Stone->Iron->Steel is unbalanced.

[Solomon]

Before anything this post was inspired by @Roland by making me calculate just how good are steel tools are.

 

Logically in a game with a tier system each tiers are better then the previous in either all or in some aspect and get balanced around with the idea on what should be the cost of the gains from higher tiers.

 

Our game has stone tools, primitive and cheap as hell, iron tools what are costly to make and use more stamina but still quite early and finally steel tools what need lots of effort as they are both expensive and their key component is rare too.

 

Now to show the problem heres some quick MATHS :

 

 

Stone Axe: 21-32 block damage for 8 stamina

Iron Pixaxe: 37-52 block damage for 18 stamina

Steel Pixaxe: 66-94 damage for 26 stamina

 

To destroy an 1000 hp block with a Q1 tool you are going to use up 381 stamina with the Stone Axe in 47 hits, 486 stamina with the Iron Pixaxe in 27 hits and 393 stamina with Steel Pixaxe in 15 hits.

At max quality its 31 hits with the Stone Axe for 250 stamina, 19 hits with the Iron Pixaxe for 346 stamina and 10 hits with the Steel Pixaxe for 276 stamina.

 

Stone Shovel: 38-57 block damage for 16 stamina

Iron Shovel: 47-69 block damage for 20 stamina

Steel Shovel: 71-102 block damage for 24 stamina

 

To destroy an 1000 hp block with a Q1 shovel you are going to use up 421 stamina in 26 hits with the Stone Shovel, 425 stamina in 21 hits with the Iron Shovel and 338 stamina in 14 hits with the Steel Shovel.

 

Stone Axe: 21-32 block damage for 8 stamina

Iron Axe: 46-66 block damage for 19 stamina

Steel Axe: 89-130 block damage for 30 stamina

 

To destroy an 1000 hp block with a stone axe you need 47 hits for 381 stamina with the stone axe, 21 hits for 413 stamina with the Iron Axe and 11 hits for 337 stamina with the Steel Axe.

 

The pattern in all cases is the same, technically iron tools are worse then their previous tier the stone tools. The effort to make them results in a gear whats only pro is that they are faster but the moment you scale up your base block damage throught your server settings that extra speed becomes negligible.

 

The fact that steel tools are this close in stamina usage to stone tools is also baffling because you are questioning on why waste the materials on crafting iron tools when you not only get a much faster tool later on but something what uses almost the same if not lower amount of stamina too.

 

Since the HP of blocks doesnt scale unless we talk about PVP, Stone and Steel tool will always stay the superior choice of tools.

 

Ideally the numbers should look like this for example on the axes should look like one of these:

 

 

Balanced upgrades tiering (damage increases steadily while stamina rises).

Stone Axe: 21-32 block damage for 8 stamina ( 381 stamina/47 hit )

Iron Axe: 32-43 block damage for 16 stamina ( 500 stamina/31 hit )

Steel Axe: 43-54 block damage for 24 stamina ( 558 stamina/23 hit )

 

 

Long term Upgrades tiering (damage increases and stamina usage decreases)

Stone Axe: 21-32 block damage for 10 stamina ( 476 stamina/47 hit )

Iron Axe: 33-60 block damage for 15 stamina ( 454 stamina/30 hit )

Steel Axe: 61-100 block damage for 25 stamina (409 stamina/16 hit )

 

 

Pure Upgrades tiering (damage increases and stamina usage drastically goes down)

Stone Axe: 21-32 block damage for 10 stamina ( 476 stamina/47 hit )

Iron Axe: 33-44 block damage for 9 stamina ( 272 stamina/ 30 hit )

Steel Axe: 44-55 block damage for 8 stamina ( 181 stamina/ 22 hit )

 

Each one of these go with the idea that the next tier in one way or another is better then the previous and each one of them support the idea that iron tools are in fact an upgrade to the stone equipment.

 

With this in mind i agree that any kind of steel tool on day 1 (supposedly that shoundnt been possible but thats another topic) is overpowered with the current implemention, so i suggest to balance them out so either the middle grade gets better or the high grade gets worse.

