Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

No. If TFP give arguments that's sexrex will be removed because influence using weapons - well sexrex influence using tools too like advance. Yes there is a lot of way - this same thing with using weapons - you can drink coffee and moonshine which are conneted with top chef

 

Sex Rex is not being removed.  TFP is just incorporating the perk's bonuses into the other perks because their data showed that non-strength players were perking into it to get its benefits for tools and the other melee weapons.  The only difference was that non-strength players were paying a premium cost for that perk compared to the strength players.  It's an easy way to reduce the gulf between strength and non-strength players (in terms of stamina use at least) while addressing a suggestion that has been made many times in the past.

 

Stamina regeneration boosting items like coffee are temporary buffs while perking into Sex Rex (or in A21, any melee weapon perk) is a permanent buff.   Master Chef (in it's current iteration, will likely be changed for A21) only decreases cooking times, unlock recipes, and reduces ingredients for certain foods, it does not influence those items.  As Uncle Al has already stated, Sex Rex =/= Advanced Engineering =/= Master Chef.

Edited December 15, 2022 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

You probably already know that, but it seems people have misconceptions on what these changes are doing.

Yes, I do know.

My point was that if you re-read Aldranon's post (I did), you will see what I mean.

 

He's talking about progression in general, not about crafting alone.

At least that was what I noticed and replied to.

 

But I think now it's all clear to everyone that books are only used to progress your crafting skill and unlock recipes.

Nothing else.

[Shado47]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

This feeling completely depends on a person's personal preferences. Every system you point at as having been ruined by the changes someone else will point at as having been enhanced. Each player has those aspects of the game that they appreciate depth and detail and "sim"-ness to it and those aspects that they appreciate being more streamlined and abstract and "arcade"-ish.

 

 

Take this suggestion, for example. I already know that if you made having a fuel canister item that was required as a tool or container for collecting gas and it had to be found in loot, there would already be people around here thinking of alternate words to "neat".  The dew collector requires that you find one of the components and there is already worry about that.

 

I'm not saying your fuel canister or canteen idea are bad. I, personally, would totally be on board for detail like that. But I recognize that such changes aren't going to have universal appeal and if the developers, themselves, are wanting the game to swing more arcade in an area where I prefer it more sim (or vice versa) then I know that I'm going to have find a mod to get what I want.

 

I mean I get it, if a game is this old and has gathered this big of a community, any tiny change that might make anything a bit harder / complex is gonna result in a community outcry. But thats a weird argument if the point of it is to justify streamlining and dumbing down systems with it.

 

The water system idea I listed is obviously too big a base game change, but there was really absolutely no need to streamline the hydration system any further from where it already was. Making the water jars harder to craft would've been a far more sufficient fix.

 

This is probably my main gripe with 7dtd updates and has been for quite a while. They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing. Reinventing the wheel when its already functional. And this whole "level by reading" system they're doing now - I mean, the moment you stop and look outside of these forums here you can tell the wider community reception to that change is mostly negative, or at the very least very sceptical.

 

The game is missing a proper roadmap and the "roadmap" at the bottom of this dev log original post is the exact same it has been for years.

I wonder how much more depth will be sacrificed before the game is idiot proof and arcade enough for a gold release.

Metro Exodus reduces the whole crafting system to 2 or 3 ingredients iirc?

I'm sure 7dtd could manage the same.

 

Edit: sorry if I sound a bit cynical. It is just this is my fav game of all time so ofc I am passionate about it, and I like games that actually have a proper learning curve, can't be too easily cheesed, and do have real depth to them. And 7 Days To Die's developments leave it sit in a super awkward place where it gets both expanded as well as streamlined/condensed. I still very much hope they keep the more complex clothing system with the various layers that they have right now. Boiling it down to just 4 or 5 slots would just be Minecraft. DayZ proves that it is absolutely possible to develop a game to be great fun without ever sacrificing any of its depth. For all its flaws, at least it still has every bit of its depth.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Halcyon]

15 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Advance engineering improves mining? What strange mushroom have you been smoking

 

 

 

Well it does reduce the cost of the things you make in the forge like forged steel and cement. So in a wider sense it does get you more final resources for what you mine. It's a lil bit of a stretch but i see it.

