Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[faatal]

5 hours ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

Q to devs:

Does unity support something like screen space global illumination? How performance heavy would it be to implement this in C#? Are there any conversions to pure C++ available in Unity Engine?

Unity does, but it seems to only be for the HDRP, which we do not use. Graphics effects are generally done in shader code, not c# or c++.

[Slingblade2040]

12 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Using an underground base before zombies could dig as a way to avoid BM was an exploit.  They will of course fix exploits.  You can still have underground bases.  But you can't use them to avoid BM.  If you don't want to deal with BM, turn it off.  But exploiting the game isn't something they'll allow to last.  And they shouldn't.  They have repeatedly said the zombie loot issue was related to performance.  Whether bags stay as they are or get made into something at least a little better is hard to say.  I'd say that the better option would be to despawn any zombie without loot and only leave zombies that have loot instead of a bag.  Probably still more issue with performance than just bags as I'm sure zombies use more resources than bags but I wouldn't think it would be all that bad.  But I don't have the performance data to say that for certain.

 

As far as the duct tape, it really wasn't a strange statement.  They want you to have a challenge in the game and being able to mass produce duct tape within a couple of days is rather ridiculous.  Besides, there were other reasons for the change.

 

I was talking about the ability to loot in the wasteland.  They don't care if you do that.  They'll most likely make it a very challenging thing to do - because it should be - but they aren't going to prevent you from doing so.

Calling something an exploit was a lame excuse to say we don't want people building underground especially if its in a single player world which doesnt impact anyone else besides the player or if they are playing on a MP server which the pimps themselves dont run.  ah yes mass produce duct tape while ignoring all the other items needed to craft it like bones, wood for the camp fire or the very gated Chem station. None of the reasons given are valid, hell the fact we have a literal Pot and can't fill it with water from a lake or creek is dumb.  It's only a matter of time till they nerf the helmet filter mod because I'm sure they will use the excuse of not fair for it to provide infinite water from a source.

 

They call things exploits when it's convenient. Hell if you want to see an exploit look at the easy resetting of PoIs because of the quests especially with one's where the end loot can be accessed very easily or resetting a book store for very easy double looting of magazines.

 

Now a real exploit was the whole stacking of ores then unstacking for massive exp which really made a huge impact. 

[faatal]

23 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

@faatal I have a question about the electric fences. I noticed that the wire between two fences snaps to a lower point than in A20. Has that something to do with the bug that the wire eventually jumps over to a point in the distance and when you restarted the game everything was back to normal ?

 

I lowered the height as short zombies would just walk under it and it was reported as a bug. Zombie controller collider height was shortened, so they stack better, which also made more of them miss the wire. In a typical case, I would not be putting a wire high above the ground where enemies walk under it, but lowering it even more may make other issues, so it landed where it is now.

[canadianbluebeer]

13 minutes ago, faatal said:

I lowered the height as short zombies would just walk under it and it was reported as a bug. Zombie controller collider height was shortened, so they stack better, which also made more of them miss the wire. In a typical case, I would not be putting a wire high above the ground where enemies walk under it, but lowering it even more may make other issues, so it landed where it is now.

 

I always used to place the wires 1 block down.  eg:

 

main level:  dart trap(s)  behind them, the tripwires posts

behind that, but 1 block down, the electric posts.  

 

that caught the spiders and everything else. 

 

perhaps 2 connect points for the posts, or 2 types of posts?  high and low?

(probably easier to make 2 types of posts)

 

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

main level:  dart trap(s)  behind them, the tripwires posts

behind that, but 1 block down, the electric posts.  

 

that caught the spiders and everything else. 

In A21 you get the same result if you turn the electric fences upside down. 

[Mister Forgash]

1 hour ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Calling something an exploit was a lame excuse to say we don't want people building underground especially if its in a single player world which doesnt impact anyone else besides the player or if they are playing on a MP server which the pimps themselves dont run.

 

1 hour ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Now a real exploit was the whole stacking of ores then unstacking for massive exp which really made a huge impact. 

So, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but... The dev's aren't in a position to determine what an exploit is ... And you are?

