Underground Debate #589

[Dauthiatull]

become so accomplished at stealth that not even blood moon zombies will be able to detect you.

 

now that sounds like a reasonable end game goal. you work to get to that point, then you can feel like you won that round and start a fresh map.

 

maybe at that point the player could be given a quest to be extracted. once complete the char is removed from the map and the map is deleted. you then have the option of using that char, with all stats, levels, and items carried in a new map. could also add a new stat. maps visited.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

I just want those who get upset by underground threats to understand that nobody at TFP has EVER phrased their comments in a way to say that they want to punish or prevent people from having underground bases. Those sorts of comments come from other gamers who have absolutely zero decision making power. Don't let their posts trigger you because they are meaningless.

 

The developers want threats and challenges in every biome so that every place in the game (sans the menu screen) is part of the survival game. They are NOT working to prevent anyone from building bases at bedrock and they are NOT trying to push everyone onto the surface during horde night. Joel has said in the past that eventually you might be able to rent a room at Duke's casino to completely bypass the horde night if you wish or become so accomplished at stealth that not even blood moon zombies will be able to detect you. All official communication coming from TFP points to allowing multiple playstyles (once they are done). It is only unofficial communication from fellow community members that dips into the realm of "we need to force people topside".

 

So the next time someone types, "If TFP wants to prevent people from building at bedrock they should...." don't get triggered. That person has no power, no influence, and no clue about what TFP wants. This is a voxel game. TFP chose this medium so that we would play underground.

 

I think that the issue (at least for me) is the devs are saying that there should be nowhere in the game that is "safe" without clarifying what they mean by that.

 

At one extreme it could mean "Nowhere should be 100% danger free if you spend all of your time there including horde night".

 

At the other extreme it could mean "No base or building should ever be able to keep out a horde of zombies (whether horde night or wandering). You should never have a safe respite and you should always end up with them having broken in and be fighting/fleeing for your life every day and every night."

 

Given that my preferred playstyle (and I don't think this is a particularly uncommon one) is "out and about during the day, retreat to a safehouse when it gets dark", following the natural rhythm of the game. I therefore naturally worry about how far between the above extremes the devs' are aiming to balance things.

 

If "nowhere should be safe" simply means that we can't stay somewhere 24/7 (including horde night) completely free of danger, that's fine. But if "nowhere should be safe" means that we can't hole up in a safehouse overnight on a non-horde night without zombies destroying walls, collapsing support pillars, digging through the roof, or otherwise breaking in; then that's going to prevent me playing in the style that I enjoy and of course I'm going to be upset about that.

[KRISMA]

Considering that in A16, building bases on stilts or underground is pretty much the same as God mode, I think it's pretty safe to say it is an exploit.

 

Besides, noone is trying to remove building bases underground, people just want underground to be challenging, that's all.

 

I always build on stilts, underground or have a separate place for 7 days hordes, not because i do not like the challenge, but because of the difficulty with lagging.

I would love to build plenty traps around my house in order for it to handle a 7 day horde, but it is impossible to play with so much going on.

i have updated my pc and i often play on server so maybe in A17 we will see.

[KingSlayerGM]

Will your underground bunker be 100 percent safe? No.

Some players wish to have a safe place in the game and the underground has been so far. Roland said TFP want to allow all play styles, but removing safe underground bases, eliminates one play style..

 

 

Not sure where you are seeing the inconsistency. Bypassing a horde night is way different than being able to live underground with ZERO threats.

 

Yes, you are right. However, bypassing the horde night is, in a way, being safe. Which doesn't match what Faatal said... So MadMole's and Faatal's last statements on the subject don't fully agree one another, or, more probably, just need clarification.

[KingSlayerGM]

I think you are taking faatal's comment out of context.

 

Probably! I would love to know in details what their actual plan is..

[Aldranon]

Realistic threats for living below ground.

 

- Needing oxygen. Simple air tank system like Empyrion would be good.

 

- Temp vision debuff in daylight. Maybe 10% of the time spent underground.

 

- Black lung. Digging coal underground without breathing protection should reduce the players stamina.