 

EDIT: are mushrooms smokable?

Edited December 15, 2022 by Halcyon (see edit history)

[Uncle Al]

5 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

 

I mean I get it, if a game is this old and has gathered this big of a community, any tiny change that might make anything a bit harder / complex is gonna result in a community outcry. But thats a weird argument if the point of it is to justify streamlining and dumbing down systems with it.

 

The water system idea I listed is obviously too big a base game change, but there was really absolutely no need to streamline the hydration system any further from where it already was. Making the water jars harder to craft would've been a far more sufficient fix.

 

This is probably my main gripe with 7dtd updates and has been for quite a while. They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing. Reinventing the wheel when its already functional. And this whole "level by reading" system they're doing now - I mean, the moment you stop and look outside of these forums here you can tell the wider community reception to that change is mostly negative, or at the very least very sceptical.

 

The game is missing a proper roadmap and the "roadmap" at the bottom of this dev log original post is the exact same it has been for years.

I wonder how much more depth will be sacrificed before the game is idiot proof and arcade enough for a gold release.

Metro Exodus reduces the whole crafting system to 2 or 3 ingredients iirc?

I'm sure 7dtd could manage the same.

I'd counter by saying that game systems that have virtually zero impact on gameplay are not 'functional'.

 

Water was a total non-consideration past day one - according to playtesters, the changes fix that.

 

Crafting of levelled items (tools, weapons and armour) was utterly pointless (bar maybe crafting a Q5 tier3 version of your primary firearm precisely ONCE per playthrough) - again, according to playtesters the new system leads to regular crafting throughout your playthrough.

 

From what I see, there is a roadmap, or at least a product backlog, that lists all the game systems that don't yet align with the design vision and require more than just balance tweaks (which can be done in Alpha) to remedy. Each alpha attempts to remedy a few of those systems. If, after live playtesting of an alpha, the solution gets in the neighbourhood of the design vision, it then gets left alone. If it doesn't, it gets reworked again. That's pretty much textbook iterative product development.

[BFT2020]

22 hours ago, Matt115 said:

People doesn't complained - it wasn't buggy or "too much:" under/overpowered. Sometimes water was probably - rarery. They want to rework armor system? i agree because you have light--> heavier armors progresion so that's kinda broken. so - change this + weather = faster dehydration -> you need more water.  No change directly in water but into water

 

Players have been complaining about it in the past, they weren't complaining about jars specifically; but I recall a lot of posts about how survivability in the base game was too easy.  Water in A20 is trivial.  I never had a hard choice about water in the game, never had to drink murky water.  The only "hard" choice I had was whether I should venture out night to the water source nearby to fill a stack of jars to craft glue for items I didn't need that very minute.

[Shado47]

9 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

I'd counter by saying that game systems that have virtually zero impact on gameplay are not 'functional'.

 

Water was a total non-consideration past day one - according to playtesters, the changes fix that.

 

Crafting of levelled items (tools, weapons and armour) was utterly pointless (bar maybe crafting a Q5 tier3 version of your primary firearm precisely ONCE per playthrough) - again, according to playtesters the new system leads to regular crafting throughout your playthrough.

 

From what I see, there is a roadmap, or at least a product backlog, that lists all the game systems that don't yet align with the design vision and require more than just balance tweaks (which can be done in Alpha) to remedy. Each alpha attempts to remedy a few of those systems. If, after live playtesting of an alpha, the solution gets in the neighbourhood of the design vision, it then gets left alone. If it doesn't, it gets reworked again. That's pretty much textbook iterative product development.

 

I wasn't talking about the reworked water blocks. That was overdue. I was talking about the hydration system, and the whole removing glass bottles thing, when there would've been other ways to make it harder to obtain large amounts of drinking water.

 

As for the crafting of levelled items - yes. Of course the new system leads to more crafting. But we've been there before, back when crafting was 600 quality levels instead of 6. So I just don't see the argument as valid since it reintroduces a bit of depth that should've stayed in the game from earlier already to begin with.