[Liesel Weppen]

15 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Now to show the problem heres some quick MATHS :

And now correct your math by taking ALL variables into accout, e.g. TIME. All of them have different swing times. So even if a steel pickaxe requires 392 stamina for 15 hits, while the stone axe only uses 385 stamina for 47 hits, with the steel pickaxe the block is destroyed much much faster.

 

Also probably you won't reduce stamina use by the tool in general, because your stamina regen also increases. I usally don't use iron/steel tools early, even if i find one, because they use too much stamina. That is no issue if you have skilled better. In later game i never use a stone axe again, just because it safes 10 stamina per tree you cut down.

[Solomon]

6 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

And now correct your math by taking ALL variables into accout, e.g. TIME. All of them have different swing times. So even if a steel pickaxe requires 392 stamina for 15 hits, while the stone axe only uses 385 stamina for 47 hits, with the steel pickaxe the block is destroyed much much faster.

Yeah, i said that. I dont complain about the difference between stone VS steel but that Iron VS everything seems terribly done.

 

Iron tools as they currently are manage to cost more stamina to use in dealing with the same block and as such they are kind of slower than dealing with the block with Stone or Steel, to destroy an 1000 hp block with pixaxes the iron uses 100 more stamina then the other two option what means that on day 1 and on day 100 its still worse then the previous and the next tier.

[Liesel Weppen]

6 minutes ago, Solomon said:

 with pixaxes the iron uses 100 more stamina then the other two option what means that on day 1 and on day 100 its still worse then the previous and the next tier.

No, the iron tool is faster than the stone one but still slower then the steel one.

 

So in the end, until you have steel tools you can decide if you want to take a long time but save 100 stamina with stone, or do it quick and "waste" stamina with iron.

I usually don't use stone tools from when i have enough stamina regen to use iron. Because iron is much much faster.

[Solomon]

20 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

No, the iron tool is faster than the stone one but still slower then the steel one.

 

So in the end, until you have steel tools you can decide if you want to take a long time but save 100 stamina with stone, or do it quick and "waste" stamina with iron.

I usually don't use stone tools from when i have enough stamina regen to use iron. Because iron is much much faster.

With the stamina regen rate of approx 10/sec (my current ingame regen rate) you also need to account in atleast 10 second downtime for the iron tool to gain back that 100 stamina.

 

With 100 starting stamina you need approx 28 seconds have enough stamina to destroy the 1000 hp block with an iron tool this is 38 second downtime and with steel its 29 seconds.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

20 minutes ago, Solomon said:

With the stamina regen rate of approx 10/sec (my current ingame regen rate) you also need to account in atleast 10 second downtime for the iron tool to gain back that 100 stamina.

There are buffs for stamina regen, like coffee.

Running out of stamina only comes into account, if you do heavy mining and not just need to remove one or two blocks.

And as i already said: WHEN having enough stamina regen, i use iron instead of stone. That is not on day 1 without any skills (with the progression system you won't even obtain iron or steel tools that early).

Comapring performance with no skills at all is pointless. Without any skills also steel tools won't be really usable. If you have skills to keep up stamina, TIME is the relevant factor. And THEN even iron is far better than stone.

[canadianbluebeer]

Don't forget the Ergonomic Grip and SexRex.

That and coffee, well, you can swing all day long, and yes, time is a factor.

 

I swap to iron once I get to 2 or 3 of sexrex, steel, I wait until it's 4/4 and I can make Q5 tools.

(bunkerbuster, iron breaker, ergonomic grip) 

 

Now, if you have all the mining books, would be funny to see how the stone axe does, as you still have the same chance

to one shot the block. 

 

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, Liesel Weppen said:

There are buffs for stamina regen, like coffee.

Running out of stamina only comes into account, if you do heavy mining and not just need to remove one or two blocks.

And as i already said: WHEN having enough stamina regen, i use iron instead of stone. That is not on day 1 without any skills (with the progression system you won't even obtain iron or steel tools that early).

Comapring performance with no skills at all is pointless. Without any skills also steel tools won't be really usable. If you have skills to keep up stamina, TIME is the relevant factor. And THEN even iron is far better than stone.

