Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[crazywildfire]

32 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

Roland, the best part i like about no more jars is..

 

1. i dont have a cabinet full of empty jars like in previous alphas.

2. i dont have to worry about going to the desert to get sand to make glass and then forge the jars.

3. less crap taking up needed space in inventory or storage chests.

4. if thirsty stop by any body of water and drink a handful or 2 or take out a jar or so of good water from dew collector.

 

 

 

1- jars stacked so high that was never truly a problem lol.

 

2- as many jars in the world never once did I go collect sand just to make jars. Actually I don't recall ever making jars period even less 100 on loot abundance lol.

 

3- again jars stacked so high never had to make a hard choice in storage to throw them out. Never made an extra storage box because of to many jars.... inventory meh takes up one spot. Never took more then one spot by the time I made it back to base to empty inventory due to other items filled it up not jars.

 

4- sorry that dont really defend empty jars. One will still most likely carry water with them as it will be cleaner to drink then open water sources. So not sure what this one has to do with empty jars. But ok

 

.......

 

But I do see what you trying to do and all good just not really good examples. I still stick by my statement on how I feel this. I'm not for it but not against it. It just meh to me. 

 

 

Edit- back to #1 reading back and seeing what Roland said. You mean when looting? In that case meh it part of looting isn't it? What fun is it to always find good stuff? Idk that just me. Everyone is different. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by crazywildfire (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Propably already been answered and/or discussed or i missed the answer, but i just realized that strength is still a must in A21 unless you want to spend a lot more time on mining than necessary? So nothing really changes with strength if playing SP.

 

Unless every attribute also get´s a mining skill like planned with flurry of blows.

[Roland]

45 minutes ago, crazywildfire said:

Edit- back to #1 reading back and seeing what Roland said. You mean when looting? In that case meh it part of looting isn't it? What fun is it to always find good stuff? Idk that just me. Everyone is different. 

 

Well, relatively speaking good stuff. Its not all OP stuff at all but it is useful stuff. More seeds and raw veggies. Magazines. Crafting ingredients that you will use. It's hard to say why but empty bottles were always kind of meh maybe because after Day 1 or 2 you already had all you would ever need so they were just needless useless placeholders that are now gone so you are finding things that while technically junk it is stuff you can use and need.

It is much more rewarding without the empty bottles. You may wish for them when most of what you find has some usefulness to it and you think, why do I always get good stuff now? This sucks! But so far I haven't missed them being gone from the loot tables.

 

41 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Propably already been answered and/or discussed or i missed the answer, but i just realized that strength is still a must in A21 unless you want to spend a lot more time on mining than necessary? So nothing really changes with strength if playing SP.

 

Unless every attribute also get´s a mining skill like planned with flurry of blows.

 

No...for whatever reason they think you must be strong in order to mine well. The audacity!

Edited January 11, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Riamus]

On 1/8/2023 at 4:07 PM, Jost Amman said:

I know it's just a small detail... but I'd rather have them add a new type of item named "ruined book/magazine" that you can scrap to paper. Lots of people complain about finding tons of paper in the bookshelves of a Crack a Book store, and don't understand the paper represents ruined books and magazines.

 

That would add a bit of "realism" IMO and ease players into understanding why so much scrap.

It does definitely add to the RP value of the game to have something like that instead of just paper.  That said, it isn't an uncommon conversation to just call garbage paper products "paper".  I am currently playing Encased and you often find "paper" in various places where it clearly would be some specific paper item rather than just paper.  But it works. People understand what it means.  The complaints people have about getting paper in bookstores is that you get so much of it and so few schematics or magazines.  Fishing it to ruined book isn't going to stop the complaints.  The complaints aren't about the name, but about how much "junk" you get.  From the sounds of things, this won't be a problem in A21 as paper will be less common as magazines start to become more common.

[armidil0]

I just want to ask a clarifying question, there's no javelin type weapon to replace the current spear power attack? Like a thrown only weapon, under the spear perks.

 

I think it could fill a niche for silent non bow short/mid range attacks.

 

For the hitting a zombie through the hole in a door thing: does that work with clubs and sledgehammers too? Or just stabbing weapons and guns?

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, armidil0 said:

I just want to ask a clarifying question, there's no javelin type weapon to replace the current spear power attack? Like a thrown only weapon, under the spear perks.

 

I think it could fill a niche for silent non bow short/mid range attacks.

