Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[Lasher]

A little poll to see which of the progression systems players liked most...

[Riamus]

This type of poll isn't really going to provide much actually useful data.  For one, the people on the forum very often play the game differently from what most others do, so their views aren't necessarily related to what most players think.  Second, anyone who hasn't played all three systems in this game will vote based on how things are in other games, which isn't an accurate idea of how they are/were in this one.  What works in one may not in another.  Third, being the first week, the majority of votes will be for something other than the new method because people aren't used to it yet and people usually hate change.  And fourth, even people who played LBD in this game will often have a nostalgic view of the past versions and think that's what they prefer even if they might not actually like it all that much of they try it again after not playing that way for a long time.  They might, but they also might not now that they are used to another way.

 

But there isn't anything wrong with looking at skewed votes.  I can tell you the likely ratio right now - 55% LBD, 30% perk, 15% LBR.  I'll be interested to see how close my guess is after a week.  😁

[Lasher]

52 minutes ago, Riamus said:

This type of poll isn't really going to provide much actually useful data.  For one, the people on the forum very often play the game differently from what most others do, so their views aren't necessarily related to what most players think.  Second, anyone who hasn't played all three systems in this game will vote based on how things are in other games, which isn't an accurate idea of how they are/were in this one.  What works in one may not in another.  Third, being the first week, the majority of votes will be for something other than the new method because people aren't used to it yet and people usually hate change.  And fourth, even people who played LBD in this game will often have a nostalgic view of the past versions and think that's what they prefer even if they might not actually like it all that much of they try it again after not playing that way for a long time.  They might, but they also might not now that they are used to another way.

 

But there isn't anything wrong with looking at skewed votes.  I can tell you the likely ratio right now - 55% LBD, 30% perk, 15% LBR.  I'll be interested to see how close my guess is after a week.  😁

 

The real point is that I'm interested in what people think - plus I'm also a little tired of the fact that whenever anyone objects to anything that TFP do there seems to be an excuse that it's only a minority opinon so who cares.

You've just pointed out yourself that you think that the majority of players will favour LBD, but again we have the excuse that this is "Skewed"

Don't get me wrong - I dont think for a minute that TFP will actually take player opinons on board - they haven't and they won't - but I'd kinda like that to be nice and out in the open rather than any idea that when they make a mis-step they're prepared to do anything to correct it even if it's a majority opinion.

It's simply not the case.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Lasher (see edit history)

[Scyris]

This is going to be slanted because newer players have never played a16.4 and they are used to the crappy way its done now and don't know any better.

[Riamus]

50 minutes ago, Lasher said:

You've just pointed out yourself that you think that the majority of players will favour LBD, but again we have the excuse that this is "Skewed"

It is.  I've explained the various reasons why it is.  If state the same no matter what opinion I have of the various systems.  But let's go by what I think personally rather than just pointing out it is skewed...

 

LBD: I didn't play it in this game but from experience in every other game that had had it, it is nothing but a monotonous grind.  You have to repeatedly do something you wouldn't otherwise do just to get better at something.  Do you want to make better armor?  Then go make 50 armor so you can be better.  Do I need 50 armor?  No.  Do I have any use for it? No.  Sure, I can sell it but I wouldn't normally make that if it wasn't forced on me to do so just to get better.  Things like fighting, which gains XP that levels you up and therefore makes you better at fighting is a place where LBD works as you are already doing that.  But in most things, you need to go out of your way to get better.  I've yet to see it implement in a way that doesn't require you to do that.  So for me, never LBD.

 

Perks:  They worked fine, imo.  I didn't mind then at all.  However, I also never crafted except a handful of things like food, vehicles, blocks, etc.  Armor or weapons or mods?  No.  In A21, I am actually crafting things, so it seems to have been a good change in terms of increasing crafting, which was a main goal of the change.  Did I care that I want crafting?  No.  But now that I am in A21, it is not a bad thing.

