Please stop trying to tell us how to play

[Survior]

 

20 minutes ago, Roland said:

... I also wouldn't call them essential loot...

 

Use the creative menu ...

 

Well everyone has an opinion I guess.  The game is in alpha, players should point out what's wrong with the current system (again, opinions), your advice in essence goes against the very nature of a game in alpha to suit what is your apparent preference for play style.

 

I don't mind that I don't find a beaker in the first chem lab I hit, I mind that I hit hospitals, chem labs, drug labs, basement meth labs, corporate pharmacy pois and can't find a beaker. You don't care, but a lot of people think this is silly.

[SylenThunder]

  

16 minutes ago, Marinxar said:

 

In some things, he has a point.

 

TFP applied a lot of quick fixes, that don't make a lot of sense.

 

Demolisher

Learn By Doing removal

Farming Plot block

 

These come to mind now, I am sure there are more, but these changes make no practical sense, but drastically changed the way the game can be played if you play vanilla.

 

 

Ok, lets take a look at your assumptions here.

 

Demolisher - How exactly is this a "quick fix"?  I can even see it tying into the future story line and Bandit situation. It's also a direct replacement for the Behemoth, which was planned but didn't end up working out. A lot of thought and effort went into this. It wasn't just slapped in, and makes perfect sense.

 

Learn By Doing removal - Nothing quick about this. It's removal began in a15, and finished in a17. And it's not like it was a "surprise!" change either. The developer has openly discussed it's removal, and the type of skill system that they wanted to replace it with since at least Alpha 9. Wasn't quick, and wasn't a "fix". It was the removal of a placeholder system that was heavily exploited by players with a system that the fit the developers views of how they wanted the game to be. Which again, makes perfect sense.

 

Farming Plot block - Now this one may be the only one here that was a "quick fix". It exists as a result of the new landscape mesh system not making the old style farm plots visible. A lot of work was done in properly balancing it with a number of other changes that also occurred in that build. To say it makes no practical sense only shows that you haven't actually done your research.

 

And remember, you're playing a game in Alpha development. This is the stage of development where core game features are designed and implemented. It is exactly where you expect major changes in core systems and gameplay across major builds. If you can't deal with that, then you need to learn how to stay away from Early Access.

[Crater Creator]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:31 PM, Stranded_Napkin said:

Wow, the cognitive dissonance in this thread is really sad. We know for a fact this isn't balancing. They are truly responding to trends in the player base. That was the entire reason why they did away with the learn by doing mechanic. It wasn't that they couldn't balance it. It was entirely because they saw the player base taking advantage of it and couldn't be bothered to fix it. Now instead of a system that has basis in reality, your character magically learns things by spec'ing into them in a skill tree. You can make a million level 1 bows but until your character looks off into the distance and has a brain aneurism they won't make one at level 2. 

 

Even if we accept the argument that TFP are basing decisions off of trends in the player base, they saw the player base taking advantage of... what, exactly?  Imbalances, that's what.  And they reacted in ways one would if one viewed it as balancing, too...

 

On 1/6/2022 at 11:31 PM, Stranded_Napkin said:

 

The digging thing wasn't even the first adjustment to how players used underground bases. Players learned that long falls would kill the zombies. They then built drop bases that went to bedrock. The Fun Pimps then adjusted the system to only cripple zombies. This still helped people too much as a fall onto log spikes would eventually kill them. Then they removed log spikes because f the players who liked using them even as simply a way to slow the zombies. They also changed the way fall damage was calculated that made falls less useful. They still are but you have to make them fall several times so it's a moot point. My biggest issue with the digging is the moronic animation they went with. Tell me, when was the last time you dug a hole with your knees? Zombies look like a bunch of children throwing a tantrum.

 

There are still weak and strong spikes in the game you can use.  The art & animation has been improved but the mechanics of a cheap, passive, damaging trap and a cheap, passive, slowing trap still exist.  And you can also still build pit bases designed to make zombies take damage from long falls.  "Less useful" does not make it a moot point.  Fall damage was a critical element of my horde base in A19.  Less useful is a matter of balance.

