the enemy in order for a skill increase to happen.

[Brian9824]

Part of the problem was also stuff like armor crafting. You'd have to craft 1000x more armor then you'd ever use just to level it. Most of the crafting skills would not level fast enough WITHOUT spam crafting far more resources then you would ever use. That was a fundamental problem with design and meant you either had to grind or you had to live with crap gear

[meganoth]

Sorry to say this but A17 feels like 7D2D is turning into some stupid generic game with everything dumbed down ... Great for people new to the game for the first few dozen hours but after that, their is no content. Maybe i am wrong but i stated before that i am sure that A17 is a attempt at drawing in new blood / players into 7D2D for financial reasons.

 

I can assure you that there is old blood (if A15 is enough to be called old blood?) that likes these changes. And I really don't see how giving the player more choice in building his PC is dumbing the game down. An ape could handle "learning-by-doing"

[Numberz]

Strange that so many want to use spam crafting as an argument both for and against the new system when it hasn’t actually been a thing in 7D2D since A15.

 

Personally, I thought the systems for progression in A16 were pretty great, especially for modders. Would have loved to have seen this new system in addition to what was already there.

 

The new buffs look great. Encumberance is ok. New perk effects are great. All could be besides the point if the perk/progression system is too limiting. We’ll see.

[Viktoriusiii]

Gazz tried to balance progression with the other method and it proved impossible.

 

I highly doubt that.

I had multiple solutions for the "craft to win" dilemma. And while one or two might not work, I am confident that, if they really wanted to keep that system, they could have found a way.

I'm sorry, but it was the easy way out.

 

 

Not to mention how much I hate the new perks.

In A13? (dont even know anymore.... so long ago) you got xp in a skill that you used.

Then it got revamped and you only got xp in things you couldnt really farm for. While it felt sluggish and immersionbreaking, after a while you could just ignore it.

NOW there is no quality for weapons (there isnt. unless there is some fantasy attackment that gives you a dmg buff on a weapon, which would be bad in itself)

Nothing progresses by what you use anymore

And nothing you skill really feels like its making a difference. The only important things are the craft unlocks... and maybe the barter perks.

Basically only intelligence.

 

Not only that but weapons are craftable again? o_O

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

Don't you remember how easily you got infinite great guns back when there were weaponpart molds?

And now there aren't even weaponparts so how do you suppose to craft weapons?

An Ak is not a round stick with some string, shooting another stick. You cant simply take some metal and hit it together and BAM ak.

 

 

I stop now. I feel my rage swelling. And thats not very usefuzl for a debate. Cya.

[JCrook1028]

Weapon quality affect the durability and also how many mods can be attached so yes, there IS weapon quality.

 

Afaik from what I've heard it uses a schematic every time you craft a weapon so you are limited in how many you can make to how many schematics you can lay your grubby lil paws on.

[meganoth]

I highly doubt that.

I had multiple solutions for the "craft to win" dilemma. And while one or two might not work, I am confident that, if they really wanted to keep that system, they could have found a way.

I'm sorry, but it was the easy way out.

 

 

Not to mention how much I hate the new perks.

In A13? (dont even know anymore.... so long ago) you got xp in a skill that you used.

Then it got revamped and you only got xp in things you couldnt really farm for. While it felt sluggish and immersionbreaking, after a while you could just ignore it.

NOW there is no quality for weapons (there isnt. unless there is some fantasy attackment that gives you a dmg buff on a weapon, which would be bad in itself)

Nothing progresses by what you use anymore

And nothing you skill really feels like its making a difference. The only important things are the craft unlocks... and maybe the barter perks.

Basically only intelligence.

 

Not only that but weapons are craftable again? o_O

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

Don't you remember how easily you got infinite great guns back when there were weaponpart molds?

And now there aren't even weaponparts so how do you suppose to craft weapons?

An Ak is not a round stick with some string, shooting another stick. You cant simply take some metal and hit it together and BAM ak.

