Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Gamida]

I find that the only people who use the word naught more than naughty are they who tend towards being haughty.

 

In other words, Gammy, I think you're haught for using naught. (Don't be distraught)

 

 

 

 

Now for a real answer if you feel you can handle the truth. Don't look if you are easily offended or disillusioned.

 

 

 

 

The pimps very rarely follow the advice of any forum faction when it comes to implementing game design and gameplay choices. Even when they do they will alter it or possibly drop it later if it doesn't fit with what they want to do. Sometimes they implement something similar to what a mod was already doing or what was hashed out on the forums but there is no evidence of causality to believe they were influenced or inspired by those things. I can tell you that in many cases TFP had plans to do it long before a modder created it or someone in Pimp Dreams posted about it.

 

They listen when there is a huge negative reaction and then make adjustments if it doesn't conflict with their own goals. If it is something they feel strongly about then the fans have to adapt and cope with it (or mod it out or in). Case in point, is the HUD. Removing the minimap and then later the food, water, and day and time were hugely unpopular. TFP added the day and time back in but have been firm on the rest of the HUD.

 

Another example are timers. They used to be optional but TFP made them mandatory and then allowed people to reduce them by spending XP. Some accused the Pimps of caving in to the "few" who pushed for timers. What they didn't know is that it was always planned to make timers mandatory but mitigate them with skills and perks.

 

They listen to aesthetics and visual and audio feedback from the forums. An example is the bob and sway that they reduced due to forum outcry and also there was a high pitched pinging sound that happened when you got stunned and they got rid of that thanks to feedback. The visual of the lava monster got changed thanks to the angry mobs.

 

They also investigate bug reports by forum members.

 

So are the Pimps swayed by our talk about game design and feature ideas? Not at all. They know what they want to do and while they might get distracted by forum talk of ziplines for a moment, they are not afraid to shrug off the spell and move back to their own vision.

 

So is it pointless to talk about this stuff? No way. It is fun and it also leads people like Tin to try out crazy modding ideas that can have cool results. But we shouldn't get upset by forum members saying that they hope the underworld will always stay 100% safe or other forum members saying they hope there are zero 100% safe zones in the game because nobody is brainwashing the Bearded One in either direction.

 

 

 

 

I am naught haught if that is what you thaught...um thought.

 

 

Also your point seems to be that TFP probably only listen if the consensus is negative (and could impact sales which is weird because the ones making them have already bought game) instead of positive posts for something.

 

But if bandits do it and place TNT on all the structural supports of his base and bury him in rubble he'll be back to pissing and moaning

To be fair tho I think he will be safe in this respect, Gazz is not that sadistic

 

 

Doom, you trying to reverse psychology Gazz so he does do it

[Doombringer101]

I am naught haught if that is what you thaught...um thought.

 

 

Also your point seems to be that TFP probably only listen if the consensus is negative (and could impact sales which is weird because the ones making them have already bought game) instead of positive posts for something.

 

 

 

 

Doom, you trying to reverse psychology Gazz so he does do it

 

Haha shhhh my will foil my cunning plan....

[Maharin]

I also want underground threats I can seek out. Subway tunnels with subway cars full of zombies. Basement levels of office buildings that are "dark and deep" so the biggest baddest zombies rule there and always run. Sewer systems that have raging hordes going through them because the masses fled there hoping to avoid the war and the plague. Underground parking garages that have zombies leaping/crawling out of cars behind you as you pass. Old caves that had whole communities dwelling in them at one point until the infection arrived.

 

A guy can dream, can't he?

[wolfbain5]

This is a tempest in a teacup. Let the pimps implement what they plan before getting too bothered. In my experience they do things in a fair way with the means to mod away the parts you don’t like. (exhibit one: spam crafting “removal”)

 

If the most they ever do is add back in a digging ability but keep it commented out I will be a happy underground dweller regardless of how they make vanilla. I’ll be playing Swiss cheese myself

 

just for you

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23104[/ATTACH]

[Jackelmyer]

Skyscraper Nerd poling.

Loot gathering. My flawless SMG (best gun in game for various reasons and +1800 damage a clip) always needs stuff.

 

I try to connect adjoining skyscrapers, by making a perch lower down with hay bales and basically a diving board up near the roof of the other. Base jump!

 

I end up destroying every car I can find as brass is always in short supply.

I look for more traders on my minibike to buy 9mm's and SMG parts.

 

But eventually, the lack of plot gets to me and I take more risks until, like my current game I have to stay at bedrock and defend my 4 containment chambers (look up "Extruder" I made on the forum). There I will die, trying to defend the world from the interdimensional invaders (my plot)

 

 

Here's a pic of a 3x3 pit zombie extruder. Its more efficient than a 5x5 pit extruder. You just stand near that window, occasionally hit them with your spiked club and collect loot as they literally ooze out!

https://7daystodie.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22410&d=1503639555

 

...and in 'operation'

https://7daystodie.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22412&d=1503639600

 

Make sure you nail the Z-cops with your SMG, they are about the only thing that does notable damage.

