Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Thank you. It is totally ok if people disagree.
I just think many people let their emotions get the better of them (me included, especially after people have talked @%$# for no reason :D)
Often majority opinion is just BS of people who either all go with their feeling (I like to play 7D2D therefor, TFPs are doing a good job) or are just repeating/following peer pressure. AND the community of regular posters are pretty same minded...

Roland is often a good mediator, but he also falls victim to... beeing a bit more passive agressive than necessary 😛 Which spurs people like me on to get @%$#y

 

Okay... so imagine you buy a puzzle.
That puzzle has the image of dogs, which you love and has about 300 pieces of the guessed finished 500.
You buy that because they say they need the money to finish it and promise to finish it and fix the parts that are broken.

After 7 1/2 years, of the 50 broken puzzles, only a handful are still broken, YAY. But they still are broken and unusable in places.
BUT in the meantime, you had a good time... but every few months, they changed the design a bit.
They added parts, deleted some... repainted others.
Now it is still a puzzle, but it is only 200 pieces now because they said it was too difficult for younger players, the image of dogs was scrapped and now it is a farm where a dog is in the background and there are still about 100 pieces missing.

Would you say that the buyer was 100% rewarded and should not have any right to complain?

With excuses like "well there is still a dog" and "the game has become a lot easier to get into" and "the design is far more visually pleasing!"

But your 500 piece dogpicture, it is no more.
It was not advertised, that the dogs owuld go away, just that the puzzle is "subject to small changes". Nor were you made aware of the other changes.


I understand why many people are mad at them.
7D2D is not a horrorgame anymore. It has become more survival in 19 and I support that. But it is not an RPG, it is a lootershooter. And everyone who says otherwise seems to have a very different definition of these genre.
7D2D has gone through so many iteration of features that I sometimes forget about gunmolds...
And I do like that they try out stuff... but 7 1/2 years of alpha is...
Well lets just say it is justified that websites and people are making fun of them. I personally do not ascribe to that, I find it admirable that they still work on the game, BUT I also would like to see the game finished in my lifetime...


*rambling off*

 

Now when was the last time you bought a puzzle in Early Access? More precise, did you ever buy a puzzle in Early Access?

 

The problem with such comparisons is that you can't really compare buying a game in EA to buying puzzles, shoes, cars. Doesn't work. Because there are some critical differences there and it wouldn't make any sense to offer puzzles in EA or buy puzzles in EA. But without EA you are missing a critical ingredient there.

 

 

 

 

[Laz Man]

A puzzle is a bad comparison.  With a puzzle you already know exactly what the end result will look like (e.g. a picture of a dog).

 

Mix genre games like 7d2d are ambitious and have no standard formula to create.  Its not surprising to me at all alot of experimentation of ideas/features have come and gone.  Indie shops like TFP have the freedom (and thankfully the funding) to do so.

 

I laugh everytime people compare TFPs to triple AAA companies who release uninspired games at relatively faster intervals.  AAA companies might be better minimizing project scope creep, but they are not necessarily the best at fostering new and creative ideas.

 

You can't have it both ways imo.  And if you do, it is a magical sweet spot that many groups can't sustain forever.

 

 

[Roland]

Part of the problem is people defining what the game is differently. (I just lost the game)

 

Some people thought that LBD was the core principle of the game. It was the reason to play and grind and progress. But TFP thought of LBD as simply a means by which players could progress. To TFP, player progression was the core principle and LBD was just one way to express that. When they chose a different way to express that, in their minds, the genre never changed. It was still a zombie survival crafting game with elements of tower defense and rpg. But to the fans of LBD, the game was completely thrown out and made new in a completely different genre.

 

To me, the game seems about the same as it always has as far as the general genres it hybrids together. Skill points instead of LBD is about the same as list crafting instead of grid crafting to me. The game is still a crafting genre game even though we craft through lists and recipes instead of grids and spacial puzzles. The game is also still a character progression RPG-like game even though we spend points for improvement instead of grind up that improvement via actions.

 

Imagine you bought a puzzle in early access... j/k but I will say that in my opinion the picture did not change. It is still the same picture but perhaps the piece count is slightly different and maybe the shapes of some of the pieces have been changed so they fit together differently than they did. But it is still a puzzle and the image of what was promised is still there. Going down the kickstarter list which is what the promised image was, they are closing in on fulfilling every single promise. How those promised features play out exactly have changed a few times as the Pimps experimented but they are there and the genre that was the proposed genre as described on the Steam page hasn't ever changed and is still relevant to what is being played today.

[Viktoriusiii]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Some people thought that LBD...

while LBD was a big draw for me (I had it before we even had skills so I didn't buy it FOR that)

I am not refering to it when I talk about genre change.
I can still remember the first few alphas.
I sat at night in my little 5x5 wooden home, as I heard the zombies run around my base.
Why? Because you were lucky to find a crossbow book on day 10 (or even before books)
It felt like a struggle. You had to claw and fight your way to get weapons and ressources.
Now you have these insane loot containers that should probably only ever be at an unreachable position (so no nerdpolling and so on) to reward going through a poi.
Maybe they are only there after you finish a clear quest.