 

.. And yes, the stacking ore for a huge XP boost is broken, but at least it only works a couple of times.. You could re-use the same 3-block hole every horde night of the play-through as long as you put a single frame on top after you crawled in. ... Mmmhmm, sounds legit.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Calling something an exploit was a lame excuse to say we don't want people building underground especially if its in a single player world which doesnt impact anyone else besides the player or if they are playing on a MP server which the pimps themselves dont run.  ah yes mass produce duct tape while ignoring all the other items needed to craft it like bones, wood for the camp fire or the very gated Chem station. None of the reasons given are valid, hell the fact we have a literal Pot and can't fill it with water from a lake or creek is dumb.  It's only a matter of time till they nerf the helmet filter mod because I'm sure they will use the excuse of not fair for it to provide infinite water from a source.

 

They call things exploits when it's convenient. Hell if you want to see an exploit look at the easy resetting of PoIs because of the quests especially with one's where the end loot can be accessed very easily or resetting a book store for very easy double looting of magazines.

 

Now a real exploit was the whole stacking of ores then unstacking for massive exp which really made a huge impact. 

It is an exploit.  And it's still an exploit in single player.  And if you don't want to play BM, especially in single player, why not just turn it off?  In any case, you can build underground bases just fine.  They work.  But you can't avoid the horde during BM that way and you shouldn't be able to.

 

Other exploits like what you mentioned are likely to be fixed before gold as well, so don't be too surprised if they are.

 

Ore stacking for XP was an exploit, yes.  But it was limited in that you could only do it so many times before finishing returns made it pointless.  But they also fixed that exploit.

[Slingblade2040]

13 minutes ago, Riamus said:

It is an exploit.  And it's still an exploit in single player.  And if you don't want to play BM, especially in single player, why not just turn it off?  In any case, you can build underground bases just fine.  They work.  But you can't avoid the horde during BM that way and you shouldn't be able to.

 

Other exploits like what you mentioned are likely to be fixed before gold as well, so don't be too surprised if they are.

 

Ore stacking for XP was an exploit, yes.  But it was limited in that you could only do it so many times before finishing returns made it pointless.  But they also fixed that exploit.

Calling that an exploit when blood moon can be turned off is silly. In MP guess you are SoL and have to log off and log back on once it's done otherwise.  Adding a mechanic because you don't like players avoiding the blood moon while at the same time making that option available is kinda ridiculous. 

 

It's on the same level as saying we don't want folks mass producing items while ignoring everything else in the recipe and the time it takes to not only acquire those items but also to craft them. 

 

If changes are going to be made atleast make it make sense as to why those changes are implemented instead of we don't like the players doing this because at that point it seems like you are mad folks aren't playing an open world survival game the way you want them to play it. 

[Roland]

Congratulations Fun Pimps! You’ve broken your past record again!!  People are loving A21. 
 

[unholyjoe]

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

Congratulations Fun Pimps! You’ve broken your past record again!!  People are loving A21. 
 

slow in your old age arent you... not that  i am saying anything about it.... but just saying

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Roland]

44 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

slow in your old age arent you... not that  i am saying anything about it.... but just saying

Blame church! I copied the pic just before but couldn’t upload until after. Look at all those sinners! Lol

[AtomicUs5000]

Is there a future for the random event/encounter system idea?
I've always looked forward to hearing more about it, but it's rarely mentioned.

[unholyjoe]

27 minutes ago, Roland said:

Blame church! I copied the pic just before but couldn’t upload until after. Look at all those sinners! Lol

those sinners were playing 7dtd on their laptops while in church... ooops

[Kosmic Kerman]

4 hours ago, faatal said:

I lowered the height as short zombies would just walk under it and it was reported as a bug. Zombie controller collider height was shortened, so they stack better, which also made more of them miss the wire. In a typical case, I would not be putting a wire high above the ground where enemies walk under it, but lowering it even more may make other issues, so it landed where it is now.

