Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

You can survive Horde nights without having to use a ton of ammo (or very little at all).

 

I did a recent playthrough where I was set at Survivalist, Intelligence Build, max zombies.   I did use a mod that greatly decrease the amounts of materials you got looting and harvesting.  For the first 4 Horde nights, I just used arrows and my traps / melee.  The only time I brought out the guns is if I needed to thin the crowd some or had to deal with an annoying vulture (and this was more around Horde #3).  Even after I started using guns more often (mostly hunting rifle for headshots), I did not go through a lot of ammo to defend myself.

 

The playstyle you are playing, you might need a ton of ammo to survive.; but it is not a requirement to do so (or specifically a need).

 

This is my experience too. In the first two weeks you don't need much ammo as the waves are depleted before the end of the hordenight. And with basic zombies melee cages are quite effective. There are lots of pois who can be used as one-off horde bases where it is simply your choice whether you shoot them with guns or simply whittle them down with arrows. Barbed wire is very effective in lengthening their time to approach so you always have less zombies to deal with at any moment.

 

@VictoriousIII: I can imagine your playstyle when you say you need 100 bullets per day in the first week. Contrast that with most people who use melee in the first days and use maybe 10, if at all. Naturally those players will not race up the level ladder as fast as you, but that is because you still have too much ammo (as you yourself noticed)

 

Now consider you had only half that amount of ammo. You would have to use melee on weekdays and build a horde base that saves you ammo, not just lead the zombies in front of your gun. 

 

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

This is my experience too. In the first two weeks you don't need much ammo as the waves are depleted before the end of the hordenight. And with basic zombies melee cages are quite effective. There are lots of pois who can be used as one-off horde bases where it is simply your choice whether you shoot them with guns or simply whittle them down with arrows. Barbed wire is very effective in lengthening their time to approach so you always have less zombies to deal with at any moment.

 

@VictoriousIII: I can imagine your playstyle when you say you need 100 bullets per day in the first week. Contrast that with most people who use melee in the first days and use maybe 10, if at all. Naturally those players will not race up the level ladder as fast as you, but that is because you still have too much ammo (as you yourself noticed)

 

Now consider you had only half that amount of ammo. You would have to use melee on weekdays and build a horde base that saves you ammo, not just lead the zombies in front of your gun. 

 

Well this can be done : you set 120 minutes per day in day you doing  quests at night you sit in cave using this metod and focusing on int and  quest perk it can be done. you will need at least 2 tier pistol with this number of ammo ( no perks so low dmg)

[Viktoriusiii]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

@VictoriousIII: I can imagine your playstyle when you say you need 100 bullets per day in the first week. Contrast that with most people who use melee in the first days and use maybe 10, if at all. Naturally those players will not race up the level ladder as fast as you, but that is because you still have too much ammo (as you yourself noticed)

I can see your point. But with Z's sometimes hitting you even though they are out of range and melee beeing... well the way melee is now, I can not confidently say that on insane I could fight off the horde with melee.
And spikes honestly don't do anything anymore. They get AT MOST 2 Zs and they will actively avoid them (because they are blocks)...

I know back in the day, 10 rows of wooden spikes (which was quite a lot of wood back then too) would basicially stop the first and maybe the 2nd hordenight.
MY houses always looked like porkupines (with logspikes at the end, but they had to remove those too #riplogspikes)

now, I usually don't even go for spikes, because I am far more efficient, just farming lootcrates.


I think I like my way (of really reducing weaponprobability) more than the ammo part...

because if you find a good weapon you should go  "AWWW HELL YEA!!!" and not "god dammit I only have 5 bullets for that!"
But the coreargument is the same, we are just talking about implementation.
But in its current state, while I am certain you could play it differently, this game is a lootershooter and horror is MAYBE an element with false floors dropping into a Z ridden bunker (actually the only time I got genuinely scared was a burned farm that dropped you into water with Z's sleeping all around you!)