But right now, if you don'T have 4 guns at day 7 with ~100-300 ammo, not only will hordenight be tough on you (if you want to defend your post) but it feels bad because you know you were unlucky.
It is a looter shooter, because at no poin in the game do you ever not have guns, except for the first few days, maybe even hours after you start.
I do not feel scared because I know I always have enough ammo to fight everything.

The thrill does not come from beeing helpless (like you should be in horrorgames) and picking your fights carefully, but you just mow down cannonfodder that gets gradually harder to kill.


AND IT IS A FUN LOOTER SHOOTER.
disclaimer: There is a SLIGHT possibility, that this game was never a horrorgame and the horror just came from me not knowing the game.
I highly doubt it, but I do not want to sound like this is 100% fact when i could just have rosetinted glasses.

But you can not tell me that it is a horror game anymore. Just because it has zombies and a few of them literally fall from the ceiling, does not make it horror.
I am not scared of zombies. Even on harder difficulty, I am not scared, because I know with the right tactic I can beat them.
That is not horror.
Horror is not knowing what will happen next.
Horror is beeing unsure if you can handle whatever comes next, even if you know.
Horror is trying to escape from something you know in theory is faster than you.
Horror is avoiding conflict and beeing the underdog when you have to confront it.

Going into any building you like guns blazing, xp farming while yoloing around is NOT horror.
It is a fun looter-shooter, but not horror.
Give me one person ANYWHERE after A16 that was genuinely scared (and I'm not talking about "oh my god how can they come out of the fake walls and fall from the roof" horror, but unknowing horror. The kind that slenderman or outlast gives you.


 

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

A puzzle is a bad comparison.  With a puzzle you already know exactly what the end result will look like (e.g. a picture of a dog).

 

Mix genre games like 7d2d are ambitious and have no standard formula to create.  Its not surprising to me at all alot of experimentation of ideas/features have come and gone.  Indie shops like TFP have the freedom (and thankfully the funding) to do so.

 

I laugh everytime people compare TFPs to triple AAA companies who release uninspired games at relatively faster intervals.  AAA companies might be better minimizing project scope creep, but they are not necessarily the best at fostering new and creative ideas.

 

You can't have it both ways imo.  And if you do, it is a magical sweet spot that many groups can't sustain forever.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Roland said:

Part of the problem is people defining what the game is differently. (I just lost the game)

 

Some people thought that LBD was the core principle of the game. It was the reason to play and grind and progress. But TFP thought of LBD as simply a means by which players could progress. To TFP, player progression was the core principle and LBD was just one way to express that. When they chose a different way to express that, in their minds, the genre never changed. It was still a zombie survival crafting game with elements of tower defense and rpg. But to the fans of LBD, the game was completely thrown out and made new in a completely different genre.

 

To me, the game seems about the same as it always has as far as the general genres it hybrids together. Skill points instead of LBD is about the same as list crafting instead of grid crafting to me. The game is still a crafting genre game even though we craft through lists and recipes instead of grids and spacial puzzles. The game is also still a character progression RPG-like game even though we spend points for improvement instead of grind up that improvement via actions.

 

Imagine you bought a puzzle in early access... j/k but I will say that in my opinion the picture did not change. It is still the same picture but perhaps the piece count is slightly different and maybe the shapes of some of the pieces have been changed so they fit together differently than they did. But it is still a puzzle and the image of what was promised is still there. Going down the kickstarter list which is what the promised image was, they are closing in on fulfilling every single promise. How those promised features play out exactly have changed a few times as the Pimps experimented but they are there and the genre that was the proposed genre as described on the Steam page hasn't ever changed and is still relevant to what is being played today.

 

I will say something unpopular. 

@Laz Man well i agree with you about gender mixing but problems starts when "balance" go to hell. ofc things are added in cutted by this kinda looks like like cod cw in release day and now : add not suit things and this start to looks like almost diffrent game or mod .

@Roland i will past something from kickstarter

Quote

An open world, voxel-based, sandbox game blending the best elements of FPS, Survival Horror, Tower Defense and Role Playing Games.

Okay : open world ? Yes

Voxel-based? Yes

sandbox? yes

fps? yes

Survival , tower defense? yes

RP? Well this depend on server but yes

but horror? nope.

And this is why i have grudge to TFP.  There were promised horror but now we get what? mad max and fallout with zombie --> post apo.

