Gamida Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Huh.....Guppy starts talking about the Pimps communicating better, and "POOF!", here's Kinyaju with a great rundown on development. Thanks for the info Kinyajuu! And, well, thanks to you, too Guppy (in a creepy sort of way)! I noticed that too....I never saw anyone post his name and he showed up...I am beginning to think he can actually come in here whenever he wants and not have to be summoned... (Am talking about Kinyajuu...you don't have to mention guppys name...he just shows up everytime there is a new post...by anyone....anywhere.....anytime...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrionLord Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Pure random isn't so exciting after a while. Oh come now! I love having a 600 quality Rocket Launcher and 60 rockets drop before I can even craft a hunting knife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzysfang Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up) The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other. The overhaul process (Items): What happened is that in A17 we were bringing in a better loot loop in that even as a level 1 you'll be able to find a full gun instead of part of one. It won't have very good stats but will likely come with a mod or attachment of some sort. Removing a mod has a chance to break the weapon where an attachment can be put in and taken out at will. This changed the items to only really need 6 tiers. The tiny variations in value weren't fun and were pure vertical progression. This required us to be able to still use a system similar to the old one that would allow modification of values. Like the parts mods also will modify values on the item they live in. Adding this in required me to build a new central class to process the modifier values. The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons): Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values. The overhaul process (Progression): With the new system we wanted to be able to have chunkier skills and perks and less of the incremental gains. With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting. While testing I noticed the skills system made tons of garbage and we don't want that so I went in and redid it to be lightweight and to not make garbage to clean up. The overhaul process (Buffs): Finally the buffs, these guys have timers. Similar to progression, very similar. So I designed a system that was nearly identical to the new progression system. This keeps it lightweight, only storing the timer and a pointer to the single instance of that buff so there is only ever one instance of the heavy data needed. With the buffs we found that actions also needed fired off for particle effects so I started adding an action system. Also at the same time it was discovered that there would need to be requirements to keep buffs from firing something too often or to clean up after itself on login/logout. The need for this kind of cleanup added the need for "events" these started out as simply onBuffStart, onBuffUpdate, and onBuffEnd so we could do a few things but has now grown to include everything from gaining xp to placing a block. The overhaul process(Overall): So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support. So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it. /data_dump Well thankyou sir and Happy new year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrionLord Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 ...With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting... Does this mean breaking our legs or getting dysentery will affect our progression? Or does it mean by strength training too much we might throw our back out and lower our attack speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janna3921 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up) The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other. So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support. So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it. /data_dump Kinyajuu, Thank you for taking the time to explain and for all the hard work you have done from day one to present. Pass the thank you to all the others also, please. I know that lots of times we get pissy here and don't express our appreciation like we should, so a heartfelt thank you, a late wish for a great year ahead for you and everyone else who is working on this game; not just in the game area, but in your lives outside of work. I have remarked here and elsewhere that there have been areas lacking, but with the new people, the continued commitment of previous devs and others on the team, I know this game will be finished, and I have more faith that it will be a fantastic game. I think it is the lack of knowing what is going on that has effected many who play the game and are not part of the forum. They come here, wanting to express their frustration, doing so in a rude manner that just makes things worse for them and frustrating to you and the others who are working so hard to get the game ready for gold. Thanks for the hard work and for taking time to share with us what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SylenThunder Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Sorry, but I'm in total disagreement here... Extending modding support to an unfinished product is a huge waste of time. Yes, it's harder on modders... But that's they price they/we pay for getting a foot in the door before the door is even finished. On this note, I love it when I have to completely redesign my mods for a