 

And the roadmap does exist but it has practically been the same for years. For like 3 years, bandits have been teased as the "next big thing" coming to the game. Well, at one point they were just called NPCs and would've had much more depth to them, but from everything I read about them these days, now they're just zombies with guns essentially. And they're not here yet. Instead the world gen was revamped 10 times, zombies were made slightly more HD 3 times or something, the skill tree system has been redone from scratch like 3 times as well, and the building system has been streamlined to just a single upgrade path as opposed to the multiple fun upgrade paths we had before. Another change that in my personal microcosm of communities I am a member of has seen more negative reception than positive. Yeah it made building more straightforward (kind of - there's so many shapes now, it is simultaneously more complex than ever), but it also reduced some of its depth and the decision making element of what type of building path to go down with the resources at hand. The path is now always the exact same.

 

  

16 minutes ago, Halcyon said:

EDIT: are mushrooms smokable?

No, the compound decays at about 50°C. Smoking them literally doesn't do a thing. 🙃

Edited December 15, 2022 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Morloc]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Sorry, but for me, crafting is not about "Skills", it's about recipes.

 

 

I'd think it's a portion of each.

 

The recipe: (allows you to construct a spear)

You find a survivalist book that explains how to make a simple sharpened stick spear.

It'll likely include the basics below, and perhaps other advanced options to make even better spears (studs, metal sleeves, cord wrapped as a grip, etc.)

 

Selecting suitable wood.

The best length and thickness for what you'll be using it for.

The optimal angle you want to sharpen the point to.

Tips on fire-hardening the tip.

 

The skill: (governs how good the spear you craft is)

This increases with experience, or possibly more advanced literature on the subject.

 

How good are you at identifying wood type and quality.

Measuring (estimating) your spear length, thickness, weight.

Your ability to whittle the point to the suggested angle.

Your skill in applying fire to your spear (not too much, not too little) to harden the point.

Your comfort in trying to implement the advanced options.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

 

 

[Uncle Al]

6 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

 

I'd think it's a portion of each.

 

The recipe: (allows you to construct a spear)

You find a survivalist book that explains how to make a simple sharpened stick spear.

It'll likely include the basics below, and perhaps other advanced options to make even better spears (studs, metal sleeves, cord wrapped as a grip, etc.)

 

Selecting suitable wood.

The best length and thickness for what you'll be using it for.

The optimal angle you want to sharpen the point to.

Tips on fire-hardening the tip.

 

The skill: (governs how good the spear you craft is)

This increases with experience, or possibly more advanced literature on the subject.

 

How good are you at identifying wood type and quality.

Measuring (estimating) your spear length, thickness, weight.

Your ability to whittle the point to the suggested angle.

Your skill in applying fire to your spear (not too much, not too little) to harden the point.

Your comfort in trying to implement the advanced options.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

 

 

Admit it, you're baiting a @SnowDog1942 trap with this one, aren't you...

[Morloc]

27 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

Admit it, you're baiting a @SnowDog1942 trap with this one, aren't you...

 

 

THE QUEEN IS INNOCENT!!

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[Neminsis]

43 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

I was talking about the hydration system, and the whole removing glass bottles thing, when there would've been other ways to make it harder to obtain large amounts of drinking water.

When this was first announced I argued just that point for about a week in the thread overflow. My favored solution to that was to make jars uncraftable but keep spawning them when a bottle was emptied so that you could slowly build up a supply but even that would reduce the need for the dew collector to be built. 

I'm still not a fan of needing to build 6 3x3 stations in order to cover my crafting needs late game but if they were upgradeable at some point, I'd be okay with it.

I can't see it as a reduction in depth of gameplay. If anything, it increases it by adding another layer of complexity. 

If you were talking about removing items making the already sparse loot table seem a little more barren, you might have a point.

[Shado47]

3 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

When this was first announced I argued just that point for about a week in the thread overflow. My favored solution to that was to make jars uncraftable but keep spawning them when a bottle was emptied so that you could slowly build up a supply but even that would reduce the need for the dew collector to be built. 

I'm still not a fan of needing to build 6 3x3 stations in order to cover my crafting needs late game but if they were upgradeable at some point, I'd be okay with it.