Previouse alphas was darker, more corpses that now ( on 2013 - 2015 standards well more can be added now because pc are better), whispers screams. etc

I was thinking ( i will not talk about new games like new back 4 blood cod cw etc) that 7dtd  will be like f.e.a.r. , cod waw on zombies,  outlast or zombie u. dark deppresing setting with spooky thing and random sad small stories.

I know changing of setting make this game more popular-if they decided to put ghost girls, hanging copses etc maybe only 1/4 number of actual 7dtd owners bought it. 

ofc you all can say " so you should wrote this in 2013 or 2014". Honestly it could be imposible because this game setting start to change after A17. and honestly any one thing if i wrote this in 2014 it would change anything? ofc not because postapo setting  make this game more popular.

Honestly  i can wrote how it could looks like as horror. but if it can dunno infuence on their next game?  no. 

Live is sometimes so disappointing,  

btw 2  thing that 7dtd in past post more horrorisic

 

 

about second one ( well hornet was mistake ) - game was more darker 

[Jugginator]

4 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But you can not tell me that it is a horror game anymore. Just because it has zombies and a few of them literally fall from the ceiling, does not make it horror.
I am not scared of zombies

 

That comes from playing the game a ton. I've introduced a few new players lately and they're all terrified especially at night lol

[unholyjoe]

some people consider changing a baby's dirty diaper as "horror"

some feel dealing with hard headed kids to be "horror"

some consider teachers as "horror"

most feel that working is a "horror"

some act as tho missing the "LBD" in this game as "horror"

 

the list can go on.. and that itself is a "horror"

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

 

That comes from playing the game a ton. I've introduced a few new players lately and they're all terrified especially at night lol

the horror must have been your play style.. i feel for them

Edited August 25, 2021 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Jugginator]

38 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

the horror must have been your play style.. i feel for them

I plead the fifth. 

[khzmusik]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

(I just lost the game)

 

I lost the game too. On a related note: goddamn you.  

 

On topic: TFP owe people that bought the game, what was promised. Nothing more, nothing less. If that wasn't true of games in general, the nobody would have the right to criticize Aliens: Colonial Marines or No Man's Sky.

 

But, 7D2D is nothing like those debacles. In my mind, TFP have mostly delivered on what they promised, and what they haven't delivered on is still on the roadmap. So, they haven't delivered it yet. Bandits are a good example (and though they've certainly teased much more than bandits, I don't think they ever promised anything more than that).

 

In the meantime, we still got a huge amount of stuff that is great but was never promised. RWG is a good example, and the new RWG tiles feature is a great example.

 

Also, since they made the game so easy to mod, anything they don't have in game - or have in game but we don't like - can pretty easily be redone to our tastes.

 

Having said that, I do miss the days when the game was a little more survival-oriented, with a little more horror, and not going in the direction of a looter shooter with crafting and survival elements. I bought the game because I saw folks play A15 on YouTube, and after a very short time it struck me that playing SP was a very different experience. On the first night, I was by myself with no other humans around, starving, and I had to leave the safety of my cleared POI just so I could find some yucca and not die. I was creeping around in the dark the whole time, and as you might expect, I was ambushed by a group of fast zombies that I could barely see in the dark. It was almost like Outlast or Amnesia.

 

I still miss that experience. If I was a better game designer, I would figure out how to mod that feeling in again. I'm trying...

Edited August 25, 2021 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Roland]

Horror and Survival Horror are two different genres. Survival Horror specifically refers to games in which you don’t have enough resources to simply blast your way through everything. You have run away a lot, hide, use some stealth, and sometimes take wounds that give you lingering status effects that make survival more difficult. Sanity levels are often a feature of that genre. 
 

7 Days to Die was never meant to be a dedicated Survival Horror game. If that aspect is what someone latches onto and wants to be dominant then they are going to be disappointed. Survival Horror is one of the genres the game borrows elements from. 
 

Horror is completely different and this game has never been all that horrific. Some of the effects we will see in A20 (unrevealed as of yet btw) will add actual horror elements to the game more than we’ve seen previously. 
 

If you are a tower defense fan and you want this game to be a tower defense game you will be disappointed. 
 

If you are Stealth fan and you want this game to be a stealth game you will be disappointed. 
 

If you are a survival fan and want this game to be pure survival you will be disappointed. 
 

If you are a crafting fan and want this game to be a full crafting game you will be disappointed. 
 

If you are a classic zombie game fan and you want this game to be a traditional zombie game you will be disappointed. 
 

If you are a RPG fan and want this game to be a fully featured RPG you will be disappointed. 
 

If you enjoy how the game has melded elements of all these genres into a single game then you are picking up what the devs are putting down and probably view their path as a good one. 
 

As far as being scared when you play, you have to watch new players. My brother sat on the roof of a mobile home refusing to drop down a hole in the roof onto a mattress below because of what he feared might come at him in close quarters. He eventually backed away dropped down the side and busted the door open instead. That’s pretty awesome.  OTOH, I remember going back to replay Silent Hill because I remembered the horror. Guess what was missing the second time through knowing everything? Does that then make Silent Hill neither a Horror game or a Survival Horror game because after the first time it was no longer horrific and scary like it was the first time?

