Clarification on Health and Stamina

[Roland]

Hey guys,

 

Please understand that every member of the dev team knows their own specialized area of the game intimately but they aren't always familiar with things that others have been working on. Madmole has said a number of times that he is just as excited as we are to "discover" A17 because he will be learning about new features that he was not directly involved with.

 

One of these features is the Integrated Survival System and he made a couple of errors in his video that I would like to correct so that everyone understands how the system works. I personally think it is an ingenious system that works really well and the team that worked on it have put a lot of thought into it.

 

STAMINA

 

Stamina is represented by the blue bar and it is governed by the attribute of Agility. If you purchase ranks in agility your total possible stamina max will increase. At the beginning of the game you have 100 as your total possible max. Once you have progressed completely in Agility (if that is what you choose to do) you will be able to reach 200 as your total possible max.

 

Hunger is tied to stamina. As you get hungry your maximum stamina will go down and you will see a black area at the right end of the stamina bar grow as time goes on. Eating will decrease the black area and return you to your total possible maximum.

 

Thirst is tied to recovery. Whenever you do something strenuous you use up stamina and empty the bar until you reach zero and you will be unable to do anything requiring stamina such as running, chopping, etc. If you are well hydrated your stamina will refill to the current max (which could be lower than the end of the whole bar if you are hungry) pretty quickly. If you are thirsty your stamina will refill more slowly.

 

HEALTH

 

Health is represented by the red bar and it is governed by the attribute of Fortitude. If you purchase ranks in fortitude your total possible HP max will increase. At the beginning of the game you have 100 as your total possible max. Once you have progressed completely in Fortitude you will be able to reach 200 as your total possible max.

 

There are two types of damage you can take. "Temporary damage" causes your HP to drain away from your HP bar and if it reaches zero you die. This is the type of damage we are used to in A16 and previous. "Permanent damage" causes your HP max to go down creating a black area at the end of the HP bar. Every time you take temporary damage you also get some permanent damage.

 

Temporary damage recovers back to the current maximum over time. Hydration affects the recovery rate just as it does with stamina. Food can also give a buff that will help you recover temporary damage more quickly. However, food and water can only take your hp up to whatever its current maximum is which could be quite a bit lower than the highest possible max thanks to any permanent damage you have incurred.

 

Permanent damage can only be recovered using first aid items. Food will not reduce the black area at the end of your health bar like it will with your stamina bar.

 

In the recent video, Madmole was looking for food to eat in order to recover his lost HP. What he had forgotten was that because he was fully healed up to his current max the only way he would have been able to get that health max push back all the way to the end of the bar at that point would have been to use a medicated bandage or a first aid kit. Some comments have been criticizing the idea that health and water and food are tied up with each other and that is not the case.

 

Food--> Moves the current max stamina back to the end of the bar. Does help temporary damage recover back to the current max

Water--> Helps with recovery rates of stamina loss and temporary damage

First Aid--> Moves the current health max back to the end of the bar.

[DaVegaNL]

But we are still not able to see the amount of HP and stamina we have, correct? If so, why not?

[AiRJacobs]

I understand you are trying to explain this, but if the game was designed well, players wouldn't need an essay to understand two crucial core elements of the game they are playing. Health and Stamina should be extremely straight forward. The old system worked just fine and it was easy to understand.

[Jost Amman]

@Roland: thanks for the thorough explanation. :-]

[RestInPieces]

Seem pretty straightforward to me. They also seem intuitive but will have to test them in game to be able to tell.

 

I hate being negative again, but here we go... however, even if I didn't like wellness because of how little it made us care about it, from a first glance, it does seem it was replaced with an even more inconsequential aka "easy-mode"/flat system. I really hope less max health/stamina (and recovery rate) are not the only penalties of starvation, dehydration and injuries. That would make for a very flat survival game. I will also miss the more realistic buildup of wellness tied to your diet, instead of arbitrary points you can invest.