 

On 1/6/2022 at 11:31 PM, Stranded_Napkin said:

If this was a matter of balancing though, other changes could have had the desired effect but with far less changes. Instead of magic brain aneurisms all they had to do was change the crafting time. If they gave crafting slightly higher xp and made crafting take far longer they could have stunted how much people could gain in a night of crafting and sitting in the corner. Nope too obvious a fix. Instead of making all zombies dig and also changing the AI so that they know about their damage bonus when all attacking the same block, they could have added a couple zombie types that may show up with general spawns that have digging  specialties. This would allow even regular zombies to get to you but without the laser focused speed drilling. For real though, professional oil riggers and miners couldn't dig that fast if they were given the Super Digger. OK, maybe that's an exaggeration. Still, it was never about balancing. It was The Fun Pimps trying to show the player base that they were smarter than us. 

 

I do agree that the digging animation looks bad, and I think applying actions like digging to a subset of zombies would be better.  But as I've said many times, this shouldn't be viewed as a battle of wills that either the players or the devs will win.  The devs could easily 'win the battle' if they wanted to, because they don't have to play by the rules.  They make the rules!  If they really felt that underground bases were wrong they could just teleport you above the surface if you try it on horde night, the way they teleport you away from the trader base at night (minus the pragmatic issue of objectively defining what the "surface" means).  They didn't do that.  They added digging zombies.  So we still have player digging, which can now be countered by zombie digging.  That's not outsmarting the player base.  That's balancing.  Or at the least, it's adding the elements necessary to make it possible to balance.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Crater Creator (see edit history)

[Kattla]

I agree with the OP on the topic of moving on to the rest of the game. Fix gamebreaking bugs, and then move on to the bandits and story.

With those done, then it may be time to optimize and tidy up what they consider exploits of certain building blocks.

Hopefully it is easier to balance stuff once they see the full picture.

[theFlu]

5 hours ago, Kasad said:

I'm literally quoting a guy mentioning end game loot.

Indeed, and you referred to "motor [parts]" as end game for "most people"; I did assume that means you agree. I described how a lot of those are linked to said motorized phase of the game, and steel parts being a gating item, as in not-exactly-basic either.

[Survior]

1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

 And remember, you're playing a game in Alpha development. This is the stage of development where core game features are designed and implemented. It is exactly where you expect major changes in core systems and gameplay across major builds. If you can't deal with that, then you need to learn how to stay away from Early Access.

 

That's really the most tiresome argument I hear around here to shut down people's opinions.  First of all the game was released nearly TEN years ago so instead of "we are going to completely scrap an entire system and redo it" you would think it would be all about refinement and balance at this point.

Second, since the game is in alpha players should be encouraged to speak their minds about changes and purposed changes, not shut down.

[SylenThunder]

37 minutes ago, Survior said:

 

That's really the most tiresome argument I hear around here to shut down people's opinions.  First of all the game was released nearly TEN years ago so instead of "we are going to completely scrap an entire system and redo it" you would think it would be all about refinement and balance at this point.

Second, since the game is in alpha players should be encouraged to speak their minds about changes and purposed changes, not shut down.

If you're going to sit and complain about things changing, it's perfectly accurate.

 

You're free to speak your mind sure. It is encouraged. However completely ignoring actual facts to come up with a dissident opinion is just silly, and should be stopped. Go ahead and read the rest of the post again. It looks like you missed most of the content contained within that the comment you chose to read was directed towards.

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

Demolisher - How exactly is this a "quick fix"?  I can even see it tying into the future story line and Bandit situation. It's also a direct replacement for the Behemoth, which was planned but didn't end up working out. A lot of thought and effort went into this. It wasn't just slapped in, and makes perfect sense.

First of all you, are a moderator. So you get a view behind the curtain that a normal player don't get. We only get the outside perspective.

 

Seen from the outside, the balancing of the Demolisher is more the result of Mad Mole's moods than thorough considerations.

 

Mad Mole made videos back then in which he tried different builds. The Demolisher at that time did more entity damage than block damage. At one horde night, there was a breach in his defenses and the zombies got into his base. Including two demolishers. These then exploded near his chemistry station but the chemistry station survived.

He sounded disappointed that he was not punished for this negligence. The next day, the damage values of the demolisher were flipped and nothing has been changed since then, to my knowledge.

 

It was often criticized that the Demolisher is both a tank but also does a lot of damage. Usually either one or the other is the case but never both at the same time.

 

2 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

Learn By Doing removal - Nothing quick about this. It's removal began in a15, and finished in a17. And it's not like it was a "surprise!" change either. The developer has openly discussed it's removal, and the type of skill system that they wanted to replace it with since at least Alpha 9.

Again from the outsider perspective, the transition was very quick. A16 had a hybrid system and after 16.4 also solved the spamcrafting problem, it seemed perfect.