I can't see it as a reduction in depth of gameplay. If anything, it increases it by adding another layer of complexity. 

If you were talking about removing items making the already sparse loot table seem a little more barren, you might have a point.

Making the glass jars uncraftable, good idea. Either that, or just harder to craft. I mean Forges used to have mold slots. Bringing back something like that for certain crafting recipes could be really cool, and add another layer of depth to the Forge. But suggesting more depth is absolutely pointless these days sadly.

 

And yeah, removing items to make the sparse loot tables even more shallow also seems like a bad move. Like, at this point I can already predict with some certainty that the brass trophy, brass candle stick, and brass doorknob will probably be merged into one item eventually, since they all only have a singular purpose. Just like it happened to the candy tin can, the hub cap, and the car air filter.

Streamline the loot pool some more and you have no loot left. Get rid of some more depth and sure, it'll be absolutely idiot proof, but it'll be as deep as a puddle on the road. Eventually other games will fill the void left behind by all the removed depth.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

 

I wasn't talking about the reworked water blocks.

 

He didn't either

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

 

That was overdue. I was talking about the hydration system, and the whole removing glass bottles thing, when there would've been other ways to make it harder to obtain large amounts of drinking water.

 

The new system makes water scarce in early game and makes the game more difficult. That was one reason for the change. Among many solutions they also selected the one that fit with other liquid containers not being simulated by the game. For it probably also counted that it was as easy to implement as other solutions.

 

So this shows you why it was fixed and why this particular solution among many others was selected. So could we please drop the "They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing" complaint that you hear all the time on steam from people simply too lazy to read up on the real reasons behind a change.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

 

As for the crafting of levelled items - yes. Of course the new system leads to more crafting. But we've been there before, back when crafting was 600 quality levels instead of 6. So I just don't see the argument as valid since it reintroduces a bit of depth that should've stayed in the game from earlier already to begin with.

 

It is still not 600 levels and it still is very different from what was in A16

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

 

And the roadmap does exist but it has practically been the same for years. For like 3 years, bandits have been teased as the "next big thing" coming to the game. Well, at one point they were just called NPCs and would've had much more depth to them, but from everything I read about them these days, now they're just zombies with guns essentially.

 

Have you seen zombies ducking behind cover lately? If yes, it seems you have a different version of 7D2D than I have and bandits will bring nothing new. 😉

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

And they're not here yet. Instead the world gen was revamped 10 times, zombies were made slightly more HD 3 times or something, the skill tree system has been redone from scratch like 3 times as well, and the building system has been streamlined to just a single upgrade path as opposed to the multiple fun upgrade paths we had before. Another change that in my personal microcosm of communities I am a member of has seen more negative reception than positive. Yeah it made building more straightforward (kind of - there's so many shapes now, it is simultaneously more complex than ever), but it also reduced some of its depth and the decision making element of what type of building path to go down with the resources at hand. The path is now always the exact same.

 

 

Here I agree, the block system really was reduced in complexity a bit. But mostly it reduced a lot of unnecessary clicks. Still a controversial change.

 

[MechanicalLens]

With the changes to stamina perks, has Flurry of Blows been touched at all? Particularly the +30 stamina back per kill at the final rank.

[Syphon583]

35 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

My favored solution to that was to make jars uncraftable but keep spawning them when a bottle was emptied so that you could slowly build up a supply but even that would reduce the need for the dew collector to be built.

I rarely find myself in a position where I have to craft glass jars. Making them uncraftable alone would not make hydration harder to come by. As it is right now, glass jars are everywhere. While I'm not the biggest fan of the proposed changes, it is definitely a step in the right direction when it comes to make the survival aspect of this game more challenging.

[Shado47]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Have you seen zombies ducking behind cover lately? If yes, it seems you have a different version of 7D2D than I have and bandits will bring nothing new. 😉

 

I mean this is hardly an argument. And alot of cover in the world is 2 blocks high anyways, so it does not make a difference. They have been oftentimes described as zombies with guns, Joel himself mentioned the phrase as well on occasion, so can we stop the pretense?

