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Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?


Kyonshi

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5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Three times. They listened to the players who asked them to stick to their guns ditching LBD....

 

Still glad they did ditch it. It was poorly executed. The things you had to do if you didn´t want to fall behind in a group where simply stupid. Like running around the campfire in the first nights while crafting stone axes. Or sitting in the forge menu watching anvils beeing made. Meh. Don´t miss that at all.

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honestly this topic is not about 7dtd and TFP  only right? so yeah they own. In short = cyberpunk was mess. tons of bugs. So a lot of people demend a refund and they get them even if they bough in shops. Even polish governament administration decided to take care about this situation. More? 

A lot of devs who make a "trap"games on steam was banned.

And honestly players have a lot of tools to "spank" devs when they not deliver on promises - negative reviews on steam,  create memes, makes video about this on yt etc. this can discourage people to buy this game.

Bad opinions = stock drop. So yeah we have some solutions on this.

 

What about 7dtd and TFP ? idk honestly people complain about small number of updates. So maybe "small but offten"  will be good solution like : after 2 weeks we get update with junk guns and drones  only+ fixes . after that  2 weeks after - hd zombies after another 2 weeks news quest etc 

 

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I would say a recent example of the devs listening could be the focus on RWG in A20. Lots and lots of players critizised the vanilla RWG, wanted dense cities back and pointed to a popular mod as having a lot more features. I remember Madmole inquiring about this mod once and then, months later, A20's main focus was announced to be a substantial RWG upgrade.

 

My guess is that RWG seemed generally good enough for them internally, i.e. they would have been content with Kinnjaju just working on it beside his other task until release. But when they noticed so many players were not content with it and they themselves had the idea of needing biome-specific difficulty settings they decided to devote a whole alpha to RWG.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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34 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I would say a recent example of the devs listening could be the focus on RWG in A20. Lots and lots of players critizised the vanilla RWG, wanted dense cities back and pointed to a popular mod as having a lot more features. I remember Madmole inquiring about this mod once and then, months later, A20's main focus was announced to be a substantial RWG upgrade.

 

My guess is that RWG seemed generally good enough for them internally, i.e. they would have been content with Kinnjaju just working on it beside his other task until release. But when they noticed so many players were not content with it and they themselves had the idea of needing biome-specific difficulty settings they decided to devote a whole alpha to RWG.

 

 

i don't undestand people. they rly don't know everything what RWG need is newsstand XD

 

Btw i hope A21 will be focused on zombie , bandits character models and water. Honestly - i hope new updaded will in next month. and we will get new road map ( i mean i want to know what will be in A21)

Edited by Matt115 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

What about 7dtd and TFP ? idk honestly people complain about small number of updates. So maybe "small but offten"  will be good solution like : after 2 weeks we get update with junk guns and drones  only+ fixes . after that  2 weeks after - hd zombies after another 2 weeks news quest etc 

I don't think that's how it works, you know?

Everything you add to a (complex) game impacts some other feature/item/game mechanic.

 

If they did that, they'd probably have to triple the time for bug hunting and people will be extremely disappointed with the "current version" mess.

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1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I don't think that's how it works, you know?

Everything you add to a (complex) game impacts some other feature/item/game mechanic.

 

If they did that, they'd probably have to triple the time for bug hunting and people will be extremely disappointed with the "current version" mess.

 

Not only that but people don't appreciate having their saves broken so often. How many times has TFP claimed that starting with the next alpha they will probably be able to update without breaking old saves and it never pans out for them. It just isn't possible for this studio to do it and forcing everyone to start over and wipe all old maps every 2-3 weeks would not be good for morale. We will even get complaints about it when A20 hits and after such a long cycle since the last forced restart hit everyone.

 

I think 8 months would probably be the sweet spot if they could hit that. The items on their list for A20 couldn't be finished in that time frame unfortunately. The good news is that people like A19 and the A19/A20 changeover is totally an enhancement of existing popular mechanics, the world, the zombies, and tons of new places to explore. It is going to be very different than the A16/A17 changeover.