[mr.devolver]

Realistic threats for living below ground.

 

- Needing oxygen. Simple air tank system like Empyrion would be good.

 

- Temp vision debuff in daylight. Maybe 10% of the time spent underground.

 

- Black lung. Digging coal underground without breathing protection should reduce the players stamina.

 

- Gas issues

[Gnomaana]

Some players wish to have a safe place in the game and the underground has been so far. Roland said TFP want to allow all play styles, but removing safe underground bases, eliminates one play style..

 

When Roland said TFP wants to allow all play styles, there is obviously a limit. It's impossible to allow ALL playstyles. But, having said that, you can still be safe in the game. Turn God Mode on or just turn zombies off. A group of players that chose a survival game but don't want to have to do anything to survive except dig down 10 blocks is not a group you program for if you are designing a survival game.

[NBornkilla]

When Roland said TFP wants to allow all play styles, there is obviously a limit. It's impossible to allow ALL playstyles. But, having said that, you can still be safe in the game. Turn God Mode on or just turn zombies off. A group of players that chose a survival game but don't want to have to do anything to survive except dig down 10 blocks is not a group you program for if you are designing a survival game.

 

or you can build ah strong underground bunker zombie wont be able to get in .

[meganoth]

Some players wish to have a safe place in the game and the underground has been so far. Roland said TFP want to allow all play styles, but removing safe underground bases, eliminates one play style..

 

Well, lets assume "underground bases" is a playstyle, "safe underground bases" is a play style with the word "safe" added.

 

How about accepting that underground bases will still be possible and existing in A17. NO ONE from TFP ever said anything else. You just have to add some defenses or make a second base or go somewhere else for horde night.

 

Yes, you are right. However, bypassing the horde night is, in a way, being safe. Which doesn't match what Faatal said... So MadMole's and Faatal's last statements on the subject don't fully agree one another, or, more probably, just need clarification.

 

Yes, I think you really found a discrepancy here. It is not surprising that they don't have exactly the same ideas about the game.

 

You have a group of people and they have different views and I'm sure on team meetings a lot of ideas are thrown out and discussed and rejected or accepted. Ultimately MM and Fun Pimps as the owners have the last say, but if someone brings compelling arguments to the table they probably will say ""Why should I care about the things I said yesterday?" (Famous words by Konrad Adenauer).

 

So, if they get it to work, underground will no longer be absolutely safe. But maybe it is possible to eventually rent a safe room for a night for a horrendous fee. I don't think TFP will really make stealth so good that you are totally safe at horde night. What MM said were just ideas that he was throwing out, what actually goes into vanilla in the end will be hashed out in team meetings.

 

In short, we get to see a little of the workings of a developer team, who are not yet all perfect clones of MM

[KingSlayerGM]

When Roland said TFP wants to allow all play styles, there is obviously a limit. It's impossible to allow ALL playstyles. But, having said that, you can still be safe in the game. Turn God Mode on or just turn zombies off. A group of players that chose a survival game but don't want to have to do anything to survive except dig down 10 blocks is not a group you program for if you are designing a survival game.

 

1. Wishing to be safe sometimes, is different than wishing to be safe always
   
2. Turning god mode on isn't always an option when you are playing mp
   
3. Turning off zombies isn't compelling, when you like killing zombies
   
4. Nobody said that those players don't want to do anything to survive. On the contrary, surviving in this specific game, is not just about zombies.
   

[KingSlayerGM]

No reason to be a $%$ about it. I know some people come on here and use their hours played as some sort of reason they have to be right. In the context of the discussion going on that isn't what he did. He was making it clear that he hadn't only played the game 1 play through and thought he found a bug. Hordes that just stop after one wave or a few is a well known bug but he was being told he must be crazy or something because that isn't how hordes work. That number was just thrown out to show he wasn't talking about playing one or two horde nights. I've seen the same thing he is talking about happen. I never did figure out what was causing it on my play through.

 

Hey, you probably miss clicked! This post seems to be what you were referring to..

 

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

snip

 

You are right.

 

It's just that sometimes it is hard to tell what it is just an idea of a dev from what it is an actual plan...