 

58 minutes ago, khzmusik said:

I lost the game too. On a related note: goddamn you.  

please tell me you’d been winning since the 90’s until this moment! 😂

Edited August 25, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

please tell me you’d been winning since the 90’s until this moment! 😂

 

I actually introduced The Game to some of my younger compatriots when I was on tour with them in the mid-2010's. Believe me, every single @%$#ing day someone lost that game, usually just out of nowhere while we were all trying to sleep. I really hoped that I would never lose again after that. Well, as they say, the best plans of mice.

 

Regarding the type of game that is 7D2D - sure, it definitely takes from all sorts of genres, and in general that's to TFP credit. But, that doesn't mean it can't get better at any particular genre. Sure, it's never going to be Penumbra or whatever, but that doesn't mean that it can't better incorporate similar gameplay elements. It's not like making this more of a survival horror game would mean removing the fun parts of crafting, tower defence, or whatever.

 

But, this goes back to the original question. TFP don't owe me a survival horror game. I might like that, but many others wouldn't, probably including TFP themselves. They have to go with either their vision or what they believe will appeal the most to the wider game base (or ideally both). Nothing wrong with that.

 

Also, regarding survival games in general (not even necessarily horror). It's incredibly tricky to do, especially without a specific end game (as in Subnautica) - which usually means limited replay value. If it's a survival game, much of the appeal is in the struggle to survive; but "progression" means you survive easier. Basically this ends up with a game that rewards players with a game that they enjoy less as they progress. (This is definitely not limited to 7D2D either.)

 

It still would be nice if bare survival was just as hard as the game progresses, even with whatever perks/skills/recipes you learned, but I've yet to see a game that does that successfully. So, having all those other gameplay elements is definitely a plus for people playing 7D2D.

[Roland]

19 minutes ago, khzmusik said:

but that doesn't mean that it can't better incorporate similar gameplay elements. It's not like making this more of a survival horror game would mean removing the fun parts of crafting, tower defence, or whatever.

 

To a point. Better in most people's minds means deeper and more fully developed. At some point they have to stop and be happy with the depth they've chosen. Usually how well an element is implemented depends on how much of a fan of that type of gameplay you are. I love the guns in the game but talk to a gun nut and TFP didn't go nearly far enough. I'd be down with insanity effects to make the horror aspects more robust but people not into all that would want a hard pass and say the horror part of the game is as robust as it needs to be. People who love farming games would probably be ecstatic if TFP spent six months adding seasonal effects, different types of fertilizers and chemicals, dramatically increasing the types of crops, adding fruit trees, and then adding a better nutrition system for breads, fruits, vegetables, meat and making harvesting and planting have more depth. There have been many threads calling for "better stealth" but I'm happy with the stealth footprint currently in the game. When Madmole talked about fixing water he meant just keeping it basic so that it functions properly but people who had their fan radar attuned to Seafaring gameplay immediately went to rafts, currents, fishing, water zombie lifeforms, etc.

 

There just isn't time and resources to go too far in any element so yeah, they should just improve the few elements I like and that would fix it.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

27 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

To a point. Better in most people's minds means deeper and more fully developed. At some point they have to stop and be happy with the depth they've chosen.

 

Actually, you might be proving my point without intending to.

 

As I look at your list of features, I can't see a single one that would make anyone like the game less. Given infinite time and (human) resources, I would love it if TFP implemented every single one of them, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

Of course, that's a big caveat. Even if 7D2D was in alpha for as long as TFP existed as a company, they wouldn't be able to implement everything on that list.

 

Luckily TFP have taken a good stance to modding, and I think that's the right thing to do. Put the skeletons in place and let others who are interested flesh them out. As such, the only minor criticism I have of the game at this point, is that it's not yet completely set up for modders to include whatever game mechanics they want. But this is a feature like any other, and TFP are still improving on that as well. So I can't really fault them.

 

EDIT: At this point there's a little voice in my head saying "you're arguing with Roland on the internet." So I'm going to shut up now.

Edited August 25, 2021 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Roland]

I don't feel like we're arguing. We're just a couple of guys where one guy ruined the other guy's long standing record of not thinking about something.

 

I would love for any of those things to be implemented as well and I'm glad we have the modding talent we do so that we all have a good chance to get most of those things at some point. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

7 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

some people consider changing a baby's dirty diaper as "horror"

some feel dealing with hard headed kids to be "horror"

some consider teachers as "horror"

most feel that working is a "horror"

some act as tho missing the "LBD" in this game as "horror"

if you make a baby-diaper-changing simulator and classify that as horror, you will be sued for false advertising.
I mean you might be able to to do it in a satiric way with jumpscares, making fun of modern horror games (that is ACTUALLY a pretty funny idea)
BUT it is not a horrorgame and you know it.