Okay heres the thing, if we take all of that into account meaning you are buffed by drinks and food, running the proper perks and have all the books you are still better with stone and steel tools because they all affect everything in the same way.

 

It doesnt matter much in the argument how much perks and buff you amass if they all affect the same item type, the perk what increases the damage of the stone axe is the same what increases the damage of the steel and iron pixaxe.

 

 

1 hour ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Without any skills also steel tools won't be really usable.

My entire discussion on this thread is about how without any skills and boosts steel tools are the universally superior choice while iron is being the worst tool of choice.

 

You must have seen atleast 1 thread about how gamebreaking was finding steel tools on day 1, this is exactly about that. The steel tools are drastically overpowered compared to iron and only slightly better than stones.

[Danidas]

Also need to take into account that the stats for Iron and Steal tier tools are random with in over lapping ranges whenever you find or craft them. Which Stone tools always have same stats as they do not vary due to how easy they are made. As a result every Iron or Steal tool is different and since the ranges over lap it's possible to have a Iron tool with better stats then a Steal one.

 

This is done to ensure that your always motivated to hunt down better tools even when all the ones you find are quality 6 as no two tools are created equal.

[DaChibii]

This is not a bad start for a comparison, buuuuuut...

This is placing a value on 'stamina' as the basis of the comparison. Usually the difference between using a Stone Axe or an Iron Pick-Axe is speed. Yes, early game stamina can be a crucial commodity, but around the time you should be getting Iron tier tools the rate you use stamina is often equal to the rate you gain (or close enough). This means the stamina net cost is negligible (really low and comparable to each other). Durability, mod slots, and frankly speed is a greater concern. This is why the T4 tools don't really have a stamina cost but rather a fuel cost, and are incredibly fast.

That all being said, maybe the stamina cost of Iron Tools should be lowered a bit so that it's not worse across the board than primitive ones (running out of stamina does affect speed, and stone tools have a practical unlimited durability).

[Rince]

Well, leaving the mats aside, speaking how the tools feel, I must say that iron tools feels like an improvement over stone. And steel feels like a BIG improvement over everything else.

Sure, we can just use the stone axe and spend a million of years hitting something, but time is important. Morese when the next blood moon is coming closer and closer.

[Danidas]

52 minutes ago, DaChibii said:

This is not a bad start for a comparison, buuuuuut...

This is placing a value on 'stamina' as the basis of the comparison. Usually the difference between using a Stone Axe or an Iron Pick-Axe is speed. Yes, early game stamina can be a crucial commodity, but around the time you should be getting Iron tier tools the rate you use stamina is often equal to the rate you gain (or close enough). This means the stamina net cost is negligible (really low and comparable to each other). Durability, mod slots, and frankly speed is a greater concern. This is why the T4 tools don't really have a stamina cost but rather a fuel cost, and are incredibly fast.

That all being said, maybe the stamina cost of Iron Tools should be lowered a bit so that it's not worse across the board than primitive ones (running out of stamina does affect speed, and stone tools have a practical unlimited durability).

In A20 T4 motorized tools will have a stamina cost so no more bypassing the stamina system with a Auger.

 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

My entire discussion on this thread is about how without any skills and boosts steel tools are the universally superior choice while iron is being the worst tool of choice.

Then your discussion is pointless. Sorry. You may have already recognized, that it is not about stamina but speed from other answers.

And speed is improved much with iron tools.

 

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

You must have seen atleast 1 thread about how gamebreaking was finding steel tools on day 1, this is exactly about that. The steel tools are drastically overpowered compared to iron and only slightly better than stones.

It is not, just according to your calaculation that didn't even include all variables but even missed the most important one.

And you don't find steel tools on day one anymore anyway. Welcome to alpha 19. So what's the point? Discussing about some numbers without any meaning?

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Don't forget the Ergonomic Grip and SexRex.

That and coffee, well, you can swing all day long, and yes, time is a factor.

 

I swap to iron once I get to 2 or 3 of sexrex, steel, I wait until it's 4/4 and I can make Q5 tools.

(bunkerbuster, iron breaker, ergonomic grip) 

 

Now, if you have all the mining books, would be funny to see how the stone axe does, as you still have the same chance

to one shot the block. 