new update. It always brings about new ideas and changes. Sometimes it leads me off down a different path entirely and I come up with something completely new. I won't deny it's hard on us though. Sometimes I'll spend the first couple of weeks after an update doing nothing but looking at three screens full of xml data. I have less free time now, so that just means it's longer until my players get the mods they want on my servers. Which is fine, since I'll let them play in Vanilla with CM until I get it done and re-wipe the servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaSyt Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Okay TFP... This overhauled buff system and overhauled ranged weapon system, the mocap for looking up and down, the cool group quests, the health bar, and the new ragdoll. You can show us the Bandits and NPCs working now. What else is there to do to them if not? Are you giving them the AI and pathing of the Predator? You getting Troy Baker in there to finish all the voice acting? Making a complex faction system similar to a bunch of college kids on a reality contest show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiral Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Funny thing ... I almost never used weapons in this game beyond the bow/crossbow and clubs. Then again, i get bored with the content after 7 or 14 days in-game. The artificial limitations make it feel out if place. The vanilla content is lacking. Mods that add content, keep running into performance issues because for some god awful reason the game loads the massive XML files for each item, making any mods that add a lot of content lag in the menu's. There are a lot of good mods out there and where i am sure the developers will be more then happy to contribute code and content to the game for free but it feels like the developers never want to accept this. And take notice how a lot of the mods come down to adding more content, making longer game play, balancing the developers there changes ... Instead of big changes that force every mod author again to rewrite there mods almost from zero with every alpha update ( what becomes tiring for those people ), how about stabilizing the game and using extended content. Nobody asked to remove the gun parts and yet here we are again. Gun modifiers can have been added on top. Sorry to sound dramatic but it feels always like one step forwards and two step backwards when it comes down to the game content / possibilities. As the author of the Ravenhearst mod said (paraphrased): If you do not give people a reason to loot buildings, they never leave there base. Ravenhearst, True survival, etc all those mods add more content with more steps. It means you pick more the skills that matter. A bigger inventory also helps with more content. You feel more logic in the game. Why can a stone arrow only need a stone + wood + feather? It makes no sense... Stone arrow = stick + feather + stone arrow head. Check. The vanilla game so simplifies everything its annoying. The game loot is simply useless. It never feels like you get anything worthwhile beyond the first 2 or 3 days from looting. Electricity is so limited compared to what the mods did in the past. Farming the same. Loot content, gain. There is simply no mid or end content, the moment you peak past the vale and realize it, it becomes a boring game. Why not have loot that has use? Put in a LOT of random loot. Dolls -> scrap plastic. Clothing -> Cloth or leather strips ( leader jacket ) or plastic strips ( plastic raincoat )... Cabinets -> Forks, knifes, Spoons -> scrap iron, wood spoons -> wood, Pans and cooking pots -> iron ... Now everything one loots in a object is at best a mix of 10 items and its just silly. Reduce the iron from stones! Make underground digging harder! People will loot more as results, go more outside. They will break down houses because of the scraps. Now everybody becomes a frigging surface or underground miner in the end because its the most lazy and easy way. Scrap items need more then one return type. Leader jacket gives leader strips and 1 iron ( zipper )... Scrap in the field give you less resources then at home with tools. Give people more inventory space to compensate... Make them hunt and feel like the building and POIs are worth something beyond the first few days. This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before. No offence but adding gun modifiers is not going to solve the issue of lacking content, especially when you just removed one mechanism to add a new one. 1 + 0 = 1 ... The Behemoth got removed ... replace it with a mechanic with a sled hammer ( see Ravenhearst again ) that is great at knocking down buildings and has massive HP. Cooking skills are useless... there is no content again. Armor making skills, who cares ... clothing skills again ... When the game is about the finding, looting, scrapping content and then creating better armor, clothing, weapons it can become a slower and move active game. But currently everybody ends up with using maybe 5 skills in total that they focus upon because those are the money makers, the rest is ... The entire games content system is so cut down ... Well, this is my monthly rant. The game has so much possibilities thanks to the game engine but it feels so wasted in the actual content. Things need to change it may seem like a hassle for modders, however the way things are being done now is to ensure a system that wont be hard coded and be flexible for modders and for the pimps to add new content in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiral Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Okay