 

It is a clearly defined genre with clear markers of what makes it horror.
 

8 hours ago, Jugginator said:

That comes from playing the game a ton. I've introduced a few new players lately and they're all terrified especially at night lol

the only way I could explain this is that they do not know where the loot is and therefor do not have weapons/ammo.
Which is nice. But only reinforces my point (if it is the case) that the gunloot is FAR too over the top for this game to be a horrorgame.

But if you know a different reason, please be my guest. But I don#t know how you could be scared with an ak47 and 50 bullets

 

[Aldranon]

22 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

On that note they need to have a casino POI with at least one working slot machine to win/lose some dukes.  But make it rigged with a bomb so if you try to dismantle it to get the dukes it explodes.

That's a great idea!

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But only reinforces my point (if it is the case) that the gunloot is FAR too over the top for this game to be a horrorgame.

What is it with you and game genres?

 

Before, we had a heated discussion about this (in your opinion) NOT being (also) a Tower Defense game.

Now, you're having another heated discussion about this NOT being (also) a Horror game.

 

Why don't we flip the script, and right off the bat you just tell us all, ignorant people, what this game is? 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

...

the only way I could explain this is that they do not know where the loot is and therefor do not have weapons/ammo.
Which is nice. But only reinforces my point (if it is the case) that the gunloot is FAR too over the top for this game to be a horrorgame.

But if you know a different reason, please be my guest. But I don#t know how you could be scared with an ak47 and 50 bullets

 

 

Delivering a game that does only lipservice to one genre that should have been delivered is actually something that could even legally have a chance, theoretically. That is just a way of saying that that argument has merit

 

And I agree that guns early destroy that horror element. But it also is clear that that is one of the most malleable things in the game. That doesn't even need a new alpha, that can be changed inbetween experimentals with some balancing, or a better difficulty setting or a relatively simple mod. And some of it is even on the road map for A20. Less ammo is "promised" as the traders were still not balanced in A19.

The damage pipe weapons will do is unknown and may be small enough in higher difficulties to not unset that early balance. But with them in the game an ak could drop even later in the game.

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

19 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Why don't we flip the script, and right off the bat you just tell us all, ignorant people, what this game is? 

An open world looter shooter with simulation and strategy sprincled in.

If you want to use the absolute bare bones description, you could use "TD" as in "there will at some time be a horde that comes in waves".
Also it was a TD game in A17. That was the problem. They followed one path and one path only. It still is to an extent (you can still funnel them into a corridor), but my argument is it SHOULDN'T be, because that means it devalues the aspect of defending a parimiter.
You can not have parimiter defence (3D where everything needs to be defended) and TD "one path only".
That was my whole argument. It is mutually exclusive.
1 =/= >1

 

18 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Less ammo is "promised" as the traders were still not balanced in A19.

Honestly, traderammo was never something I bought (maybe just to stock up for hordenight, because you need like 3000 bullets a night), but never for exploration.

The problem is with the lootcontainers at the end of a POI. They just give so SO SOOO much of everything, that you don't need to loot anything else, except for ressources.

Remember back in the day? When you were SO HAPPY if your city had a POI with a gunsafe in it?
You had to unlock it for 50 seconds, but you could hear zombies coming closer? Or even with the pickaxe where it lured Z's to your position?
Now you have 3 crates, a gunsafe, one or two ammobags and if it is a bigger poi a gunsafe AND a big chest thing in every poi.
That just screws the balance.

They should make it simply (if they can, but I heard they have so much space now for new POIs):
House (<T4) version normal: 1-2 boxes (working stiff, maybe even shotgun messiah or shamway... and MAYBE every 5th has a secret stach
House (<T4) version clear quest: 1-2 boxes, 2 ammocontainers, and every 2-3 pois have a gunsafe.
T4 can have an extra secret stach when clearing
and T5 & 6 can have what they have now WHEN DOING THE CLEAR QUEST.


That would already make it feel so much less like a looter-shooter.
It would still not quite be horror again, but it would give a reason to be scared.
I've made a list of things I think they should change (where nothing was any BIG effort, stuff like reviving a Z a random amount of seconds after it has been killed)

but I suppose I just don't know what I'm talking about 😕

[Matt115]

12 hours ago, Jugginator said:

 

That comes from playing the game a ton. I've introduced a few new players lately and they're all terrified especially at night lol

I have something like that in cod on outbreake but... by bug. long story short - they change multipler of dmg so  echo didn't die by one shot of ballstic knife so  he blow up me in the face. but it was bug

12 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

some people consider changing a baby's dirty diaper as "horror"

some feel dealing with hard headed kids to be "horror"

some consider teachers as "horror"

most feel that working is a "horror"

some act as tho missing the "LBD" in this game as "horror"

 

the list can go on.. and that itself is a "horror"

 

 

 

the horror must have been your play style.. i feel for them

Yeah but most people say that  f.e.a.r 1 is horror fps game but f.e.a.r is fps with elements of horror. this situation with dead space etc.