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3 hours ago, meganoth said:

I would say a recent example of the devs listening could be the focus on RWG in A20. Lots and lots of players critizised the vanilla RWG, wanted dense cities back and pointed to a popular mod as having a lot more features. I remember Madmole inquiring about this mod once and then, months later, A20's main focus was announced to be a substantial RWG upgrade.

 

My guess is that RWG seemed generally good enough for them internally, i.e. they would have been content with Kinnjaju just working on it beside his other task until release. But when they noticed so many players were not content with it and they themselves had the idea of needing biome-specific difficulty settings they decided to devote a whole alpha to RWG.

 

I'll add that if you look at the changes to zombie behavior from A17 until A19 you can see that faatal took community feedback very seriously. Now he didn't go as far as some people would like because they wanted behavior that completely matched pre-A17 zombies but I know for a fact that faatal watched streamers, looked at YouTubes, read the forums both here and on steam listening to what people didn't like about the zombies and also about how people were exploiting and finding loop-holes and weird limitations of zombies and he made changes based on that feedback.

 

I, personally, loved how the zombies behaved in A17. There was definitely something very horrific and never feeling safe that I liked when I knew that they could get to me no matter where I hid. For the first time ever they were scary monsters to me and I really liked that-- especially for POI exploration. But TFP listened to others instead of people like me and I can recognize that. I would never say that TFP didn't listen to the community because they made adjustments to zombie behavior that I didn't like.

 

Now, this brings up another interesting issue. Driving around on horde night. Some percentage of people in the community complained that you could drive around all night at zero risk. Some percentage in the community felt that driving around was just fine. This was an issue for years and TFP was aware of both sides. They went with preventing that behavior ultimately. Some may say that they don't like the solution that TFP implemented and may be mad that they aren't changing it but here we have another case of TFP listening to player feedback and acting in reaction to that but also sticking to their guns in how it is implemented despite more feedback that people didn't like super vultures. I don't even think that it is impossible that they may eventually make more adjustments to that in reaction to what they've read from player feedback. They do tend to like to do extreme draconian changes and then pull them back and soften them a bit over time.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I'll add that if you look at the changes to zombie behavior from A17 until A19 you can see that faatal took community feedback very seriously. Now he didn't go as far as some people would like because they wanted behavior that completely matched pre-A17 zombies but I know for a fact that faatal watched streamers, looked at YouTubes, read the forums both here and on steam listening to what people didn't like about the zombies and also about how people were exploiting and finding loop-holes and weird limitations of zombies and he made changes based on that feedback.

 

I, personally, loved how the zombies behaved in A17. There was definitely something very horrific and never feeling safe that I liked when I knew that they could get to me no matter where I hid. For the first time ever they were scary monsters to me and I really liked that-- especially for POI exploration. But TFP listened to others instead of people like me and I can recognize that. I would never say that TFP didn't listen to the community because they made adjustments to zombie behavior that I didn't like.

 

Now, this brings up another interesting issue. Driving around on horde night. Some percentage of people in the community complained that you could drive around all night at zero risk. Some percentage in the community felt that driving around was just fine. This was an issue for years and TFP was aware of both sides. They went with preventing that behavior ultimately. Some may say that they don't like the solution that TFP implemented and may be mad that they aren't changing it but here we have another case of TFP listening to player feedback and acting in reaction to that but also sticking to their guns in how it is implemented despite more feedback that people didn't like super vultures. I don't even think that it is impossible that they may eventually make more adjustments to that in reaction to what they've read from player feedback. They do tend to like to do extreme draconian changes and then pull them back and soften them a bit over time.