TFP... This overhauled buff system and overhauled ranged weapon system, the mocap for looking up and down, the cool group quests, the health bar, and the new ragdoll. You can show us the Bandits and NPCs working now. What else is there to do to them if not? Are you giving them the AI and pathing of the Predator? You getting Troy Baker in there to finish all the voice acting? Making a complex faction system similar to a bunch of college kids on a reality contest show? I think the issue with bandits and npc's is the amount of resources required, its the same deal with animal farms its just not possible for the server to handle that many npc's at once if they keep farming them like minecraft. I think they would need to improve the performance per zombie/npc before adding them into the game and having them roam around because the game is voxel based, AI has to be rather taxing to be able to complete task intelligently with a ever changing environment, which in terns take alot of resources. I think the pimps tried to help this by implementing the breadcrumb system but that has been delayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 It's almost like I read the forums regularly. But... But... Devs don't listen, and they sure don't read our feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I think the issue with bandits and npc's is the amount of resources required, its the same deal with animal farms its just not possible for the server to handle that many npc's at once if they keep farming them like minecraft. I think they would need to improve the performance per zombie/npc before adding them into the game and having them roam around because the game is voxel based, AI has to be rather taxing to be able to complete task intelligently with a ever changing environment, which in terns take alot of resources. I think the pimps tried to help this by implementing the breadcrumb system but that has been delayed. The last I remember hearing all Z's were to be tracked individually in the metadata allowing for persistent hordes although this is likely to be a "light" version of the Z data I don't think that the number of NPC's is that much of an issue unless they're rendered in the local area. My guess for farming would be that they want the player to leave their base and actually go out hunting. There are plenty of ways to do animal farming without breaking the computer, how much AI does a chicken actually need? Unless TFP are actually changing the current pathfinding algorithm the only real work to do on bandits is mecanim animation and military tactics meta-behavior, the bandits really should work as a team if they're to be any sort of challenge. That being said, even that is a lot of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaSyt Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Funny thing ... I almost never used weapons in this game beyond the bow/crossbow and clubs. Then again, i get bored with the content after 7 or 14 days in-game. What do you mean by content exactly? Just because you don't use the guns doesn't mean everyone else doesn't enjoy them. You seem to be limiting your self then complain about not having enough choices. The vanilla content is lacking. Mods that add content, keep running into performance issues because for some god awful reason the game loads the massive XML files for each item, making any mods that add a lot of content lag in the menu's. Adding a bunch of new "content" to a game makes it run slower. Do you want the game to have more "content" or to run better? There are a lot of good mods out there and where i am sure the developers will be more then happy to contribute code and content to the game for free but it feels like the developers never want to accept this. And take notice how a lot of the mods come down to adding more content, making longer game play, balancing the developers there changes ... TFP have expressed that they have their own vision for the game. And that is okay. Instead of big changes that force every mod author again to rewrite there mods almost from zero with every alpha update ( what becomes tiring for those people ), how about stabilizing the game and using extended content. Nobody asked to remove the gun parts and yet here we are again. Gun modifiers can have been added on top. Alpha is for adding content, Beta is for stabilizing. They are removing gun parts and replacing them with gun attachments. I kinda did ask for this in a pimp dreams thread. Sorry to sound dramatic but it feels always like one step forwards and two step backwards when it comes down to the game content / possibilities. As the author of the Ravenhearst mod said (paraphrased): If you do not give people a reason to loot buildings, they never leave there base. Again what do you mean by content? How are any of the things on the A17 Features List not content? They are adding more dungeon crawler POIs with bosses and quest. How do that not give someone a reason to loot? Why can a stone arrow only need a stone + wood + feather? It makes no sense... Stone arrow = stick + feather + stone arrow head. Check. The vanilla game so simplifies everything its annoying. It doesn't need to be that complex. It's a game. Also adding more things like sticks and arrowheads slows the game down when it doesn't need to. The game loot is simply useless. It never feels like you get anything worthwhile beyond the first 2 or 3 days from looting. Electricity is so limited compared to what the mods did in the past. Farming the same. Loot content, gain. There is simply no mid