 

 

I stop now. I feel my rage swelling. And thats not very usefuzl for a debate. Cya.

 

I fear you will not like the new alphas because you already go in with an "I don't like this" vibe. Don't compare A17 with previous alphas or an unachievable ideal but look at it as a new game. You will have more fun this way.

 

About crafting: As long as you can buy lots of weapons at the trader, crafting them is not really changing much here. Also weapons are only as good as the mods put into them (at least that's the plan according to TFP, have to actually try it out to believe it) and from what we know till now mods are not craftable.

 

Supposedly AKs are produced in Afghanistan using only basic tools. Add some artistic licence and you get AKs from scrap. Anyway, the "in reality its not possible" train left a long time ago.

 

Question to anyone reading this: Is there no mod that reimplements the old skills (aka "learning-by-doing")?

[LawofJohn]

There is one, Lite progression mod by Lazerblade101 (I think he is the one who did it). Its not perfect, but its the closes thing we have to what I think progression should be. he has it so Minning tools crafted tools depends on the level of your minning tools. Which makes 100% sense.

[meganoth]

There is one, Lite progression mod by Lazerblade101 (I think he is the one who did it). Its not perfect, but its the closes thing we have to what I think progression should be. he has it so Minning tools crafted tools depends on the level of your minning tools. Which makes 100% sense.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

PS: it also makes 100% sense to select perks like in an RPG if you are playing an RPG.

[Poojam]

Encumbrance just serves to make the game more tedious.

 

People want more content (new and multi-seat vehicles, flight, bandits, rare/unique items, a proper storyline, expanded and integrated quest system, npc's, specialized zombies, fixes to the sleeper mechanics/stealth/distractions/sound, server management/admin tools, etc). Why are you showcasing a hot new perk for inventory management!?

 

Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.

[JCrook1028]

Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.

 

I guess it's a good thing this isn't just an RPG then right?

 

I kinda like the way they added encumbrance. It's easily overcome with some perks and it isn't stack size dependent. RavenHearst tried doing it by stack sizes and frankly it just didn't work. This approach seems like it will work well.

[Poojam]

I guess it's a good thing this isn't just an RPG then right?

 

I kinda like the way they added encumbrance. It's easily overcome with some perks and it isn't stack size dependent. RavenHearst tried doing it by stack sizes and frankly it just didn't work. This approach seems like it will work well.

 

Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.

[Khulkhuum]

I'm sure most of you forget one important thing about the changes with the new perk system. Foundation.

 

I recall someone (perhaps even Joel) pointed out that this will be a big basis for future content. Not gonna go into why this takes so much time or revamps the whole game, but it's essentially a solution that can be tweaked and configured easier in the next updates. I could also go into a fit about "It was supposed to be done and here we have new features?!", but that can be explained fairly easily also.

 

Imagine you would like to build your first car(or motorcycle) engine from scratch for your vehicle. You surely seen how various engines are built, but you have your own features in mind and what you need in the end. Sure you know the basics, but considering a lot of time spent on research and preparation, even the first thing you make will have some drawbacks or will not be optimal. Even so, having that first completed allows you to tweak this and that, changing parameters and you learn how to make it even better. Still, there are limitations on how much you can change things and sometimes the better solution is to build a new engine with a different design.

 

Do you talk about the new texturing and painting introduced not so long ago (i mean in the recent alphas)? It started giving so much more freedom in showing the world and i expect even more juicing it in the future.

 

Now don't get me wrong, i'd love some more content mid-late game and some rebalancing of the progression (we will have new progression so that's out of the window, but surely it will need to be tweaked at some point and that's why i address it). Sure, there are mods for many things, but it shouldn't be a cure for everything.

 

My point is... We will simply see how things work out. Some people will like it, some won't. We should simply take the best of it and have our fun.

[Jedo]

Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.

 

I can bench 200 lbs. like a breeze, but put on 10 more lbs. (a mere 5% increase) and I start slowing down? Reality that is.