honestly : i have have something with memeory so i can mistake  Alpha - but in previouse they usually on blood moon just go throught dirt below walls, well this iritating but well even immersive, but in next alpha they started to jumping on theyself like in cs 1.6 so it was annoying as hell. well i see a lot of changes in zombie behaviour and... nothing. A lot of zombie variants were cuted. yeah we get hd models. well some of them looks good some of them worst (well look is subjective ) but still they number is so small.  People are doing exploit. ok so? i understand this problem in cod - well microtransation connected with blueprints, skins etc .  Ofc people say it will be broke PVP and i can agree. but i think everyone have sitation like - 2 this same nurce in house or 10 this same one 1 shoe hazmat zombie . honestly in diffrent game ofc number  of variants is limited - like dying light- but there workers have diffrent suit color, skin and wound. ofc you will meet this same zombie lady in this same thirt and skirt but they clothes looks diffrents so you don't have feeling that you kill army of clones. Honestly - if they will say straight -  we will add 20 more models of normal zombies and 10 special and tough - i would stop complain but without any information ? ok we will get zombie doc and radiactive zombie - but we loose cheerleder and footplayer so this give you 0 right? 

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I don't think that's how it works, you know?

Everything you add to a (complex) game impacts some other feature/item/game mechanic.

 

If they did that, they'd probably have to triple the time for bug hunting and people will be extremely disappointed with the "current version" mess.

well i can't agree if you add new guns for example no matter if you add 10 or 100 they will work almost this same. ofc this  have influence on meta , loot etc but you can  get info from players - silverbull shotgun suck because have so weak durability etc. and without opinions it will be hard to fix it. and honestly a new variant of zombie ( i mean normal zombie) can have connected with this variant like  animations rangdoll etc. but this type of problem you will get with big update too

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18 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

they started to jumping on theyself like in cs 1.6 so it was annoying as hell

 

And I love that they pile on top of each other and wish that it happened a bit more consistently. I love it when I knock out the stairs and a few still get up to where I am because they all piled up near the stairs. I think that it would be cool for an option that would give them ant-like instincts so that the piling up on each other wasn't just be accident or happenstance but intentionally done whenever they couldn't reach you. If zombies could see using each other to create paths to the player it would totally change the game and base design in a whole new way. Just as an option, though, since I don't think upsetting the entire base building meta like that as a default setting would be good.

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30 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

And I love that they pile on top of each other and wish that it happened a bit more consistently. I love it when I knock out the stairs and a few still get up to where I am because they all piled up near the stairs. I think that it would be cool for an option that would give them ant-like instincts so that the piling up on each other wasn't just be accident or happenstance but intentionally done whenever they couldn't reach you. If zombies could see using each other to create paths to the player it would totally change the game and base design in a whole new way. Just as an option, though, since I don't think upsetting the entire base building meta like that as a default setting would be good.

I wonder if that looks even cooler now that the zombies can crawl now.  Will need to test that out 😁

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

And I love that they pile on top of each other and wish that it happened a bit more consistently. I love it when I knock out the stairs and a few still get up to where I am because they all piled up near the stairs. I think that it would be cool for an option that would give them ant-like instincts so that the piling up on each other wasn't just be accident or happenstance but intentionally done whenever they couldn't reach you. If zombies could see using each other to create paths to the player it would totally change the game and base design in a whole new way. Just as an option, though, since I don't think upsetting the entire base building meta like that as a default setting would be good.

well pile is  stupid as hell for "slow" zombies. it works good in word war z game but this is just... bad idk even why - maybe a dmg system in l4d2 was better or not interesting characters.  and honestly i don't exepect good behavior from zombies - they just to try kill when they saw you and forget for some time

38 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I wonder if that looks even cooler now that the zombies can crawl now.  Will need to test that out 😁

honestly can you explain why people are "hype" over they behavior?

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1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@Laz Man sorry buddy
 

 

What @Laz Man meant is that they can duck and crawl when the space is less than 2m high. So for example, all those bases that use a 1 1/2 meter opening that we can duck and crouch through but the zombies can't....now the zombies can in A20. The animation is a crawl but faatal has not adjusted pathways for any zombie that allows them to crawl through a 1m space and won't do that until A21.

 

I posted a narrative of a recent A20 playthrough and posted that zombies surprised me by ducking and crawling through smaller spaces than they had been able to. But 1m egress for zombies is still on the back burner.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

honestly can you explain why people are "hype" over they behavior?

