My worries with Alpha 21

[DuskWolf]

I have been a huge fan of The Fun Pimps since I started playing back in Alpha 14. back when Alpha 16 was coming out I remember asking if they would add swords into the game as I would love to kill zombies with swords and Joel replied in the comment that they would. I later come to find out they took back the promise of swords, but I still play 7 days to die regardless. Though I wish swords were in the game. My worry about Alpha 21 is that so many changes are being made that seem anti player friendly. Such as the change to water, the continued lack of bandits and boss zombies, and now changing the secret stash for traders. It has seemed like The Fun Pimps really want players to play a particular way ever since they got rid of underground bases being a viable base type for horde night. It also seems that they hate farming one of my favorite parts of 7 days to die. I think Alpha 19 had the best farming in the game and I hope it goes back to how it was in Alpha 19. I'm personally not a fan of being forced to have to do quest if I don't want to and I remember when you never needed to, but it was nice that they were there in case you wanted to. In Alpha 21 it seems we are going to be forced to have to do quest. I'm not sure if I will play much of Alpha 21. I'll probably just play Alpha 2o. Though if new texters ever get added into the game I would love to play with them. I do love base building after all and Alpha 20 is amazing for it. At any rate I hope that The Fun Pimps keep working on the game and don't ignore player concerns because the player base always remembers how game companies treat their customers.

[meganoth]

If someone doesn't follow the development closely then he might get different impressions for what some changes were done.

 

The water change for example is done to improve the survival part of the game. If survival games are not your thing then you might get the impression it is player-unfriendly. But for many other players it means a fix to an unsatisfying situation. Remember that 7D2D is a genre mix.

 

The continued lack of bandits is not a change and is simply a result of the AI programmers having a hard time getting bandits finished. I myself made a post a few weeks ago where I suggested to them that they should publish them even when they would be unfinished, but it seems they have high standards on what to publish and won't add half-finished stuff. And programmers need a lot of time to implement difficult features like AI and players impatience does not help speed that up. Question to you: Would you be happy if TFP ordered their programmers to do lots of overtime hours just to make us happy? Remember how much flak the CD Project Red bosses got when they ordered crunch time for their developers.

 

TFP did not change the zombies to dig to make underground bases difficult to operate. Zombies were able to dig in early alphas but with that early AI zombies dug too often and produced holes everywhere. So it was temporarily turned off and later turned on again. And why shoudldn't zombies be able to dig when they can destroy anything in any other direction?

 

And you are wrong if you think underground bases are gone. They need just a little more effort as a crafting base. In the early game just add lots of spike traps on the surface (their tops must be on the same level as the ground!!). And as soon as you can get SMG or shotgun turrets, add at least one for every cardinal direction. Voila, you have an underground base just like before.

 

Even a horde night base underground is possible, I made one or two already. But they need a lot more work and knowledge about the zombie abilities, granted. But before the zombies could dig players built underground bases simply because they were totally overpowered. Why? Because the ground was used by players as an indestructible wall since zombies simply could not attack it. An indestructable wall that should not exist in a world that calls itself fully destructable.

 

Understandable that players like overpowered stuff, but a developer needs to balance a game so nothing in there is overpowered.

 

Why do you think you need to do quests in A21, by the way? All important items in the game have multiple sources. The new water filters can be found in loot and bought at the trader, you don't need a quest to get one. The new magazines can be found in loot or bought at the trader as well, no need for quests.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Why do you think you need to do quests in A21, by the way? All important items in the game have multiple sources. The new water filters can be found in loot and bought at the trader, you don't need a quest to get one. The new magazines can be found in loot or bought at the trader as well, no need for quests.

You theoretically have different sources but you don't get the same amount from each source.

 

The filter is a very rare find according to the information so far. Therefore, you will probably buy the first filters from the trader or get them as a quest reward.