 

What about death Roland? I really hate watching vids, thanks for explaining the things you did.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@ Rest in Pieces

 

As long as you can not starve or dehydrate in this game the survial is a joke anyways. There is always enough to eat and drink everywhere, no matter how low you set the loot. Yucca, Snowberries, Corn, Lakes and small spots of water in the cities always give you enough. I have never struggled with food or drinking in this game no matter wich difficulty or loot percentage. Well besides my very first game, where i didn´t even know you need to eat.

 

The health/stamina system is only a drop of water on a hot stone. No matter how good or bad the system is.

 

Survival and Horde should be taken out of the games subtitle as long as they are just a joke.

[mr.devolver]

I understand you are trying to explain this, but if the game was designed well, players wouldn't need an essay to understand two crucial core elements of the game they are playing. Health and Stamina should be extremely straight forward. The old system worked just fine and it was easy to understand.

 

I kinda expect an essay explaining how much wrong your statement is now lol (not presenting my personal opinion here)

[Roland]

I understand you are trying to explain this, but if the game was designed well, players wouldn't need an essay to understand two crucial core elements of the game they are playing. Health and Stamina should be extremely straight forward. The old system worked just fine and it was easy to understand.

 

The long explanation wasn’t necessary to compensate for poor design. It was necessary to make up for a chronic and well-demonstrated lack of reading comprehension by some people....

 

Complicated =\= Bad design

You don’t like it =\= Bad design

[Roland]

I kinda expect an essay explaining how much wrong your statement is now lol (not presenting my personal opinion here)

 

Lol...you got me pegged

[Roland]

@ Rest in Pieces

 

As long as you can not starve or dehydrate in this game the survial is a joke anyways. There is always enough to eat and drink everywhere, no matter how low you set the loot. Yucca, Snowberries, Corn, Lakes and small spots of water in the cities always give you enough. I have never struggled with food or drinking in this game no matter wich difficulty or loot percentage. Well besides my very first game, where i didn´t even know you need to eat.

 

The health/stamina system is only a drop of water on a hot stone. No matter how good or bad the system is.

 

Survival and Horde should be taken out of the games subtitle as long as they are just a joke.

 

Agreed. But the vanilla game will probably never be as hardcore survival as we prefer. It will only be accomplished by modding the values.

 

Interesting that you didn’t know you were supposed to eat on your first play when back then we still had a distinct food bar on the screen.

[4sheetzngeegles]

Roland with all the major changes, and details that have gone into this alpha. Will they be updated in Gamepedia?

The last version update there is a16.2 b7. as far as changes.

[RestInPieces]

@ Rest in Pieces

 

As long as you can not starve or dehydrate in this game the survial is a joke anyways. There is always enough to eat and drink everywhere, no matter how low you set the loot. Yucca, Snowberries, Corn, Lakes and small spots of water in the cities always give you enough. I have never struggled with food or drinking in this game no matter wich difficulty or loot percentage. Well besides my very first game, where i didn´t even know you need to eat.

 

The health/stamina system is only a drop of water on a hot stone. No matter how good or bad the system is.

 

Survival and Horde should be taken out of the games subtitle as long as they are just a joke.

 

Indeed.

 

Agreed. But the vanilla game will probably never be as hardcore survival as we prefer. It will only be accomplished by modding the values.

 

Well, personal tastes aside, in my eyes it's not so much about the game being hardcore, it's about creating incentives/motives and engaging survival mechanics. The line between something half-baked that in the long run is slowly becoming a chore and something that is genuinely engaging is blurry. Many developers sacrifice complexity/consequences for easy-access/simplicity. In my experience, these games are short-lived. Others achieve both.

 

In that regard, this game is... weird. It does have a fair amount of complexity (for example when it comes to survival elements) but in many areas it seems to lack substance, at least for me. One of the reasons is what pApA^LeGBa mentioned.

 

Yes the modding potential is a huge bonus for a game, like for example in Bethesda's games, but you shouldn't as a developer and can't really expect the modding community to create these mechanics. Plus the vast majority of people getting a game will never bother to get into modding or even getting properly informed about it.

