Underground Debate #589

[RestInPieces]

I don't have time to read the whole thread and I won't debate whether something should be done or not especially since the devs have said multiple times in the past that they intend to do this and I have been expecting them for a looong time now to make a good on their word - these ideas have been suggested before but the devs themselves must find a good way to go about it. Besides, it is futile to argue with asininities of the "don't do it if you don't like it", the "you just hate mole people", or the "my freedomz are being compromised" kind.

 

There are plenty of easy ways to at least achieve something similar to what the OP is describing.

 

You can call it radiation/chemicals (which is realistic since these materials have been absorbed by the earth and fits with the bombing theme), check the depth of the current block the player occupies in regard to the default surface generated, giving it a value beforehand or at runtime and optionally its direct connection to the surface.

 

Have the player get a debuff when going below surface, exponentially with depth, give him a way to counter it with a radiation suit or a non-portable machine that gives him a buff (resistance/whatever) if chunks are a problem, that needs to be refilled with something or be maintained with a gatherable resource (and in the case of a rad suit it should it should last a while even if not exposed to radiation/chemicals so that he doesn't have to change equipment every time he travels to the surface).

 

I am sure that if the devs dedicate more than 10 seconds to actually think of solution which is good, practical and applicable, they will think of something much better than us. Up to now I don't think they have dedicated more than that on this matter.

[H4kkepeter]

I bet I get thrown out of the window for this one, but:

 

The easiest way to end this neverending discussion? Devs should remove the multiplayer, problem solved 8D

[kamer1337]

what undergorund needs?

 

- abandoned mines

- random lava

 

thats all i can think, im against limiting underground hiding to some "air pumps"

[meganoth]

Have the player get a debuff when going below surface, exponentially with depth, give him a way to counter it with a radiation suit or a non-portable machine that gives him a buff (resistance/whatever) if chunks are a problem, that needs to be refilled with something or be maintained with a gatherable resource (and in the case of a rad suit it should it should last a while even if not exposed to radiation/chemicals so that he doesn't have to change equipment every time he travels to the surface).

 

Well, this is an idea that was proposed with small variations a lot of times. And I don't see the advantage of it compared to digging zombies. The developers supposedly have three reasons to change the underground.

1) make avoiding the zombies not too easy (i.e. by digging a hole three blocks deep). The reason most often cited by the developers

2) make underground interesting, A reason most often cited by players

3) add survival aspects to the underground. A reason not completely separate from 2

 

Your solution fails 1 completely as it only makes deeper underground dangerous. And even if you dropped the " exponentially with depth", donning a radiation suit at least is not hard at all.

 

And your solution doesn't solve 2 (this is a matter of opinion) as it adds danger, but a very boring one. Like the often-critizised clothes swapping because of temperature it isn't very interesting swapping into a radiation suit when going down. Installing a machine is a bit more interesting, but is a lot more implementation work and is also not a dynamic threat at all. Its only advantage is that it is a different game mechanic while zombies are nothing new, but because of implementation work it doesn't fit your description "easy to achieve"

 

Ok, it solves 3.

[meganoth]

What I actually want is the possibility to be safe from time to time, if I so choose. MadMole seemed to be willing to give players this possibility and Faatal seemed to dismiss it. This is what got this conversation started.

 

Well, like anything else in the game, if you work for it and take precautions you are safe. As safe as you are if you drive a car, walk over a street, fix your roof, use a saw or wash your windows.

 

If you want more, a lot of methods have been listed in the forums, from loggin off, god mode, simply dying, up to and including using mods. Sure some methods don't work in all situations, but there is always one available in each situation.

 

Even madmole didn't give you 100% safety in vanilla as you have to get the money for the room or play a looooong time until you have enough xp to get stealth to max.

[RestInPieces]

Well, this is an idea that was proposed with small variations a lot of times. And I don't see the advantage of it compared to digging zombies. The developers supposedly have three reasons to change the underground.

1) make avoiding the zombies not too easy (i.e. by digging a hole three blocks deep). The reason most often cited by the developers

2) make underground interesting, A reason most often cited by players

3) add survival aspects to the underground. A reason not completely separate from 2

 

Your solution fails 1 completely as it only makes deeper underground dangerous. And even if you dropped the " exponentially with depth", donning a radiation suit at least is not hard at all.