 

For the hitting a zombie through the hole in a door thing: does that work with clubs and sledgehammers too? Or just stabbing weapons and guns?

I did love the throwing mechanic, as annoying as losing a modded spear from time to time could be .  I would like the feature back, or at least as a legendary effect, but with a twist: an autoretrieve mod, like a rope or a chain or something that prevents us from losing the weapon and places it in your inventory upon throwing it (if full, it tosses the spear into the ground next to you). 

 

How awesome would that be?

 

As for your question, they did say yes, the holes are for every weapon, but don't expect 100% accuracy with weapons like a sledge, or rather you can expect it but due to the glancing blows it could also damage the hole/door itself.

[Grue]

8 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Aren't you sticking a bit too much to the extremes here?

 

base building is of course one strong aspect in the game, as well as looting always has been. Or mining. And fighting. And the list goes on.

The new system does encourage looting more, but still has to balance between all the aspects,

because in single player you just have to do them all to survive...and of course this variety of different aspects is mostly what makes the fun in the game.

 

People who do exclusively one aspect have to be part of a group that does the rest, they all depend on each other.

Your playmates depend on you building/fortifying the base, 

while you depend on them bringing you materials, food, guns, ammo,...

 

So why can't they bring you the corresponding magazines about building/crafting they find?

They will all find few because there's a bigger chance that they find the ones they specced in...but they're a group, so it should add up for you one lonely housekeeper hero.

 

Granted it's probably not the majority of people, but neither is it an edge case for people who play in groups to divide their labor, for example on a community server supporting a streamer. Or even solo gamers who want to play a low-loot, self-sufficient type of game.

 

My point is to shine a light on the fact that not everyone plays the game as a roving murder-hobo rummaging through one POI after another.

 

If they keep chasing that lowest common denominator, it becomes recursive, and everyone plays that way because it is the only way left to play.

It would be nice if the devs would kindly take their thumb off the scales to force gameplay in that direction.

 

And you are right, one would hope that a good group would help out the support people back home building things and making the hobo stew for everyone.

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't know what you are trying to say by the "Let them eat cake" reference. Your analogy for removing chopping wood and mining from the game are poor. The ability to harvest water has not been removed. Build some dew collectors and you will harvest plenty of water that can be carried around. Find jars of water in POIs and you are harvesting water that can be carried around. Go to a river and drink your fill which is harvesting water as well. That water can't be carried away but it is harvested and used. 

I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.

https://gprivate.com/62uqp

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

What necessitates the ability to collect surface water is the infinite supply that it represents. Infinite anything in a survival game is bad news. It may be realistic but it destroys the gameplay.

That generalization is patently false.

Just off the top of my head:

Green Hell, rainforest.

The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.

Raft, literally floating in water.

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

This only makes you angry because you refuse to accept your role in early access. As long as you disagree and fight against the idea that you signed up to test out the experimental changes the developers make to the game you are going to be perplexed over why TFP changes things without asking us for permission. For 20 alphas now the developers have been making changes and giving them to us to test and play with and then give feedback based on actual play time.

I am not the least bit angry, Roland.

If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.

We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.

Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

If you are on a team and some are doing all the building and others are out looting predominately that is also normal and fine. As a team you are getting all those activities done. The looters will bring back magazines because it will make sense for everyone on the team to specialize in different magazines. Having everyone read whatever they find themselves will be extremely foolish and as soon as people start playing they will realize this. 5 people all reading Sharp Sticks magazine means all five will be able to craft an orange wooden spear. But giving one person all the Sharp Sticks magazines means that one person will be able to craft top tier spears for everyone on the team. There is zero incentive to read all magazines yourself when on a team as that will horribly dilute the magazines. It may not seem that way when thinking of magazines in terms of current A20 books but when teams start playing they will instantly realize that the only thing that makes sense is to divide up who will craft what and then funnel magazines to each team member. Meanwhile builders will still probably lead their teammates in xp farming as they upgrade blocks as they build...

Thank you for finally addressing my concern.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Grue
Clarity. (see edit history)

[smadcore]

Is there any way zombie AI could be tweaked to make the 'ramp up to killbox' style of base less op? 

Maybe occasionally a zombie will ignore the vertical distance and just get as close as they can on the horizontal axis and start attacking blocks?