[mr.devolver]

The long explanation wasn’t necessary to compensate for poor design. It was necessary to make up for a chronic and well-demonstrated lack of reading comprehension by some people....

 

Complicated =\= Bad design

You don’t like it =\= Bad design

 

Maybe you didn't write it to compensate for poor design, but it certainly had something to do with the fact the design is complex and hard to understand and as such it's not the best design for new players. Heck, even old and long time players will have a hard time to get used to it and it's certainly not something people would be used to in games in general, but you know, it's kinda interesting to read how you twist one and the same thing differently depending on the situation to make it fit you better. When it was madmole who had no idea about how the system works, you wrote an essay explaining how he doesn't know because all developers have their own area of specialization and madmole doesn't necessarily need to know about how this part of new survival system works, but when it's an average Joe the regular player, it's a chronic and well-demonstrated lack of reading comprehension... Either way, writing an essay for people with chronic lack of reading comprehension in attempt to make them understand something is like trying to fix bad eyesight with a kitchen knife. For those with lack of imagination, just know that ain't gonna work...

 

Also while complicated may not be a bad design, it really depends on what kind of design it is and how much complicated the whole thing is because people are playing games for fun, they don't need "virtual reality" to get more chores, they usually get enough of them in real life.

 

As for the "You don't like it =\= Bad design", it really depends who is "You". If it's an individual then it's true. If it's majority then it's false.

[Jedo]

Many developers sacrifice complexity/consequences for easy-access/simplicity. In my experience, these games are short-lived. Others achieve both.

 

Maybe you didn't write it to compensate for poor design, but it certainly had something to do with the fact the design is complex and hard to understand and as such it's not the best design for new players.

 

These were funny comments to read side-by-side. Who gets to decide which is better? (Hint: It's not "the majority.")

[RestInPieces]

because people are playing games for fun, they don't need "virtual reality" to get more chores, they usually get enough of them in real life.

 

There's always mobile games for that. But seriously, caustic comments aside, fun is subjective. For example, I am not playing games to kill time and march through the game while hitting stuff. This is what I consider a chore. I play them because I love making choices, trying various strategies failing in the process, watching the results, trying to achieve something, using my brain etc.

 

These were funny comments to read side-by-side. Who gets to decide which is better? (Hint: It's not "the majority.")

 

Nope, it's not the majority indeed.

 

@Roland - I am still waiting for a reply about how death is handled

Does it still... reward you?

[asmosnuts]

Whats so hard about reading a few paragraphs that explain how the system works? Its hardly an essay and not exactly difficult to understand. The amount of complaining over a simple mechanic is ridiculous! This is why most devs dont get involved, they cant win either way in some peoples eyes and are just there to be trolled over every little thing.

If you actually read it very little has changed, its not hard to read nor understand and explains what it set out to explain.

Job done, move on, get over yourselves and let them concentrate on the game!

[RestInPieces]

Whats so hard about reading a few paragraphs that explain how the system works? Its hardly an essay and not exactly difficult to understand. The amount of complaining over a simple mechanic is ridiculous! This is why most devs dont get involved, they cant win either way in some peoples eyes and are just there to be trolled over every little thing.

If you actually read it very little has changed, its not hard to read nor understand and explains what it set out to explain.

 

Have to agree on that... The system is really simple, even simpler than the previous one in many regards.

[mr.devolver]

These were funny comments to read side-by-side. Who gets to decide which is better? (Hint: It's not "the majority.")

 

Well, my experience is different than the experience of the guy from the first quote, that's all I can say about it, so we either probably prefer different games or live in two different worlds. Complex design isn't necessarily bad, I even said that in the second part of my post, however if the game has a complex design, it should not be at expense of fun. New players need to feel that they are welcomed to learn the game design at their own pace and they should have fun doing so.

