Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Dauthiatull]

The simple fact is that you will likely never see zeds attacking underground bases. The dev has already said that the pathing is very short ranged. Unless they have them spawn inside solid rock or right in your base, I really don’t see it happening. And if they do everyone will complain about the fps when the server tanks trying to calculate the structure integrity of the massive holes the zeds are making trying to get to you

[KingSlayerGM]

Interesting Underground

 

I think that we can all agree that we would like the underground to be more interesting.

 

However I think there is a big part of the community, myself included, that wants to have a safe heaven from time to time. Although you can make the underground more dangerous, it shouldn't prevent you to be safe, if you wish so. Having zombies sensing you trough 50 blocks of stone would be very silly and would ruin the game for a lot of players.

 

What would an interesting underground have?

• underground POIs, like mines, fallout shelters, nuclear silos, research centers (like the large hadron collider, which is underground).. we kinda have some of these, but we could have a lot more and much deeper into the ground and much bigger
  
• underground zombies in said POIs
  
• underground caves
  
• underground lakes
  
• underground lava pockets
  

[Dauthiatull]

Im not against making underground more dangerous but the unity engine has limits. Also please stop assuming it is ruining the game for everyone. Some like it the way it is. There is no right way to enjoy the game. If the devs meant you to play it their way we wouldn’t have mods at all

[trielkee]

The simple fact is that you will likely never see zeds attacking underground bases. The dev has already said that the pathing is very short ranged. Unless they have them spawn inside solid rock or right in your base, I really don’t see it happening. And if they do everyone will complain about the fps when the server tanks trying to calculate the structure integrity of the massive holes the zeds are making trying to get to you

 

 

Well, that is the reason I like the idea Tin suggested. If you have some sort of device on the surface that is needed for air suply to your underground base, that you have to maintain/repair every so often, they could make it so zombies attack it if they can't get to you which would, after they damage it enough, cut off air supply and leave you with two choices: go and repair it/fight or die.

 

Edit: the mentioned device could make a sound while powered on that attracts zombies

[Dauthiatull]

I think that we can all agree that we would like the underground to be more interesting.

 

However I think there is a big part of the community, myself included, that wants to have a safe heaven from time to time. Although you can make the underground more dangerous, it shouldn't prevent you to be safe, if you wish so. Having zombies sensing you trough 50 blocks of stone would be very silly and would ruin the game for a lot of players.

 

What would an interesting underground have?

• underground POIs, like mines, fallout shelters, nuclear silos, research centers (like the large hadron collider, which is underground).. we kinda have some of these, but we could have a lot more and much deeper into the ground and much bigger
  
• underground zombies in said POIs
  
• underground caves
  
• underground lakes
  
• underground lava pockets
  

The movie tremors comes to mind

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

There is something very wrong with the mobile version of this site

[UbiquitousMoose]

How about...

Buff zombies out of sunlight rather than just at night? Would also make some POIs a bit trickier.

Give zombies a real grudge against player placed hatches and a burning desire to see what's below?

Zombie juice buildup in tunnels, risk of mudbutt and infection while underground? Perhaps combined with a debuff against antibiotic overuse.

A subterranean bunker should be pretty secure but also present the significant risk of becoming your tomb if you stay put for too long.

[Dauthiatull]

Well, that is the reason I like the idea Tin suggested. If you have some sort of device on the surface that is needed for air suply to your underground base, that you have to maintain/repair every so often, they could make it so zombies attack it if they can't get to you which would, after they damage it enough, cut off air supply and leave you with two choices: go and repair it/fight or die.

 

Edit: the mentioned device could make a sound while powered on that attracts zombies

 

A dev pointed out that it can’t be done without constant recalculation of every air block between player and surface causing a massive load on the server. And would fail all together since some of that volume would be in an unloaded chunk. Keeping those active is more load on the server. Multiply that by x number of players and what you end up with is a server crash

 

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All this may be possible one day when IBM releases their prototype 100Ghz cpu

[Armstrrong]

I think that we can all agree that we would like the underground to be more interesting.