[meganoth]

Realistic threats for living below ground.

 

- Needing oxygen. Simple air tank system like Empyrion would be good.

 

- Temp vision debuff in daylight. Maybe 10% of the time spent underground.

 

- Black lung. Digging coal underground without breathing protection should reduce the players stamina.

 

- Zombies.

 

No really, in a zombie game they ARE a realistic threat

[iejen]

1. Wishing to be safe sometimes, is different than wishing to be safe always
   
2. Turning god mode on isn't always an option when you are playing mp
   
3. Turning off zombies isn't compelling, when you like killing zombies
   
4. Nobody said that those players don't want to do anything to survive. On the contrary, surviving in this specific game, is not just about zombies.
   

 

KingSlayer, You will never change the mind of an anti-underground player.

They do not understand that we build underground to hide partially from danger not to stay safe at all time.

I spend about 95% of my time above ground.

But I want my resources to be safe in my homebase.

 

If a landclaim block would stop spawning of zombie's it would be fine for me aswell.

In that case I would stay in my above ground base without risking to have everything I build being destroyed.

Just put a wall large around it large enough to not have them sense me immediately.

 

Same goes for the 7th day horde.

9/10 times I fight the horde.

But sometimes i'm just busy with something else.

 

Or I log of a multiplayer game after blasting all my ammo on day 7.

And the day after I log in a multiplayer game at 21:50 on day 14.

In that case I am forced to hide.

 

Forcing me to die over and over ruins gameplay.

But they will never see it like that.

Because it's not their way of playing, so they hate it.

 

If TFP do not give their players a location to stay safe (even for a few hours) they will lose a big part of their playerbase.

Also, making underground more dangerous will not stop logging of a MP server at 21:00.

 

PS: Underground base haters will say; "In real life zombie outbreak you would not dig a hole".

But they forget that in a real life zombie outbreak human flesh can't smash a cement wall.

But that's none of my business.

 

Bottom line, A16 rocks gameplay wise.

Can't wait to play A17.

Small learning curve but i'm still hyped!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Realistic threats for living below ground.

 

- Needing oxygen. Simple air tank system like Empyrion would be good.

 

- Temp vision debuff in daylight. Maybe 10% of the time spent underground.

 

- Black lung. Digging coal underground without breathing protection should reduce the players stamina.

 

1) We have AC's !

2) We have electricity!

3) We haze hazard masks!

[Tin]

1. Wishing to be safe sometimes, is different than wishing to be safe always
   
2. Turning god mode on isn't always an option when you are playing mp
   
3. Turning off zombies isn't compelling, when you like killing zombies
   
4. Nobody said that those players don't want to do anything to survive. On the contrary, surviving in this specific game, is not just about zombies.
   

 

Where In what Roland posted did MM even say you wouldn't be able to be safe periodically? Same with what Fataal posted?

 

Here's another nugget that's overlooked: The game is also tagged as [Horror] not only that but they also have it tagged as [survival Horror] as well. Where In anything that is 'Horror' driven does it give you the impression you're going to be 100% safe?

Sorry, I want my Horror aspect as well.

 

Descriptor Tags they have for this game:

Survival, Zombies, Open World, Crafting, Multiplayer, Sandbox, Building, Co-op, Action, Adventure, Survival Horror, Horror, Online Co-Op, FPS, Early Access, RPG, Indie, Singleplayer, Gore.

 

Again: Who say's TFP won't be putting in more settings and options that ppl can tweak to their desires after the fact? I haven't heard them say that.. maybe I'm wrong? <shrug>

[iejen]

Sorry, I want my Horror aspect as well.

 

The fact that you want it should not mean that everyone else is forced to have it.

[Gnomaana]

KingSlayer, You will never change the mind of an anti-underground player.

They do not understand that we build underground to hide partially from danger not to stay safe at all time.

I spend about 95% of my time above ground.

But I want my resources to be safe in my homebase.

 

If a landclaim block would stop spawning of zombie's it would be fine for me aswell.

In that case I would stay in my above ground base without risking to have everything I build being destroyed.