Yes there were some players who still hugged a cactus for hours or shot ore with a shotgun. The same players now light campfires and summon screamer hordes. This is a mindset and has nothing to do with any particular progression system.
 

Then in A17 the learning by doing was gone and I don't need to mention how bad the start of A17 was.

 

By the way, not everyone reads the forum. Most players only see what was released and sometimes they don't even read the release notes.
 

3 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

Farming Plot block - Now this one may be the only one here that was a "quick fix". It exists as a result of the new landscape mesh system not making the old style farm plots visible. A lot of work was done in properly balancing it with a number of other changes that also occurred in that build. To say it makes no practical sense only shows that you haven't actually done your research.

In the beginning, the farm plots were very expensive. It took a long time until you had enough rotten meat. Especially since the zombies no longer gave rotten meat. At that time I regularly visited the Doggos and Bear Den to take advantage of the respawn. When the roadkills were added, it got a little better.

 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

@RipClaw very happy to see that there are still users fighting the good fight.

 

Everything you say I agree with. 

16.4 was the best progression system to date

abusers will always exist. Overhauling an entire system because a few players did that is ludicrous

the demolisher not having a single way to counter him is absolutely stupid (shooting his light for a fraction of his hp should deal massive damage to him and deactivate the bomb, not trigger it!)

and farmplots... are alright. In an apocalyptic wasteland, the ground might be irradiated. Fair enough. But now they are no longer the limiting factor, so why do they still exist/are mandatory for farming?

 

 

Everything TFPs do feels like you said, like a mood swing. Trying out stuff is nice, but they never think things through. What it affects, how it interacts with the rest of the game. If I had one statement that they would be able to read it is:

"Think things through. Hell I'll even raise these points for free if you ask nicely." because basically every change is a cluster**** and gets patched up with bandaids. 

 

Examples:

Spoiler

Gore blocks - great mechanic. But it took too much processing power and didn't look right, so lets just scrap the whole thing instead of fixing it.
Every other feature that was scrapped instead of fixed when an issue arose.

First LBD system - needed another system to limit it and when that wasn't enough was scrapped, instead of implemented correctly
First iterations of schematics (books) - with no way to get a forge, you were forced to either look for weeks, or use one in a poi, if you found one

wandering hordes - ♬ every Zombie goes: Cha Cha Cha! ♬ the first few iterations were laughable

waking up sleepers - I loved it, but they seemingly didn't think ppl would wake them up and lure them outside. How did you not see that?

RWG debacle of previous alphas - honestly I don't remember anymore. So many changes and even more bugs and weird placements

A17 - .

Traders and their inventory/buy/sellprices

Farming - first farm plots, then rebalancing of seeds, now farm plots are just an annoyance

that whole food poisoning mechanic - I liked it (although I was a strong critic of HOW it was implemented) scrapped completely instead of tweaked and making it more sensible.
And now the sleeper volumes - See my two whole threads about it.

And there is much MUCH more that I can't remember because it has been 8 years already.

I just want them to think about it before they implement something, instead of applying a bandaid afterward.

It is like they see a problem and jump on the solution, without questioning it first or doing some more research.

OBVIOUSLY they do... but that is what it feels like. Issues that are pretty obvious, or should be, to those that know what is coming... 

 

 

Well... my vacation is over tomorrow, so this might be my last rant for quite some time

Hope you enjoyed it  

[minisith]

2 hours ago, Survior said:

 

That's really the most tiresome argument I hear around here to shut down people's opinions.  First of all the game was released nearly TEN years ago so instead of "we are going to completely scrap an entire system and redo it" you would think it would be all about refinement and balance at this point.

Second, since the game is in alpha players should be encouraged to speak their minds about changes and purposed changes, not shut down.

This has been discussed years ago when they implemented these changes.  You just never agreed to it but then this is not your game and these topics were always split.  But most people agree with TFPs.  We could never do a poll since most players do not even read these posts.   They are more confused than you or me about changes but they can still enjoy the game.  Wait till bandits are in the game and you will really flip.  I can predict they will be so not fair or balanced when first put into the game.

[Kasad]

I just want to add this despite it offending some people. I take this example from a few years ago where I read a developer mentioning "The reviews are good so we're doing good". I think this is a mental trap for the devs. Let me explain.

 

I suspect that as long as the game doesn't change dramatically for the worse, reviewers won't bother giving bad reviews and it gives the devs a false sense of success and confirmation.

Why finish a product and go on with development when you are still in alpha stage? You can keep changing the same features indefinitely despite it hurting a seemingly small chunk of the player base.