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I can see your point. But with Z's sometimes hitting you even though they are out of range and melee beeing... well the way melee is now, I can not confidently say that on insane I could fight off the horde with melee.
And spikes honestly don't do anything anymore. They get AT MOST 2 Zs and they will actively avoid them (because they are blocks)...

I know back in the day, 10 rows of wooden spikes (which was quite a lot of wood back then too) would basicially stop the first and maybe the 2nd hordenight.
MY houses always looked like porkupines (with logspikes at the end, but they had to remove those too #riplogspikes)

now, I usually don't even go for spikes, because I am far more efficient, just farming lootcrates.


I think I like my way (of really reducing weaponprobability) more than the ammo part...

because if you find a good weapon you should go  "AWWW HELL YEA!!!" and not "god dammit I only have 5 bullets for that!"
But the coreargument is the same, we are just talking about implementation.
But in its current state, while I am certain you could play it differently, this game is a lootershooter and horror is MAYBE an element with false floors dropping into a Z ridden bunker (actually the only time I got genuinely scared was a burned farm that dropped you into water with Z's sleeping all around you!)

honestly debuffing spikes was hard into tower defense - in tower defense games traps do 80% of job you just support them ( like orcs must die) .  

Fake floors even doesn't sound like me like horror. more like cod or tomb rider.  horror could be if they put hallucations like ghost, screams etc

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I can see your point. But with Z's sometimes hitting you even though they are out of range and melee beeing... well the way melee is now, I can not confidently say that on insane I could fight off the horde with melee.
And spikes honestly don't do anything anymore. They get AT MOST 2 Zs and they will actively avoid them (because they are blocks)...

 

Exactly, they are blocks. So the zombies will not avoid them if you plant them level with the floor. They will even be drawn to them when neighboring spikes have been gone because the flat surface with the spike looks an easier way than the hole the other spike left.

 

Just put rows and rows of 1-block wide trenches into the path the zombies will take to approach you. Fill them with spikes and barbed wire and you will see them go willingly over all the spikes.

And even when all the spikes are gone the zombies still have to waste a lot of time jumping up and down the trenches left by the vanished spikes. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I know back in the day, 10 rows of wooden spikes (which was quite a lot of wood back then too) would basicially stop the first and maybe the 2nd hordenight.
MY houses always looked like porkupines (with logspikes at the end, but they had to remove those too #riplogspikes)

now, I usually don't even go for spikes, because I am far more efficient, just farming lootcrates.


I think I like my way (of really reducing weaponprobability) more than the ammo part...

because if you find a good weapon you should go  "AWWW HELL YEA!!!" and not "god dammit I only have 5 bullets for that!"
But the coreargument is the same, we are just talking about implementation.
But in its current state, while I am certain you could play it differently, this game is a lootershooter and horror is MAYBE an element with false floors dropping into a Z ridden bunker (actually the only time I got genuinely scared was a burned farm that dropped you into water with Z's sleeping all around you!)

 

[Aldranon]

12 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

You can survive Horde nights without having to use a ton of ammo (or very little at all).

 

I did a recent playthrough where I was set at Survivalist, Intelligence Build, max zombies.   I did use a mod that greatly decrease the amounts of materials you got looting and harvesting.  For the first 4 Horde nights, I just used arrows and my traps / melee.  The only time I brought out the guns is if I needed to thin the crowd some or had to deal with an annoying vulture (and this was more around Horde #3).  Even after I started using guns more often (mostly hunting rifle for headshots), I did not go through a lot of ammo to defend myself.

 

The playstyle you are playing, you might need a ton of ammo to survive.; but it is not a requirement to do so (or specifically a need).

 

True.  I rarely use any ammo during any horde night, until I have many 1000's of ammo in storage and only then just for the LOL's.

 

Building a (Stupendously) strong fort is something I always do and when I get tired of that I build a cheesy fort.  LOLs...