 

People who feel hyped over new behaviors (whether or not those behaviors seem to fit well with the game to other people) is because they offer new challenges for base building and new tactics for defending and fighting zombies. Old tactics may have to be adjusted or may not even work any longer. For some people, this is simply an annoyance and super frustrating. For others, the gameplay of adapting and exploring new tactics is fun and new or different behaviors set up the opportunity for that gameplay to happen again.

 

Think of it like a brand new POI. For those who love to explore and clear POI's they've never seen before, the prospect of 100+ new POI's generates a lot of hype in their hearts because they know they will have something new to play with.

 

The same is true for those of us who like to adapt and strategize vs zombie behaviors. New behaviors or changes to their behaviors that create new challenges get us hyped.

 

A lot of people hated A17 because they felt the behavior didn't fit what zombies should be able to do. For them, the most important thing was consistent dumb zombies that "don't have a degree in engineering or ESP abilities about structure they don't have line of sight to" For me and others like me, A17 was a blast because we just forgave the misfit behavior and got to having fun finding new ways to adapt.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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Back to OP’s original question…….if you read Steams rules or whatever they are called, when you buy any game through Steam, you are not buying a copy of the game, you are buying access to the game through Steam. So if you do something stupid and Steam bans you, you lose access to any ‘purchased’ games through Steam. You can’t take any games with you if you lose Steam. So do developers owe you anything? Absolutely not as the legal agreement is between you and Steam, not the developers of any game. However, good developers do try to do what they initially claimed. That being said, those that were involved in the Kickstarter for the game, it may be a different scenario.

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32 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

What @Laz Man meant is that they can duck and crawl when the space is less than 2m high. So for example, all those bases that use a 1 1/2 meter opening that we can duck and crouch through but the zombies can't....now the zombies can in A20. The animation is a crawl but faatal has not adjusted pathways for any zombie that allows them to crawl through a 1m space and won't do that until A21.

 

 

Okay... well that is not what the devpost said, but nice to hear that!

 

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

A lot of people hated A17 because they felt the behavior didn't fit what zombies should be able to do. For them, the most important thing was consistent dumb zombies that "don't have a degree in engineering or ESP abilities about structure they don't have line of sight to" For me and others like me, A17 was a blast because we just forgave the misfit behavior and got to having fun finding new ways to adapt.

 

While this argument certainly is valid, there was, I feel an even bigger problem, which was the gameplay.
You said zombies were scarier than ever before.
For me, they were just tightrope walking piniatas.
They were 100% predictable.
It was never easier to build a 100% hordesafe base with like 20 blocks and the fact that they all came running down the same small hallway made it extremely easy... laughably easy to survive ANYTHING.
There was no need to upgrade your whole base.
Just make everything cobblestone and leave a 1x2 opening and they will funnel through it.

While beeing absolutely hilariously bad behaviour, the biggest problem was that I and as far as I have read the reviews and feedback support me on this, that they became super predictable, and therefor easy to exploit. WAY too easy to exploit.
There were exploits in <A16 and there always will be.
But in A16 they were far more complex and without a youtube video to help, you probably didn't stumble upon it by chance.
In A17 it was literally "they walk in a line and always take the path of least resistance, lets make a funnel ontop of another funnel and just shoot lul"

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12 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

 

 

Okay... well that is not what the devpost said, but nice to hear that!

 

 

While this argument certainly is valid, there was, I feel an even bigger problem, which was the gameplay.
You said zombies were scarier than ever before.
For me, they were just tightrope walking piniatas.
They were 100% predictable.
It was never easier to build a 100% hordesafe base with like 20 blocks and the fact that they all came running down the same small hallway made it extremely easy... laughably easy to survive ANYTHING.
There was no need to upgrade your whole base.
Just make everything cobblestone and leave a 1x2 opening and they will funnel through it.