Maybe sometimes their pathfinding is drastically reduced so they don't notice that convenient set of steps up to where you want them to be?

I don't pretend to understand how all the code works. I really think a little RNG could help. 

 

[meilodasreh]

That "rage mode" you describe is already there, but maybe it could be tweaked a little how it is triggered.

atm it can occur for a short period of time after they fell, and they do it when they don't have a legit path to you.

This is as far as I know, but there might be more to it.

Sometimes they seem to do it at random, but I guess that's just because especially on hordenights when they clog up somewhere,

their pathing just gets messed up, so it's more like a bug, working as a feature 🙂

 

[ArneK]

There might be a post about this suggestion already, but 150+ pages are quite a bunch to be read at once so I give my 2 cents anyway.

 

Water and vanishing glass jars:

I think it would be better if those empty glass jars remained in the game as they are in A20, but instead of finding them in the world all the time, you could reduce their number significantly. Empty jars could be mostly broken glass instead when looting. And murky water should stack in 10 only like bottled water now is. Heck you could also make empty jars stack in 10 only so you couldn't carry so many of them in your backpack at once (without hurting your carrying ability for other items). That way you could still carry water from rivers and lakes, but significantly make it harder in the early game. You could also make it so that character can't actually craft jars at forge without perking into it or reading (and finding) a proper book.

 

You could reduce the drop rate for murky water from cabinets and other places. Also murky water from toilets could require empty jar to pick it up (although I don't know how that could be implemented well in the game mechanics).

 

Someone mentioned here that there are already containers that vanishes when used (glue and gas for example), but I wouldn't mind them also requiring scrap polymers when crafted at chemistry stations. Glue could turn to scrap polymers when used. Gas cans could turn to empty plastic cans or back into scrap polymers when consumed. Which you would then use again if you wanted to craft glue or gas. And you could remove glue crafting completely from campfires, I would be fine with that.

 

I know that 7dtd is just a game, but I've been enjoying it's immersive side very much and I feel that A21 is reducing the immersion quite a bunch to repair these apparent balance issues.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by ArneK (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

I still think the big, BIG picture of the game plot, is working toward a viable, believable part 2!

 

With the presupposition that the player is in a fevered dream fighting off the zombie virus, probably in a hospital (not required, but a solid wink to "The Walking Dead" series), everything makes sense!

 

-Air drops are injections of immunoglobulins and various nutrients. 

-The White River are the player's fevered view of the nurses (in white) who are helping them.

-Blood Moon hordes are when the virus tries to turn the person into a Zombie (or they just die).

-The ruined buildings are a subconscious interpretation of the players health.

-As the player progresses, they're health is becoming better. After completing tier 5 POIs for all traders on the map the player is cured and wakes up!

 

When the player wakes up there could be a whole spectrum of situations awaiting them!  The game could start as the zombie virus is still thought as a bad flu (Covid-66Z).

The player has 7 days before all hell breaks loose, and they have to prepare for what they believe might come.

Of course, Part2 could have several starting situations and/or several levels of wealth and abilities at start (a wink to Station 11?)

 

Anyway, fuel for thought.

[FinkPloyd]

2 hours ago, Grue said:

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it.

 

Roland has played with the change to remove jars, I assume you have not.

So please dont be offended if I value Roland's opinion above yours.

 

Fun Pimps made 7D2D an excelent game so far. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

But...I need a fix...anyone got a juicy titbit of release info?

Even a dried up bit would help...

 

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, Grue said:

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

Don't worry, now that @Crater Creator is Super Moderator, I'm sure he'll address all your concerns and have TFP change back any game mechanic you don't like.

 

2 hours ago, smadcore said:

Is there any way zombie AI could be tweaked to make the 'ramp up to killbox' style of base less op? 

Maybe occasionally a zombie will ignore the vertical distance and just get as close as they can on the horizontal axis and start attacking blocks?

Maybe sometimes their pathfinding is drastically reduced so they don't notice that convenient set of steps up to where you want them to be?

I don't pretend to understand how all the code works. I really think a little RNG could help. 

For every complaint like yours, I see as many (if not more) complaints about the opposite...

 

*in frustrated voice*

"Why did the zombies ignore my beautiful easy path of least resistance to just stop and bash my walls??"

Go figure...

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Annihilatorza]

3 hours ago, Grue said:

 

Granted it's probably not the majority of people, but neither is it an edge case for people who play in groups to divide their labor, for example on a community server supporting a streamer. Or even solo gamers who want to play a low-loot, self-sufficient type of game.

