What was the point of the water change?

[meilodasreh]

I once noticed some of my dew collectors weren't at 100%HP after a while, never found out how it happened.

Maybe some stray zombies got stuck in the row and started to hit them, but then snapped out of it again supposedly?

Don't know. And until now I'm not concerned, they weren't anywhere near to being destroyed, and fast to repair (scrap polymer iirc).

 

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Ianua said:

Do zombies attack dew collectors?

No, but I have already lost several dew collectors either due to friendly fire from my turrets or spit from cops or radioactive vultures.
 

By the way, an underground dew collector farm is possible. You only need to have 5 blocks free on top of the dew collectors. Or if you want it a little more realistic you can create vents that lead to the surface. The vents must be above the center of each dew collector.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

No, but I have already lost several dew collectors either due to friendly fire from my turrets or spit from cops or radioactive vultures.
 

By the way, an underground dew collector farm is possible. You only need to have 5 blocks free on top of the dew collectors. Or if you want it a little more realistic you can create vents that lead to the surface. The vents must be above the center of each dew collector.

AP ammo in your junk turrets are great when you are out and about but will bring down the real estate value around your home.

That and stray fire from shotguns and 44 mag passing through everything can make a mess too.

 

I keep them just at the edge of my LCB property line and they generally don't take much damage. If you've got them around your horde base, you can always pick them up for horde night and put them back in the morning too.

 

Underground is a good solution, or on the roof/upper levels if you've got the room.  You can put security grates over them too.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:54 AM, Krougal said:

No, they don't attack the dew collectors. I don't know if that was an oversight or by design, but as of right now they are safe outside on the ground.

 

Incorrect. We have lost several to zeds on more than one occasion.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

Incorrect. We have lost several to zeds on more than one occasion.

Maybe they were poorly placed and attacked by raging zeds?

They do not target them directly unless something changed in the last patch.

Since I am late game and don't need as much water anymore, I have taken to putting 1 or 2 on the roof of each base and calling it good.

My 1st base where I have 4 on the ground still I don't visit too often lately.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I have had them on the island in my pit base, on a farm away from our base, and at other locations and they DO get attacked. Not often, but it happens.

[Vaeliorin]

Don't screamers target things that generate heat?  That would be my guess for how they're getting damaged/destroyed.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

Don't screamers target things that generate heat?  That would be my guess for how they're getting damaged/destroyed.

 

I always thought so, but then most of us don't leave our chemistry tables outside.

The only thing I can think of for the discrepancy is that mine might be in another chunk so the heat that is drawing screamers isn't there but where my base is.

I tend to have the forges, campfires & mixers running almost all the time, which is a lot of heat.

That and a daytime horde is easy XP so I am quickly out there to deal with it, but I can say with 100% certainty that any damage I've ever had to any of my water collectors is incidental.

[meganoth]

In our last game the first 3 of our >15 dew collectors were standing openly in the driveway of our residential home-turned-crafting base. Nothing around them at all, the screamer spike traps were all directly on the house walls. In about 50-60 days of playing not one of them got destroyed.

 

[Roland]

I think zombies only target players as of A17 and also fresh corpses as of A21. There are no AI tasks that set objects or entities other than players as targets for destruction. If workstations, containers, or vehicles, or traps are destroyed by zombies, it is simply bad luck from their random "destroy area" task they sometimes go into when they can't detect any pathway to where the player is. Prior to A17, zombies had an AI task to target doors specifically but that was removed in A17.

 

As far as screamers, from what I can tell, the source of heat that sets them off simply forms a waypoint for them to travel to much like wandering zombies have a waypoint that they go to. They do not target the heat source to destroy it but simply go there looking for players.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

what about "friendly fire" then?

Maybe they get damaged when the player is fighting zombies around the base,

and the dew collectors accidentally get hit by maybe a "stray" pellet from a shotgun shell.

That would do some amount of damage to them, probably even without the player realizing he did hit it, because most of the pellets did actually hit the zombie.

[Gideon]

You eat the jar, and then it evaporates out of your pores and from your breath. Later, it condenses back into jar form with the dew collector.

[ZehMatt]

Removing glass jars was one of the biggest mistakes done to this game, nothing can change my mind on that. Having to use mods to "fix" a game is quite crazy, most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods, what kind of nonsense expectation is that? Also this is not about realism but immersion, glass jars vanishing is just dumb, also having played earlier versions knowing what it was like to have them makes this even worse, glass jars had a perfect place in this game, to collect and cook water, what exactly is wrong with that? The only thing that should have been changed is that cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water, just keep it murky and everything would be fine with the new way of getting clean water, why can't we put the collected clean water in glass jars? Every god damn update 2 good things are added and 10 good things are being destroyed, when I first discovered this game I had really high hopes for it, those hopes are long gone.

[Tom Stephens]

16 hours ago, Gideon said:

You eat the jar, and then it evaporates out of your pores and from your breath. Later, it condenses back into jar form with the dew collector.