 

Maybe once factions become a thing, the bandits will be overhauled and merged into that, so you can be on good terms with the factions and there'll be more depth to them.

But thats not how they're currently described.

 

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So this shows you why it was fixed and why this particular solution among many others was selected. So could we please drop the "They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing" complaint that you hear all the time on steam from people simply too lazy to read up on the real reasons behind a change.

 

 

No because I am not lifting my complaint off the steam forums. I have been a member of this particular Forum since 2013, I have played the game since the super early Alphas, I have seen more systems reworked in that time than new systems being added. And not just a slight overhang on one front. The vast majority of game updates have reinvented systems.

 

For other games, when a system is spotted that needs redesign, usually on the drawing board it gets iterated a bunch until the right alternative is found. For 7 Days To Die, it gets iterated on many times update to update (presumably) without any drawing board. Like, the skill tree variants could've all been drafted years ago and the best one been picked and then perfected. Instead, we're once again getting a reinvented version that is already highly controversial before it even comes out.

 

And also... maybe if you hear a complaint "all the time" on steam it shouldn't be ignored completely? Maybe at the end of the day, the customers might actually have a point? Responding to customer feedback with "oh, you just don't get it" seems awfully condescending.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Fanatical_Meat]

2 hours ago, Trankitas said:

It would be accurate to say that A21(Experimental) is not coming out this year? 

Steam sale begins next week, unless they plan on skipping or an extremely limited streamer weekend it’s probably not going to happen. 

[Shado47]

3 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Steam sale begins next week, unless they plan on skipping or an extremely limited streamer weekend it’s probably not going to happen. 

 

I wonder whatever happened to "smaller, more frequent updates". 🙃

 

[Roland]

 I think you make some assumptions that aren't true:

 

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

The water system idea I listed is obviously too big a base game change, but there was really absolutely no need to streamline the hydration system any further from where it already was. Making the water jars harder to craft would've been a far more sufficient fix.

 

The hydration system change is anything but a streamlining change. Attaining hydration security is now a much more complex and goal oriented process than it used to be. You are essentially building a water farm and until you are able to get it implemented there is a scarcity of water that forces you to make choices about how you will utilize your water. I encourage you to change your jar recipe to make jars harder to craft and see if that yields the same results as the A21 change to hydration survival.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing. Reinventing the wheel when its already functional.

 

They develop through iteration and they always have. Maybe you didn't pick up on the pattern until recently but it is how they have done everything since the beginning. Maybe if they would have done all their iterative development behind closed doors so you never witnessed the intermediate versions you would be a lot happier. But they have allowed those wishing to participate in early access to go through the process with them. I've personally been very intrigued by their process. I learned early on not to let myself get too attached to any one version of any particular feature. I think most who are still enjoying the development of this game are of this same mindset.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

And this whole "level by reading" system they're doing now - I mean, the moment you stop and look outside of these forums here you can tell the wider community reception to that change is mostly negative, or at the very least very sceptical.

 

So what? Why should they listen to masses of people who have never tried it and have only heard incomplete descriptions of it and who are filling in all the gaps of their knowledge with the worst case scenarios that their worried minds can concoct? The game has had some form of learning by reading mechanic since about Alpha 11 and this is the latest iteration of what has already been part of the game.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

I was talking about the hydration system, and the whole removing glass bottles thing, when there would've been other ways to make it harder to obtain large amounts of drinking water.

 

The purpose of the change was not to simply make it harder to obtain large amounts of water. It was to give murky water more of a presence in the game, to bring glass jar containers into alignment with all other containers in the game, to add a new type of farming to the game, and to make water survival more interesting. Having played the system, in my opinion, the change they went with accomplishes all of these things.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

As for the crafting of levelled items - yes. Of course the new system leads to more crafting. But we've been there before, back when crafting was 600 quality levels instead of 6. So I just don't see the argument as valid since it reintroduces a bit of depth that should've stayed in the game from earlier already to begin with.