[RestInPieces]

Well, my experience is different than the experience of the guy from the first quote, that's all I can say about it, so we either probably prefer different games or live in two different worlds. Complex design isn't necessarily bad, I even said that in the second part of my post, however if the game has a complex design, it should not be at expense of fun. New players need to feel that they are welcomed to learn the game design at their own pace and they should have fun doing so.

 

There are a few issues with this conversation. As I said before fun is subjective because everyone has different tastes. Some enjoy games to chill after work, kill time and hit stuff, others enjoy them because they get to engage themselves in intricate systems, try strategies or achieve stuff. Being the guy from the first quote, I belong to the second category.

 

Complexity is also subjective, obviously, as many people in this thread don't consider the new mechanics complex. At any case, I advise that we take our time to see them in action and get used to them for a day or two before judging if they are overly complex or not. One thing we clearly disagree on, is that I believe that complexity should be never sacrificed for "easy access", while the opposite happening is not as bad. Achieving both is ideal.

[Cadamier]

Thanks Roland!

 

So water can heal you too?

 

Also - is it possible to have the 'non-usable' slots in the backpack 'invisible' so to speak until you actually purchase them?

[Viktoriusiii]

I kinda expect an essay explaining how much wrong your statement is now lol (not presenting my personal opinion here)

 

Well... I'll be your guest

 

A simple system is always great for a certain type of game.

If you want to play 5 minutes of candy crush, having to know 300 pages of candycrush wiki to beat level 1 is not how you need to design a game.

But this game is a way more nieche game.

It is survival. Everything in this game is (seemingly) working against you. Food and water, zombies, ressource scarcity, (other players if multiplayer)

NOTHING in this game should feel as if its a present. BUT it should also be something that you can make to work for you.

So if we take the two different aproaches we will see something:

 

A16:

max hp 250,

food 100%

hp recovery 0.5 per % food

So with 0 food you basically get 50hp back.

 

So there was no need for food and drink if you aren't hurt.

You could go 2-3 ingamedays without food and 1 day without water without any punishment. And even after you only got slight decreases on your wellness. But even if you "saved up" your food to heal lateron, you would still only get back a small amount of hp.

It made no real sense why you wouldn't regenerate slowly over time, but it was "easy to understand".

 

System now:

if you do not drink(regularly), you do not get stamina/hp back as fast limiting your exploration, harvest and fighting capability.

If you do not eat (regularly), you have less stamina/health, limiting your exploration, harvest and fighting capability.

 

BUT on the other hand, you can get hp back without having to have any food/medical supplies on you, the overall hp resored is also larger, BUT you are slightly punished for not beeing wellfed.

 

So now instead of trying to trick the system by downing 2 meatstews after each other and drinking 4 goldenrodteas and then not eating anything for days, you will have to regularly feed yourself and make the choice (if you have it) to take stuff with you to be able to explore/fight better or to have an extra slot open for other stuff.

 

 

tl;dr:

 

old system: easy, exploitative, unrewarding

new system: complex (but not impossible to understand), realistic, rewarding

 

Which one wins is personal choice. But I like non dumbed down games... so I love the new system.

[SylenThunder]

...

 

tl;dr:

 

old system: easy, exploitative, unrewarding

new system: complex (but not impossible to understand), realistic, rewarding

 

Which one wins is personal choice. But I like non dumbed down games... so I love the new system.

My feelings exactly.

[Gamida]

So to me the vanilla game should be an "all round game" that the casual user would play but it should be easy to mod the F out of it for other players.

I myself can only do minor changes to xml files and God help me if I try to mod the UI but am sure there will be mods I can add that others will so generously make and distribute.

So as long as there are modders and the ability to easily mod the game most of us should be good.

[DaVegaNL]

And I'm just here sitting and wondering why they would remove the actual amount of HP/Stamina from the HUD.

[canadianbluebeer]

Hmm, so like in Fallout 4, if you take radiation damage, your max HP goes down until you clear it.

 

In FO4 that's with Rad Away. In 7dtd it's a medkit/medical bandage.

 

That is just fine.