(Kneel down, look up and shoot them in the head using short, controlled bursts)

 

This I think emulates the point a lot make when saying not to drive people to play certain ways. You had the option to try boring ways to play. You found what you liked, regardless of those options existing.

 

More options = more fun for everyone, even if some options are boring to you.

[Jackelmyer]

That's not irony at all.

 

What would be ironic is if they were that smart but they dug weird tunnels anyway because they knew it would piss you off...

 

But then that brings up an interesting point. So if zombies could find your hatches and tunnels because of reasons (smell, zombie sense, sounds) and bashed those in and then just followed your own tunnels down instead of digging new ones then you'd be fine with zombie threats underground? Is it pretty much just the random tunneling you want to avoid?

 

I haven't said that directly, but yes. Though I still don't want holes I'm going to randomly fall down as I'm out picking daisies. Enough of the damn broken legs. And can you imagine the out cry of Dead is Dead players not making it past day 49 because of pits left by digging? That'd be a cheesy way to die and no one wants that.

 

But, I have said multiple times...

 

"It'd be cool to see zombies running down my underground bases hall ways. Take off to my base defenses and light up my turrets."

 

Just ideally not cops underground. Underground explosives are a bit much and over time will cause hell underground.

 

But I do also want some way, something, that can hold my resources, like the crap ton of stone I dug out, and not be destroyed, so I can rebuild.

 

Here... This is the list of what I don't want to deal with.

 

* Probably the most important point. Constantly busy by zombies where I barely have time to dig resources and build. There has to be a way to catch a break to build up the resources especially for later game play. Maybe that's nothing more than screamers and wandering hordes getting nerfed and a gas powered turret I take with me mining.

 

* Random holes in my world I fall down and break my legs or die in.

 

* My world made into swiss cheese to the point it's hard to build.

 

* Zombies popping up on the outside of my concrete walled room without me having a way to access them for defense. I.e. digging right up to my underground forge room.

 

This still leaves plenty of room for zombies to come at me underground. Just avoid the above and you'll probably get more attraction to bringing zombies down below.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

But if bandits do it and place TNT on all the structural supports of his base and bury him in rubble he'll be back to pissing and moaning

To be fair tho I think he will be safe in this respect, Gazz is not that sadistic

 

Please, like most wouldn't be pissing and moaning that a bandit flipped a switch and dropped their whole base to the ground. Pft.

[Gazz]

When bandits open your hatches and lob grenades down, when you're digging and come across a mass grave of swarming zombies, when air needs to be recycled, or underground rad zones are found, or any other kind of threat is added to make underground dwelling "not safe", are we really going to need digging zombies?

At the risk of encouraging Guppy - maybe not.

 

It really is too early to tell and the current AI is rather... one-dimensional?

Maybe later game zombies get "better senses" but you can acquire the Scaredy Cat hiding perk so nothing finds you while you remain still. (like Solid Snake casually leaning against a wall...)

 

 

And in general people have a weird perception of how TFP get feedback from the forum.

It's not so much that a certain solution will be read and used. Of course it's on the table if it's brilliant but much more likely is that the issue will be discussed and solved... in a way that doesn't conflict with future plans.

Or maybe it only gets marked as a "maybe later".

In general it's a terrible idea to give players what they ask for. You're better off giving them gameplay elements that solve the perceived issue while being playable and maybe even fun. =)

[sillls]

That's not irony at all.

 

What would be ironic is if they were that smart but they dug weird tunnels anyway because they knew it would piss you off...

 

But then that brings up an interesting point. So if zombies could find your hatches and tunnels because of reasons (smell, zombie sense, sounds) and bashed those in and then just followed your own tunnels down instead of digging new ones then you'd be fine with zombie threats underground? Is it pretty much just the random tunneling you want to avoid?

 

 

Now that's a good idea!

 

Zombies following you around. TFP's have been calling this bread crumbs and have been trying to add it for a long time. But leading them to players underground bases would be much better than having dozens of them digging holes or worse. Spawning in your base at random.

[Gazz]

But if bandits do it and place TNT on all the structural supports of his base and bury him in rubble he'll be back to pissing and moaning

To be fair tho I think he will be safe in this respect, Gazz is not that sadistic

Bandits tossing TNT is definitely a possibility.

Even more fun if you shoot one and make it drop the stick it was throwing.