 

My point is to shine a light on the fact that not everyone plays the game as a roving murder-hobo rummaging through one POI after another.

 

If they keep chasing that lowest common denominator, it becomes recursive, and everyone plays that way because it is the only way left to play.

It would be nice if the devs would kindly take their thumb off the scales to force gameplay in that direction.

 

And you are right, one would hope that a good group would help out the support people back home building things and making the hobo stew for everyone.

 

I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.

https://gprivate.com/62uqp

 

That generalization is patently false.

Just off the top of my head:

Green Hell, rainforest.

The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.

Raft, literally floating in water.

 

I am not the least bit angry, Roland.

If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.

We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.

Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

 

Thank you for finally addressing my concern.

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

 

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory. 

 

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

 

IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style 

 

Need to know how to make concrete 

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make a AK47

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make traps 

Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

 

Example

"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "

 

You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.

 

I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over. 

 

I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate

 

But mainly, I am just dying to play the new build for me the number one change is the water fix, I cant wait to see it.

 

Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.

Anni

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Annihilatorza (see edit history)

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Grue said:

I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.

https://gprivate.com/62uqp

 

I never said I didn't know the historical reference. I said I didn't get what you mean by it in the context of the game and gathering water. How about you just say what you mean plainly.

 

2 hours ago, Grue said:

That generalization is patently false.

Just off the top of my head:

Green Hell, rainforest.

The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.

Raft, literally floating in water.

 

I haven't played Green Hell or Long Dark. In Raft you are literally floating in water but do you know what you don't have on day one? 30 empty jars to fill up with with water that is drinkable from day one. You can inform me about Long Dark or Green Hell. Do those games allow you to load up on all the water you need for the foreseeable future from the first moments of the game? I've watched people play Long Dark and I am pretty sure your inventory is more limited than 7 Days to Die but can you build up an easily accessible stash of stack and stack of water from all that snow like you can in 7 Days to Die? I don't think so. I think you're superficially naming games that have a lot of water but don't actually allow the player to have unlimited access to it all right from the day one. I know for sure you can't with raft. Surrounded by sea water we might be but that doesn't translate to day one drinkable water surplus all around.

2 hours ago, Grue said:

I am not the least bit angry, Roland.

If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.

 

Apologies.

This only makes you angry sick and tired of disappointment because you refuse to accept your role in early access.

 

3 hours ago, Grue said:

We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.

 

It isn't an excuse. It is the state of the game and it doesn't run its course until the game state changes to finished. It has been a long road and it isn't uncommon for people to get fatigued before it is over. But that is just you being fatigued and burnt out and not necessarily a reflection on whether the development process is still continuing. It is. Changes are still happening. You are playing the game before it is finished. Hence, early access is still ongoing. There is no evidence to show that 7 Days to Die should lose that status. All the evidence shows that it still has some way to go before it is finished.

 

3 hours ago, Grue said:

Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

 

They do actually listen to the feedback you give after playtesting. They read several forums and twitch channels and they also have feedback collection built into the game. But the key here to the feedback they care about is this word: Playtesting. 

 

As for shouting down someone's feedback I don't do that at all when it is game related feedback based on playtesting. What I do counter is when people make speculations about the motives or thought processes of the developers or spread doom and gloom about the future of game based on faulty opinions they have because they don't know all the facts. Show me where I have actually shouted down someone's gameplay feedback. It doesn't exist. Even now our discussion has nothing to do with actual gameplay. It is about how early access works and about how the developers do consider the feedback of the community when it is based upon actual playtime data.  Where have I said anything to disrespect your gameplay feedback or anyone's by "shouting you down"?

In the case of the water survival changes and the learn by reading mechanics, I do share my own actual gameplay feedback as a counterpoint to many of the worst case scenario speculations that people are throwing out there without any evidence other than their fears and worries about change. 

 

3 hours ago, Grue said:

Thank you for finally addressing my concern.

 

Finally? I've been typing out these examples and giving these insights for both water survival and the magazine crafting system for months now. It just goes to show how people would rather ignore what one eyewitness reports in favor of just repeating each others' worst case scenario fears and worries over and over and over.

 

Glad your concern could be addressed.

[Jost Amman]

13 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

Like what? You can build all you want without any books.