 

The 600 quality levels and the new system are so completely different from each other that it really shows your lack of understanding of the new system which is fair since you haven't been able to play it. What is not fair is to act like you understand both equally and so can lump them together as the same thing. Even in the 600 point system once you got your stone axe to 600 your fireaxe and steel axe were also automatically 600. The new system is different in that you are going to progress through the quality levels for all tiers of weapons and tools which not only means more crafting but also means no automatic skipping of about 70% of the progression. The depth of crafting the new system adds is completely fresh and not at all in any way the same as what might have been lost when we went to 1-6 quality levels.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

And the roadmap does exist but it has practically been the same for years. For like 3 years, bandits have been teased as the "next big thing" coming to the game. Well, at one point they were just called NPCs and would've had much more depth to them, but from everything I read about them these days, now they're just zombies with guns essentially. And they're not here yet.

 

Bandits have always been referred to as bandits even during the kickstarter campaign. NPCs were also mentioned and were inclusive of traders and bandits. Followers were considered but ultimately dropped.  Everything I have read and written about bandits is that in their first iteration they will be basic-- like zombies with weapons but that would simply be the very first implementation of them. Now that they have been pushed to A22 they will probably be more sophisticated. But I have never read a single official source that has stated that the dev's intention is to make bandits like zombies with guns and end there.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

Instead the world gen was revamped 10 times, zombies were made slightly more HD 3 times or something, the skill tree system has been redone from scratch like 3 times as well

 

Nothing has been completely revamped or redone from scratch. Everything has evolved from already existing versions. I know it makes it sound so much more dramatic to say but it just isn't true. You show me a system you think was redone from scratch and I will show you how it developed over time from one version to the next. Even the new learn by reading system which was a dramatic change simply separated the crafting recipes from the perks and used magazines to unlock them. Nothing about the concept is a complete start over from scratch. The perk trees remain mostly the same from A20. I guarantee that nobody is going to be confused about how to use a magazine.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

and the building system has been streamlined to just a single upgrade path as opposed to the multiple fun upgrade paths we had before. Another change that in my personal microcosm of communities I am a member of has seen more negative reception than positive. Yeah it made building more straightforward (kind of - there's so many shapes now, it is simultaneously more complex than ever), but it also reduced some of its depth and the decision making element of what type of building path to go down with the resources at hand. The path is now always the exact same.

 

This I agree with. Building is a lot more simplistic than it used to be. That was definitely a tough decision the devs had to make. Both Joel and Rick enjoy the building aspect of the game and see it as very important. Only they can say why they decided to streamline the building the way they did. They obviously want plenty of shapes to be available (there are many more coming in A21) but for some reason the various upgrade paths weren't as important to them.

[Halcyon]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

 I think you make some assumptions that aren't true:

 

 

 

The hydration system change is anything but a streamlining change. Attaining hydration security is now a much more complex and goal oriented process than it used to be. You are essentially building a water farm and until you are able to get it implemented there is a scarcity of water that forces you to make choices about how you will utilize your water. I encourage you to change your jar recipe to make jars harder to craft and see if that yields the same results as the A21 change to hydration survival.

 

 

They develop through iteration and they always have. Maybe you didn't pick up on the pattern until recently but it is how they have done everything since the beginning. Maybe if they would have done all their iterative development behind closed doors so you never witnessed the intermediate versions you would be a lot happier. But they have allowed those wishing to participate in early access to go through the process with them. I've personally been very intrigued by their process. I learned early on not to let myself get too attached to any one version of any particular feature. I think most who are still enjoying the development of this game are of this same mindset.

 

 

So what? Why should they listen to masses of people who have never tried it and have only heard incomplete descriptions of it and who are filling in all the gaps of their knowledge with the worst case scenarios that their worried minds can concoct? The game has had some form of learning by reading mechanic since about Alpha 11 and this is the latest iteration of what has already been part of the game.

 

 

The purpose of the change was not to simply make it harder to obtain large amounts of water. It was to give murky water more of a presence in the game, to bring glass jar containers into alignment with all other containers in the game, to add a new type of farming to the game, and to make water survival more interesting. Having played the system, in my opinion, the change they went with accomplishes all of these things.