 

And your solution doesn't solve 2 (this is a matter of opinion) as it adds danger, but a very boring one. Like the often-critizised clothes swapping because of temperature it isn't very interesting swapping into a radiation suit when going down. Installing a machine is a bit more interesting, but is a lot more implementation work and is also not a dynamic threat at all. Its only advantage is that it is a different game mechanic while zombies are nothing new, but because of implementation work it doesn't fit your description "easy to achieve"

 

Ok, it solves 3.

 

Digging zombies will be a glitchy nightmare imo like it was back in the early alphas. Personally don't care much about 1) as long as a survival aspect is introduced to the underground with the goals of giving it its own pros and cons for a more varied playstyle. With 1) this doesn't happen.

 

I agree, this hazard is static. Any countermeasure should have a maintenance requirement - even a suit. The point of this hazard is to make the underground more high maintenance that also needs some planning, while making you scavenge for that resource. Also imo the game greatly needs more motives for end-game scavenging. As for cloth swapping, I already mentioned that if implemented correctly with the buff system, the player won't have to be changing equipment often because the debuff could last a x period of time after emerging from the underground, which is another con that gets balanced out by the underground safety.

 

I agree that this hazard by itself is not the "being hunted by zombies"-exciting kind of type, but personally I prefer it to digging zombies or what we have now. If it was up to me though I would add a mix of different hazards and not radiation alone.

 

As for the implementation... I bet my ass that radiation is easier to achieve than well-working non-glitchy digging zombies. As long as you can detect the player's depth, proximity with earth blocks and whether he is under the generated surface blocks for example, you can just make the player take damage/whatever. Furthermore, in the future it can easily become more dynamic, with buried radioactive waste, machinery that emits radiation and so on.

[meganoth]

As for the implementation... I bet my ass that radiation is easier to achieve than well-working non-glitchy digging zombies. As long as you can detect the player's depth, proximity with earth blocks and whether he is under the generated surface blocks for example, you can just make the player take damage/whatever. Furthermore, in the future it can easily become more dynamic, with buried radioactive waste, machinery that emits radiation and so on.

 

I was speaking about the non-portable machine you mentioned to offset the radiation. Rereading your post I see now that I got the wrong idea about the machine, probably because a lot of the recent underground discussion was about pumping machinery.

 

So, is that machine supposed to be a chamber on the surface to remove radioactive residue or a sort of shield placed in the underground?

[Damocles]

A Simple solution to the "air ventilation".

make Ventilation blocks.

They need to connect to a compressor that is in the open air.

 

A ventilation block (pipe) can then support air for a number of blocks around it.

 

The number of connected blocks determine the power the Compressor needs to provide.

Blocks too far of will not get airflow.

 

The calculation to search connected blocks (pipes) is not very hard to do, and the limit it connected blocks give an upper limit how long this ventilation system can be.

 

Any block that was previously (after generation) under ground, is considered to require ventilation. (apart from the very surface layer blocks). Any block that has a direct connection (trace) up to the sky is also ventilated down to a few meters. (to not make wide holes have no air).

 

A system like this would require players to build under ground to put extra effort into engeneering an airsupport.

And it requires to saveguard and powert the compressor (loud) -> making an underground base still vulnerable.

 

Non ventialted blocks (any voxel under ground/terrain at the time of generation) will not kill the player immediately, but should have some negative effect that adds up over time. This allows to dig down and mine, but require to walk up after a while (without a ventilation system).

[RestInPieces]

I was speaking about the non-portable machine you mentioned to offset the radiation. Rereading your post I see now that I got the wrong idea about the machine, probably because a lot of the recent underground discussion was about pumping machinery.

 

So, is that machine supposed to be a chamber on the surface to remove radioactive residue or a sort of shield placed in the underground?

 

Just a general concept of something (portable or not) that makes underground living viable but needs maintenance/resources. Since I have read only the OP in this thread (not much time on my hands atm), something of that caliber (like simulating breathing air) would be a pain to implement. But a simpler and at the same time similar solution can be found, either with chemicals, radiation or anything else that fits the theme.