or end content, the moment you peak past the vale and realize it, it becomes a boring game. I think you are exaggerating a little there. I always feel there is better loot to look for or at lest more of it like ammo. Now you are just using the word "content" as a filler word. I have no idea what that last sentence is suppose to mean. Why not have loot that has use? Put in a LOT of random loot. Dolls -> scrap plastic. Clothing -> Cloth or leather strips ( leader jacket ) or plastic strips ( plastic raincoat )... Cabinets -> Forks, knifes, Spoons -> scrap iron, wood spoons -> wood, Pans and cooking pots -> iron ... That sounds like unnecessary filler. Again it would slow the game down. All the loot in the game now does have a use. Reduce the iron from stones! Make underground digging harder! People will loot more as results, go more outside. They will break down houses because of the scraps. Now everybody becomes a frigging surface or underground miner in the end because its the most lazy and easy way. Looting doesn't have to be the main or only thing to do in this game. I mostly mine to get Nitrite Powder and Lead. It doesn't seem lazy when it's hard to find. Give people more inventory space to compensate... Make them hunt and feel like the building and POIs are worth something beyond the first few days. I would like more inventory space, but it would not make someone hunt more. It would be less because they don't have to go to their base and drop stuff off as often. The towers can be three to four trips. This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before. You want people to have a reason to go to POIs but you don't like them to take long at the POIs or have difficulty? What do you want for end content, a shiny new car... oh wait those will be in A17. No offence but adding gun modifiers is not going to solve the issue of lacking content, especially when you just removed one mechanism to add a new one. 1 + 0 = 1 ... They are replacing the gun parts that didn't seem like they did anything, for gun attachments which will clearly do something. Would you rather have 0 + 0 = 0? The Behemoth got removed ... replace it with a mechanic with a sled hammer ( see Ravenhearst again ) that is great at knocking down buildings and has massive HP. They are removing the Behemoth because it didn't fit or work well into the environment. They are going to have more man size bosses. Cooking skills are useless... there is no content again. Armor making skills, who cares ... clothing skills again ... When the game is about the finding, looting, scrapping content and then creating better armor, clothing, weapons it can become a slower and move active game. But currently everybody ends up with using maybe 5 skills in total that they focus upon because those are the money makers, the rest is ... I like the cooking system. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CONTENT!.....Oh I see, you seem really fixated on loot, and seem think this is Borderlands. I like Borderlands, one of my fav games, but this is a zombie survival crafting game. It's gonna have cooking and armor crafting. If you don't like it then there's Borderlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Things need to change it may seem like a hassle for modders, however the way things are being done now is to ensure a system that wont be hard coded and be flexible for modders and for the pimps to add new content in the future. Modders aren't complaining. You guys may get the pre-built and glued-together LEGO castle. They are getting the box of LEGOS it was built from. And I see Kinyajuu is still using this fake old profile picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Man Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up) The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other. The overhaul process (Items): What happened is that in A17 we were bringing in a better loot loop in that even as a level 1 you'll be able to find a full gun instead of part of one. It won't have very good stats but will likely come with a mod or attachment of some sort. Removing a mod has a chance to break the weapon where an attachment can be put in and taken out at will. This changed the items to only really need 6 tiers. The tiny variations in value weren't fun and were pure vertical progression. This required us to be able to still use a system similar to the old one that would allow modification of values. Like the parts mods also will modify values on the item they live in. Adding this in required me to build a new central class to process the modifier values. The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons): Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values. The overhaul process (Progression): With the new system we wanted to be able to have chunkier skills and perks and less of the incremental gains. With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting. While testing I noticed the skills system made tons of garbage and we don't want that so I went in and redid it to be lightweight and to not make garbage to clean up. The overhaul process (Buffs): Finally the buffs, these guys have timers. Similar to progression, very similar. So I designed a system that was nearly identical to the new progression system. This keeps it lightweight, only storing the timer and a pointer to the single instance of that buff so there is only ever one instance of the heavy data needed. With the buffs we found that actions also needed fired off for particle effects so I started adding an action system. Also at the same time it was discovered that there would need