Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Guppycur]

Or the extended version "the boy who cried wolves are falling from the sky".

 

I may be combining too many things into one. Guppy is his own self-fulfilling fable of disgruntlement.

 

But it's still my favorite game, and I still spend 99% of my gaming time in 7days, so it's not disgruntlement as much as it is "passion".

 

I see what's stupid (health hit bars, leveled loot, no more 1 block crouching, lack of lean feature, console port, streamer pre-access, etc) and I say my peace.

[Tin]

But it's still my favorite game, and I still spend 99% of my gaming time in 7days, so it's not disgruntlement as much as it is "passion".

 

I see what's stupid (health hit bars, leveled loot, no more 1 block crouching, lack of lean feature, console port, streamer pre-access, etc) and I say my peace.

 

[art1336]

Trolland!

 

So i’m coming in late on the discussion but I really just stopped checking on development progress regularly since I don’t thunk this game will ever get finished.

...and that sentiment is well deserved after reading the original post. “Overhaul” the buff system, “Overhaul” the weapon system, “Overhaul”...

 

Overhaul? How about “finish” ANYTHING you EVER start? How many times have these things been overhauled already? Weapons, at least 3 times since A8 for example.

 

Great idea: how about you get a handle on the Attention Deficit Disorder and get the game running at a decent frame rate, stop stuff from randomly disappearing, crashes, lockups, add some content, and leave the major systems design alone?

 

In b4 Trolland gets 'im!

[Guppycur]

In b4 Trolland gets 'im!

 

Look, as many people as there are that feel this way, we can't deny their feelings; sure, they're wrong, but that they FEEL they are right does in fact say something about the communication. I don't know why MM is doing is social experiment, but if his customers genuinely feel like the game isn't going anywhere (and again, I DO know better), then it is something they should address with something other than an edit that says "No doom and gloom posts".

[The Gronk]

Horray - Finally modders have the means to undo any performance improvement of TFP with highly nested loops

 

Oh wait, you didn't list loops there.

 

But seriously: Hooray!! Is it a subset of C#? Or (I shudder to think about it) still encoded as xml? (http://conferences.idealliance.org/extreme/html/2004/Kepser01/EML2004Kepser01.html)

 

I'd be surprised if it was any more complicated than a basic C clone with memory management already sorted, the sort of thing you'd use to program an arduino. That would be more than enough for the purposes of modding.

 

I'm with you on the dislike of xml. I can do it but it's bloody awful to parse.

[Xtrakicking]

Look, as many people as there are that feel this way, we can't deny their feelings; sure, they're wrong, but that they FEEL they are right does in fact say something about the communication. I don't know why MM is doing is social experiment, but if his customers genuinely feel like the game isn't going anywhere (and again, I DO know better), then it is something they should address with something other than an edit that says "No doom and gloom posts".

 

It's ok if one feels like the game is going nowhere; what's not ok is to post angry and disrespectful comments on the forums without even actually giving out details on what your problem with the game is.

[Guppycur]

It's ok if one feels like the game is going nowhere; what's not ok is to post angry and disrespectful comments on the forums without even actually giving out details on what your problem with the game is.

 

A lot of people aren't able to articulate their frustrations online w/o resorting to tom foolery, but it doesn't mean they're not frustrated, and it doesn't mean their frustrations aren't valid (to them).

 

...and I think that 1) We owe it to them to help them see the light, and 2) The pimps should put a bit more effort in making people NOT feel like the game is abandonware... I mean sure, /we/ know that's far, far from the truth, but only because we try to know. Communication has always been a pimp weakness. Whether or not communication is important at this stage, well, I dunno, this is my first foray into the EA concept.

[Xtrakicking]

A lot of people aren't able to articulate their frustrations online w/o resorting to tom foolery, but it doesn't mean they're not frustrated, and it doesn't mean their frustrations aren't valid (to them).

 

...and I think that 1) We owe it to them to help them see the light, and 2) The pimps should put a bit more effort in making people NOT feel like the game is abandonware... I mean sure, /we/ know that's far, far from the truth, but only because we try to know. Communication has always been a pimp weakness. Whether or not communication is important at this stage, well, I dunno, this is my first foray into the EA concept.

 

I'm just saying that exposing your concerns in such manner is not gonna make the devs (or anyone for that matter) feel like helping them, because it shouldn't.