 

In real life, with radiation, besides a decontamination chamber combined with protection (lead walls or suit), I can't think of anything else that can actually be remotely realistic and serve that general purpose. Thematically, "bio/chemicals" are more convenient (and as a bonus there's a lot of leeway with graphical effects - like miniscule green particles in the air). Say, a "decontamination machine", requiring electricity and a filtering ingredient, could just flatly neutralize chemicals in a range. Also kind of eliminates the "multiple chunk base" exploit. It's not that it hasn't been said before, it's just that sometimes simpler is better and more likely to be implemented.

 

I also prefer dynamic hazards (in fact I'd wish most things in these game were more dynamic like machine malfunction, spoilage etc), but even seemingly static ones, can have some dynamic elements. Then again another suggestion I had made in the past for an underground threat were... maggots (still believe it is the best one ). Also take future bandits into account combined with the underground-exclusive threat.

 

 

A Simple solution to the "air ventilation".

make Ventilation blocks.

They need to connect to a compressor that is in the open air.

 

A ventilation block (pipe) can then support air for a number of blocks around it.

 

The number of connected blocks determine the power the Compressor needs to provide.

Blocks too far of will not get airflow.

 

The calculation to search connected blocks (pipes) is not very hard to do, and the limit it connected blocks give an upper limit how long this ventilation system can be.

 

Any block that was previously (after generation) under ground, is considered to require ventilation. (apart from the very surface layer blocks). Any block that has a direct connection (trace) up to the sky is also ventilated down to a few meters. (to not make wide holes have no air).

 

A system like this would require players to build under ground to put extra effort into engeneering an airsupport.

And it requires to saveguard and powert the compressor (loud) -> making an underground base still vulnerable.

 

Non ventialted blocks (any voxel under ground/terrain at the time of generation) will not kill the player immediately, but should have some negative effect that adds up over time. This allows to dig down and mine, but require to walk up after a while (without a ventilation system).

 

Also blocks that were underground on gen but have direct sunlight contact should provide ventilation to a fair range of adjacent blocks besides lower blocks. This is surely something less complex than what is mentioned in the OP and well thought of imo. Might still be prone for exploits though but I think that the possibilities of having unrealistic occasions of oxygen deprivation could be eliminated. Wonder what the devs have to say.

[meganoth]

Also blocks that were underground on gen but have direct sunlight contact should provide ventilation to a fair range of adjacent blocks besides lower blocks. This is surely something less complex than what is mentioned in the OP and well thought of imo. Might still be prone for exploits though but I think that the possibilities of having unrealistic occasions of oxygen deprivation could be eliminated. Wonder what the devs have to say.

 

There is a reply from Fataal to all these underground ventilation ideas detailing some of the edge cases that make it more complicated. For example if these vent-blocks are partly outside of the spawned-in area it gets strange. In multiplayer you would get air as long as another player is in the area of the pump and suffocate if he moves away.

[RestInPieces]

There is a reply from Fataal to all these underground ventilation ideas detailing some of the edge cases that make it more complicated. For example if these vent-blocks are partly outside of the spawned-in area it gets strange. In multiplayer you would get air as long as another player is in the area of the pump and suffocate if he moves away.

 

Ah yes, totally forgot about how chunks are loaded.

[Roland]

There is a reply from Fataal to all these underground ventilation ideas detailing some of the edge cases that make it more complicated. For example if these vent-blocks are partly outside of the spawned-in area it gets strange. In multiplayer you would get air as long as another player is in the area of the pump and suffocate if he moves away.

 

Seems like it could be most easily done if at a specific world depth a suffocation debuff would be activated. If you placed a vent block it could have an AOE that negated the suffocation debuff. Then, much as you place torches in Minecraft to maintain a light level underground and dispel darkness you would place vents spaced out to dispel the suffocation effect. Like Minecraft's torches they would never go out or have to be micro-managed. You just place and forget in order to be able to have breathable air. No calculations other than the radius from each vent that the suffocation debuff would be negated.

 

To make it interesting there could be one zombie type that would be attracted to the things....

[Damocles]

There is a reply from Fataal to all these underground ventilation ideas detailing some of the edge cases that make it more complicated. For example if these vent-blocks are partly outside of the spawned-in area it gets strange. In multiplayer you would get air as long as another player is in the area of the pump and suffocate if he moves away.

 

The thing is: the data regarding ventilation / if a block has oxygen is only really needed when the player is at that place.

Otherwise the whole state of the blocks can be kept as it was at the last update.