 

LBR: Not a great system.  It does seem to increase crafting and that is good.  Magazines feel way to frequent but the lowered frequency in today's update will probably result in no more crafting as you'll easily outpaced crafting with quest rewards and looting.  It isn't my favorite system and I think there could have been better choices but it solved crafting being non-existent for most things.  I think that with tweaked that we will see over the next while, it will be better.

 

Btw, there is also the other issue with this poll.  If you are lucky, you will get 100 votes.  I'll be surprised if it does get that high but it might.  That is such a small sampling of players that it isn't going to provide an even remotely accurate view in what the majority of players like.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Lasher]

9 minutes ago, Riamus said:

It is.  I've explained the various reasons why it is.  If state the same no matter what opinion I have of the various systems.  But let's go by what I think personally rather than just pointing out it is skewed...

 

LBD: I didn't play it in this game but from experience in every other game that had had it, it is nothing but a monotonous grind.  You have to repeatedly do something you wouldn't otherwise do just to get better at something.  Do you want to make better armor?  Then go make 50 armor so you can be better.  Do I need 50 armor?  No.  Do I have any use for it? No.  Sure, I can sell it but I wouldn't normally make that if it wasn't forced on me to do so just to get better.  Things like fighting, which gains XP that levels you up and therefore makes you better at fighting is a place where LBD works as you are already doing that.  But in most things, you need to go out of your way to get better.  I've yet to see it implement in a way that doesn't require you to do that.  So for me, never LBD.

 

Perks:  They worked fine, imo.  I didn't mind then at all.  However, I also never crafted except a handful of things like food, vehicles, blocks, etc.  Armor or weapons or mods?  No.  In A21, I am actually crafting things, so it seems to have been a good change in terms of increasing crafting, which was a main goal of the change.  Did I care that I want crafting?  No.  But now that I am in A21, it is not a bad thing.

 

LBR: Not a great system.  It does seem to increase crafting and that is good.  Magazines feel way to frequent but the lowered frequency in today's update will probably result in no more crafting as you'll easily outpaced crafting with quest rewards and looting.  It isn't my favorite system and I think there could have been better choices but it solved crafting being non-existent for most things.  I think that with tweaked that we will see over the next while, it will be better.

 

Not knocking your choices at all. I'm sure plenty of players will have different opinons as to which system they prefer.

Personally, I didn't mind Perks and I didn't mind LBD - both worked ok as far as I was concerned - but Learning by Looting for me is by far the worst system of all - in particular I think it ruins co-operative multiplayer by forcing all players into exactly the same  progression path.

But I'm interested in what other people think about it and I'm not particularly happy about the way many players very genuine concerns are just brushed aside.

 

45 minutes ago, Scyris said:

This is going to be slanted because newer players have never played a16.4 and they are used to the crappy way its done now and don't know any better.

 

True enough - but won't it be interesting if the new system still comes out as least popular even so?

[pApA^LeGBa]

Actually i prefer what Darknes Falls does, learning by doing for action skills and points for perks and crafting. Until i want to use another weapon. That´s the big downside, you can´t just switch weapons and reallocate your points, on higher difficulties you are stuck with your choice. Then i always wish i could simply put points into action skills.

 

Progression wise i like the magazines, they slowed down progression a bit at least for things like vehicles and workstations. But they make the game linear and take away the freedom of how to play the game, also they aren´t immersive at all.

 

I´d like to somehow mix the 3 options here.

[katarynna]

I do think your poll is flawed, because learn by reading also includes learn by perks (one for crafting, the other for skills). To me, the choices should be lbd, lbd + perks. perks, lbr + perks.

 

I manage to be the exact opposite of what Riamus expected. I started in a15, so played all 3. I vastly prefer the magazines for crafting. I can learn to make the things i want/need, while spending my perk points where i really want them instead of where i NEED to put them in order to improve crafting/learn recipes.

 

However, I still prefer perks of lbd. I don't mind the way lbd is done in some of the overhaul mods, but i still wouldn't choose that over pure perks or perks + magazines. I mix in various overhauls with vanilla game play, but i do it for variety and not because i feel vanilla is lacking in any way. I feel vanilla gives the most balanced experience, df is for qesting/story progression, ul for building/crafting slow steady progression, wotw for loot extravaganza.