 

However I think there is a big part of the community, myself included, that wants to have a safe heaven from time to time. Although you can make the underground more dangerous, it shouldn't prevent you to be safe, if you wish so. Having zombies sensing you trough 50 blocks of stone would be very silly and would ruin the game for a lot of players.

 

What would an interesting underground have?

• underground POIs, like mines, fallout shelters, nuclear silos, research centers (like the large hadron collider, which is underground).. we kinda have some of these, but we could have a lot more and much deeper into the ground and much bigger
  
• underground zombies in said POIs
  
• underground caves
  
• underground lakes
  
• underground lava pockets
  

 

I have better idea........ bandits.

[Xeen]

1. you are a terrible person to suggest such a thing, why shouldn't I be allowed to build my base underground while still fighting the Z's??

 

2. your suggestion doesn't work *at all* (talking A16 here, no idea what AI-changes will come in A17) in terms of stopping players, that wanna hide from Z's underground to do so if they really want to. no idea where exactly you want to draw your magical "no building beyond this point"-line, but to avoid zombies it is enough to shovel 3 blocks (!) down, 2 to stand and one to block the entrance. I can also build a whole base no more than 5 blocks underground if I wanted to or had to.

 

3. another problem: when you go down for mining (that would be still allowed, right?) you would have no means of putting some supports/ladders etc. breaking mining completely and thus making the underground absolutely dead. not a smart move imho

 

conclusion: no...it really wasn't that easy .....but nice try though

 

First of all you calling me a bad person for a perfectly reasonable suggestion is insulting and makes you a insensitive jerk and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

You sir haven't read every thing I have on alpha 17, I had read everything in this thread every single day for the last year and you are making some bad assumptions, the fact is in Alpha 17 they are changing everything about the way zombies sense and attack players, they will dig down to get you, they attack structural points, they are smart as hell, there is no longer stupid zombies that can't get to you BUT they still won't sense a player beyond a certain block distance regardless of the direction.

 

Furthermore I never said you couldn't use all "structural style blocks" you can specifically ban certain blocks from being used while leaving others available for use.

[Xenophobed44]

I think that we can all agree that we would like the underground to be more interesting.

 

However I think there is a big part of the community, myself included, that wants to have a safe heaven from time to time. Although you can make the underground more dangerous, it shouldn't prevent you to be safe, if you wish so. Having zombies sensing you trough 50 blocks of stone would be very silly and would ruin the game for a lot of players.

 

What would an interesting underground have?

• underground POIs, like mines, fallout shelters, nuclear silos, research centers (like the large hadron collider, which is underground).. we kinda have some of these, but we could have a lot more and much deeper into the ground and much bigger
  
• underground zombies in said POIs
  
• underground caves
  
• underground lakes
  
• underground lava pockets
  

 

Just wanted to show my approval of this idea. Sounds pretty damned snazzy, though in terms of lakes and lava pockets. Perhaps it would be best to have water working where you 100% want it to be first. I know that a bit of an overhaul happened to it in A17 though if I'm not mistaken. Roland or someone said there is still room for improvement on it to get it to more of a minecraftian level of performance

[Aldranon]

A rich selection of dificulty settings would enable everyone to enjoy the way they want to play their current game.

 

Also it would allow for a great deal of replayablity. Everything else is less than optimal.

[archergod]

Here is a simple idea for stopping people from building underground bases at bedrock because people are making it entirely too complicated.

 

Have a floor limit that way you flat out can't place building blocks lower than a specified block level that way any structure you build isn't below the range that a zombie can sense you from, this completely stops the complaining about bunkers being cheaty.

 

Now wasn't that easy?

 

It sound easy, but then why bother making 60 M high ground at all and complex rendering ? why not make 5/10 M ground and hills goes to 50-60 M and world end at 150 M, that way there is no 250 high and reduce so much data for rendering.

 

 

And I really don't see point of stopping player from doing it, this is survival game, you cannot survive remaining underground. You have to come out for food and water. even in real world, you cannot find zombie every where, even they cannot break the walls that easily as they do in this game. So, it is fair enough to build underground.

