Traders: why to diminish them and how

[Crater Creator]

Does anyone else feel like the traders are an overly dominant presence in the game?

 

By and large, if I need something, the trader is the most lucrative place to get it.  Weapons, armor, vehicles, defenses, decor, books, consumables, raw materials: the trader will have it.  They’ll have more variety on any given day than I’m likely to find in a week of looting POIs.  They’ll have higher quality items than I can craft, except for maybe a few things I really specialize in.  This has been the case for different builds, including ones that don't specialize in Intellect/Influence perks.

 

I feel like my character’s life revolves around the traders.  Literally, since their location outweighs any other consideration on where to build a base.  Does anyone not build really close to a trader, other than those going out of their way to add challenge?

 

And it’s the only place you’re completely safe, outside of PvP or erratic zombie behavior.  And they have free stations to use.  And as the quest givers, they have the exclusive power to reset all the loot containers and harvestable blocks in a POI.

 

I can anticipate some responses to this thread.  If you don’t like the traders, you don’t have to use them.  You can mod them out of the world pretty easily or just pretend they’re not there.  That’s true, but as with other balance concerns, such sentiments dismiss the possibility that the game could be better.

 

__________

 

How would I do traders?  Like food trucks.  In fact, they could use the box truck that was recently added to the

game and already has several variants.  In the morning, the truck appears at a semi-random place along one of the roads, with a map marker if you’ve seen that trader before or are close enough.  The trader character can stand inside, ready to interact with you, or it can just be a talking truck to save art budget.  The traders are presented as itinerants, that make a post-apocalyptic living by roaming the countryside to meet other survivors and swap goods.

 

The truck is just a truck.  You can’t hide inside, and it can be destroyed like any other vehicle.  Another truck can take its place tomorrow or however often the trucks change locations, not necessarily in the same spot.  The existing trader POIs are kept around, sans trader, for whenever the developers add bandit defense quests, or whatever their plans are for these locations.  The working stations and vending machines can stay there, but the POI is destructible like any other.  Quests can still be given by traders for now (they're the only choice until other NPCs are added).

 

Trader loot is more specialized per trader, as is already planned.  But they also have less inventory overall - say, a quarter of what they have now.  And it’s more closely aligned with your loot stage - not in lock step, but how much better a trader's stock is over what you can loot is at least controlled.  This is important for not overshadowing scavenging gameplay, and making it feel less like going to Costco and more like picking over a booth at the flea market.  A few items are randomly rolled to be ‘on sale’ for a limited time discounted price.  The trader perk (or your reputation with that trader, if the devs get around to that old idea) affects the number of items on sale and the amount of discount.  And when viewing all, the trader inventory UI is still sorted by category, e.g. all the clothing inventory first, followed by all the ammo/weapons inventory, etc., instead of whatever it's doing now.

 

The impact:

• No more weird, exploitable sections of land that can’t take any damage in this purportedly 100% destructible world.
• No need for the other immersion-breaking bits we have now, i.e. teleporting you away at night and making the trader invulnerable.
• Trader location no longer dictates a handful of best places to build a base.
• More incentive to explore more of the world, since the traders move around to unpredictable locations like air drops (the “get off your ass” philosophy).
• Traders are more of a bonus, and less of a reliable safety net to soften your survival concerns.
• The intended loot progression the devs have worked hard to implement is not so easily bypassed by buying your way to stuff that’s otherwise ‘too good’ for your current character.  (I know some people don't like leveled loot in the first place, but if that's the direction the game's going, it should be consistent).
• More and different POIs in a world can be in range for a trader quest over time.
• Expanded opportunities in PvP to reach a trader before others and/or set up an ambush.
   

Edited April 17, 2021 by Crater Creator
formatting (see edit history)

[Roland]

Sounds like an interesting idea. I do despise the trader magic protection barrier. Upping the prices by quite a bit could also work to lessen their impact. I doubt this change would make it into this game at this point but if they are planning for a trader compound in their next game this might be something they would consider as a change to how it was done in this game.