 

 

The 600 quality levels and the new system are so completely different from each other that it really shows your lack of understanding of the new system which is fair since you haven't been able to play it. What is not fair is to act like you understand both equally and so can lump them together as the same thing. Even in the 600 point system once you got your stone axe to 600 your fireaxe and steel axe were also automatically 600. The new system is different in that you are going to progress through the quality levels for all tiers of weapons and tools which not only means more crafting but also means no automatic skipping of about 70% of the progression. The depth of crafting the new system adds is completely fresh and not at all in any way the same as what might have been lost when we went to 1-6 quality levels.

 

 

Bandits have always been referred to as bandits even during the kickstarter campaign. NPCs were also mentioned and were inclusive of traders and bandits. Followers were considered but ultimately dropped.  Everything I have read and written about bandits is that in their first iteration they will be basic-- like zombies with weapons but that would simply be the very first implementation of them. Now that they have been pushed to A22 they will probably be more sophisticated. But I have never read a single official source that has stated that the dev's intention is to make bandits like zombies with guns and end there.

 

 

Nothing has been completely revamped or redone from scratch. Everything has evolved from already existing versions. I know it makes it sound so much more dramatic to say but it just isn't true. You show me a system you think was redone from scratch and I will show you how it developed over time from one version to the next. Even the new learn by reading system which was a dramatic change simply separated the crafting recipes from the perks and used magazines to unlock them. Nothing about the concept is a complete start over from scratch. The perk trees remain mostly the same from A20. I guarantee that nobody is going to be confused about how to use a magazine.

 

 

This I agree with. Building is a lot more simplistic than it used to be. That was definitely a tough decision the devs had to make. Both Joel and Rick enjoy the building aspect of the game and see it as very important. Only they can say why they decided to streamline the building the way they did. They obviously want plenty of shapes to be available (there are many more coming in A21) but for some reason the various upgrade paths weren't as important to them.

 

Shado's gonna hit Roland with the:

[Fanatical_Meat]

9 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

 

I wonder whatever happened to "smaller, more frequent updates". 🙃

 

Yeah I had a similar thought but whatever, we can deal with it.

[Roland]

14 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

Joel himself mentioned the phrase as well on occasion, so can we stop the pretense?

 

First of all when was the last occasion you heard Joel say anything?

 

Second of all, "zombies with guns" was mentioned by faatal occasionally to describe the very first iteration of them so as to curb unrealistic expectations of fans. They never claimed that bandits were being designed to forevermore be zombies with guns.

 

Third of all, we can all tell by now that if bandits do release initially as "bandits with guns" and then they update them to have more depth you will complain that they have completely overhauled Bandits from scratch for the second time...

[Shado47]

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

 I think you make some assumptions that aren't true:

 

 

 

The hydration system change is anything but a streamlining change. Attaining hydration security is now a much more complex and goal oriented process than it used to be. You are essentially building a water farm and until you are able to get it implemented there is a scarcity of water that forces you to make choices about how you will utilize your water. I encourage you to change your jar recipe to make jars harder to craft and see if that yields the same results as the A21 change to hydration survival.

 

 

They develop through iteration and they always have. Maybe you didn't pick up on the pattern until recently but it is how they have done everything since the beginning. Maybe if they would have done all their iterative development behind closed doors so you never witnessed the intermediate versions you would be a lot happier. But they have allowed those wishing to participate in early access to go through the process with them. I've personally been very intrigued by their process. I learned early on not to let myself get too attached to any one version of any particular feature. I think most who are still enjoying the development of this game are of this same mindset.

 

 

So what? Why should they listen to masses of people who have never tried it and have only heard incomplete descriptions of it and who are filling in all the gaps of their knowledge with the worst case scenarios that their worried minds can concoct? The game has had some form of learning by reading mechanic since about Alpha 11 and this is the latest iteration of what has already been part of the game.

 

 

The purpose of the change was not to simply make it harder to obtain large amounts of water. It was to give murky water more of a presence in the game, to bring glass jar containers into alignment with all other containers in the game, to add a new type of farming to the game, and to make water survival more interesting. Having played the system, in my opinion, the change they went with accomplishes all of these things.