[Dauthiatull]

They never said they would dig down that deep. The likely will only dig to you if you are in pathing range. Given how deep bedrock is that’s not likely going to happen and even if it does it’s still not much of a threat. Most don’t put the entrance anywhere near the main part. You will hear them coming and leave , go to the surface. By then they are in a pit. Shoot em and fill in the hole. That or kite them away.

 

To be honest this is no worse than driving all night to avoid fighting the horde. Should we get rid of vehicles?

[Dauthiatull]

Instead of thinking of ways to punish underground bases we should try to find incentives to build above ground

[Xeen]

It sound easy, but then why bother making 60 M high ground at all and complex rendering ? why not make 5/10 M ground and hills goes to 50-60 M and world end at 150 M, that way there is no 250 high and reduce so much data for rendering.

 

 

And I really don't see point of stopping player from doing it, this is survival game, you cannot survive remaining underground. You have to come out for food and water. even in real world, you cannot find zombie every where, even they cannot break the walls that easily as they do in this game. So, it is fair enough to build underground.

 

The entire point of this game is building a base or modifying en existing structure and defending it against hordes of zombies, now if you choose not to play it that way then that is a choice you make but you aren't playing the game like it was intended to be played.

[trielkee]

A dev pointed out that it can’t be done without constant recalculation of every air block between player and surface causing a massive load on the server. And would fail all together since some of that volume would be in an unloaded chunk. Keeping those active is more load on the server. Multiply that by x number of players and what you end up with is a server crash

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

All this may be possible one day when IBM releases their prototype 100Ghz cpu

 

As I understood what Tin suggested; there would be no need for air block calculation because there would be no need for air blocks.

 

After a certain depth, blocks would have a buff that depleted your oxygen, and the device for oxygen (which would have to be connected to another one at the surface for air intake with pipes and such, similar to the connections the game allready has for electricity) would have a buff that would counter the one from the blocks.

 

I know this design has some issues, like if you dig a wide enough hole with no blocks above you and the blocks with the negative buff still drain you oxygen, that wouldn't make much sense, I know, but there could possibly be some workaround for that issue.

 

But his idea seems like it would have the least impact on performance because most mechanics it would use are allready in the game.

[JaxTeller718]

Im not against making underground more dangerous but the unity engine has limits. Also please stop assuming it is ruining the game for everyone. Some like it the way it is. There is no right way to enjoy the game. If the devs meant you to play it their way we wouldn’t have mods at all

 

Allowing the support they do for mods has zero to do with the vision of the base game as it is sold to the general public.

 

Play anyway you want, mod what you want. We aren't debating that. We are talking about the default vanilla experience. In that case there IS a right and a wrong way to play it. They seem to be going out of their way this Alpha to make avoiding zombies much harder to do. THAT is how they tell you to play. If anything goes then just play in CM mode. It is there for that very reason. But the way you survive in vanilla with default settings? The devs very much decide that way. Not you or me. They are the designers and the architects. They make the rules inside of this world we play in.

 

I don't know where this idea that just because people are familiar or used to something that it is written into law that it can never be changed came from. I think by now the Pimps have shown us they are very willing to change and adapt long standing mechanics to whatever their vision for the game is. Much like this Alpha the target is pillar bases and such through better pathing.

 

Just like you can mod out zombie cops, dogs and weather, those who enjoy underground dwelling can mod out the dangers there as well. The point was should there be any dangers, and absolutely yes there should be or the game is incomplete and ultimately will always have a nagging asterisk after the word "survival" in its name.

[trielkee]

Instead of thinking of ways to punish underground bases we should try to find incentives to build above ground

 

That still won't fix the exploit that is underground bunkers (I know there are people who enjoy those but that's just my opinion).

[Bogen]

Hi,

 

What was this little update on Steam this morning?

[Genosis]

Folks concentrate so hard about one feature that they completely ignore how design works. =)

 

 

Why are you avoiding the horde?

Because you see no benefit in it?

A benefit can be be created.

 

If there is a benefit to fighting it, where are you doing it?

Many will want to use static defenses.

Your base looks like a good spot, right? There are likely traps and sturdy walls.

 

So what could the incentive be?

Zombies in 7 day hordes can drop better loot. Bosses can spawn and drop more loot.