 

 

I think TFP added a correction factor for attack speed because the auger with its high attack speed was one-shotting blocks like crazy. Should be easy to find out with a stone axe and a steel axe in a test game.

 

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Okay heres the thing, if we take all of that into account meaning you are buffed by drinks and food, running the proper perks and have all the books you are still better with stone and steel tools because they all affect everything in the same way.

 

It doesnt matter much in the argument how much perks and buff you amass if they all affect the same item type, the perk what increases the damage of the stone axe is the same what increases the damage of the steel and iron pixaxe.

What is not constant is the price of stamina. While stamina is premium at the start of the game it is almost ignorably cheap in end game. You have more stamina, you use less stamina per swing AND resupplying your stamina pool through food gets incredibly cheap.

On the other hand time has always somewhat the same importance.

 

Quote

 

 

My entire discussion on this thread is about how without any skills and boosts steel tools are the universally superior choice while iron is being the worst tool of choice.

 

You must have seen atleast 1 thread about how gamebreaking was finding steel tools on day 1, this is exactly about that. The steel tools are drastically overpowered compared to iron and only slightly better than stones.

Steel or iron tools are only gamebreaking for strength/miner players, because they can reach mid-game stamina consumption very early making the those better tools viable.

 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

2 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Don't forget the Ergonomic Grip and SexRex.

Ergonomic Grip:

Decreases melee stamina usage by 10% and increases weapon handling of bows by 10%

 

Does it also for tools and the description is wrong?

[Adam the Waster]

melee is any tool. 


I do think that iron could be a bit better, but i think its fine!

[stample]

Axes for wood are not in a terrible place.  I'll say I use an iron axe if I find one that feels better, but when its T6 Stone vs T1 Iron, it doesn't feel better.

 

Shovels have a single issue with iron, at least for me. 

The iron doesn't get you down to 2-shot dirt piles/cement/cobblestone before you find a steel one that will 1-shot or 2-shot. 

At low levels, I'm rarely shoveling enough to run out of stamina.  What I care about is purely speed to shovel up that cobblestone in a POI.  By the time I find a good enough Quality iron shovel with enough mods to make it 2 swings, I already have a steel one that can do the same, or even 1-shot them.  The damage increase from stone to iron is so low, that it isn't worth having to repair iron vs using a small rock.

 

Picks are another matter. I never use iron picks.  They use so much more stamina, and at a high enough rate of speed, that I spend a lot of time out of stamina.  They are faster for a single block, but how often am I removing a single block?  I don't have a steady supply of coffee before I have steel.  Those plots go to corn, potatoes, pretty much anything but coffee plants.  I'm limited to what I find in POIs, which isn't enough.  When I spend almost as much time waiting on stamina as I do swinging, iron isn't enough faster to justify the food drain from using it.  A T5/6 stone axe that I can repair for a single stone, is only slightly slower over time, and which also saves me food, feels much better than that T3/4 iron pick that requires duct tape and iron to repair.  I'll have a steel pick (of any quality, which is better) before I have a T5/6 iron pick every time.

 

Because one thing A19's changes has done, has made me calculate everything in terms of "how much food does this cost me?"  That's both time and stamina usage, but stamina is more expensive than time.  And early game, food is what matters.  By the time I have excess food, I have steel and perks, and it doesn't matter.

[Liesel Weppen]

55 minutes ago, stample said:

Shovels have a single issue with iron, at least for me. 

With shovels you are right. Digging dirt or those zement/cobble blocks from POIs doesn't require 40 hits like a tree with a stone axe.

Quote

Picks are another matter. I never use iron picks.  They use so much more stamina, and at a high enough rate of speed, that I spend a lot of time out of stamina.  They are faster for a single block, but how often am I removing a single block?

Right, that's why i said, use them as soon as you have enough stamina skilled. I do often remove single blocks. Just removing the "cover" for "hidden" loot is 1 to 2-shot with a iron axe instead of 4-5 hits with a stone axe.

 

Quote

I don't have a steady supply of coffee before I have steel.  Those plots go to corn, potatoes, pretty much anything but coffee plants.

It's your decision what you plant in your plots. Place more plots and also plant coffee.