Just put a wall large around it large enough to not have them sense me immediately.

 

Same goes for the 7th day horde.

9/10 times I fight the horde.

But sometimes i'm just busy with something else.

 

Or I log of a multiplayer game after blasting all my ammo on day 7.

And the day after I log in a multiplayer game at 21:50 on day 14.

In that case I am forced to hide.

 

Forcing me to die over and over ruins gameplay.

But they will never see it like that.

Because it's not their way of playing, so they hate it.

 

If TFP do not give their players a location to stay safe (even for a few hours) they will lose a big part of their playerbase.

Also, making underground more dangerous will not stop logging of a MP server at 21:00.

 

PS: Underground base haters will say; "In real life zombie outbreak you would not dig a hole".

But they forget that in a real life zombie outbreak human flesh can't smash a cement wall.

But that's none of my business.

 

Bottom line, A16 rocks gameplay wise.

Can't wait to play A17.

Small learning curve but i'm still hyped!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

1) We have AC's !

2) We have electricity!

3) We haze hazard masks!

 

You know how I know you don't know what you are talking about? The first line: You will never change the mind of an anti-underground player.

 

I don't know of a single person on here that is "anti-underground". We just want it to be fun. It's not right now. Sorry if our want of survival aspects in a survival game ruins your fun. But if you want to be always safe then pick a game that isn't tagged "survival".

[Doombringer101]

The fact that you want it should not mean that everyone else is forced to have it.

 

Seriously?

Tin just outlined tags from Steam that the Dev's selected.

The posts from MM and faatal also indicate safety is not something to take for granted.

Your argument is childish.

[Gnomaana]

Hey, you probably miss clicked! This post seems to be what you were referring to..

 

Nope, I clicked on the right one. Or are you trying to say your post wasn't being snarky about someone posting their number of hours played?

[Kalex]

The fact that you want it should not mean that everyone else is forced to have it.

 

If you aren't wanting the horror aspect, then playing a Survival Horror game probably isn't the best game for you to be playing.

[iejen]

@Gnomaana

I understand your point.

It's not about the underground.

It's not about being safe all the time

It's about having the option to be able to have a safe homebase if you wish.

 

Just gave my opinion. Y'all shouldn't be mad

[Tin]

@Gnomaana

I understand your point.

It's not about the underground.

It's not about being safe all the time

It's about having the option to be able to have a safe homebase if you wish.

 

Just gave my opinion. Y'all shouldn't be mad

 

I'm not upset in the least. Year after Year, Build after Build, I'm getting everything I've read and TFP said they would give me by purchasing the game.

[Gnomaana]

You are right.

 

It's just that sometimes it is hard to tell what it is just an idea of a dev from what it is an actual plan...

 

Not really. Just never assume there are words in a dev's statement that aren't there. Unless they use the phrase "we are planning...." go with they are just throwing out ideas.

 

Also, even if they do use the phrase "we are planning...", remember that this is alpha and crap happens to plans ALL the time.

[JaxTeller718]

1. Wishing to be safe sometimes, is different than wishing to be safe always
   
2. Turning god mode on isn't always an option when you are playing mp
   
3. Turning off zombies isn't compelling, when you like killing zombies
   
4. Nobody said that those players don't want to do anything to survive. On the contrary, surviving in this specific game, is not just about zombies.
   

 

You're cherry picking options. What you want is a specific style of play. That is what modding is for.

 

Safe play is NOT a play style. Underground living is. The Pimps NEVER once said "If you want to play this game with NO threats, we dig that and we will adapt our mechanics for that play style". All they promised is to allow your way of building.

 

There was never a guarantee of 100 percent safety from threats. Be it zombies, natural or gas related.

 

The whole idea of "I want to play with zombies but..." "I want to go above ground but...." I want to live underground but..." is exactly why modding is a thing. There's no possible way the Pimps can balance for ALL of what everyone wants.

[Gazz]

Safe play is NOT a play style. Underground living is.

Turning zombies off (like before horde night) is a game option. One could argue it's a play style but personally I don't see much play in there.