Unless you're talking about electrical traps, in which case it's common sense you need to learn that stuff from somewhere.

 

Actually, this gives me a good segue into something I've been complaining about for a long time.

Why, of all skills, is building not one of those skills you have to learn?

[Riamus]

2 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

 

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory. 

 

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

 

IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style 

 

Need to know how to make concrete 

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make a AK47

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make traps 

Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

 

Example

"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "

 

You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.

 

I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over. 

 

I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate

 

Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.

Anni

 

I think you misunderstood how the magazine change works.  You no longer have to find a specific book (schematic) in order to make something.  You find magazines that are, in a way, generic.  For example, you find magazines relating to spears.  You find these often and each one you read increases your knowledge.  You aren't looking for many different volumes of the magazine, but are looking just for the spear magazine.  Initially, you can only make a tier 1, quality 1 spear, but as you find more of this magazine, you learn more and can make better spears.  By perking into spears, your chances of finding spear magazines increases, making it easier to find the magazines in order to make better spears.  Unlike now, where if you can't find a specific schematic you can't make something, you will find magazines often and will unlock the better versions of items as you read them.  RNG no longer prevents you from making something.  Of course, this also means you don't get lucky and find a schematic for something great immediately.  If anything, this change solves the problem you are describing rather than creating that problem.

 

As far as difficulty finding magazines, this should not be a big problem.  If you want magazines related to medicine crafting, visit a pharmacy or hospital.  If you want magazines related to guns, visit a shotgun messiah.  You can still find other magazines in these places, but you have a greater chance of getting magazines that fit the POI.  And magazines will drop far more often than what we see now, where most drops are paper.

 

Now, I haven't played A21 obviously, so I'm going by what has been revealed, but the changes seen like they will be good overall.  I was initially concerned about them and I still am a bit leery, but I don't expect a serious problem except for people who try to rush through by trying to get specific schematics right away.  That said, I did like the variety between games and am a little concerned that this linearity may make the game stale after a few games because things will progress the same each game instead of having variety.  That is my biggest concern.

[Roland]

17 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

 

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory.

 

In the case of friends the magazines are different than past books we've had in the game. Currently it makes sense to read any books I find and simply take duplicate books home for my buddies to read. But with the new magazines, that is completely inefficient and counterproductive. If I read a magazine and you read the same magazine and someone else reads the same magazine then all three of us are at level one and can still only craft the lowest tier. But if we all give our magazines to one person to read (doesn't matter who) then that one person can craft at level three and make better stuff for all of us.

 

With skills it makes sense for everyone to have the same skills. We would all like to have a10% boost to our damage or our stamina so of course everyone will read that book themself when they find it and only share any duplicates. But it makes no sense for everyone to be able to craft the same thing at low levels. As for dumping duplicate magazines for inventory space, I doubt anyone will do that. The magazines feel extremely valuable. Nobody is likely to just throw them out because they want to hold onto some lead.

 

So I hope you see that with the magazines, self-interest actually pushes people to divide up the magazines so specific people get as high level as they can in their specialty. If you are building at camp you will read certain magzines and craft those things for everyone all while still leveling up and using skill points for your perks that you get from upgrading the blocks you are building for your base. You won't have to loot at all if you don't want to.

[Annihilatorza]

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

 

I think you misunderstood how the magazine change works.  You no longer have to find a specific book (schematic) in order to make something.  You find magazines that are, in a way, generic.  For example, you find magazines relating to spears.  You find these often and each one you read increases your knowledge.  You aren't looking for many different volumes of the magazine, but are looking just for the spear magazine.  Initially, you can only make a tier 1, quality 1 spear, but as you find more of this magazine, you learn more and can make better spears.  By perking into spears, your chances of finding spear magazines increases, making it easier to find the magazines in order to make better spears.  Unlike now, where if you can't find a specific schematic you can't make something, you will find magazines often and will unlock the better versions of items as you read them.  RNG no longer prevents you from making something.  Of course, this also means you don't get lucky and find a schematic for something great immediately.  If anything, this change solves the problem you are describing rather than creating that problem.

 

As far as difficulty finding magazines, this should not be a big problem.  If you want magazines related to medicine crafting, visit a pharmacy or hospital.  If you want magazines related to guns, visit a shotgun messiah.  You can still find other magazines in these places, but you have a greater chance of getting magazines that fit the POI.  And magazines will drop far more often than what we see now, where most drops are paper.