I plant coffee as soon as i got seeds. Primarily i plant potatoes and corn. Less corn because i usually get a lot from farms. Mushrooms don't need a plot.

Last time i had 17 plots on day 3. But not enough seeds to be planted in them.

 

Quote

Because one thing A19's changes has done, has made me calculate everything in terms of "how much food does this cost me?"  That's both time and stamina usage, but stamina is more expensive than time.  And early game, food is what matters.  By the time I have excess food, I have steel and perks, and it doesn't matter.

I don't know what you are doing. Maybe you are that slow because you put stamina over everything?

Usually all food problems for me are solved around the time when i enter iron age (Lvl 12, day 8-10). And i usually also don't go explicit for mining that early, because up to this stage what i find by looting is way enough. All my early skillpints go into "miscellaneous" skills (healing factor, sex rex, cardio, lotl, master chef, lucky looter, adveturer) to solve/improve "basic" problems first. Usually i have spent 10 points and more on various skills before i even increase any base attribute to 2.

 

But think that might happen to people that absolutely refuse to put 1 point in lotl and up to 2 points in master chef (and not finding better cooking receips by accident).

You shouldn't complain about food if you spend your skillpoints onto everything but not into what solves the food problem.

[stample]

3 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

With shovels you are right. Digging dirt or those zement/cobble blocks from POIs doesn't require 40 hits like a tree with a stone axe.

Right, that's why i said, use them as soon as you have enough stamina skilled. I do often remove single blocks. Just removing the "cover" for "hidden" loot is 1 to 2-shot with a iron axe instead of 4-5 hits with a stone axe.

 

It's your decision what you plant in your plots. Place more plots and also plant coffee.

I plant coffee as soon as i got seeds. Primarily i plant potatoes and corn. Less corn because i usually get a lot from farms. Mushrooms don't need a plot.

Last time i had 17 plots on day 3. But not enough seeds to be planted in them.

 

I don't know what you are doing. Maybe you are that slow because you put stamina over everything?

Usually all food problems for me are solved around the time when i enter iron age (Lvl 12, day 8-10). And i usually also don't go explicit for mining that early, because up to this stage what i find by looting is way enough. All my early skillpints go into "miscellaneous" skills (healing factor, sex rex, cardio, lotl, master chef, lucky looter, adveturer) to solve/improve "basic" problems first. Usually i have spent 10 points and more on various skills before i even increase any base attribute to 2.

 

But think that might happen to people that absolutely refuse to put 1 point in lotl and up to 2 points in master chef (and not finding better cooking receips by accident).

You shouldn't complain about food if you spend your skillpoints onto everything but not into what solves the food problem.

Ok, should probably clarify a few things then.  First, LotL1 is the first point I spend every time, and SexRex2 is the next couple points.  I've started putting Tracking 1 in there, too, now that there are so many chickens and bunnies.  I'm not moving slowly at all.  I'm typically playing with 2 other people, and one is a dedicated Int/Builder, so the other two of us are providing food for 1.5 people each and one of those (the Int build) burns food mining nearly full-time.  So the efficiency of meat stew is our priority.   I leave Miner69r lower so that we can make Q1 or Q2 steel tools as soon as we find a handful of the parts, while the Int/Builder maxes his out to make high quality Iron in the meantime and get his materials faster with less effort.

 

However, now that I think about it, part of our food problem most likely stems more from increased zombies.  We started doing 4x wanderers when A19 dropped, so we spend a ton of time/stamina/food swinging clubs and spears at zombies, rather than just skirting them like we used to with normal wanderer levels.  That probably adds up pretty quickly.  And since that was the same time they increased food usage, we assumed it was primarily that, because we had no vanilla play to compare too.

[Junuxx]

I recently did a similar analysis and proposal here.

[Solomon]

20 hours ago, DaChibii said:

This is not a bad start for a comparison, buuuuuut...

This is placing a value on 'stamina' as the basis of the comparison. Usually the difference between using a Stone Axe or an Iron Pick-Axe is speed. Yes, early game stamina can be a crucial commodity, but around the time you should be getting Iron tier tools the rate you use stamina is often equal to the rate you gain (or close enough). This means the stamina net cost is negligible (really low and comparable to each other). Durability, mod slots, and frankly speed is a greater concern. This is why the T4 tools don't really have a stamina cost but rather a fuel cost, and are incredibly fast.