 

The pimps could basically stay completely silent about what they're doing next and never say a word besides one or two update blogs here and there, then one day release the update without even warning anyone just like many other devs out there. I know they've been distant and less communicative than normal in this new A17, but they still release videos and post information about everything that's being worked on in the update.

 

Lastly, addressing your 2nd point, it doesn't matter what the pimps do. There's always gonna be someone who will never be happy with the game's progress or direction and will post their frustration in the forums. Now, in my opinion the only way for their concerns to actually be heard is to at least explain them properly.

[dietter]

@Kinyajuu

 

Thanks for you and everyone for their hard work on this game. all ready an alltime favorite and you guys just keep making it better! Have a great year!

[Tin]

We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up)

 

 

 

The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other.

 

The overhaul process (Items):

What happened is that in A17 we were bringing in a better loot loop in that even as a level 1 you'll be able to find a full gun instead of part of one. It won't have very good stats but will likely come with a mod or attachment of some sort. Removing a mod has a chance to break the weapon where an attachment can be put in and taken out at will. This changed the items to only really need 6 tiers. The tiny variations in value weren't fun and were pure vertical progression.

 

This required us to be able to still use a system similar to the old one that would allow modification of values. Like the parts mods also will modify values on the item they live in. Adding this in required me to build a new central class to process the modifier values.

 

The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons):

Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values.

 

The overhaul process (Progression):

With the new system we wanted to be able to have chunkier skills and perks and less of the incremental gains. With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting. While testing I noticed the skills system made tons of garbage and we don't want that so I went in and redid it to be lightweight and to not make garbage to clean up.

 

The overhaul process (Buffs):

Finally the buffs, these guys have timers. Similar to progression, very similar. So I designed a system that was nearly identical to the new progression system. This keeps it lightweight, only storing the timer and a pointer to the single instance of that buff so there is only ever one instance of the heavy data needed. With the buffs we found that actions also needed fired off for particle effects so I started adding an action system. Also at the same time it was discovered that there would need to be requirements to keep buffs from firing something too often or to clean up after itself on login/logout. The need for this kind of cleanup added the need for "events" these started out as simply onBuffStart, onBuffUpdate, and onBuffEnd so we could do a few things but has now grown to include everything from gaining xp to placing a block.

 

The overhaul process(Overall):

So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support.

 

So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it.

 

/data_dump

 

Thank you for the run down! Can't wait!

"Overhaul" the new "TM" for 2018 get it while it's hot!

[Guppycur]

I'm just saying that exposing your concerns in such manner is not gonna make the devs (or anyone for that matter) feel like helping them, because it shouldn't.

 

The pimps could basically stay completely silent about what they're doing next and never say a word besides one or two update blogs here and there, then one day release the update without even warning anyone just like many other devs out there. I know they've been distant and less communicative than normal in this new A17, but they still release videos and post information about everything that's being worked on in the update.

 

Lastly, addressing your 2nd point, it doesn't matter what the pimps do. There's always gonna be someone who will never be happy with the game's progress or direction and will post their frustration in the forums. Now, in my opinion the only way for their concerns to actually be heard is to at least explain them properly.

 

Oh I don't disagree that all, that "such a manner" is non productive, just that it's there and should be addressed.

[Guppycur]

@stuff that Kin said

 

Yeh, to all that. =)

[Xtrakicking]

Oh I don't disagree that all, that "such a manner" is non productive, just that it's there and should be addressed.

 

But then more people would start posting their concerns in a non productive way, which isn't fair for the ones who do it properly.

[Maharin]

We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up)

 

 

 

The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other.

 

<snip>

 

/data_dump

 

A very cleverly disguised delay tactic, indeed!

 

I kid. Thanks for the update!

[Utakubeta]

The game, as always, continues to get more and more beautiful with every alpha.

I was not a fan of purchasing skill blocks for crafting at first, but it has grown on me.

I played a mod where everything was set back to how it was and... yeah I definitely don't miss grinding as much as I thought I had.

Nostalgia goggles are a powerful thing.

 

That said, I am tenious about ALL the chamges being made, but I will be more patient this time as the previous changes, after time to adjust, have proven to be worth it.

Changing weapons to be set items with upgrades as opposed to grabbing a part here n there is, honestly, a change I DO NOT MIND!