While beeing absolutely hilariously bad behaviour, the biggest problem was that I and as far as I have read the reviews and feedback support me on this, that they became super predictable, and therefor easy to exploit. WAY too easy to exploit.
There were exploits in <A16 and there always will be.
But in A16 they were far more complex and without a youtube video to help, you probably didn't stumble upon it by chance.
In A17 it was literally "they walk in a line and always take the path of least resistance, lets make a funnel ontop of another funnel and just shoot lul"

 

I can empathize with players who don't like tower defense game mechanics but this is actually working as designed.  There needs to be some degree of predictability in order to plan your defenses against it.   

 

The AI will most certainly continue to be tweaked further to hit a "sweet spot" of predictability but with some variation, especially as bandits and special infected are introduced.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

yep and you only need to watch the ai in action a few times to learn how or what its doing and then back to square 1. its a never ending argument. :)

 

Yep, until we have Hal9000 level AI lol, some players will eventually learn the AI behavior and request more randomness because now its too easy.... or claim its broken because they cant beat it. 

 

The demo zombie were exactly that until players cracked it and there are enough youtube videos showing how....😅

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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36 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

I can empathize with players who don't like tower defense game mechanics but this is actually working as designed.  There needs to be some degree of predictability in order to plan your defenses against it.   

 

The AI will most certainly continue to be tweaked further to hit a "sweet spot" of predictability but with some variation, especially as bandits and special infected are introduced.

 

 

But... this isn't a traditional TD game.
You can not make a traditional TD game (so a 2D game with only one path) in a 3D builder, without one or the other feeling useless.
They are mutually exclusive genres.
I like the TD aspect of the game actually. I love building traps and seeing them in action.
But not on a 2D plane, but as a 3D "denfed everywhere or they might break through" kinda thing.

25 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Yep, until we have Hal9000 level AI lol, some players will eventually learn the AI behavior and request more randomness because now its too easy.... or claim its broken because they cant beat it. 

 

The demo zombie were exactly that until players cracked it and there are enough youtube videos showing how....😅


Nonono.
there is a difference between " a toddler can make out the pattern" and out of 3 million players, a handful have cracked it and are sharing it online.
There IS a difference.

That is the same argument as the cheating argument.
There is a difference between a broken feature that lets you win the game easily (lets say RL had no friendly fire and endless ammo, and that was intended) and a cheat that you purposefully need to activate through a console, which you might also need to activate in the .ini file.

Saying "just don't activate the console" is valid.
Saying "just don't use the intended ingame possibilities" is not.

Same here.
Saying "a toddler can make a base that outsmarts teh zombies"
and "I needed to look in the internet, where every answer is somewhere" is not the same.

I still do not have a way to fight sploders. And I love it.
If it was super easy like "they are vulnerable to fire and instantly die", I wouldn't enjoy it.

But if I need to look online for like a specific trapsetup that kills them without exploding, then that is absolutely fine.
Those that want it, can look it up, those that don't, dont.

 

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

 

 

People who feel hyped over new behaviors (whether or not those behaviors seem to fit well with the game to other people) is because they offer new challenges for base building and new tactics for defending and fighting zombies. Old tactics may have to be adjusted or may not even work any longer. For some people, this is simply an annoyance and super frustrating. For others, the gameplay of adapting and exploring new tactics is fun and new or different behaviors set up the opportunity for that gameplay to happen again.

 

Think of it like a brand new POI. For those who love to explore and clear POI's they've never seen before, the prospect of 100+ new POI's generates a lot of hype in their hearts because they know they will have something new to play with.

 

The same is true for those of us who like to adapt and strategize vs zombie behaviors. New behaviors or changes to their behaviors that create new challenges get us hyped.

 

A lot of people hated A17 because they felt the behavior didn't fit what zombies should be able to do. For them, the most important thing was consistent dumb zombies that "don't have a degree in engineering or ESP abilities about structure they don't have line of sight to" For me and others like me, A17 was a blast because we just forgave the misfit behavior and got to having fun finding new ways to adapt.

honestly i feel 90% times absolutly nothing when i play alone. honestly changing "tactics" because updates is as you say frustrating - okay if you need change your tactic because for example there in new drowned zombie .  