Zombies that die near you (including to traps) can grant you a cumulative bonus to loot quality to start the next week with.

 

I'm sure many will still not want to fight that horde but you know what? That's okay with me.

 

I like the loot bonus modifier idea. The more you kill, the better the loot is out in cities (quality +100, count x 3, etc).. which essentially transfers the loot lost by killing hordes to where the intended loot is supposed to be. Justifies reducing zombie loot down to bosses/rares, and gives you a reason to get to the ground level to fight the zombies. Saves cleanup too, I've had 200+ kills on some nights, I basically wrote off the next day.

 

It's a little "magical", but game play wise it works.

[Aldranon]

Folks concentrate so hard about one feature that they completely ignore how design works. =)

 

 

Why are you avoiding the horde?

Because you see no benefit in it?

A benefit can be be created.

 

If there is a benefit to fighting it, where are you doing it?

Many will want to use static defenses.

Your base looks like a good spot, right? There are likely traps and sturdy walls.

 

So what could the incentive be?

Zombies in 7 day hordes can drop better loot. Bosses can spawn and drop more loot.

Zombies that die near you (including to traps) can grant you a cumulative bonus to loot quality to start the next week with.

 

I'm sure many will still not want to fight that horde but you know what? That's okay with me.

 

That could be some of many options. Thinking of the game Factorio, with many settings anyone with a few clicks can make there dream game (within reason).

[Menace312]

Folks concentrate so hard about one feature that they completely ignore how design works. =)

 

 

Why are you avoiding the horde?

Because you see no benefit in it?

A benefit can be be created.

 

If there is a benefit to fighting it, where are you doing it?

Many will want to use static defenses.

Your base looks like a good spot, right? There are likely traps and sturdy walls.

 

So what could the incentive be?

Zombies in 7 day hordes can drop better loot. Bosses can spawn and drop more loot.

Zombies that die near you (including to traps) can grant you a cumulative bonus to loot quality to start the next week with.

 

I'm sure many will still not want to fight that horde but you know what? That's okay with me.

 

Well yes and no...

 

It isn't always about incentive or benefits... Sometimes I want to avoid the hoard, just because... No other reason then that.

 

As you say, anyone can play the way they want. I certainly also find it weird, why someone would want to always avoid the hoard... But the option is nice...

 

I never viewed 7d2d as a: You must do this, or you must fear that... I view it as totally open world.

 

I dont mind upgrades to dangers and better AI. But I see no reason to ruin underground for those of us who like it.

 

Should any new underground be designed, that the vast majority of players will like, well then I understand it.

 

But I think those who complain the most about it, will never do underground anyway. They are just pissed off because they cant do PvP easily, and they know the answer to that will be: "it not a PvP game". So they find other ways.

 

And then there are the few hard core players, who just want more gameplay (e.g. underground is boring right now).

 

Let's get the context right

[trielkee]

Nobody wants to ruin underground for those who like it, it's just that it would be more enjoyable if you work to achieve something and not get it at day 1.

[NukemDed]

lets just wait and play what is delivered

i have a feeling we are going to be surprised and thrilled. and we will all have some proper jump scares along the way.

thats the point isnt it?

sure, fix it with a bang or arrow or bash but "dang, that was unexpected" is what its all about

i am almost too scared to play whats coming

 

almost

[KingSlayerGM]

Why are you avoiding the horde?

 

There are so many reasons why one would want to avoid horde night:

• you are doing something else and you don't want to interrupt it to deal with the horde. Examples: building, mining, scavenging...
  
• you don't want to waste resources to deal with the horde. Like ammo, materials to repair...
  
• you don't want to waste time repairing what the horde would break
  
• you just moved to a new place and your base is not ready to withstand a horde
  
• you are weak, or out of medkits, or out of food, so you don't want to face the horde now
  
• you are out on an adventure far away from Home and don't have the tools with you to deal with a horde
  
• you joined a squad much higher level than you, so you let them deal with the horde
  
• you are playing pvp, so you couldn't care less about horde night
  

 

So, I think that if you are quiet, maybe underground, zombies, even during horde night, shouldn't sense you.