 

It seems to be at a good height now. It caught dogs and spider zombies. It' not the end of the world if it doesn't catch pure crawlers (which it may do but I haven't tested it). If people want a whole block fully covered they can go top to bottom with their fences or criss-cross poles at different heights.

 

ETA: However I was using upside down electric fences so maybe this is unique to the orientation I was using.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

Is it still meant to rain and be foggy so much? In A20 and 21 it rains a LOT everywhere, and is near constantly foggy in the snow biome. And now in A21, rain during daylight means nighttime-levels of darkness inside buildings and even outside sometimes.

[Ralathar44]

43 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

Is it still meant to rain and be foggy so much? In A20 and 21 it rains a LOT everywhere, and is near constantly foggy in the snow biome. And now in A21, rain during daylight means nighttime-levels of darkness inside buildings and even outside sometimes.

IMO nighttime darkness inside of buildings during heavy rain that blocks out the sun is great.  Bring torches, when done take the torches with you.  Same with the darkness outside.  And when it happens at night you basically can only see yourself and the road and glowing eyes :D.  And fog happens reasonably often too.  I LOVE it!  It also means you need to put more torches at your base meaning slightly more heat :P. 

The only bit of feedback I have though is that rooms do not respect you removing blinds and curtains.  I wish that if you took out blinds and curtains in a room it got a little brighter, even if its only a little.  Or if you bust a few holes in the wall.  But im sure that's prolly complicated to code lol.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

[Neminsis]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

With the way magazines are set up they would probably just decrease the number of magazines you need to reach every milestone.

 

But no matter which method they would employ it would also change the balance for the whole game, because players who play it normally would get the workstations in no time if those drop more in loot and can be bought more often at the trader.

I think that the loot probability distribution route would provide finer tuning with enough variance to keep things interesting, and well, that's how pretty much how everything else is balanced already and it's all set up for it. 
 

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

I can think of one solution that would specifically address the ungrouped SP miner/builder (who is the only one with a problem really) without changing overall balance too much: If you perk into AdvancedEngineering you always have a very small chance to find a diamond while digging below ground (i.e. whenever destroying a dirt block). And you can trade in diamonds for specific magazines like forge ahead at the trader. 

I wouldn't say that it's just the miner, it's also the scrapper and the farmer, and in a broader sense anyone that just wants to pick up road trash. The only trees that don't have a gathering skill or equivalent production skill early game are Agility and Intellect, one's a ninja and the other has better barter and daring adventurer, so...

Although stay at homes are most often builders, I've left out building exp to simplify because you spend more time gathering resources and thus more food/water than you actually do building. Building exp is just in a good place for every tree.

10 hours ago, Laran Mithras said:

BM hordes tear through cobblestone fast.

The ai is kind of broken right now from what I can tell. It looks like they're having trouble switching tasks e.g. beating on walls and not repathing. It'll be fixed eventually.

No need to rush into modding it, unless you're into that sort of thing. I don't judge.

[Neminsis]

6 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Why would I intentionally play a game in a way its not intended to be played and then complain about it?

How can you tell if it's not intended, or just incomplete. Why do you think you have the ability to sell bulk materials and low level craftables like stone arrows to the trader? The devs have said over and over that it's not complete and that it's an iterative process. Besides, if I was actually complaining it wouldn't sound like, "hey, here's a potential balance issue that you might want to look at while this is still in the testing phase, and here's how I think you can solve it with the lowest amount of effort." I guarantee you that any dev that read that just nodded, maybe rolled their eyes a bit and said to themselves, "I know" with a pained expression while they were looking at a ginormous to do list. What you might not have noticed is what they did not do, they did not jump on my case about how I'm trying to do something unintended and then harass me for two days like some weird fan boy on a mission.

Could you please just stop quoting me. I really don't want to engage with your gatekeeping nonsense any further.

[Ralathar44]

8 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

How can you tell if it's not intended, or just incomplete.

Never play a game based on what you think it might be one day or what it could be.  That route leads to Star Citizen lol.  Even IF the devs have your exact ideas in mind (which is highly unlikely, not just for you but for any of us) it doesn't mean it'll work out.  Ziplines were intended, the behemoth was intended,  But they were cut.  Could they still happen one day?  You never know, crazier things have happened, but this is the game we have.