POI adventure is where this game is really amazing.   Some POI's are better than others but who would want the same thing all the time?

[Vedui]

Well, kickstarter developers "legally" owe their supporters (something) as defined in their goals.

 

Early Access on most platforms owe nothing beyond what's there at the time of purchase.

 

However most of this is not about "owing" anything. It's that good developers want to make a good game that their good customers can enjoy. Sometimes we run into not so good developers who are more scammy, but more often they genuinely try to do their best, and sometimes fail.

 

7 Days To Die has come a long way, and as many have said, likely have given their players value many times over for the cost of the game

 

And not because they OWE anything, but because they LOVE what they do, not just as a business.

[JCrook1028]

19 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

with Z's sometimes hitting you even though they are out of range

Your range is longer than theirs.

[axtroz]

Basically when you buy a game, you agree to an End-User License Agreement, or to Terms of Service in case of online games on official servers. Those pages of legal mumbo-jumbo tell you your rights and your obligations. No more, no less.

[Matt115]

7 hours ago, axtroz said:

Basically when you buy a game, you agree to an End-User License Agreement, or to Terms of Service in case of online games on official servers. Those pages of legal mumbo-jumbo tell you your rights and your obligations. No more, no less.

Not rly : sometimes if is something rly wrong (like cyberpunk) governament can take care about it

[RestInPieces]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:17 PM, Gazz said:

You mean Seven Cars to Drive?

 

One year of development for each car? 😛

 

None is entitled to anything. Neither buyers are entitled to a product that mainly exists in their imagination, nor the Pimps are entitled to not getting any criticism.

[Kyonshi]

12 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Not rly : sometimes if is something rly wrong (like cyberpunk) governament can take care about it

The Polish authorities went down on CDPR because of false advertising, basically. You cant sell a product that's not functional when its been advertised like it is. This offense is taken more seriously over there.

[Matt115]

45 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

The Polish authorities went down on CDPR because of false advertising, basically. You cant sell a product that's not functional when its been advertised like it is. This offense is taken more seriously over there.

yeah so it confirm my point: license is not the most important thing

[Jost Amman]

12 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

yeah so it confirm my point: license is not the most important thing

Yeah, but somebody actually has to SUE them!

It's not like there's a red alert light on the desk of a government officer  which lights up whenever an EULA is bullcrap! 

[Matt115]

6 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Yeah, but somebody actually has to SUE them!

It's not like there's a red alert light on the desk of a government officer  which lights up whenever an EULA is bullcrap! 

honestly i won't talk about politics but this well they make witcher 3 before and create good opinion about poland then they hmmm failed 

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, Kyonshi said:

You cant sell a product that's not functional when its been advertised like it is. This offense is taken more seriously over there.

 

I bet she thinks it's taken pretty seriously...

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

Early on I had more sympathy for people losing the early access lottery. Now I don’t.

we all know many early access games fail or end up being something completely different than expected. We all know buying a early access game carries risk and we all should avoid risks if we do not like them.

Regarding 7D2D while I agree it came to be in the beginning of early access, I have said they did it right, sold the game at a low cost. I have gotten plenty of value our of the $15 or $20 I spent on it and I feel it is a perfectly good game as is for what it cost in its current and probably since Alpha 12 form.

[Kyonshi]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

yeah so it confirm my point: license is not the most important thing

But nothing can be done to the Pimps in that sense. They dont sell a game that's not functional or disfunctional, its working and advertised as such. Plus, the game beneficiates from its early-access status. Cyberpunk 2077 was said to be working fine (on PS4/XBox1) when it wasnt.

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, Kyonshi said:

But nothing can be done to the Pimps in that sense. They dont sell a game that's not functional or disfunctional, its working and advertised as such. Plus, the game beneficiates from its early-access status. Cyberpunk 2077 was said to be working fine (on PS4/XBox1) when it wasnt.

well i didin't wrote about TFP. this topic is about game developers so ea, blizzard , konami etc is still on this topic