  

Yep, the jars out-gas from us as silane and CO2 (no PET-ting allowed).  But that kinda gas (just like methane) comes out of more than just pores.  Oh, and using or writing mods to change, add or re-introduce features to the game is by design.  Call it 'meta' if you like, but that process is WAD as far as I'm concerned.  And there ain't nuthin' unhealthy about introducing ourselves to a little XML by digging around in ../data/config.

 

On 9/17/2023 at 7:19 PM, meganoth said:

In our last game the first 3 of our >15 dew collectors were standing openly in the driveway of our residential home-turned-crafting base. Nothing around them at all, the screamer spike traps were all directly on the house walls. In about 50-60 days of playing not one of them got destroyed.

 

 

I elevate everything I can, which really is *everything* in this game.  In Fallout 4, you can use planters to put your crops and even water pumps on the roof behind protection, which you do because settlement attackers use RPGs and grenades a lot.  Base design in this game should already be looking to the arrival of ranged attackers with explosives.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Tom Stephens
Edit for spacing, extra response (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

3 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods

This is a ridiculous statement. While many people might not know how to install mods, it's an incredibly easy process that takes a 2 minute google search or youtube video to figure out.

 

3 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water

So you're solution is to trade one unrealistic/dumb/"whatever you want to call it" game mechanic for another? That change would be 1000 times worse IMO.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

Removing glass jars was one of the biggest mistakes done to this game, nothing can change my mind on that. Having to use mods to "fix" a game is quite crazy, most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods, what kind of nonsense expectation is that? Also this is not about realism but immersion, glass jars vanishing is just dumb, also having played earlier versions knowing what it was like to have them makes this even worse, glass jars had a perfect place in this game, to collect and cook water, what exactly is wrong with that? The only thing that should have been changed is that cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water, just keep it murky and everything would be fine with the new way of getting clean water, why can't we put the collected clean water in glass jars? Every god damn update 2 good things are added and 10 good things are being destroyed, when I first discovered this game I had really high hopes for it, those hopes are long gone.

 

No, you don't **have to** mod. Most people notice stuff they don't like in a game, shrug, and continue. If it is too much stuff they recognize that the game isn't for them and stop playing that game. Modding is just another alternative where you can reduce stuff you don't like.

 

It seems you have the game since 2017 at least. Has it taken you 5 years to notice that things can change and having played earlier versions makes those changes stick out 😉 ? When you buy into EA when the game is far from finished you have to expect that.

 

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

21 hours ago, meganoth said:

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

Very good point actually, that's how it should work imo.

Finding an empty container/bottle/jerrycan/whatever that can be used to collect and carry water would be a basic survival element, and also a sadly common thing to find even in today's pre-apocalyptic world (ok might be a bit too pessimistic here - hopefully)

These could be used for scrapping for polymer after use,

and also automatically turn into scrap after a certain amount of uses - to simulate some kind of weardown system.

Different sizes of them would also come in handy, so that you could only collect this or that amount of water/fuel/whatever at a time,

but then it would maybe also lead into new "nonsense inconsistencies" again in the context of stack sizes.

To prevent abundance they could take very long to be crafted and/or use lots of resources (like the dew collector already does, what is it, a hundred scrap polymer?)

And also crafted ones could have a way lower durability than found ones, so they could be reused only once or twice before worn out and give only a little amount of reusable scrap.

 

[Riamus]

53 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

Very good point actually, that's how it should work imo.

Finding an empty container/bottle/jerrycan/whatever that can be used to collect and carry water would be a basic survival element, and also a sadly common thing to find even in today's pre-apocalyptic world (ok might be a bit too pessimistic here - hopefully)

These could be used for scrapping for polymer after use,

and also automatically turn into scrap after a certain amount of uses - to simulate some kind of weardown system.

Different sizes of them would also come in handy, so that you could only collect this or that amount of water/fuel/whatever at a time,

but then it would maybe also lead into new "nonsense inconsistencies" again in the context of stack sizes.

To prevent abundance they could take very long to be crafted and/or use lots of resources (like the dew collector already does, what is it, a hundred scrap polymer?)

And also crafted ones could have a way lower durability than found ones, so they could be reused only once or twice before worn out and give only a little amount of reusable scrap.

 

No, thank you.  I am very happy not to deal with jars and would hate to deal with all those other containers.  The only real reason people seem to not like getting rid of jars is that it isn't immersive and they can't fill a ton on day 1 or 2.  Neither is really such a big deal, imo.  Water is easy to get, even now.  In my current game, I even forgot about building dew collectors because there wasn't any point in a 2 player game.  As for immersion, there are so many things in this game that are not immersive that trying to play the game in such a way is futile as it is.  I would choose gameplay over realism or even immersion in this game.

 

Jars won't ever make a return except on mods.  What could happen is to have alternative options added for getting water that do not include jars, such as a water pump.  They haven't said they would add anything like that but that way least has a chance, where jars do not.