Unloaded chunks are saved and keep their state (if a block has oxygen supply or not, if the pipes have an unbroken connection).

 

Chunks are world data in the surrounding of the player, so they will be loaded when the player is near by. From the looks of it chunk-data for around 200 blocks to each side at least.

The oxygen calculation simply only update the state (connection working, oxygen available) when the chunks are all loaded.

 

by reducing the length those "pipes" can go, the length of that whole system could be limited to a reasonable size (around the compressor) so that all chunks are loaded anyhow when the player enters the relevant area. Its more calculatable than a floodfill calculation on an unknown size of terrain-voxels (like a huge cave).

[Survager]

Seems like it could be most easily done if at a specific world depth a suffocation debuff would be activated. If you placed a vent block it could have an AOE that negated the suffocation debuff. Then, much as you place torches in Minecraft to maintain a light level underground and dispel darkness you would place vents spaced out to dispel the suffocation effect. Like Minecraft's torches they would never go out or have to be micro-managed. You just place and forget in order to be able to have breathable air. No calculations other than the radius from each vent that the suffocation debuff would be negated.

 

To make it interesting there could be one zombie type that would be attracted to the things....

 

May be this vent block can be as some as block campfire, but for work it will be use electrics and some removable filters, as the campfire use fuel.

 

And the range of the ventilation unit can also be calculated as the radius of heat from the campfire, only much more.

 

Plus, the ventilation units themselves could gradually break down, and periodically require expensive repairs.

[RestInPieces]

Seems like it could be most easily done if at a specific world depth a suffocation debuff would be activated. If you placed a vent block it could have an AOE that negated the suffocation debuff. Then, much as you place torches in Minecraft to maintain a light level underground and dispel darkness you would place vents spaced out to dispel the suffocation effect. Like Minecraft's torches they would never go out or have to be micro-managed. You just place and forget in order to be able to have breathable air. No calculations other than the radius from each vent that the suffocation debuff would be negated.

 

To make it interesting there could be one zombie type that would be attracted to the things....

 

Exactly what I was saying above but with "condensed chemicals" in the air below the surface that have the bonus of not caring about calculations or detections like if the cave is dug out etc (like oxygen), and they will be a world constant in the underground, plus, could also be visible when they are present. Although if they aren't micromanaged, there goes a motive for end game scavenging to maintain them.

 

Anyway yes, they should attract, maggots (still insist it's the best underground suggestion).

[meganoth]

Seems like it could be most easily done if at a specific world depth a suffocation debuff would be activated. If you placed a vent block it could have an AOE that negated the suffocation debuff. Then, much as you place torches in Minecraft to maintain a light level underground and dispel darkness you would place vents spaced out to dispel the suffocation effect. Like Minecraft's torches they would never go out or have to be micro-managed. You just place and forget in order to be able to have breathable air. No calculations other than the radius from each vent that the suffocation debuff would be negated.

 

To make it interesting there could be one zombie type that would be attracted to the things....

 

In other words the only interesting part in this is the zombie

 

The thing is: the data regarding ventilation / if a block has oxygen is only really needed when the player is at that place.

Otherwise the whole state of the blocks can be kept as it was at the last update.

Unloaded chunks are saved and keep their state (if a block has oxygen supply or not, if the pipes have an unbroken connection).

 

Assume two players, far enough away from each other so that inbetween is an unloaded part. One in shooting range of an inlet, one near a block supplied from there. Now the first player closes one inlet (for example by shooting at a stick of dynamite). Now without loading the area inbetween the program has no chance to find out if the other player still has oxygen.

 

Solutions: Simply accept this edge case. Or load any chunks you need for such calculations. Or, as you say below, limit the range, I guess to exactly the 200 blocks, if you are right about chunk size. My point being that there are always more edge cases than you expect.

 

Chunks are world data in the surrounding of the player, so they will be loaded when the player is near by. From the looks of it chunk-data for around 200 blocks to each side at least.

The oxygen calculation simply only update the state (connection working, oxygen available) when the chunks are all loaded.

 

by reducing the length those "pipes" can go, the length of that whole system could be limited to a reasonable size (around the compressor) so that all chunks are loaded anyhow when the player enters the relevant area. Its more calculatable than a floodfill calculation on an unknown size of terrain-voxels (like a huge cave).