[Jost Amman]

@Crater Creator

I like your idea, but to be honest, you just described what "wandering merchants" (already planned) should be.

IMO the "problem" with the current traders can be quickly solved in future alphas with some simple balancing.

Once you balance them to be less OP you'll get the same results you listed, since it won't be so mandatory to build a base near them.

 

The only thing left out would be the invulnerable part, but I'm sure they'll find a way to balance that too.

All in all, I don't think your idea should replace the current shop traders, I think it should be added to what is available, especially if you think NPCs and bandits are coming...

 

Edit: I've just had this weird idea, where the current traders could be the "neutral" traders that work for Traitor's Joel, while your wandering traders could be the ones working for the two opposed factions (White River and The Duke). So basically the only way to get quests/gear for each faction would be from them. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Maharin]

I greatly prefer games without traders now and have for many months.  As they are now they cheapen the game experience and take far more away than they give back.

 

I think if they used a barter system instead of currency it would greatly improve the situation.  Want that Snickers they have in their inventory?  Find something they're willing to trade for it to become satisfied.  Yeah, it can be a lot more complicated to code, but worth it.  Also, just purchasing an expensive or rare item from a merchant could be a quest in and of itself.

 

Traders definitely need to be harder to get to and stay around.  Making them a near daily requirement was a mistake.  Having them change location and roaming regularly would help a lot to make them less accessible and therefore more of a bonus to find.  This is an apocalypse, traders also shouldn't be upstanding citizens willing to help and protect everyone that makes their way to their counter.  Some/most of them should be bullies and thieves.

[Darthjake]

Maybe also like treasure hunter lowers search radius for buried treasure you could have a "reputation" stat or skill with the traders, that would make them set up nearer to where you are.

 

[Fox]

I totally agree. Magic barrier protections and even the closing times are really annoying. Like anyone in an apocalypse would just stand there at the counter all day and close shop at night as though everything is normal. Realistically, the trader would be walking around, doing normal daily things like harvesting, crafting, etc to stay productive while he waits for that ever elusive player to show up to trade with him/her. I imagine the trader would even be willing to get out of bed to do some night time trading, so long as you don't sneak up on him/her. And the idea that I can't mine ores near the trader camp or harvest the plants and get teleported whenever I'm too close when it's closed... terrible implementation.

 

Traders need a lot of work and I think that instead of re-doing the UI for the 50th time or re-adjusting the looting balance for the 100th time, maybe the devs could put some focus on things like that.

[VegetarianZombie]

I honestly hope they remove the entire quest thing from traders completely and just leave them as actual traders. I have quit so many games I have started for a few alphas now (so I am talking this has been going on for years) after getting burnt out at all the endless driving back and forth between traders and poi for the quests over and over and over and over and over. This game doesn't have that great of a driving system and wasn't initially built for it so it works horribly as a heavy-driving amount game. This is not at all GTA5 to put it very kindly, I don't want to spend that much time driving.

 

I want to spend most of my time looting, exploring, and killing zombies. You know things like that. Not driving back and forth between multiple traders and poi again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (have I demonstrated how annoying this is yet?) since traders have the best of everything, especially loot with the now absolutely gutted non-trader loot system.

[FA_Q2]

....

 

It is rare that I find a wall of text that I agree with completely.

 

This is a fantastic idea.

[roy35150]

I modded them  out in my latest playthrough.

 

Thing is that your left with stacks of items that u dont want or need.

 

However it really makes u feel your alone in the world and makes for a pretty tough challenge...

[LissieS]

I completely agree with your idea, I hope the developers will either implement it in the near future or correct the balance

[Gamida]

Maybe traders could be added to everyones list when they join as a late(r) or ongoing quest. The outposts could be there but in bad shape. The quest could be to over time repair the base. When it is finally finished, taking a while as much is needed (stone, cement, iron, forge iron, forged steel, etc) then a trader could move in. Making the base really strong but not indestructable would mean that later trader quests could include getting some items from another poi or fellow trader to repair parts of the base again.