 

 

The 600 quality levels and the new system are so completely different from each other that it really shows your lack of understanding of the new system which is fair since you haven't been able to play it. What is not fair is to act like you understand both equally and so can lump them together as the same thing. Even in the 600 point system once you got your stone axe to 600 your fireaxe and steel axe were also automatically 600. The new system is different in that you are going to progress through the quality levels for all tiers of weapons and tools which not only means more crafting but also means no automatic skipping of about 70% of the progression. The depth of crafting the new system adds is completely fresh and not at all in any way the same as what might have been lost when we went to 1-6 quality levels.

 

Bandits have always been referred to as bandits even during the kickstarter campaign. NPCs were also mentioned and were inclusive of traders and bandits. Followers were considered but ultimately dropped.  Everything I have read and written about bandits is that in their first iteration they will be basic-- like zombies with weapons but that would simply be the very first implementation of them. Now that they have been pushed to A22 they will probably be more sophisticated. But I have never read a single official source that has stated that the dev's intention is to make bandits like zombies with guns and end there.

 

All I get from this is a condescending "you don't get it" and "oh, anyone from the wider online community who is sceptical must've not played the game before".

 

Also I never said "bring back the 600 crafting quality levels". The new system sounds good, and it wasn't my criticism at all. Instead what I commented on was the needless change from the 600 qualities to the 6 qualities that simplified the whole thing massively and took alot of depth out of it, just for the devs to now do a 180 again to bring back more complexity into it. Like, its great that it is getting more complex again. Could've just been built as an iteration of the 600 qualities system though, as opposed to the 6 qualities system. Both still were grouped up into 6 main groups. There was a step backwards inbetween that just wasn't necessary.

 

Quote

Nothing has been completely revamped or redone from scratch.

 

This is just straight up false and you know it.

 

Quote

This I agree with. Building is a lot more simplistic than it used to be. That was definitely a tough decision the devs had to make. Both Joel and Rick enjoy the building aspect of the game and see it as very important. Only they can say why they decided to streamline the building the way they did. They obviously want plenty of shapes to be available (there are many more coming in A21) but for some reason the various upgrade paths weren't as important to them.

 

Glad we're on the same page here. Yeah, my claim is not that everytime they sacrifice depth it is to the game's detriment. Removing the sharpening of stones being required to make a stone axe was definitely a good choice, lol. And there are many more examples like this. But removal of certain biomes, building upgrade paths that suited different playstyles, etc.

 

I loved the old days when you had to build a plywood frame to pour concrete into and then it had to harden first and then the frame would pop. Or when you had to stack cobblestones into a wire frame level by level and it visually showed in the model. That was fun building with alot of depth and very satisfying. It had a better realism and was less arcadey, and I think the game should've gone on to do more of that, not less.

 

  

6 minutes ago, Halcyon said:

 

Shado's gonna hit Roland with the: [pic cut for convenience]
 

Nah I enjoy reading long responses.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Roland]

6 minutes ago, Halcyon said:

 

Shado's gonna hit Roland with the:

 

That's fine. Kids were taking their finals.

[Shado47]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

First of all when was the last occasion you heard Joel say anything?

 

I don't religiously follow here, but I remember long dev streams of Joel discussing the bandits. Does that count?

 

Quote

Second of all, "zombies with guns" was mentioned by faatal occasionally to describe the very first iteration of them so as to curb unrealistic expectations of fans. They never claimed that bandits were being designed to forevermore be zombies with guns.

 

And I never claimed that either. Could do them properly right away though, don't you think? Instead of doing a super bare bones version first that people get used to, and then changing them around again completely? And then they could still be improved from there, without it completely changing every aspect of them.

 

Quote

Third of all, we can all tell by now that if bandits do release initially as "bandits with guns" and then they update them to have more depth you will complain that they have completely overhauled Bandits from scratch for the second time...

 

See the hysterical thing here is that I wouldn't mind the Bandits being improved, but you certainly would get that reaction from some people if the initial version is just a low effort "that'll do" version. But I like how you immediately come at me with the "oh, you'd just hate on that change as well" as if I am hating for the sake of hating. I love this game, and every one of my arguments comes with alot of substance and I am backing them up. So stop the condescending tone if you wanna keep up the conversation.