That all being said, maybe the stamina cost of Iron Tools should be lowered a bit so that it's not worse across the board than primitive ones (running out of stamina does affect speed, and stone tools have a practical unlimited durability).

Thats true, the idea of this discussion sparked when roland claimed that steel tools are massively overpowered early game. Originally i wanted to discuss that this is not the case but after making some calculations its true. 

 

The point where i got suprised is the fact that if you on day one or in the first week get your hand on an iron tool due to the stamina requierement they are technically "downgrades" because you feel like it burns up your reserves too quickly while with steel the stamina burn throught is still true but its much closer to stone variants.

[canadianbluebeer]

Put it this way, if you CAN put it into the tool/weapon etc, then  it will do something.

(try putting customized fittings into padded armor. you can't. greyed out)

 

ergogrip works very well with tools.  It's a must have for me.

REALLY useful once you get to steel.

SexRex and coffee works for iron, but need the grip at steel.

 

If I get a Q6 stone shovel, I tend to keep that until Q5 iron and ergo grip.

 

 

I'm at lvl 40 and just starting to put points into LotL.

I max miner/motherload, 3 in cookery, and get to Q5 lvl for machineguns as priorities.

Foods next, then more in heavy armor.

 

Since I do the machineguns I need lotsa bullets. LOTS.

Lots of forged iron for bars and spikes required.

Cement.  Rocks. Never enough early on.

So mining gets maxed. 

 

Oh, always at least 1 point in sneak attacks. If you're crouched and shooting, even if they see you, it seems to count.

 

(just bought up all the steel I could, scrapped my lowbie mgs, and had just enough to make a Q5 M60.

Had to use the toughguy glasses for the last point in health to make it. )

 

We all have differing playstyles.

 

sorry for the long post.

 

[Crater Creator]

On 11/6/2020 at 3:07 AM, Solomon said:

Before anything this post was inspired by @Roland by making me calculate just how good are steel tools are.

Ooh, those sneaky math teachers!  They're always up to something.

 

The OP makes a point which I think everyone has overlooked: why should there be an inflection point?

 

Assuming the numbers are correct, the stamina required to destroy any given number of blocks is not consistent.  If you think this number should go up over time, then why should it decrease going from iron to steel?  If you think this number should go down over time, then why should it increase going from stone to iron?

 

It’s not about how steep the curve is, or whether perks and whatnot can make the curve less important.  It’s about why the curve has a kink in it.  If you believe the game’s progression curve on this really is smooth in practice, then what smooths this out?  Where is the kink in the opposite direction, that gets easier but then harder?  Yes there are other curves, like stamina regeneration or loot level, but what other curve has a kink in it?  So far the only things people have brought up are things that change smoothly from early game to late game, or how things “feel”.

 

The elapsed time doesn't counteract this.  I did a test of my own: the time to destroy a 1000 HP iron block with different tools.  For each I did three trials, one each with a Q1, Q3, and Q5 tool, to average out the range in stats.  Results:

58.3s (stone axe)

24.5s (iron pickaxe)

16.6s (steel pickaxe)

8.49s (auger, for the sake of completeness)

 

I did this test in debug mode to eliminate the effects of stamina.  With the exception of power tools (to be changed in A20, as mentioned), stamina cost increases smoothly from low tier to high tier.  Stamina regeneration and max stamina increase smoothly from low to high as you gain perks and levels, respectively.  Everything progresses smoothly, except for stamina-per-block.

 

[Gazz]

53 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

 Everything progresses smoothly, except for stamina-per-block.

Yup, pretty much.

This only "affects" people who for reasons of their own harvest one block and one block only.

[RipClaw]

59 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

With the exception of power tools (to be changed in A20, as mentioned), stamina cost increases smoothly from low tier to high tier.

I hope the stamina consumption of the power tools will not be too high. What I love about working with the auger is that I only have to pause when I need to refill the tank or a zombie falls into my mine.