 

I think a decent solution would be to have open polls announced in steam where people can vote for major redos.

Even better perhaps would be to make experimental versions and get feedback from the player base more often. That's what minecraft has been doing for ages and that's why it became so popular. The player base could always comment on a new feature before it was released. Then again minecraft does allow you to update your worlds in newer versions , which I think it would be significantly harder for the pimps to do.

[JCrook1028]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

and farmplots... are alright. In an apocalyptic wasteland, the ground might be irradiated. Fair enough. But now they are no longer the limiting factor, so why do they still exist/are mandatory for farming?

Did you not actually read WHY they were put in? Because the new ground system will not support directly farming there... READ!

 

"It exists as a result of the new landscape mesh system not making the old style farm plots visible."

 

 

[Kasad]

Ground is irradiated.

Quickly think, how should we fix this issue? Add radiation and rad-x to counter the effects or radiation? Make fertilizer from rotten food? Perhaps use boiled water on cotton to grow plants?

Recipe requires rotten meat.

What? Doesn't this come from the zombies?

Add.Rotten.Meat.To.The.Recipe.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Kasad (see edit history)

[Roland]

11 hours ago, Marinxar said:

 

In some things, he has a point.

 

TFP applied a lot of quick fixes, that don't make a lot of sense.

 

Demolisher

Learn By Doing removal

Farming Plot block

 

These come to mind now, I am sure there are more, but these changes make no practical sense, but drastically changed the way the game can be played if you play vanilla.

 

Im not certain what you mean by “quick fix” but none of those three things were quick. The Demolisher was a new boss enemy that was added to create new challenges. It wasn’t added to fix anything. Maybe you don’t like what it does or how it was implemented but it wasn’t something thrown in quick and without thought and planning. There was quite a bit of work involved comparable to any of the new zombie models added to the game.

 

LBD was a process and not an event. LBD was already on the way out in Alpha 15 when they removed LBD crafting. In Alpha 16 they still had LBD skills but they also had skill points that could be earned to purchase perks. Finally in Alpha 17 the LBD skills were removed and everything was purely by purchase. The removal of LBD was a two-year long process. A17 was cooking for 1.5 years behind the scenes during which the current system was developed internally. There was nothing quick about it. 
 

The farming plot went through about three changes internally that you guys never saw before it landed where it is. When the microsplat tech for terrain textures was adopted it necessitated a change to farming. No longer was the farming texture supported in addition to the overall biome texture. They tried a few different ways of doing it that were a compromise between what we have now and what we originally had but finally decided to do what we have now. It was not a quick slapped together thing. People tend to forget how long of a time between major updates there is and think, “In A16 it was this way and then suddenly in A17 it was completely different”

 

In that case “suddenly” equaled 18 months of development. 

[DiegoLBC1]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:08 PM, DiegoLBC1 said:

Well... I like to play SP and MP, alone or with friends. In each case it is "a different game", because of different settings, mods and so on.

I'm always adapting, I don't feel forced to play in any specific way. If I don't like a game mode on some server I just don't play there anymore. I'm currently downgraded  to A19, because me and my friends wants to do the final battle on a server, before they upgrade to A20, but I played/tested the A20, it's more challenging and "difficult", so I changed my focus on the game. "Goodbye" to battling zombies like a crazy, "hello" to stealth and change course.

 

Now I can go to the A20, on my favourite server with my friends. 

[SylenThunder]

8 hours ago, RipClaw said:

By the way, not everyone reads the forum. Most players only see what was released and sometimes they don't even read the release notes.

That's entirely on you. SO basically you are making the assumption for your failed argument only because you don't actually pay attention to what the developers are discussing.

 

Seen from the outside, if you had paid any attention these changes would have been no surprise, and you would have known about them occurring long before they happened. I don't have much extra inside knowledge. I'm basing my argument entirely on the information that is publicly available and presented to you the player.

 

So again, the only reason they seem like "quick fixes" is because you can't be bothered to actually pay attention to a game you claim to care so much about.

[Roland]

12 hours ago, Survior said:

 

Well everyone has an opinion I guess.  The game is in alpha, players should point out what's wrong with the current system (again, opinions), your advice in essence goes against the very nature of a game in alpha to suit what is your apparent preference for play style.

 

I don't mind that I don't find a beaker in the first chem lab I hit, I mind that I hit hospitals, chem labs, drug labs, basement meth labs, corporate pharmacy pois and can't find a beaker. You don't care, but a lot of people think this is silly.