 

I play probably 70% solo, 20% 2 players, 10% 3-8 players. I've only done solo and duo so far in a21. In both, the magazine system worked beautifully. Granted, my duo game we decided to have one crafter, so the 1st read all mags and the 2nd didn't read any. We progressed MUCH faster than solo, but not so fast that it felt broken. I could consistently craft better than we could buy or loot. However, some groups are complaining that while they play IN a group they don't play AS a group, so they are having issues. And just to be clear, i wanted my duo partner to be the crafter, but he wanted me to do it. We both enjoy it, but he wanted to focus on exploring and looting and didn't want to commit to extra time at base for his first a21 game.

 

For me personally, lbr + perks gives me the most freedom plus endorphin rush.

 

 

 

 

[NBornkilla]

i miss the skill progression on alpha 16 one of the best  in my opinion.

[Survior]

Some small combination of the above would be best, but a learn by looting alone system is the worst case scenario that is the most unrealistic and most arcade game-ish.

[AtomicUs5000]

Read a magazine to unlock the next stage of learn by doing.
Learn by doing is then a set of challenges such as having to kill x number of y type zombies with a shotgun for increased shotguns skill. Challenges are more difficult within each stage.
Reach the end of these stages to finally choose some special perk.

[Lasher]

Very interesting so far - if people have other ideas, for instance hybrid systems then please post them here. I'm really interested to see what kind of system people think would work best.

[boban]

10 hours ago, Riamus said:

LBD: I didn't play it in this game but from experience in every other game that had had it, it is nothing but a monotonous grind. 

 

You should try. Just download A16.4 and give it a shot. I seriously never considered doing that in A16.4 (which I think was a problem in earlier alphas), even if all I did was literally and metaphorically jump in Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall to optimize level up points. Or try Darkness Falls (which is a blend between LBD and LBP).

[Greymantle]

If I had to pick, either of the top two would have been my choice. A simple band-aid fix to what we got and one that would have been a ton better (a lot less book/magazines) than the one we got is just make each magazine skill up 2 levels (Subject to balance per skill) and cut the magazine drops by Half.

 

The new direction for 7 days to find books/magazines was a huge step back the way it was implemented. I'm quite shocked this was put in the way it was after a year and a half of testing. Now 2 days after the drop of 21 they are already backing off some. What that tells me they never tested this system out or very little. Another thing, I have no idea how they can balance this system between multi-player and solo play.

 

The new system has way too many book/magazine drops, it breaks immersion. My wish is they scrap the whole system yet again and work off one of those top two choices and make it better, or some hybrid with the best features of all of them.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[Scyris]

7 hours ago, NBornkilla said:

i miss the skill progression on alpha 16 one of the best  in my opinion.

 

Pretty much everyone who has played a16.4 prefer its progression to anything after it. I will admit it needed some tweaks, like craft quality need to not be tied to the learn by doing skill directly, but maybe to its assouated perk, like Pummele Pete 1 lets you craft ql 2 clubs etc. Darkness Falls has a modified A16.4 learn by doing progression system and its basically all tfp had to do to keep that system from a16.4. Instead they decided to make more work for themselves to redo the skill system into a far worse form for a17 and beyond.

 

The stat system CAN work but it needs changes, maybe a 2-3 stat system, Offense (has all weapons) Defense (Has armor etc) and survival, or something simmlar, the current stat system really screws over single player games, especially weapon wise.

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Greymantle said:

Now 2 days after the drop of 21 they are already backing off some. ...

 

Can you explain why it is backing off and not simply balancing that was done?

 

 

[Syphon583]

Good lord, it's been out for 4 days. You cannot tell me that after 4 days you can honestly (and fairly) make up your mind regarding a new progression system. Also given the fact that the game is in experimental and balancing will be a continual process for the next few minor releases.

 

How about we let it cook a little bit?