I play a lot of fallout and I definately prefer to harvest the upgrades than to only get a piece here n there.

 

THAT SAID....

I think being able to make something like the pipe pistols in fallout 4 in 7 Days makes sense. a low-quality patchwork gun made from wood, pipes and screws makes sense in a post apocalyptic world.

There could be two tiers, or ever a skill set - McGuyver weapons - that allow you to make crappy guns. crappy but still a gun.

Any idiot can use a gun, but it takes far more skill to use a bow.

 

Just a thought perhaps for modders.

I am also very grateful for the update, even if it's just back end stuff, it's nice to know.

I think it's safe to say we all love this game, we gripe because we care because we want it to be even better!

[The Gronk]

I think being able to make something like the pipe pistols in fallout 4 in 7 Days makes sense. a low-quality patchwork gun made from wood, pipes and screws makes sense in a post apocalyptic world.

There could be two tiers, or ever a skill set - McGuyver weapons - that allow you to make crappy guns. crappy but still a gun.

Any idiot can use a gun, but it takes far more skill to use a bow.

 

The framework for that is already in with the blunderbuss. Making a muzzle-loader would be far simpler than trying to hand craft the receiver (possibly the right term for that bit of a bang-stick) of a fully-automatic weapon, as you say, tiered weapon crafting wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Haidrgna]

We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up)

 

 

 

The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other.

 

The overhaul process (Items):

What happened is that in A17 we were bringing in a better loot loop in that even as a level 1 you'll be able to find a full gun instead of part of one. It won't have very good stats but will likely come with a mod or attachment of some sort. Removing a mod has a chance to break the weapon where an attachment can be put in and taken out at will. This changed the items to only really need 6 tiers. The tiny variations in value weren't fun and were pure vertical progression.

 

This required us to be able to still use a system similar to the old one that would allow modification of values. Like the parts mods also will modify values on the item they live in. Adding this in required me to build a new central class to process the modifier values.

 

The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons):

Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values.

 

The overhaul process (Progression):

With the new system we wanted to be able to have chunkier skills and perks and less of the incremental gains. With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting. While testing I noticed the skills system made tons of garbage and we don't want that so I went in and redid it to be lightweight and to not make garbage to clean up.

 

The overhaul process (Buffs):

Finally the buffs, these guys have timers. Similar to progression, very similar. So I designed a system that was nearly identical to the new progression system. This keeps it lightweight, only storing the timer and a pointer to the single instance of that buff so there is only ever one instance of the heavy data needed. With the buffs we found that actions also needed fired off for particle effects so I started adding an action system. Also at the same time it was discovered that there would need to be requirements to keep buffs from firing something too often or to clean up after itself on login/logout. The need for this kind of cleanup added the need for "events" these started out as simply onBuffStart, onBuffUpdate, and onBuffEnd so we could do a few things but has now grown to include everything from gaining xp to placing a block.

 

The overhaul process(Overall):

So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support.

 

So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it.

 

/data_dump

 

This sounds wonderful and I fully agree that sometimes you just need to take a few steps back and start from scratch again applying all you have learned and make it better. This sounds to me that it has not only gotten better but also leaner and to boot will give the developers and modders more options. I am just hoping the xmls are not totally changed hehe, but I am guessing we can forget any backwards compatibilty on blocks.xml, items.xml, buffs.xml and progression.xml at least, and possible more xmls that will also call upon these. But that the price of progress I guess

[Benjiro]

The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons):

Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values.

 

Funny thing ... I almost never used weapons in this game beyond the bow/crossbow and clubs. Then again, i get bored with the content after 7 or 14 days in-game.

 

The artificial limitations make it feel out if place.

 

The vanilla content is lacking. Mods that add content, keep running into performance issues because for some god awful reason the game loads the massive XML files for each item, making any mods that add a lot of content lag in the menu's.

 

There are a lot of good mods out there and where i am sure the developers will be more then happy to contribute code and content to the game for free but it feels like the developers never want to accept this. And take notice how a lot of the mods come down to adding more content, making longer game play, balancing the developers there changes ...

 

Instead of big changes that force every mod author again to rewrite there mods almost from zero with every alpha update ( what becomes tiring for those people ), how about stabilizing the game and using extended content. Nobody asked to remove the gun parts and yet here we are again. Gun modifiers can have been added on top.