My advice is simply a workaround for those interested in getting a solution now while the game is in development. It was not meant as a conversation ender. You can still push for changes you want and while waiting for those changes to occur you can use workarounds like my suggestion or mods to tailor the game to how you like. It’s not an either or scenario to modify how you play and also give feedback for changes you want. As I said, everyone has fun differently and if getting a beaker is critical to having fun for someone it is entirely okay to get one using the creative menu. 

[Maharin]

I sense a disturbance in the force.  It's as if a million opinions were suddenly trying to become facts.

 

I guess that also includes the real world and is probably also an opinion.  If you don't believe in the real world, my apologies, and carry on.

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Survior said:

 

That's really the most tiresome argument I hear around here to shut down people's opinions.  First of all the game was released nearly TEN years ago so instead of "we are going to completely scrap an entire system and redo it" you would think it would be all about refinement and balance at this point.

Second, since the game is in alpha players should be encouraged to speak their minds about changes and purposed changes, not shut down.

You are trying to push a false narrative which is why you feel shut down when the truth is posted and contradicts your narrative. 
 

You say that it has been 10 years in alpha  and so a mistake to completely overhaul a system at such a late stage. However the truth is that we just completed year 8 in August and when the changes that you reference were made it was at about year 6. Why not represent the timeline accurately? Because you have an agenda that the game has been too long in alpha and you’re willing to fudge the numbers to bolster your agenda and that drives your opinion. 
 

Players opinions are welcome as long as they have a basis in the true context. As an insider I am going to give a correct accounting of what is going on to diminish the false conjecture and speculation made by those on the outside. Why would anyone want to have their opinion have a basis in false speculations rather than fact?

9 hours ago, RipClaw said:

First of all you, are a moderator. So you get a view behind the curtain that a normal player don't get. We only get the outside perspective.

So you want us to be silent when we know that a particular post is a faulty guess at developer motives?  Why would you want false information to continue and gain traction?

 

Should we just all agree that LBD was changed suddenly at the 10 year development anniversary since it was an outside view and nobody should be shut down?

[Darthjake]

17 minutes ago, Maharin said:

I sense a disturbance in the force.  It's as if a million opinions were suddenly trying to become facts.

 

I guess that also includes the real world and is probably also an opinion.  If you don't believe in the real world, my apologies, and carry on.

 

The real world is just a crutch for those that can't handle fantasy and science fiction.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

That's entirely on you. SO basically you are making the assumption for your failed argument only because you don't actually pay attention to what the developers are discussing.

 

Seen from the outside, if you had paid any attention these changes would have been no surprise, and you would have known about them occurring long before they happened. I don't have much extra inside knowledge. I'm basing my argument entirely on the information that is publicly available and presented to you the player.

 

So again, the only reason they seem like "quick fixes" is because you can't be bothered to actually pay attention to a game you claim to care so much about.

 

Funny that you accuse me of not paying attention to things. @Marinxar has written that with the quick-fix. That was not me.

 

I was just trying to explain how these things look from the perspective of an ordinary player.

 

[wicketness]

Just eat Pretzels.

Shut Up and wait another 10 years like the rest of us.

I got 1000's of hours in game i am 10's of thousands invested in hosting from my first day back in Nov. 2014.

 

In 7 years i learned you can post it but not gonna happen anytime soon.

TFP creates the game we play it. Nice and Simple.

This is for the OP.
 

That's my Nickle.

Edited January 9, 2022 by wicketness (see edit history)

[Roland]

9 hours ago, RipClaw said:

First of all you, are a moderator. So you get a view behind the curtain that a normal player don't get. We only get the outside perspective.

So should we be silent when we know that a particular post is a faulty guess at developer motives?  Why would we want false information to continue and gain traction?

 

Should we just all agree that LBD was changed suddenly at the 10 year development anniversary since it was an outside view and nobody should be shut down?

 

I think most users are grateful to read insider insights and observations because most users just want the truth. They don’t want to push a narrative that the game has been in development for decades or that the player progression change was done as a sloppy last minute patch on a problem the devs were too incompetent to properly fix and due to them caving in to a small but loud faction of the player base. These are myths that angry players rely upon to bolster their arguments but the context is contrived and fabricated. 
 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Maharin]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

These are myths that angry players rely upon to bolster their arguments but the context is contrived and fabricated.

 

So... angrily extruded?  Like constipation?

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

So... angrily extruded?  Like constipation?

I’m an information laxative.