What i can say about POI ? well some of them are good like electric shop with body in toilet.  I know it is a problem of random generatic worlds but they are quiet empty - i will give example . In dying light when you enter to "cointament zone" in one of them you can find hanging person. on cliffs you can find shoes and dead body in see. in nza you can find places looking like last stand of soldiers primitive barricades or places when they were attacked when they sleep. in l4d2 you can find maps of ceda, military barricedes cars in walls, etc.  7DTD have destroyed bulding but it's looks like-  someone drop atomic bomb on empty cities and someday survivors cames they fail and we get there. well what is need in my opions is details - hanging body on attick, skeleton on chair , posters about zombies maybe lefted whiteboards with random notes. drawnings on walls ashed body of atom bomb victim. honestly lore or random notes can be added easly. Now i know like - "there is a house if you destroy paitings you can find stuff, i have XX gamestange so i can only find tier 3 shotgun or smg. small chance for screamer.  Yep some pill and random zombie im cabin nothing interesting move on." i know this alpha but - it can be added some stuff in minecraft - big skeleton under ghost town, paitings in caves , notes in secret lab etc.  

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1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Okay... well that is not what the devpost said, but nice to hear that!

 

Yes, thanks :) I updated it to be more accurate.

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

You said zombies were scarier than ever before.
For me, they were just tightrope walking piniatas.

 

I think that's because I was focusing on exploring POI's and spending the night on the roof of a house or inside a building when I couldn't get back to my base in my comment and you are focusing on horde night defense in your comment. I agree with you that they were too easily exploitable on horde night with minimal building effort and as I posted above, this is another time when TFP listened to feedback and made adjustments. The scary feeling was in having zombies wander in from outside while clearing a POI or doing a quest or a wandering horde notice me at night when away from my designed defenses. When having to wing it and survive the night in some house the zombies would be so much scarier because they would often run up and break a wall to run around on the roof and then come in through another wall behind me. I had a lot of close escapes as well as several deaths due to that.

 

I would hear a pack of dogs and get myself to the roof of a house only to see them rush into the house and know that my death was really just a few moments away unless I could do something soon as I heard the sounds of blocks breaking and barking within.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, Roland said:

For them, the most important thing was consistent dumb zombies that "don't have a degree in engineering or ESP abilities about structure they don't have line of sight to"

Actually, that could be explained very easily by saying the zombies retain some memory of the places where they used to work and live.

It would make sense, since most zombies you run into probably died nearby and kept roaming around the same familiar places. :)

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But in A16 they were far more complex and without a youtube video to help, you probably didn't stumble upon it by chance.
In A17 it was literally "they walk in a line and always take the path of least resistance, lets make a funnel ontop of another funnel and just shoot lul"

Now, I understand that for some people that comes as something silly... BUT ... nobody seems to remember that 7D2D has been advertised also as a TD game.

If you accept that, we can easily say that with A17 the zombie AI was finally put back on track with the game genre.

 

Personally, I don't mind a bit of variety in AI pathing/behavior, but knowing that the general idea for Horde Night is that of a tower defense game is kind of comforting. :) 

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58 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But... this isn't a traditional TD game.
You can not make a traditional TD game (so a 2D game with only one path) in a 3D builder, without one or the other feeling useless.
They are mutually exclusive genres.

Absolutely not. There are several TD titles that have had a fair amount of success in the last years that are exactly 3D traditional TD games.

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2 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Absolutely not. There are several TD titles that have had a fair amount of success in the last years that are exactly 3D traditional TD games.

give me a single 3D builder TD game.
Like where you can build in 3D space, but the A.I. only ever follows the easiest path.

Because those two concept are, as I said, mutually exclusive. Where the one excels, the other one has to compromise.


If they only take one path, the rest of the build is pointless, if they don't take a single path, it is not a traditional TD (which is fine! I was just saying that them following one path makes building in 3D space totally obsolete.

Why build a maze, if they only ever follow one path?

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