Similar even the game that exists today is not guaranteed.  It may play completely differently from now 5 years from now.  And honestly there is nothing wrong with that.  Gamers have this flawed idea that games have a final destination and perfect end result and vision.  But that's false.  Games simply stop being developed at some point.  For single player single purchase games this is usually when the developer either hits the goals they want to or starts work on a new project because sales of single purchase single player games drop off and become smaller over time, which is why its called a "tail".

However in the realm of infinite money continued development there is still no end goal.  There cannot be.  The moment you are happy and stop development the playerbase stagnates and starts to shrink and die.  Maybe 0.00001% of games sustain at this point.  A small handful of names like L4D or TF2, but those games are either free or so close on sale they are effectively free...otherwise even they would not have sustained.  And they are either monetized or used as loss leaders for an entire platform.

Like it or not, multiplayer or singleplayer, development always has to keep a game changing so it doesn't get stale and die.  and ironically even bad changes that you can later follow with good changes are still better than no changes for 99.999% of games.  One of the first games I know of that learned this lesson was Starcraft 1.  It got so well balanced at one point it was near perfect and they didn't want to touch it.  But then the unexpected happened, the game become completely "solved" and strategy mostly disappeared.  It became a game mostly about APM and knowing the existing strategies.  Interest fell off, the playerbase started shrinking, and Blizzard did the only thing it could...it started making changes again intentionally balancing the game so the cycle of balance could begin again and the game recovered its interest and playerbase.  So the previous goal was perfect balance, the new goal was staying close to perfect balance but having continual change.

[Old Crow]

14 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

With the way magazines are set up they would probably just decrease the number of magazines you need to reach every milestone.

 

But no matter which method they would employ it would also change the balance for the whole game, because players who play it normally would get the workstations in no time if those drop more in loot and can be bought more often at the trader.

 

I can think of one solution that would specifically address the ungrouped SP miner/builder (who is the only one with a problem really) without changing overall balance too much: If you perk into AdvancedEngineering you always have a very small chance to find a diamond while digging below ground (i.e. whenever destroying a dirt block). And you can trade in diamonds for specific magazines like forge ahead at the trader. 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, this is a big problem I personally have. I maxxed out the farming magazines in a couple of in-game days, but Forge Ahead magazines are way too rare, even specced into it. I don't think we should be getting every workstation made by day 2, but an decrease in the rarity of certain books, coupled with a slight decrease in how many are needed, would help a lot. The answer should not be "just increase your loot abundance to 200%" - it should be better balanced for the default setting.

 

[Ralathar44]

17 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

Honestly, this is a big problem I personally have. I maxxed out the farming magazines in a couple of in-game days, but Forge Ahead magazines are way too rare, even specced into it. I don't think we should be getting every workstation made by day 2, but an decrease in the rarity of certain books, coupled with a slight decrease in how many are needed, would help a lot. The answer should not be "just increase your loot abundance to 200%" - it should be better balanced for the default setting.

 

Farming and Workstations are non-comparable.  Farming has always unlocked way faster and is intended to max out early mid game while workstations and steel max out end game.  Farming in the last update took 7 points to unlock everything.  Workstations int he last update took 15.  Why are you expecting them to take the same amount of time simply because we're using magazines now?

Most people will prolly be getting steel/cement at day 30+, like normal.  I'd expect somewhere between 1-2 weeks per workstation, depending on how you play and your spec.  Maybe a bit longer.  And trust me you can survive just fine to day 35+ with cobblestone and iron.  Steel and concrete isnt even needed until demolishers, its just bonus.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

Farming and Workstations are non-comparable.  Farming has always unlocked way faster and is intended to max out early mid game while workstations and steel max out end game.  Farming in the last update took 7 points to unlock everything.  Workstations int he last update took 15.  Why are you expecting them to take the same amount of time simply because we're using magazines now?

Most people will prolly be getting steel/cement at day 30+, like normal.  I'd expect somewhere between 1-2 weeks per workstation, depending on how you play and your spec.