 

Now, I haven't played A21 obviously, so I'm going by what has been revealed, but the changes seen like they will be good overall.  I was initially concerned about them and I still am a bit leery, but I don't expect a serious problem except for people who try to rush through by trying to get specific schematics right away.  That said, I did like the variety between games and am a little concerned that this linearity may make the game stale after a few games because things will progress the same each game instead of having variety.  That is my biggest concern.

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, it might be the greatest skill system ever and I think some of my issue with it might be its just such a massive change from anything we have ever used before. 

 

I am playing Empyrion currently and it uses a system similar to A20 so it easy to understand. 

 

I just hope we get a bigger backpack, so much loot to carry and yes I am packrat, I strip every POI of everything thats not nailed down and then somethings that are.

 

Thanks Roland for all your Hard work you put into these forums, I know its not easy.

[smadcore]

That's kinda hilarious Grue. I guess you need to cater to two types of audiences. BTW all the work you team is doing is fantastic. Just a suggestion from someone who has been playing since 2016

,

[Riamus]

9 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:

I just hope we get a bigger backpack, so much loot to carry and yes I am packrat, I strip every POI of everything thats not nailed down and then somethings that are.

Have you tried using a drone yet?  One you get a tier 6 drone, you can put 4 cargo mods into it if you want and increase your inventory space within a POI by, I believe, 48 spaces.  Yes, they are a pain when they have difficulty following you sometimes, but it really helps if you loot everything in a POI.  😁

 

@RolandCan you tell us what the stack size is for a specific magazine?  I wouldn't want to have multiple stacks of the same magazine after looting a large bookstore, for example.  Multiple stacks of different magazines are fine, of course.

[RipClaw]

58 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Like what? You can build all you want without any books.

To a limited extent. You can build a wood or cobblestone base but that's it without looting. For the production of cement and concrete you need a forge and a concrete mixer. You also need a workbench to build the cement mixer. In A20 you can unlock the recipes via Advanced Engineering. In A21 you need to read a certain amount of Forge Ahead magazines.
 

Edited January 11, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[FinkPloyd]

Do the new magazines appear in the loot dropped by zombies?

Or will you get magazines from horde nights?

[Jost Amman]

8 hours ago, RipClaw said:

To a limited extent. You can build a wood or cobblestone base but that's it without looting. For the production of cement and concrete you need a forge and a concrete mixer. You also need a workbench to build the concrete mixer. In A20 you can unlock the recipes via Advanced Engineering. In A21 you need to read a certain amount of Forge Ahead magazines.

You can buy concrete and workstations at a trader pretty easily, then you're set.

 

But my point is you can still do A LOT just by standing there just building. That's already fairly OP and unbalanced, IMO... what other game lets you have everything by basically doing nothing? 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Roland
politics (see edit history)

[Grue]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Don't worry, now that @Crater Creator is Super Moderator, I'm sure he'll address all your concerns and have TFP change back any game mechanic you don't like.

 

For every complaint like yours, I see as many (if not more) complaints about the opposite...

 

*in frustrated voice*

"Why did the zombies ignore my beautiful easy path of least resistance to just stop and bash my walls??"

Go figure...

 

 

Now that you mention it, I have hated the zombie AI since A17. 

Please bring back the zombies that actually act like zombies instead of the conga line of structural engineers who magically detect and path to the weakest block.

It was far less predicable and exploitable when the zombies would just swarm in waves and start beating on random parts of your walls. Now all horde bases are basically identical because the zombies are too "smart" for their own good.

I'm sure Crater will get right on that.

 

53 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

 

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory. 

 

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

 

IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style 

 

Need to know how to make concrete 

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make a AK47

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make traps 

Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

 

Example

"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "

 

You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.

 

I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over. 

 

I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate

 

But mainly, I am just dying to play the new build for me the number one change is the water fix, I cant wait to see it.

 

Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.

Anni

 

 

Actually it is far worse than that. Instead one schematic you need, the thing you want is locked behind collecting a dozen magazines.

And it will be the same dozen magazines every time you play.

 

No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1,

Or debating spending points to get the recipe you need vs waiting for the next trade day to try to buy one. 

The RNG for schematics may have been fickle at times, but it also made every play though unique.

And for most things there was a fall back of spending points to get what you could not find.