 

10 hours ago, Roland said:

 

To a point. Better in most people's minds means deeper and more fully developed. At some point they have to stop and be happy with the depth they've chosen. Usually how well an element is implemented depends on how much of a fan of that type of gameplay you are. I love the guns in the game but talk to a gun nut and TFP didn't go nearly far enough. I'd be down with insanity effects to make the horror aspects more robust but people not into all that would want a hard pass and say the horror part of the game is as robust as it needs to be. People who love farming games would probably be ecstatic if TFP spent six months adding seasonal effects, different types of fertilizers and chemicals, dramatically increasing the types of crops, adding fruit trees, and then adding a better nutrition system for breads, fruits, vegetables, meat and making harvesting and planting have more depth. There have been many threads calling for "better stealth" but I'm happy with the stealth footprint currently in the game. When Madmole talked about fixing water he meant just keeping it basic so that it functions properly but people who had their fan radar attuned to Seafaring gameplay immediately went to rafts, currents, fishing, water zombie lifeforms, etc.

 

There just isn't time and resources to go too far in any element so yeah, they should just improve the few elements I like and that would fix it.

Yeah i know what you mean. but looks at drones, new guns models, junk guns , old bandits models etc this looks for you more like f.e.a.r, paranoja, cry of fear , haunted house mod or mad max fallout ? 

Roland how much time is needed to make 1 character model ? let's say 1 week and you have 2 artists so 2 models per week. you make 4 models of "ghosts".  after that sometimes in some POI and night you can see for while ghost as your hallucinatory. that's how you can have horror using small number of resources

9 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't feel like we're arguing. We're just a couple of guys where one guy ruined the other guy's long standing record of not thinking about something.

 

I would love for any of those things to be implemented as well and I'm glad we have the modding talent we do so that we all have a good chance to get most of those things at some point. 

Honestly i don't have modding talent  but i  think added random spawning for few second "ghost" can be easier that add drones. and maybe add hanging guy on rope, some 5 corpses model and them in bigger number and on streets + make a day darker and this how you can change 7dtd into horror game .

@Roland this will a lot of easier that add a faction system for bandits

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

An open world looter shooter with simulation and strategy sprincled in.

If you want to use the absolute bare bones description, you could use "TD" as in "there will at some time be a horde that comes in waves".
Also it was a TD game in A17. That was the problem. They followed one path and one path only. It still is to an extent (you can still funnel them into a corridor), but my argument is it SHOULDN'T be, because that means it devalues the aspect of defending a parimiter.
You can not have parimiter defence (3D where everything needs to be defended) and TD "one path only".
That was my whole argument. It is mutually exclusive.
1 =/= >1

 

Honestly, traderammo was never something I bought (maybe just to stock up for hordenight, because you need like 3000 bullets a night), but never for exploration.

The problem is with the lootcontainers at the end of a POI. They just give so SO SOOO much of everything, that you don't need to loot anything else, except for ressources.

 

I was not talking about trader ammo but the quest rewards. Eventually TFP could just reduce the initial stock a trader has and let it grow over the days to get a right balance with the inventory.

 

And I always said that loot abundance should be changed with the overall difficulty setting. But do you play at 50% loot abundance or lower (a setting that already exists) ? If not, this is your own fault as wellv😉

 

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Remember back in the day? When you were SO HAPPY if your city had a POI with a gunsafe in it?
You had to unlock it for 50 seconds, but you could hear zombies coming closer? Or even with the pickaxe where it lured Z's to your position?
Now you have 3 crates, a gunsafe, one or two ammobags and if it is a bigger poi a gunsafe AND a big chest thing in every poi.
That just screws the balance.

 

In the first days in A19 you don't find an AK in a gun safe. You find blunderbusses and clubs. But what really upsets the balance is that in alphas before A17 the progression was from blunderbuss to pistol to shotgun to ak. Now AKs are supposed to be tier1 on the same level than a pistol and they are not. But they drop relatively early in the game

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the new 7D2D with more weapons, this is much better for variety of gameplay. But the new weapon balance isn't there yet. Disclaimer: I usually play with friends and at a lower difficulty level than my knowledge of the game would suggest, at higher difficulty levels maybe even an AK would not be enough to get out of any situation.

 

Anyway, without bandits and a final polishing Beta this IS just a momentary view of the game and the feel of the game will still change.