There could also be quests that risk your own money. He will give you $X amount of goods that you have to get to his brother (sister) trader. You pay the $X amount and if you successfully get the goods there then the trader pays you 2X, 3X or whatever an appropriate amount is. If you get killed then there goes your investment. Maybe multiple choice quests with variable risk vs reward amounts.

In my head it sounds ok but may be a nightmare to add.

[Matt115]

i think it is terrible idea and i will write some reasons why : 

1. trades cant't be destructible because... zombie will attack it because AI programing so it will be frustrating if trader just died because  can screamer respawn somewhere near of them right? 

2. Do you know STALKER? Sidrovicz sitting in his bunker, docs have bunkers to, rest is sitting in faction bases. It will be rly hard to create " protection" against zombie  using npc. Traders in 7DTD are working like in stalker or mmo. And it totally logical. They have place to keep stuff ,field when they grow food  etc.  Just add guards on few npc ( a made topic about how I see this ). So this is logic that they siting if safe place and just sending their mans  to get stuff and sell to others. Stupid is that zombie can destroy stone, brick etc.  Zombies are not Tank from l4d2 or  fatanic from NZA. Tanks have big mussle  and fantaic is half inteligent and  explosive . So zombie destroying everything is less immersive but "mechanic" logical . Traders'bases are " immersive" logical but not "mechanic" logical. If we accept that zombies can destroy everything that would mean.. 7DTD coudn't have people because they will be wiped out  in 99%  1-2 days after day 0 ( people need to sleep ,  plains fuel, so  who will survive? People living on small islands ) . This is stupid so we can give away this idea. Zombies can only destroy windows , doors , mesh and everything that normal people can destroy with bare hands and time?  Players will just making a stone or brick everywhere "exploiting" system.  Track are even stuppider idea.  Ofc cars like "Dawn of the dead" have sens... for the while. They just wanted to get into ships. Near they have a lot of fuel right? But in long term it is just stupid as resident evil films.  Trucks burns a lot , can be easy stopped by wrecks , terrain mines or zombies or by bandits. So fuel will end rly soon or something will stop them. So "stationary" bases are more logical just put guard on wall and near the gate. So yeah teleportation is stupid and can be make better like - guard will shooting to you when you attacked a base or start shouting to go away and night and if you don't do this , they will start shooting. 

3. Okay. If you want to make them respawning l sometimes on the map  can... crash a server with collisions XD Yep bugs - respawining on brick - crash. In water- crash , on grass? crash. So You have two options  :1- trader truck is something like truck or bike . it is good idea because it will not spawn in something ( in 75% cases) but what if you respawn it in air? Well they can fall on something physic get crazy = booom or crash.  2. Is respawining like Terraria "meteor " or "corruption"  well it will be safer but it will be programing hell

4. Okay. You manage to create how to make them without blowing up you PC? Cool. Now will be problem with "where". It will be  stupid if they respawning on edge of bridge or minefield right?  In cites too because they are zombies everywhere so Boom.  Dessert? vultures = boom .  Wastelands? dogs = boom

5. Okay. You manage to make a "rules" when they  can respawining.  Cool but it can broke quest. Like - you are going somewhere 2 km and back. You have only 2 km to bring a quest item. You are going back 250 meters left... and puf despawining . Now you go 4 km to the snow biom having hope this time he will not despawn again or something kill you making quest a failure.

 

 

So just traders in bases just add some npc , small changes like they forcing you to go away and everything will be okay.  Yeah you can't destroy it , zombies too but it have  more sens that zombie make world flat right?

@Crater Creator If you have ideas how to make it logical and "programming" possible ( it don't need to spend a year making it and don't have big bugs) just write it.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

On 4/24/2021 at 3:00 PM, VegetarianZombie said:

I honestly hope they remove the entire quest thing from traders completely and just leave them as actual traders. I have quit so many games I have started for a few alphas now (so I am talking this has been going on for years) after getting burnt out at all the endless driving back and forth between traders and poi for the quests over and over and over and over and over. This game doesn't have that great of a driving system and wasn't initially built for it so it works horribly as a heavy-driving amount game. This is not at all GTA5 to put it very kindly, I don't want to spend that much time driving.