[Roland]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:42 AM, ZehMatt said:

Removing glass jars was one of the biggest mistakes done to this game, nothing can change my mind on that. Having to use mods to "fix" a game is quite crazy, most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods, what kind of nonsense expectation is that? Also this is not about realism but immersion, glass jars vanishing is just dumb, also having played earlier versions knowing what it was like to have them makes this even worse, glass jars had a perfect place in this game, to collect and cook water, what exactly is wrong with that? The only thing that should have been changed is that cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water, just keep it murky and everything would be fine with the new way of getting clean water, why can't we put the collected clean water in glass jars? Every god damn update 2 good things are added and 10 good things are being destroyed, when I first discovered this game I had really high hopes for it, those hopes are long gone.

 

What's funny is that I started playing the District Zero mod for 7 Days to Die which replaces all the zombies with droids. It's great!

 

Except....as soon as I noticed glass jars in loot and that drinking returned a glass jar, I felt annoyed. I just throw them on the ground as soon as I notice them in my inventory and it sucks that they are taking up a position in loot containers. I'm just the opposite. After playing without and fully accepting the condition I can't stand to go back and play with them. As the stack of glass jars slowly builds it just feels like opening the creative menu and giving myself water....

[Jugginator]

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

What's funny is that I started playing the District Zero mod for 7 Days to Die which replaces all the zombies with droids. It's great!

 

Except....as soon as I noticed glass jars in loot and that drinking returned a glass jar, I felt annoyed. I just throw them on the ground as soon as I notice them in my inventory and it sucks that they are taking up a position in loot containers. I'm just the opposite. After playing without and fully accepting the condition I can't stand to go back and play with them. As the stack of glass jars slowly builds it just feels like opening the creative menu and giving myself water....

 

Yeah sadly not everything is going to please everyone. It's about doing what's best for the majority of players and trying to compromise as possible. On the other hand, all of my friends reacted with a (or similar response), "Thank god I was sick of throwing them away because I was always full of murky water anyway". It was something most players threw away and the empty jars were impossible to balance, so it's a win. 

[Jost Amman]

"Be water my friend!" 

[Cr0wst0rm]

Title of this topic reminds me only of one thing. And yes, it is one man, one jar.

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Very good point actually, that's how it should work imo.

Finding an empty container/bottle/jerrycan/whatever that can be used to collect and carry water would be a basic survival element, and also a sadly common thing to find even in today's pre-apocalyptic world (ok might be a bit too pessimistic here - hopefully)

These could be used for scrapping for polymer after use,

and also automatically turn into scrap after a certain amount of uses - to simulate some kind of weardown system.

Different sizes of them would also come in handy, so that you could only collect this or that amount of water/fuel/whatever at a time,

but then it would maybe also lead into new "nonsense inconsistencies" again in the context of stack sizes.

To prevent abundance they could take very long to be crafted and/or use lots of resources (like the dew collector already does, what is it, a hundred scrap polymer?)

And also crafted ones could have a way lower durability than found ones, so they could be reused only once or twice before worn out and give only a little amount of reusable scrap.

 

 

That's fine if this game was simply a survival simulator......but it isn't, it's a hybrid.

[meilodasreh]

Why would that be an argument against my idea? I 'm just talking about the survival aspect of the game, which is obviously there, and all other parts like combat, exploring and so on aren't affected by it.

 

Aside that, yes I know, the other/main reason was to reduce inventory clutter.

Taking away a basic survival element (collect and carry water from any available source) from a not-only survival game wasn't the primary idea of course.

 

And I agree the "anti-clutter part" kind of works...well I'm still cluttered pretty good with stuff I don't want when I wrench down/harvest stuff, with things what have a pretty limited use in the game, like headlights, grass, later on also iron pipes, when I just want the springs. Even cloth still gets an annoying abundance over time.

...well in the end with everything I might have gathered enough already.

 

If they really want to reduce inventory clutter, a system would be nice where you can "check out" stuff that you don't want to auto-pickup, that would be nice.

And rethinking some stack sizes would also help greatly.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. I know the old system, I have tried the new system, I understand the advantages and disadvantages of both, and still,

I like the old system better. That's how I feel.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to try and put an objective weight on the pros and cons, like "the game is this or that and that's because why" in this case, to try to convince somebody that the changes did make the game objectively better than before.

It's different, yes. Whether it's better or worse, that can only be decided on a personal/subjective level.

 

 

[RipClaw]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

Except....as soon as I noticed glass jars in loot and that drinking returned a glass jar, I felt annoyed. I just throw them on the ground as soon as I notice them in my inventory and it sucks that they are taking up a position in loot containers.

Robocop should arrest you for littering. The position is now filled by old sandwitches and scraps of rotten meat. Empty jars were more useful, in my opinion.

 

9 hours ago, Roland said:

After playing without and fully accepting the condition I can't stand to go back and play with them.

And other players mod them back in because they want them and hate the new mechanics.

 

I have accepted that the empty glasses are gone and have a dozen dew collectors to cover my need for water.

 

Of course, this also attracts many screamers which is just annoying. It's like the guy who roams around the office with his coffee mug, always wanting to make small talk and keep people from working. At least you can shoot the screamers.

 

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

And rethinking some stack sizes would also help greatly.

I second that. The stack size of cloth should be raised to at least 1000 and clean water to 125.