 

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

They should make it simply (if they can, but I heard they have so much space now for new POIs):
House (<T4) version normal: 1-2 boxes (working stiff, maybe even shotgun messiah or shamway... and MAYBE every 5th has a secret stach
House (<T4) version clear quest: 1-2 boxes, 2 ammocontainers, and every 2-3 pois have a gunsafe.
T4 can have an extra secret stach when clearing
and T5 & 6 can have what they have now WHEN DOING THE CLEAR QUEST.

 

Possibly, but I think without reducing ammo this won't make any difference for experienced players. Also this is already the case, a tier2 POI has much less loot boxes than a tier4/5. And experienced players know how to exploit the tier4/5s in early game. No chance in hell to make them forget.

But maybe overall there are too many loot boxes with too much loot in it. Which brings me back to the loot abundance setting which really should be part of the difficulty settings.

 

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

That would already make it feel so much less like a looter-shooter.
It would still not quite be horror again, but it would give a reason to be scared.
I've made a list of things I think they should change (where nothing was any BIG effort, stuff like reviving a Z a random amount of seconds after it has been killed)

but I suppose I just don't know what I'm talking about 😕

 

We are all hobby game designers here and think we have the solution, including me. But usually more than one solution is possible and they made it their profession and made this game so they could choose which solution they want. Our only power here is to tell them when a solution is not working. This is one of the hardest facts for players in any EA to accept, you can discuss anything, but you are never the designer of the game even if you feel nearly like one.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

Actually, you might be proving my point without intending to.

 

As I look at your list of features, I can't see a single one that would make anyone like the game less. Given infinite time and (human) resources, I would love it if TFP implemented every single one of them, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

Of course, that's a big caveat. Even if 7D2D was in alpha for as long as TFP existed as a company, they wouldn't be able to implement everything on that list.

 

Luckily TFP have taken a good stance to modding, and I think that's the right thing to do. Put the skeletons in place and let others who are interested flesh them out. As such, the only minor criticism I have of the game at this point, is that it's not yet completely set up for modders to include whatever game mechanics they want. But this is a feature like any other, and TFP are still improving on that as well. So I can't really fault them.

 

EDIT: At this point there's a little voice in my head saying "you're arguing with Roland on the internet." So I'm going to shut up now.

honestly i can agree with you but mods can be problems too. By mods i mean "great ideas" of some people. honestly most of mods to l4d2 , skyrim or 7dtd or "for fun" lub "porno" mod that's why enemy terrytory died.  So i lot of mods add thing not suits to 7dtd. damn i want to see mod similiar to immersive creature to skyrim but ti 7dtd

[Viktoriusiii]

@meganoth you talk about ammo...
and that I should play with 50% loot (which I already did... but it completely crashes the gamebalance)


But you forget one thing:
You shouldn't have the ammo Day 1-7 10PM.
But you need it for the hordenight.

I need about 100 bullets day 1-7 exploring, and I need 1500+ for hordenight (it scales with gamestage, but the ratio is more or less the same)

If there is less ammo, I can not defend for hordenight.
I would like it more, if I have the option to buy super expensive ammo at the trader for every weapon (I mean you can make endless ammo pretty quickly, if you are just lucky with the chemstation), but I want weapons to have more of an impact again.

Make weapons jam, scaling with their tier (with 6 never jamming) Maybe instant loss of 100 quality with one shot and you have to reload.
Make autofire guns SUPER rare and even then, let the durability scale exponentially (T1 50 shots per repair, T6 3000+ shots)
Make me never feel safe again. And those two are just the tip of the iceberg.
I know this is inevitable in the lategame. But then the genre switches to a builder and explorer type game, and that is ok.


PS:
just to rant a bit more.

Spoiler

Remember when they said they would bring weaponstats?
HA! Have you guys EVER felt a difference? MAYBE in a pistol, because +3 damage with a base of 15 is quite a lot)
But honestly, who cares about that little damage increase?
I was hoping for really individualized parts... instead they merged weaponparts (which is... ok I guess, but their new system is just so boring)
I think they should give guns "effects" like the player has.
"dirty" -> 5% increased chance for jamming, 10% lower accuracy
"extremely dirty"  -> 10% increased chance for jamming, 20% lower accuracy
"wet" -> 5% chance of bullet launching and weapon needs immediate repair.
"used" -> 1% chance of jamming, when it jams 30% chance to get "old"
"old" -> 0.01% chance (increasing over time) of breaking instantly, giving you only one weaponpart
"new" -> halves all negative buffs
"self-made" -> 10% quicker fire, it takes 50% longer for negative status effects to trigger



those are just off the top of my head to make weapons a bit more complex.

I know TFPs hate complexity, or at least think that in 90% of cases, complexity is not as important as inclusivity/accessability, but a man can dream.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

27 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@meganoth you talk about ammo...
and that I should play with 50% loot (which I already did... but it completely crashes the gamebalance)


But you forget one thing:
You shouldn't have the ammo Day 1-7 10PM.
But you need it for the hordenight.

You can survive Horde nights without having to use a ton of ammo (or very little at all).