[BFT2020]

7 hours ago, Scyris said:

The stat system CAN work but it needs changes, maybe a 2-3 stat system, Offense (has all weapons) Defense (Has armor etc) and survival, or something simmlar, the current stat system really screws over single player games, especially weapon wise.

 

I play SP all the time and haven't noticed any issues with weapons or stats with the perk system.  You don't have to max perk a weapon to use it, and use it effectively

[Kosmic Kerman]

The poll choices have no relation to how this game ever worked so I'm not sure what you think you are going to accomplish here. In the current system you action skills are controlled by perks and your ability to craft items is controlled by finding skill books to gradually level up your various crafting skills (notably not an option in the poll).  When the game was completely LBD your actions were leveled by using an item, your crafting skill was controlled by how much you crafted (which early game meant crafting infinite stone axes or anvils to level at a reasonable pace), and you had to find schematics to unlock certain craftables. When the game switched completely to perks  your actions and crafting ability were controlled by perks and you could unlock certain craftables with either perk points or schematics and other craftables required finding a schematic. 

 

 

[boban]

Interesting results so far... seems that 80% of active forum users prefer other system than the new one...

[Kosmic Kerman]

2 minutes ago, boban said:

Interesting results so far... seems that 80% of active forum users prefer other system than the new one...

You mean 80% of the people who voted. I haven't voted because the choices do not reflect the systems the game has had.  And of course votes here are purely reactionary because no one has played A21 enough to be able to fully assess its strengths and weaknesses compared to A20. At this point, I can't say whether I prefer A20 or A21. Early game, I'm enjoying A21 but I have no idea how I will feel about it mid-game, late-game or on subsequent playthroughs. I can say I prefer the systems in A20 and A21 to those that existed in A16 and before. 

[NBornkilla]

8 hours ago, Scyris said:

 

Pretty much everyone who has played a16.4 prefer its progression to anything after it. I will admit it needed some tweaks, like craft quality need to not be tied to the learn by doing skill directly, but maybe to its assouated perk, like Pummele Pete 1 lets you craft ql 2 clubs etc. Darkness Falls has a modified A16.4 learn by doing progression system and its basically all tfp had to do to keep that system from a16.4. Instead they decided to make more work for themselves to redo the skill system into a far worse form for a17 and beyond.

 

The stat system CAN work but it needs changes, maybe a 2-3 stat system, Offense (has all weapons) Defense (Has armor etc) and survival, or something simmlar, the current stat system really screws over single player games, especially weapon wise.

agreed with this 

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

Good lord, it's been out for 4 days. You cannot tell me that after 4 days you can honestly (and fairly) make up your mind regarding a new progression system. Also given the fact that the game is in experimental and balancing will be a continual process for the next few minor releases.

 

How about we let it cook a little bit?

I encouraged him to go ahead and do the poll now when he first brought it up and then do another one after a few months. Some will initially like this new system and then grow to dislike it and others will initially dislike it and then grow to like it. We don’t know how people will like it for replay value after restarting a few times nor for long term games yet. We always get discontent people claiming that x play style has been destroyed by some change but then within a few weeks lo and behold someone figures it out and the play style turns out to be just as viable.
 

But it’s fun to see a snapshot of forum sentiment during week one. Nobody should feel threatened by any outcome of this poll. TFP doesn’t design by polls. They encourage mods by polls… 😜

Edited June 16, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[sovapid]

lol, i've played the learn by looting for like 3 hours.  dont know how you would have an opinion based on experience yet.

[warmer]

I feel the current systems learn by lootimg is a compound of all three. RNG is influenced by skills point distribution, and skill point distribution is influenced by players intended play style.

 

I have always been a fan of learn by doing in any rpg as that is the closest to real world skill building, but magazines are essentially taking the place of youtube tutorials in the apocalypse.

 

The current system has the best balance/setting appropriate execution IMO

 

additionally, i feel that learn by looting brings MP balance into focus. Everyone essentially starts on the same playing field and no one can quickly outpace someone to end crafting stage by skilling into 1 thing. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)