 

On the other hand, we will probably get most of the magazines while looting. The merchant will sell some but I don't expect there to be very many and as a quest reward you can get bundles that contain 9 random magazines. I can imagine that quests significantly increase the efficiency with which we get magazine. For example, in my current game I have two Crack a Book POIs in my hometown. One is a T2 Quest POI and the other is a T3 Quest POI. Since the quest buildings reset when I start the quest, I would have a virtually unlimited source of magazines in A21.

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You theoretically have different sources but you don't get the same amount from each source.

 

The filter is a very rare find according to the information so far. Therefore, you will probably buy the first filters from the trader or get them as a quest reward.

 

On the other hand, we will probably get most of the magazines while looting. The merchant will sell some but I don't expect there to be very many and as a quest reward you can get bundles that contain 9 random magazines. I can imagine that quests significantly increase the efficiency with which we get magazine. For example, in my current game I have two Crack a Book POIs in my hometown. One is a T2 Quest POI and the other is a T3 Quest POI. Since the quest buildings reset when I start the quest, I would have a virtually unlimited source of magazines in A21.

 

 

I don't think he is talking about the same issue as you. DuskWolf was not asking for the most efficient way (yet) nor was he rejecting to buy from the trader.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Crater Creator]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:25 PM, DuskWolf said:

…It has seemed like The Fun Pimps really want players to play a particular way ever since they got rid of underground bases being a viable base type for horde night….

I agree with basically everything meganoth said, but this point in particular is just wrong. Underground bases are in no way less viable than above ground bases. What TFP did was make both options consistent. Now, zombies can attack the roof of your underground base with exactly the same force with which they can attack the walls of your above ground base. If you actually make an underground base in the current game, you are not suffering some punishment for playing the game ‘wrong,’ and the above ground player is not enjoying some advantage for playing the game ‘right.’ You are both in fact experiencing the same challenges, in terms of zombies attacking and eventually destroying any blocks that stand between you and them. In fact the underground base still has certain advantages, including being easier for the player to hide from non-Blood Moon zombies, low risk of your base collapsing, and many layers of stone between you and the zombies that don’t have to be crafted and placed.

[Darthjake]

28 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

I agree with basically everything meganoth said, but this point in particular is just wrong. Underground bases are in no way less viable than above ground bases. What TFP did was make both options consistent. Now, zombies can attack the roof of your underground base with exactly the same force with which they can attack the walls of your above ground base. If you actually make an underground base in the current game, you are not suffering some punishment for playing the game ‘wrong,’ and the above ground player is not enjoying some advantage for playing the game ‘right.’ You are both in fact experiencing the same challenges, in terms of zombies attacking and eventually destroying any blocks that stand between you and them. In fact the underground base still has certain advantages, including being easier for the player to hide from non-Blood Moon zombies, low risk of your base collapsing, and many layers of stone between you and the zombies that don’t have to be crafted and placed.

 

I almost always have my crafting facilities underground, preferably under a mountain, but then I also will have a kill trap base set right over my production area.

Do I get exp for the Z's killed?  No

 

Am I bothered by the Z's?  No

 

And I usually only have to do maintenance on it once a week or so.

[RipClaw]

5 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

In fact the underground base still has certain advantages, including being easier for the player to hide from non-Blood Moon zombies, low risk of your base collapsing, and many layers of stone between you and the zombies that don’t have to be crafted and placed.

Rock is pretty weak. The zombies dig their way through the rock much faster than you think.

The real advantage of an underground base is that you can get many of the resources you need to build it by digging.

 

The biggest disadvantage of underground bases is that you can't run away so easily. Even if you have built an escape tunnel, it can happen that the zombies are already waiting at the exit. Escaping from a base above ground is relatively easy. You jump down and all you need is a few jars of coffee, and you can run away from the hordes all night.