 

I did a recent playthrough where I was set at Survivalist, Intelligence Build, max zombies.   I did use a mod that greatly decrease the amounts of materials you got looting and harvesting.  For the first 4 Horde nights, I just used arrows and my traps / melee.  The only time I brought out the guns is if I needed to thin the crowd some or had to deal with an annoying vulture (and this was more around Horde #3).  Even after I started using guns more often (mostly hunting rifle for headshots), I did not go through a lot of ammo to defend myself.

 

The playstyle you are playing, you might need a ton of ammo to survive.; but it is not a requirement to do so (or specifically a need).

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I was not talking about trader ammo but the quest rewards. Eventually TFP could just reduce the initial stock a trader has and let it grow over the days to get a right balance with the inventory.

 

And I always said that loot abundance should be changed with the overall difficulty setting. But do you play at 50% loot abundance or lower (a setting that already exists) ? If not, this is your own fault as wellv😉

 

 

In the first days in A19 you don't find an AK in a gun safe. You find blunderbusses and clubs. But what really upsets the balance is that in alphas before A17 the progression was from blunderbuss to pistol to shotgun to ak. Now AKs are supposed to be tier1 on the same level than a pistol and they are not. But they drop relatively early in the game

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the new 7D2D with more weapons, this is much better for variety of gameplay. But the new weapon balance isn't there yet. Disclaimer: I usually play with friends and at a lower difficulty level than my knowledge of the game would suggest, at higher difficulty levels maybe even an AK would not be enough to get out of any situation.

 

Anyway, without bandits and a final polishing Beta this IS just a momentary view of the game and the feel of the game will still change.

 

 

Possibly, but I think without reducing ammo this won't make any difference for experienced players. Also this is already the case, a tier2 POI has much less loot boxes than a tier4/5. And experienced players know how to exploit the tier4/5s in early game. No chance in hell to make them forget.

But maybe overall there are too many loot boxes with too much loot in it. Which brings me back to the loot abundance setting which really should be part of the difficulty settings.

 

 

We are all hobby game designers here and think we have the solution, including me. But usually more than one solution is possible and they made it their profession and made this game so they could choose which solution they want. Our only power here is to tell them when a solution is not working. This is one of the hardest facts for players in any EA to accept, you can discuss anything, but you are never the designer of the game even if you feel nearly like one.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@meganoth you talk about ammo...
and that I should play with 50% loot (which I already did... but it completely crashes the gamebalance)


But you forget one thing:
You shouldn't have the ammo Day 1-7 10PM.
But you need it for the hordenight.

I need about 100 bullets day 1-7 exploring, and I need 1500+ for hordenight (it scales with gamestage, but the ratio is more or less the same)

If there is less ammo, I can not defend for hordenight.
I would like it more, if I have the option to buy super expensive ammo at the trader for every weapon (I mean you can make endless ammo pretty quickly, if you are just lucky with the chemstation), but I want weapons to have more of an impact again.

Make weapons jam, scaling with their tier (with 6 never jamming) Maybe instant loss of 100 quality with one shot and you have to reload.
Make autofire guns SUPER rare and even then, let the durability scale exponentially (T1 50 shots per repair, T6 3000+ shots)
Make me never feel safe again. And those two are just the tip of the iceberg.
I know this is inevitable in the lategame. But then the genre switches to a builder and explorer type game, and that is ok.


PS:
just to rant a bit more.

  Reveal hidden contents

Remember when they said they would bring weaponstats?
HA! Have you guys EVER felt a difference? MAYBE in a pistol, because +3 damage with a base of 15 is quite a lot)
But honestly, who cares about that little damage increase?
I was hoping for really individualized parts... instead they merged weaponparts (which is... ok I guess, but their new system is just so boring)
I think they should give guns "effects" like the player has.
"dirty" -> 5% increased chance for jamming, 10% lower accuracy
"extremely dirty"  -> 10% increased chance for jamming, 20% lower accuracy
"wet" -> 5% chance of bullet launching and weapon needs immediate repair.
"used" -> 1% chance of jamming, when it jams 30% chance to get "old"
"old" -> 0.01% chance (increasing over time) of breaking instantly, giving you only one weaponpart
"new" -> halves all negative buffs
"self-made" -> 10% quicker fire, it takes 50% longer for negative status effects to trigger



those are just off the top of my head to make weapons a bit more complex.

I know TFPs hate complexity, or at least think that in 90% of cases, complexity is not as important as inclusivity/accessability, but a man can dream.

 

 

honestly i have idea about this problem but it would need a lot of works : 1. quality have only influence only on number of mods and durability.

2.  guns have less ammo but bigger dmg ( idk about value but  x1.5 and x2 bigger

3. weak zombie variant - you know old corpses , starved , burdned, decyied etc

 

this would change guns into something rare but a powerfull