to be requirements to keep buffs from firing something too often or to clean up after itself on login/logout. The need for this kind of cleanup added the need for "events" these started out as simply onBuffStart, onBuffUpdate, and onBuffEnd so we could do a few things but has now grown to include everything from gaining xp to placing a block. The overhaul process(Overall): So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support. So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it. /data_dump Sounds like a great optimization plan! Info. Like this gets me excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaSyt Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I think the issue with bandits and npc's is the amount of resources required, its the same deal with animal farms its just not possible for the server to handle that many npc's at once if they keep farming them like minecraft. I think they would need to improve the performance per zombie/npc before adding them into the game and having them roam around because the game is voxel based, AI has to be rather taxing to be able to complete task intelligently with a ever changing environment, which in terns take alot of resources. I think the pimps tried to help this by implementing the breadcrumb system but that has been delayed. Ah that makes sense. I have played with the modded bandits and NPCs but they are basically a turret with legs. It seems like they are streamlining a lot of these processes to make this happen tho. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayaholic Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 @Kinyajuu: Thank you and TFPs. You guys are working hard and it shows. I appreciate the update. This is/was my 1st EA game that seems that it is for sure going to be finished. Another game that I liked was never finished, at least the Devs told us so, the least that they could do. I have and still will continue to play 7dtd. One of my fav games. Again thank you and TFPs. P.S. Make the HP bar optional. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stallionsden Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I noticed that too....I never saw anyone post his name and he showed up...I am beginning to think he can actually come in here whenever he wants and not have to be summoned... (Am talking about Kinyajuu...you don't have to mention guppys name...he just shows up everytime there is a new post...by anyone....anywhere.....anytime...) Guppy can hear his named being mentioned while he sleeps thru a tornado whilst his neighbour's are banging at the door asking to be let in lol..... Just the slight hedence to his name or his server or mods he a comes a running lol.... :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Guppy can hear his named being mentioned while he sleeps thru a tornado whilst his neighbour's are banging at the door asking to be let in lol..... Just the slight hedence to his name or his server or mods he a comes a running lol.... :-P Please excuse the rep's typo. Dunno what happened; some residual gusts from the tornado musta moved my fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamida Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 It's almost like I read the forums regularly. could it be? Naw, that can't be it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 2) The pimps should put a bit more effort in making people NOT feel like the game is abandonware... I mean sure, /we/ know that's far, far from the truth, but only because we try to know. How do you tell a user with no programming experience that programming is not like in the movies, when he suspects you are trying to make excuses? His own knowledge doesn't help him in assessing the information, other posters on the forum are "fanboys" to him and most likely he already heard about at least one early access failure to fear the worst. (After I wrote above, I remembered the other EA-game I'm following (Factorio) which actually seems to have solved that problem: They post an article called "Friday Facts" every Friday in which they really talk about high concepts and as well as programming details, even posting code! Sometimes someone writes about how he found an interesting bug or how he optimized one routine to run 2% faster. And this seems a great way to keep the community engaged and informed about progress. Not sure if that would work for 7d though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I'd be all up for a Kin's Korner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stallionsden Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Please excuse the rep's typo. Dunno what happened; some residual gusts from the tornado musta moved my fingers. Haha. Guppy for president 2018**** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unholyjoe Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 But... But... Devs don't listen, and they sure don't read our feedback! incorrect... they read posts that are 5 words or less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Thanks for the update Kin! I'd be all up for a Kin's Korner. +1, hope it happens... —snip— And I see Kinyajuu is still using this fake old profile picture. Huh? What? Undercover Kin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maharin Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 But... But... Devs don't listen, and they sure don't read our feedback! It's like positive feedback from a microphone... you hear it but you don't really want to listen to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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