 

Sorry to sound dramatic but it feels always like one step forwards and two step backwards when it comes down to the game content / possibilities. As the author of the Ravenhearst mod said (paraphrased): If you do not give people a reason to loot buildings, they never leave there base.

 

Ravenhearst, True survival, etc all those mods add more content with more steps. It means you pick more the skills that matter. A bigger inventory also helps with more content. You feel more logic in the game. Why can a stone arrow only need a stone + wood + feather? It makes no sense... Stone arrow = stick + feather + stone arrow head. Check. The vanilla game so simplifies everything its annoying.

 

The game loot is simply useless. It never feels like you get anything worthwhile beyond the first 2 or 3 days from looting. Electricity is so limited compared to what the mods did in the past. Farming the same. Loot content, gain. There is simply no mid or end content, the moment you peak past the vale and realize it, it becomes a boring game.

 

Why not have loot that has use? Put in a LOT of random loot.

 

Dolls -> scrap plastic.

Clothing -> Cloth or leather strips ( leader jacket ) or plastic strips ( plastic raincoat )...

Cabinets -> Forks, knifes, Spoons -> scrap iron, wood spoons -> wood, Pans and cooking pots -> iron ...

 

Now everything one loots in a object is at best a mix of 10 items and its just silly.

 

Reduce the iron from stones! Make underground digging harder! People will loot more as results, go more outside. They will break down houses because of the scraps. Now everybody becomes a frigging surface or underground miner in the end because its the most lazy and easy way.

 

Scrap items need more then one return type. Leader jacket gives leader strips and 1 iron ( zipper )... Scrap in the field give you less resources then at home with tools. Give people more inventory space to compensate... Make them hunt and feel like the building and POIs are worth something beyond the first few days.

 

This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before.

 

No offence but adding gun modifiers is not going to solve the issue of lacking content, especially when you just removed one mechanism to add a new one. 1 + 0 = 1 ...

 

 

The Behemoth got removed ... replace it with a mechanic with a sled hammer ( see Ravenhearst again ) that is great at knocking down buildings and has massive HP.

 

Cooking skills are useless... there is no content again. Armor making skills, who cares ... clothing skills again ... When the game is about the finding, looting, scrapping content and then creating better armor, clothing, weapons it can become a slower and move active game. But currently everybody ends up with using maybe 5 skills in total that they focus upon because those are the money makers, the rest is ...

 

The entire games content system is so cut down ...

 

Well, this is my monthly rant. The game has so much possibilities thanks to the game engine but it feels so wasted in the actual content.

[chaosterone]

Huh.....Guppy starts talking about the Pimps communicating better, and "POOF!", here's Kinyaju with a great rundown on development.

 

Thanks for the info Kinyajuu!

 

And, well, thanks to you, too Guppy (in a creepy sort of way)!

[Gazz]

THAT SAID....

I think being able to make something like the pipe pistols in fallout 4 in 7 Days makes sense. a low-quality patchwork gun made from wood, pipes and screws makes sense in a post apocalyptic world.

There could be two tiers, or ever a skill set - McGuyver weapons - that allow you to make crappy guns. crappy but still a gun.

Gun crafting is totally doable now that the "cool parts" are to be found and added later.

 

If you want to make crafted guns even worse than tier 1 you'd have to add a "You Suck" mod to it.

We're still tinkering with details like that - and debugging the new systems.

 

A completely new model just to have an even worse gun? I don't see this happening.

 

 

I am just hoping the xmls are not totally changed hehe, but I am guessing we can forget any backwards compatibilty on blocks.xml, items.xml, buffs.xml and progression.xml at least, and possible more xmls that will also call upon these. But that the price of progress I guess

Hah! Fat chance.

Buffs/progression are essentially empty at this time and will be rewritten...

[Aldranon]

So, leveled loot, but not as extreme as A16? I would prefer some areas have higher leveled loot because of strong monsters or extremely hostile environment. Was this being done or am I remembering forum people just throwing out ideas?

 

If I read firearms correctly, everything has a spread where the bullet will hit from the point you were aiming at when you pulled the trigger? Some kind of gun sway would be better, I guess its simulating gun sway.

 

That's my two cents.

[Maharin]

Can we bring back sticks and add stick mods?

[Aldranon]

This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before.