[Royal Deluxe]

I hope in future we get rid of these "I can everything Cops"

* Tanks

* Healer

* Shooter

* Explosives

It really makes no sense to "uber" Enemys that Combine good offense and Defense.

Its rock-paper-scissors not rockpaper versus scissors

 

That removes 100% Tactic and make the fights 100% arcade

[Doombringer101]

At the risk of encouraging Guppy - maybe not.

 

It really is too early to tell and the current AI is rather... one-dimensional?

Maybe later game zombies get "better senses" but you can acquire the Scaredy Cat hiding perk so nothing finds you while you remain still. (like Solid Snake casually leaning against a wall...)

 

 

And in general people have a weird perception of how TFP get feedback from the forum.

It's not so much that a certain solution will be read and used. Of course it's on the table if it's brilliant but much more likely is that the issue will be discussed and solved... in a way that doesn't conflict with future plans.

Or maybe it only gets marked as a "maybe later".

In general it's a terrible idea to give players what they ask for. You're better off giving them gameplay elements that solve the perceived issue while being playable and maybe even fun. =)

 

Yeah I don't expect miracles from the AI in a voxel world.

Just don't make them all deadly accurate like a certain Sci-Fi voxel game and don't make them walking loot delivery systems

[Gazz]

It's actually rock, paper, scissors, Spock.

[Doombringer101]

Bandits tossing TNT is definitely a possibility.

Even more fun if you shoot one and make it drop the stick it was throwing.

 

Nice threat and opportunity all in one

[Roland]

Also your point seems to be that TFP probably only listen if the consensus is negative (and could impact sales which is weird because the ones making them have already bought game) instead of positive posts for something.

 

Well...I probably should have said that they listened more and considered more our ideas earlier in the dev cycle but now that things are closer to the end their plans and time are locked in and even if someone comes up with an awesome idea, if it is not already part of their plan they’re not going to go for it—at least not until after Gold.

 

My main point is that those who fear that the pimps made bad decisions for their game because they listened to some small but loud faction of the community is bonkers. They do what they want. If the owners enjoyed spam crafting we would still have it regardless of what those who posted against it were saying. They listen but they only trust their own sense of game design.

[Aldranon]

This I think emulates the point a lot make when saying not to drive people to play certain ways. You had the option to try boring ways to play. You found what you liked, regardless of those options existing.

 

More options = more fun for everyone, even if some options are boring to you.

 

I agree. Not sure if my playstyle is common or not, sorta "Bushido meets Woody Allen". It all depends on how much coffee I drank!

[Jackelmyer]

I have always wanted to be able to purchase a town plot, where you CAN build in peace BUT zombies would have to still be able to break through outer walls and shamble into your town so picture Alexandria I guess, with Walker break ins that you and others have to defend against.

 

And NPCs to help defend with you.

 

I think this is roughly the holy grail. At first, you build your little shack to defend from. Small wandering hordes, no screamers.

 

An NPC shows up. "You... Are on gardening buddy."

 

You build a bit more.

 

And NPC shows up. "You are on defense buddy..."

 

And you grow or do the same thing with a settlement you find.

 

What would be awesome with this is if wandering hordes and screamers scaled with an areas total player blocks and total player NPCs and player level.

 

So big structure and lots of NPCs means lots more zombies.

 

I also would love to have a block I could place underground and assign an NPC to do mining. Like a door way. And the npc just goes up to it and Poof's away and eventually Poof's back up in front of the door and drops mined resources in a box.

 

I wouldn't be underground at all in a setup like this. Only early game to build up my resources for my start. I'd probably also the build one small underground vault for storage. Have my forges actually up top and outside. Omg. Please?

[Royal Deluxe]

It's actually rock, paper, scissors, Spock.

 

no

Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock

and in this topic

SpocksRocklizardscissors versus paper

 

Give the cops somthing that supports the team

Means Tank + Shooter + Smoke or so

 

And make other zombies explode but with really only a few HP

[Gazz]

Yeah I don't expect miracles from the AI in a voxel world.

Just don't make them all deadly accurate like a certain Sci-Fi voxel game and don't make them walking loot delivery systems

The loot has been cut down severely because there are now a helluvalot more zombies... if you go looking for them of if they come looking for you.

 

As for the accuracy - expecially bandits - we have a plan. Still a matter of tinkering but they wont be FIRING MAH LAZORS.

They'll likely be more dangerous than zombies, though...

[Jackelmyer]

It's actually rock, paper, scissors, Spock.

 

You forgot the lizard.

[Maharin]

Bandits... Or zombies with brains as we like to call them.

 

Wait...

[Royal Deluxe]

Or much better,

Exploding zombies that cant stand only a single stone arrow,

but

They explode heavy if they touch a automated defense

(doable with a buff ?)

 

This way the player need to kill them allways first.