 

Mmmh, 200 blocks limit means if you are digging down to bedrock (which is about 60 blocks below surface) you have 140 blocks left horizontally. Every 280 blocks you need another duct to the surface.

 

Which might be ok, not sure. Gives a miner some incentive to not always dig horizontally

[JCrook1028]

The thing is: the data regarding ventilation / if a block has oxygen is only really needed when the player is at that place.

Otherwise the whole state of the blocks can be kept as it was at the last update.

Unloaded chunks are saved and keep their state (if a block has oxygen supply or not, if the pipes have an unbroken connection).

 

Chunks are world data in the surrounding of the player, so they will be loaded when the player is near by. From the looks of it chunk-data for around 200 blocks to each side at least.

The oxygen calculation simply only update the state (connection working, oxygen available) when the chunks are all loaded.

 

by reducing the length those "pipes" can go, the length of that whole system could be limited to a reasonable size (around the compressor) so that all chunks are loaded anyhow when the player enters the relevant area. Its more calculatable than a floodfill calculation on an unknown size of terrain-voxels (like a huge cave).

 

That's all well and good if chunks are that big. Aren't they more like 15x15 tho? hence what faatal said about it being a problem for a vent block to know if it is connected to the surface or not>

[Damocles]

That's all well and good if chunks are that big. Aren't they more like 15x15 tho? hence what faatal said about it being a problem for a vent block to know if it is connected to the surface or not>

 

The game will load in more than just 1 chunk. Its needs to load in enough chunks to at least draw and update all voxels in the viewing distance.

If the sideway dimension of the whole system is less than the viewing distance / loaded in chunks. It can update the blocks once the player reaches any outer end of the pipe system and will have all data loaded.

 

(Apart from that we would need precise numbers about chunks and the minimum loaded distance to see if there are problems with that approach or not, and if all vertical chunks are loaded in all the time at that position)

[Roland]

In other words the only interesting part in this is the zombie

 

Well, I admit it isn't fancy but fancy has costs.

[KingSlayerGM]

To all these people discussing ventilation and how to implement it...

 

besides implementation issues,

 

do you think it would be fun to need to worry about ventilation in this game?

 

I would prefer spending my time in the game doing more fun activities, rather than worrying about ventilation. I think it is one of those cases where you try to be too realistic and the gameplay is affected in a negative way.

[Vomkat]

The obvious solution is to simply get rid of underground. Replace the stone layer with bedrock, problem solved. It's a zombie survival game, the very idea of going underground is absurd. If you were in a zombie apocalypse, would you grab a shovel and start digging down??????? NO.

[Kattla]

If you were in a zombie apocalypse, would you grab a shovel and start digging down??????? NO.

 

Knowing the horde WILL hit any building with the enough force to make a steam locomotive jaleous, AND that the

zombies also have taken a degree in structural engineering, i'd say digging may starting to look like one of the

better choices if survive i want.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

besides implementation issues,

 

do you think it would be fun to need to worry about ventilation in this game?

 

Having played stationeers, horrible inventory system aside, i think it may actually be cool, litteraly,

to fiddle around with a well implemented ventilation system. And it be more or less required for

any base, be it above , on or below ground.

[Roland]

besides implementation issues,

 

do you think it would be fun to need to worry about ventilation in this game?

 

I would prefer spending my time in the game doing more fun activities, rather than worrying about ventilation. I think it is one of those cases where you try to be too realistic and the gameplay is affected in a negative way.

 

I think as a discussion exercise (which spends no development time) it is useful for modders who will be looking to try new fun things with the A17 architecture. I would certainly try an A17 mod that implements ventilation to find out whether it is fun or not.

[meganoth]

The obvious solution is to simply get rid of underground. Replace the stone layer with bedrock, problem solved. It's a zombie survival game, the very idea of going underground is absurd. If you were in a zombie apocalypse, would you grab a shovel and start digging down??????? NO.

 

You are aware that your suggestion has not a snowball's chance in hell to be implemented? Just saying, if you want to waste your time go ahead, but your idea of the game is very obviously quite different and much more narrow from what TFP wants.

[Katitof]

Zombies digging all the way down to bedrock to get to the mole players would be such a satisfying experience.

 

I'd love to see other underground hazards as well, but digging zombies would be a good start.