 

And by the way, even with a base above ground, you don't necessarily have to invest a lot of resources if you don't want to. There are many POIs that you can simply convert to a base. Guns, Nerd and Steel has published a video today that shows some of these POIs and how to expand them with few resources so that they can withstand even a midgame horde.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m124Zpw1UKw

 

 

[FA_Q2]

As an underground base builder before the digging update, I absolutely LOVED the added feature that zeds will now dig to you.  It has not forced me to do anything.  It just added to the continued threat to more locations and that is a very good thing IMHO.  Nor did it make underground bases non-viable: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXVOyrHUeKE

 

You may not like the changes but so far I think that each and every alpha has been a major step forward for my overall enjoyment of the game.  Even the hated A17 (I think that was the one most people here complained about) I thought was a damn good update.  I think your "anti player friendly" remark is rather incorrect as it would be better stated as anti you, not anti player.  Don't get me wrong, I do think some of the changes are bad, I hate the new farming system for example.  But that was a miniscule price compared to the massively improved world generator alone not to mention all the other positive changes that happened in A20.  I have a feeling I will miss the current armor/clothing system when they change it to a more set based system as well but past alphas have shown me that I will love the overall product they deliver.  

 

At this point though changes to the game are gravy.  Not only are past versions available, but the only thing that I 'worry' about in upcoming alphas are that the changes are not expansive enough to make the game world feel new and therefore not worth sinking another 100 hours in a new playthrough.  So far, they have always delivered.

 

[fragtzack]

Underground base building whines have been debated ad nausea for the like the last 4 years.  The official conclusion of all the debates :

 

 

 

[Roland]

Those who oppose digging zombies on the grounds that they render underground bases useless obviously have never tried doing it and have just been assuming it has been impossible from the time they read about the change. All it takes is trying it out for the "debate" to be over...

 

A more accurate gif for them would be the guy beating that dead horse while wearing a blindfold and earplugs.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

 

A more accurate gif for them would be the guy beating that dead horse while wearing a blindfold and earplugs.

 

I dont see any eyeballs or ear canals on the guy.

 

Must be a mutant.

[Fanatical_Meat]

I used to do underground bases for forges and such. I typically went above ground for horde night. Then I decided while underground bases look nice and have advantages, they are sort of boring.

I’m fine either way if you want an underground base just dig really deep and you’ll probably be fine however you are missing a big point of playing the game.

[Maharin]

[RipClaw]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

Those who oppose digging zombies on the grounds that they render underground bases useless obviously have never tried doing it and have just been assuming it has been impossible from the time they read about the change. All it takes is trying it out for the "debate" to be over...

The OP did not say that underground bases are useless but not viable for the hordes night. That is partly true.

 

The classic underground base with a hatch and a ladder offers no protection for horde night. No matter how deep you go or how much you reinforce the surface.

 

The alternative is a bedrock pit horde base. But that doesn't work because the zombies would rather dig than jump into a deep pit. Therefore you have to trick the zombies. You have to place a block about 5 blocks from the surface in the pit that the zombies try to land on, but it is small enough that they miss it or fall down.

 

Guns, Nerds and Steel made a video about how to build a bedrock base: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXVOyrHUeKE

 

 

I have already tried it and it works quite well even if the effort is significantly bigger compared to a base on the surface.

 

I also tried some time ago base designs just below the surface with a ramp down into the base. That only worked as long as the entrance was not too far away from the player. Otherwise the zombies started to dig down to the player. I would have to test it again in A20 to see what has changed in the pathing since then.

 

In short. Underground bases are not useless but to use them as a horde base you have to invest a lot of effort. If you want to use them as crafting bases it still works as long as you don't enable Feral Sense.

 

[Roland]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

In short. Underground bases are not useless but to use them as a horde base you have to invest a lot of effort. If you want to use them as crafting bases it still works as long as you don't enable Feral Sense.

 

This is still a better situation gameplay-wise than having an entire biome wrapped in a complete impenetrable force field that you can enter simply by stepping into it a few meters.  Digging zombies took us from 100% safety and able to ignore much of the game the developers were trying to create to a situation where you have close to 100% safety 6 days a week with safety on that one day a week requiring a lot of effort.