Would make the Battles much less arcade

[sillls]

M-4 assault rifles.

 

One thing that would be really cool is to see an M-4 military issue assault rifle in the game. Set for single fire with the option to add a scope.

That would go really well with the military personal already in the game. Weapon and ammo only found in military loot.

It's a great weapon and well balanced for all situations. Long (scope), medium short and urban fighting.

Comes with 22 ammo (5.56). Witch does not use as much material to make as the 7.62 rifle round.

 

Later could add things like a fire suppressor.

Different types of 22 ammo (tracers, armor piercing, hollow point).

Two types of laser pointers, one standard. The other only can be seen if you have night vision goggles.

Different settings for rate of fire like three round burst and full auto.

[Doombringer101]

The loot has been cut down severely because there are now a helluvalot more zombies... if you go looking for them of if they come looking for you.

 

As for the accuracy - expecially bandits - we have a plan. Still a matter of tinkering but they wont be FIRING MAH LAZORS.

They'll likely be more dangerous than zombies, though...

 

Great news looking forward to seeing them in action.

[graphite]

I think it would be a bit like this:

==============================

All blocks have a flag saying "I am structurally sound (SS)"

If a block is removed: Add block above, North, South, East and West to check list. # could be just location pointer.

For all in check list.

if block is air : next. # Air is never SS

if block is water : goto other checks. # Water is never SS unless there are boats that are build able and we have a whole other problem.

is block below me SS, I am SS, go to end loop.

is block beside me and below it SS, I am SS (check for all four directions).

I am not SS.

Do normal FunPimps checks for SI.

end of loop.

Have I changed state, if so Add block above, North, South, East and West to check list.

Move to next block in the check list.

==============================

 

Depends a lot of data structure efficiency.

 

I think this will work. It will obviously be more intensive then the current system. It probably has holes in I am not aware of, situations it will not work. I have other ideas that would make the extra load less of a problem, but would require a lot of work on multi-server configuration.

 

All blocks are stuctually sound not sure when you calculate this to set this tag on world build or on the fly when a block is altered ?

 

If it is on world build and SI checks verticaly at every square metre and the map size can be 20000 length width then 400000000 square metres.

 

But it builds regions on the fly so you would only need generated regions and i am guessing you need what is generated as a hub in the previewer and there are 144 of them.

 

So ~27777778 SI checks

 

So if you built a prefab then all its blocks would have this flag set at the start of the world build unless you reset.

 

What happens when you start digging a 1m square hole i am guessing that TFP SI check is run on surrounding blocks and tags them.

 

All the time a hole is dug straight vertically there is only continuous SI check of the destroyed block and the one time primary extra 4 checks and tag routine at the start.

 

So maybe use this test

 

Locate a prefab placed in the centre of the map.

 

Dig a 1 block hole straight down 20m in the middle of the prefab building fill it with frames.

 

Five columns now down to bedrock tagged with SS.

 

Throw a stick of dynamite down though the frames.

 

Blows a 3*3*3 hole 20 m down.

 

Now i have not thought about what happens here regarding if the first block destroyed starts calculating SI or if all blocks that are destroyed are within a time that SI is calculated simultaneously.

 

Some type of order cue would avoid race conditions and you could start with closest to origin.

 

So there is 5*5 area that is on my checklist to start.

 

3*3 area are air blocks so SI checks are run.

 

So what has been run.

 

 

20 checks to dig hole vertically

 

4 extra checks for surrounding blocks at the start.

 

20 checks to block hole up with wood frames.

 

16 extra checks for surrounding 3*3 area.

 

So i it has run 50% overhead of SI checks without adding the tagging implementation.

 

I can see the point of possibly saving checks further on but they could easily be negated or added to.

 

I am not a programmer but i am guessing that overhead is not viable even if you get gains out of it later on.

 

You could also run this test with a well prefab in the map and throw a stick of dynamite down it to create a different test to a open hole.

 

I hope you dont mind me making a hole in the concept but i tried to make a realistic stress test for your concept and you need to break these things to improve them.

[Aldranon]

I hope in future we get rid of these "I can everything Cops"

* Tanks

* Healer

* Shooter

* Explosives

It really makes no sense to "uber" Enemys that Combine good offense and Defense.

Its rock-paper-scissors not rockpaper versus scissors

 

That removes 100% Tactic and make the fights 100% arcade

 

A person would need to cheat up a crap-ton of ammo and weapons to fight off a high level horde, using a non-tweaked fort.

 

That or use: AL's Bedrock Zombie Extruder & loot machine! Only 5000 Dukes! I max out getting about two chests worth of stuff, there's just too much to do.

 

But seriously, it eventually become a grinding attritional thing where you spend more time fixing things than doing fun things.