 

I'll admit, that was a bad comparison. I'm not asking for a mere 20 magazines to unlock every single workstation, though.

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

 

I'll admit, that was a bad comparison. I'm not asking for a mere 20 magazines to unlock every single workstation, though.

So far in my two runs my workbench was up on day 21 in my completely unspec'd run with no trader quests.  My spec'd run with trader quests is on day 5 and already has 7/10 magazines needed for it.  Prolly on track for a 7 day workbench, 10 at worst.  1 point in advanced engineering, 1 in lock picking (also raises workstation magazine chances!).  This run I've pretty much just been straight looting and doing POIs starting out.  Though I spawned right near a POI with a zombie dog and while I killed it I've been infected for 5 days straight, currently at 42% infection.   FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU  lol.

EDIT: Achieved Workbench on Day 5, but Oh Jesus it got wwwoooorrsssee.  How am I still alive? :D. That is literally the most hp I'm allowed to have through the injuries haha.

s://imgur.com/wcNa

Edited June 19, 2023 by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

I find it a bit cumbersome having to go between an item's crafting requirements page and the crafting skill menu.

For example if I search for "anvil" and see it needs workstation lv25, I'd like to know how far away I am from that, which means I have to go to the crafting menu and see what level I'm at (It doesn't really help either that the list isn't in alphabetical order, so I have to remember which categories are on which page). It would be nice if the anvil page itself would tell me what level I am relative to the requirement (ex: 10/25), or a way for me to go straight to that page in the crafting menu

 

Similarly, for crafting skills that have multiple items in a tier, each with their own level unlock (workstation tier 2 is a good example), it's a bit cumbersome having to go back and forth between the item page and crafting skill menu. If I go to Workstations tier 2 and see "lockpicks" and want to know what level requirement it is, I have to click on it and go to the item description (and see it's lv15). But say now I want to see what the requirement is for Advanced Belows, since it was next to the lockpick on the list, I have to go back to the crafting skill menu and click Workstation again (it's lv 20). It would be nice if it would tell you the level requirements from that crafting skill menu if there are multiple items in that tier. (Maybe hovering over it?) Another good example is Electrician Tier 4, there's a bunch of items in there and I don't know if they all share the same level requirements or not, and finding out would require a lot of navigating back and forth.

Edited June 19, 2023 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Riamus]

2 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

I find it a bit cumbersome having to go between an item's crafting requirements page and the crafting skill menu.

For example if I search for "anvil" and see it needs workstation lv25, I'd like to know how far away I am from that, which means I have to go to the crafting menu and see what level I'm at. It would be nice if the anvil page itself would tell me what level I am relative to the requirement (ex: 10/25), or a way for me to go straight to that page in the crafting menu

 

Similarly, for crafting skills that have multiple items in a tier, each with their own level unlock (workstation tier 2 is a good example), it's a bit cumbersome having to go back and forth between the item page and crafting skill menu. If I go to Workstations tier 2 and see "lockpicks" and want to know what level requirement it is, I have to click on it and go to the item description (and see it's lv15). But say now I want to see what the requirement is for Advanced Belows, since it was next to the lockpick on the list, I have to go back to the crafting skill menu and click Workstation again (it's lv 20). It would be nice if it would tell you the level requirements from that crafting skill menu if there are multiple items in that tier. (Maybe hovering over it?) Another good example is Electrician Tier 4, there's a bunch of items in there and I don't know if they all share the same level requirements or not, and finding out would require a lot of navigating back and forth.

Not sure about going from crafting to magazines as I haven't tried it but you can go from magazines to crafting.  On the magazine tab, pick a magazine you way.  Click once on the tier bar for that magazines (the one that tells you what is unlocked and what is next to unlock).  This will select the tier, which makes the items unlocked by that tier stay on screen above the tier bars instead of disappearing when you move your mouse.  Now, click on the item and it'll take you to the crafting screen for that item.  You do still have to click the item in the list but it takes you to the right spot.  I think it should select the item on the crafting menu as well as just taking you there but this is pretty close.