 

I want to spend most of my time looting, exploring, and killing zombies. You know things like that. Not driving back and forth between multiple traders and poi again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (have I demonstrated how annoying this is yet?) since traders have the best of everything, especially loot with the now absolutely gutted non-trader loot system.

You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.

[Matt115]

11 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.

Yeah and no. They are like field upgrades in cod or granades in bordelands . You don't need use it but it is the best way to get parts books or  mods. So it will be hard to survive without them

[FA_Q2]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.

That no one is forced to use them in no way address the reality that they are unbalanced.

 

He can ignore the trader but what he is asking for is not removing them but bringing them in line with other means to progress.  Right now, the trader is the most powerful asset on the map by massive amounts.  I could easily survive with a trader and nothing else on the map at all save for one building that you can quest at.  There is no other resource that comes close.

 

I like the idea of nerfing the inventory and randomly spawning them each day, that makes the trader both mobile so it is less a major concern in where you set up, requires more searching to locate them and ultimately makes running into it a nice surprise.  It is really nice to see them expanding the quest system, now just need to balance the trader as a world asset to something less than an entire major city but more than any POI would be.

 

Now it feels more like a fetch quest random generator.  

[Roland]

2 hours ago, FA_Q2 said:

He can ignore the trader but what he is asking for is not removing them but bringing them in line with other means to progress. 

Well, the guy he was responding to was calling for a complete removal of quests and I have to agree that people who want the quests completely removed should try a playthrough without them to just make sure they like the game without them. Then, if they find they do really like the game without them then they won't really be tempted to use them so the necessity for their removal kind of goes away anyway.

 

I played the game before there were traders and we pretty much spent our time mining, building, exploring, and scavenging POIs. Quests simply add an objective and extra reward to the "scavenging POIs" part of what we were already doing. Remove quests and we will STILL be scavenging POIs.

 

I like CC's suggestion because it removes the need for protected land and a static destination that is always the same. It adds some variety. But I still want to be able to shop for cool stuff and I still want to do quests-- you know-- since I'm going to be scavenging POI's anyway...

[FA_Q2]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

Well, the guy he was responding to was calling for a complete removal of quests and I have to agree that people who want the quests completely removed should try a playthrough without them to just make sure they like the game without them. Then, if they find they do really like the game without them then they won't really be tempted to use them so the necessity for their removal kind of goes away anyway.

 

I played the game before there were traders and we pretty much spent our time mining, building, exploring, and scavenging POIs. Quests simply add an objective and extra reward to the "scavenging POIs" part of what we were already doing. Remove quests and we will STILL be scavenging POIs.

 

I like CC's suggestion because it removes the need for protected land and a static destination that is always the same. It adds some variety. But I still want to be able to shop for cool stuff and I still want to do quests-- you know-- since I'm going to be scavenging POI's anyway...

Point taken and I agree.  I do not want to see quests removed but they are not in a good place atm either.  It seems the devs are working on that though with changes to dig quests and the new restore power quests.  I cant wait to see how they expand the quest experience.

[wizard puke]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

But I still want to be able to shop for cool stuff and I still want to do quests-- you know-- since I'm going to be scavenging POI's anyway...

This is true. But it also means if you're being efficient (and not looking for something specific like tires or something) you're always going to go to the place the trader randomly picks. I know you don't have to do it that way, but I definitely don't just roll through city blocks for the hell of it as much as I used to. It's always a to b and then back to a again. Not that that is bad. It's just hard to not feel like you're "falling behind" by just exploring since the game is on a timer and balanced around doing those quests.

Edited April 26, 2021 by wizard puke
jibber jabbering on and on like a clown on edibles (see edit history)

[Spatch]

For me, the only trader changes I'd like are:

1.  Add a way to specify favorite items so when I bring up the list of items, I can just click favorites to find the ones for which I am looking.