 

Many players have separate horde night bases from their everyday crafting and storage bases whether they stay topside or go deep. There is nothing wrong with having a separate base for horde nights. What was wrong was that during those several alphas when they could not dig there was no horde night gameplay at all. Going underground cancelled Horde Night completely and whether that is something some players wanted or not, it isn't really a gameplay choice. It was a choice to remove the gameplay.

 

Players who want the underground to be as it was can do so by turning off bloodmoons and by not turning on feral mode. It is basically the same thing we had before. If they ran underground every seven days for perfect protection and liked that, then they can easily do the same thing now either by turning it off, decreasing the frequency, and/or going topside during the event. Or they can spend a lot of effort to defend their underground bunker. The current settings accomodate everyone in how they like to play. Without digging zombies you wouldn't have ever tried the base design you did. You wouldn't have needed to.

 

[Ramethzer0]

Ironically, one of my MP companions decided to convert an old mine (in the wasteland biome) into a horde base about three weeks ago.  We've used it twice now and while the digging thing is still problematic for the health of the landscape and it makes it look even more ugly as sin, so far, its never been breached.    One of the more interesting features is that there is a tunnel system outside of our concrete areas that seems to push the zombies all onto their hands and knees.   This was actually a net positive for us.  While they swarmed at us like the Aliens in the air shafts scenes in the second film, they were also MUCH easier to get head shots as they were moving toward us at what seemed to be a slightly slower clip.

 

The AI of the tunnelling zombies is just as manipulable (is this even a word? IDK) as they are above ground.  They very often wont punch walls if there's just an easier way to get to you.  Essentially an underground base just becomes a subterranean form of killing corridor, and often the results are the same.  It's just another form of area denial (which is a playstyle that most INT based builds can capitalize upon) couched in a different perspective.

 

One major thing we DID learn (the mine went all the way to bedrock) is that drones REALLY don't like following tunnel structures, and that if you are at bedrock level during a bloodmoon while you have a mountain over your location - the zombies don't really get a chance to spawn into your chunk.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Without digging zombies you wouldn't have ever tried the base design you did. You wouldn't have needed to.

I had bedrock bit bases in A15 and A16. The concept is not new. You just didn't have to convince the zombies to jump into the pit. They did that all by themselves when the player where down there. In fact, these bases used to be much more common because we still had the log spikes and the zombies took more fall damage.

 

[Old Crow]

I don't mind digging zombies. I DO mind zombies that dig ridiculously fast (even with their block damage turned down). Last I looked they don't have drills on their arms.

[Star69]

Overall, I think the issue is players not liking change especially when the change directly affects something they feel is critical to their playing style. TFP has repeatedly mentioned that they are not anti-player but anti-exploit even if some changes ‘appear’ to be anti-player on the surface. The MONUMENTAL task of balancing gameplay, removing exploits and making gameplay fun & smooth is all on tfp and they have done a fabulous job thus far. So when they make what some call controversial changes, players must look at this a challenge to make the adjustments to their gameplay rather than a personal attack on how to play the game.

[RipClaw]

On 12/4/2022 at 12:30 AM, Star69 said:

So when they make what some call controversial changes, players must look at this a challenge to make the adjustments to their gameplay rather than a personal attack on how to play the game.

How much of your gameplay do you think you can adjust until you don't enjoy the game anymore?

[FA_Q2]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

How much of your gameplay do you think you can adjust until you don't enjoy the game anymore?

for me, all of it.

 

Indeed, that would breath a lot of new life into the game.  Since A16, every aspect of my gameplay has already changed at least once.

Edited December 5, 2022 by FA_Q2 (see edit history)

[Star69]

9 hours ago, RipClaw said:

How much of your gameplay do you think you can adjust until you don't enjoy the game anymore?