 

If there could be a percent chance that each special POI could have a roaming boss then that might be better. But if Threat > Loot then I for one wouldn't bother ether. Dead is dead play style is different than arcade.

[Guppycur]

 

Funny thing ... I almost never used weapons in this game beyond the bow/crossbow and clubs. Then again, i get bored with the content after 7 or 14 days in-game.

 

The artificial limitations make it feel out if place.

 

The vanilla content is lacking. Mods that add content, keep running into performance issues because for some god awful reason the game loads the massive XML files for each item, making any mods that add a lot of content lag in the menu's.

 

There are a lot of good mods out there and where i am sure the developers will be more then happy to contribute code and content to the game for free but it feels like the developers never want to accept this. And take notice how a lot of the mods come down to adding more content, making longer game play, balancing the developers there changes ...

 

Instead of big changes that force every mod author again to rewrite there mods almost from zero with every alpha update ( what becomes tiring for those people ), how about stabilizing the game and using extended content. Nobody asked to remove the gun parts and yet here we are again. Gun modifiers can have been added on top.

 

Sorry to sound dramatic but it feels always like one step forwards and two step backwards when it comes down to the game content / possibilities. As the author of the Ravenhearst mod said (paraphrased): If you do not give people a reason to loot buildings, they never leave there base.

 

Ravenhearst, True survival, etc all those mods add more content with more steps. It means you pick more the skills that matter. A bigger inventory also helps with more content. You feel more logic in the game. Why can a stone arrow only need a stone + wood + feather? It makes no sense... Stone arrow = stick + feather + stone arrow head. Check. The vanilla game so simplifies everything its annoying.

 

The game loot is simply useless. It never feels like you get anything worthwhile beyond the first 2 or 3 days from looting. Electricity is so limited compared to what the mods did in the past. Farming the same. Loot content, gain. There is simply no mid or end content, the moment you peak past the vale and realize it, it becomes a boring game.

 

Why not have loot that has use? Put in a LOT of random loot.

 

Dolls -> scrap plastic.

Clothing -> Cloth or leather strips ( leader jacket ) or plastic strips ( plastic raincoat )...

Cabinets -> Forks, knifes, Spoons -> scrap iron, wood spoons -> wood, Pans and cooking pots -> iron ...

 

Now everything one loots in a object is at best a mix of 10 items and its just silly.

 

Reduce the iron from stones! Make underground digging harder! People will loot more as results, go more outside. They will break down houses because of the scraps. Now everybody becomes a frigging surface or underground miner in the end because its the most lazy and easy way.

 

Scrap items need more then one return type. Leader jacket gives leader strips and 1 iron ( zipper )... Scrap in the field give you less resources then at home with tools. Give people more inventory space to compensate... Make them hunt and feel like the building and POIs are worth something beyond the first few days.

 

This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before.

 

No offence but adding gun modifiers is not going to solve the issue of lacking content, especially when you just removed one mechanism to add a new one. 1 + 0 = 1 ...

 

 

The Behemoth got removed ... replace it with a mechanic with a sled hammer ( see Ravenhearst again ) that is great at knocking down buildings and has massive HP.

 

Cooking skills are useless... there is no content again. Armor making skills, who cares ... clothing skills again ... When the game is about the finding, looting, scrapping content and then creating better armor, clothing, weapons it can become a slower and move active game. But currently everybody ends up with using maybe 5 skills in total that they focus upon because those are the money makers, the rest is ...

 

The entire games content system is so cut down ...

 

Well, this is my monthly rant. The game has so much possibilities thanks to the game engine but it feels so wasted in the actual content.

 

 

 

Sorry, but I'm in total disagreement here... Extending modding support to an unfinished product is a huge waste of time.

 

Yes, it's harder on modders... But that's they price they/we pay for getting a foot in the door before the door is even finished.

[Maharin]

Because of the buff changes and weapon changes I'm betting loot distribution could be significantly improved as well? So maybe bosses drop better loot than normal zombies, some POI's give better loot than others, that sort of thing? Pure random isn't so exciting after a while.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but I'm in total disagreement here... Extending modding support to an unfinished product is a huge waste of time.

 

Yes, it's harder on modders... But that's they price they/we pay for getting a foot in the door before the door is even finished.

 

Besides... it sure beats having to put your foot THROUGH the door.