2.  Add the ability to do all previous quest levels.  Once you have leveled up to quest level 2, then you should still have level 1 quests available, level 3 should still have level 2 and 1, etc.

3.  Add a feature where POIs are not reusable as quest destinations.  This can be a configuration option but I'd be OK with never reusing a POI.  This also would remove my worry that a quest might reset the POI I've taken over for either a base or horde-base since I can only have one land-claim block.  (Alternatively, having two land-claims would remove this worry).

4.  I'd be OK with removing invulnerability, but since most players, after 50 days or so, have super-fortified bases, I'd be OK with stainless steel trader bases and regular vault doors that just lock after-hours.  If we can do it, it goes to reason a trader could as well.  Add a guard or two that will shoot-to-kill after hours and that would be fun.

[Matt115]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

Well, the guy he was responding to was calling for a complete removal of quests and I have to agree that people who want the quests completely removed should try a playthrough without them to just make sure they like the game without them. Then, if they find they do really like the game without them then they won't really be tempted to use them so the necessity for their removal kind of goes away anyway.

 

I played the game before there were traders and we pretty much spent our time mining, building, exploring, and scavenging POIs. Quests simply add an objective and extra reward to the "scavenging POIs" part of what we were already doing. Remove quests and we will STILL be scavenging POIs.

 

I like CC's suggestion because it removes the need for protected land and a static destination that is always the same. It adds some variety. But I still want to be able to shop for cool stuff and I still want to do quests-- you know-- since I'm going to be scavenging POI's anyway...

Yeah , i play sometimes in at least before achivments but it was sometimes but when zombie knew were i was all time at night make annoying. I can agree we will still be scavenging POI'S but there is small diffrent . For example - in cities there is 30-40 houses with random variants . I get quest to find  item . Another house but i found bunker in basement. If i would find it without quest? Maybe yes maybe not , it was just another house. Some POI's are too risky because you will find only junk and if swarmed with zombie dogs. It looks rly interesting good design but i never would go there without quest etc  Making quest is good option to get coins right? I remember when i was playing with my friens and we just coudn't find beaker. Trader have it but we hadn't cash for it ( he was pretty far away from our base) . Sometimes we have situation like : it was pointless to scanvergers POI's because in most houses we don't find nothing interesitng so we focused on the 3 things : military bases hospitals and shops, doing quest and cutting tree with mining to make a defens ( well making 1000 wood spikes with steel axe take a lot of times ). If you want to make a bike  or truck you need to focus on this types of perks , if you want to make turrets lights everywhere you need perks i electricity and salvage operations. So make 2 stages like - nomad lifestyle - you are going around doing quests scanvenging everything etc and settlement stage- you focus on defenss workstations, farming , making better stuff with doing quest with ocassionaly going something for parts sound better that going everywhere just to go everywhere 

[Roland]

6 hours ago, wizard puke said:

It's just hard to not feel like you're "falling behind" by just exploring since the game is on a timer and balanced around doing those quests.

That’s not true though. The game is balanced around your gamestage and the timer ticks according to the pace you choose. Maybe it’s counter-intuitive but the more efficiently you try to play the more you are going to feel like you are falling behind. 
 

The game used to ramp up in difficulty based mostly on the game day but that is no longer true. Now it ramps up in difficulty based on your gamestage which increased as quickly or slowly as you choose to play. 
 

Speed run the game and that timer is going to fly. Play at a leisurely pace and the timer slows way down. 
 

By spamming quests you are not just keeping up with the timer, you are also accelerating it. 

[Matt115]

52 minutes ago, Roland said:

That’s not true though. The game is balanced around your gamestage and the timer ticks according to the pace you choose. Maybe it’s counter-intuitive but the more efficiently you try to play the more you are going to feel like you are falling behind. 
 

The game used to ramp up in difficulty based mostly on the game day but that is no longer true. Now it ramps up in difficulty based on your gamestage which increased as quickly or slowly as you choose to play. 
 

Speed run the game and that timer is going to fly. Play at a leisurely pace and the timer slows way down. 
 