That’s a great question and the answer is whether you adjust or move on to a different game. For some, the changes are too much to deal with, then they either stick with a previous alpha that they still enjoy or make the determination that it’s time to find another game to devote your time to. For me, every alpha is a new game, a new challenge and, so far, enjoyable enough that I’m staying with it. To others, some have left many alphas ago. There is not a wrong answer here, you have to make your own call.

[Roland]

On 12/5/2022 at 3:40 AM, RipClaw said:

How much of your gameplay do you think you can adjust until you don't enjoy the game anymore?

 

It's such a mixture. Some adjustments I've had to make I wasn't happy with at first but I got used to them and other adjustments, although not what I would have thought of doing, ended up being more fun. Not all adjustments to your gameplay necessarily result in less fun and enjoyment. Sometimes when you are forced to play differently you discover that it is more fun than you never considered it would ever be.

 

To me, the game hasn't changed enough to not be fun and A21 was a pleasant surprise in how much fun I found the changes. But I know it won't be fun for everyone.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Flycatcher]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:25 AM, DuskWolf said:

I have been a huge fan of The Fun Pimps since I started playing back in Alpha 14. back when Alpha 16 was coming out I remember asking if they would add swords into the game as I would love to kill zombies with swords and Joel replied in the comment that they would. I later come to find out they took back the promise of swords, but I still play 7 days to die regardless. Though I wish swords were in the game. My worry about Alpha 21 is that so many changes are being made that seem anti player friendly. Such as the change to water, the continued lack of bandits and boss zombies, and now changing the secret stash for traders. It has seemed like The Fun Pimps really want players to play a particular way ever since they got rid of underground bases being a viable base type for horde night. It also seems that they hate farming one of my favorite parts of 7 days to die. I think Alpha 19 had the best farming in the game and I hope it goes back to how it was in Alpha 19. I'm personally not a fan of being forced to have to do quest if I don't want to and I remember when you never needed to, but it was nice that they were there in case you wanted to. In Alpha 21 it seems we are going to be forced to have to do quest. I'm not sure if I will play much of Alpha 21. I'll probably just play Alpha 2o. Though if new texters ever get added into the game I would love to play with them. I do love base building after all and Alpha 20 is amazing for it. At any rate I hope that The Fun Pimps keep working on the game and don't ignore player concerns because the player base always remembers how game companies treat their customers.

 

They kind of added swords, just depends on your definition. 

The machete is basically a common name for a wide variety of large bladed tools, faling in the same category blade wise as the falcata and gladius that both in the short sword family.

 

The one in 7days is based on the Kuriki with a blade length of 45cm, short swords have historical speaking a blade length between 45 and 80cm

It's not a katana or broadsword but does make it more likely to be found in an apocalypse unless you raid a museum or maybe my house.

 

Anyway on this one promise it's tomato/ tomatoes.

 

Since you are an early player, you might remember when you carried food the zombies smelled you and hunted you,

That you needed nails for every building block, to go to concrete you even needed to setup frames to pour and the planks came of when it set.

You had to get a table saw to make special shapes.

The punishing weather system where cloths where required to fit the biome or you die.

That you had the runs with just about any type of food you ate unless you used a perk.

That you had to stock up  amounts of tea and the right type of tea.

The weapon system where you had to find a part then make a clay mold of it to make new parts and that clay could be a real ***** to find.

Arrows, you had to make sharp stones.

You getting killed by falling trees.

Or the bees that where even more annoying than the vulture's (Don't dare to remove the vulture's though TFP)

 

They changed, removed many things to make it more player friendly and to balance things you can't just please all people.

For farming, well yes it's not like it used to be.

Can't plant everywhere, but also no tilling, fertilizing and crafting hoe.

Do wish they added special lights for underground farming though.

 

 

[eXSe]

Never thought of underground bases as impenetrable wall of dirt... and they were if we're being honest. But, nerfing the fall damage for zombies was, kinda, a @%$# move clearly aimed at making underground bases less viable.

 

Having said that, I guess there should be a way, fiddling with some files, to fix that travesty and grave injustice 🙂