By spamming quests you are not just keeping up with the timer, you are also accelerating it. 

 

Well game stage is important right but it is rly hard to survive blood moon without at least shotgun and 50+ ammo , yeah you can find guns in random POI but it is usually not enough, and cutting down trees consuming a lot of time to create defens. So maybe i accelarating gamestage but i have enought defense to counter it 

[Roland]

27 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

Well game stage is important right but it is rly hard to survive blood moon without at least shotgun and 50+ ammo , yeah you can find guns in random POI but it is usually not enough, and cutting down trees consuming a lot of time to create defens. So maybe i accelarating gamestage but i have enought defense to counter it 

 

My point is that the reason it is rly hard to survive blood moon without at least a shotgun and 50+ ammo is because of you turbo boosting your gamestage. If you back off of leveling up so quickly then your first couple of blood moons are actually pretty tame. Gamestage is everything and when you play in a way that accelerates the xp you earn, of course it will feel like you're always behind the timer. Like I said, start a new test game and try ignoring the trader and do no quests during the first week and try surviving the first bloodmoon with whatever you've found simply by scavenging POI's on your own. It will be a cake walk.

 

For me, the best zone is to do a single quest each day. Trying to spam 3-4 quests each day to maximize the xp gains and rewards and money is not ideal nor is just ignoring quests altogether and wishing them to be removed. Moderation is key in my opinion. I usually do a quest and scavenge nearby POI's as well using a chest to gather all the best stuff. Sometimes I don't get back to the trader the same day to get my reward. I'll return the next morning and pick up a new quest for that day.

 

That's when I play solo. With my family it is different. We all share our quests and then do them all together so we end up doing a few each day but then there are more of us to take on the horde as well.

[Matt115]

28 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

My point is that the reason it is rly hard to survive blood moon without at least a shotgun and 50+ ammo is because of you turbo boosting your gamestage. If you back off of leveling up so quickly then your first couple of blood moons are actually pretty tame. Gamestage is everything and when you play in a way that accelerates the xp you earn, of course it will feel like you're always behind the timer. Like I said, start a new test game and try ignoring the trader and do no quests during the first week and try surviving the first bloodmoon with whatever you've found simply by scavenging POI's on your own. It will be a cake walk.

 

For me, the best zone is to do a single quest each day. Trying to spam 3-4 quests each day to maximize the xp gains and rewards and money is not ideal nor is just ignoring quests altogether and wishing them to be removed. Moderation is key in my opinion. I usually do a quest and scavenge nearby POI's as well using a chest to gather all the best stuff. Sometimes I don't get back to the trader the same day to get my reward. I'll return the next morning and pick up a new quest for that day.

 

That's when I play solo. With my family it is different. We all share our quests and then do them all together so we end up doing a few each day but then there are more of us to take on the horde as well.

I forget about something - well zombies offten climing each other and we were making a 5-6 layers of brick and steel plate outside side of wall but it were just 3-4 tall  so that's was a bigger problem that gamestage. i play only with my friend and he is litteraly a dwarf : he just sitting in mine grinding a iron , coal , sometimes he go outside to smellt stuff and takes potato , corn etc cuting trees . I in this time going to random POI , making some  quest  ( it depand when trader is and what interesting he have) , making electricity and working stations etc So this depands of game style. But in my opinion  "wandering" traders are less immersive that "stationary" of course well protected land is unrealistic but it is better that some random guy destroy post because he like to trolling  on server  or be destroy by zombies.  Ofc in 7dtd their protection are from mechanic point poorly  but from immersive point bases look rly good - they are setted on open field good view what is going on outside, enought light with solar panel, tall enought to be protection against snaipers , have field etc

[Maharin]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

Well game stage is important right but it is rly hard to survive blood moon without at least shotgun and 50+ ammo

 

You can survive a blood moon without gun or ammo by hiding in a tougher POI.  Sit on the top floor of a hotel with some head cover and you can survive.  Killing every last zombie is another matter entirely, but survival is easy if you can be patient.