A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[BFT2020]

13 hours ago, Renathras said:

The one problem I have with the "game was becoming too much of a shooter" argument is this:

7 Days To Die: Horde Nights.

The Horde Nights are a very shooter affair.  While later on you can have a lot of traps and such, early on you're limited to spikes and second tier guns like the 9mm and AK.  If Horde Nights weren't in the game, this would be a valid argument...but Horde Nights are in the game...  XD

 

meganoth has an excellent reply to you, but I thought I would chime in at least on this part.

 

Horde nights can be shooter affairs only if you choose to make it so.  In one of my  last A19 playthrough (I been spending more time working on a mod and waiting for A20), I went intellect build (so perk points into that tree except for survival skills in the other trees).  I also made the conscious choice to build and design my horde base where I was relying on the traps to do most of the work and I was going to limit myself to bow and arrows to assist in the defense.  I believe I was up to Day 49 (7th horde) and was still using bow and arrows primarily.

 

I did occasionally use my other weapons like the hunting rifle and shotgun when they got too thick (I typically set my settings at max zombies and survivalist), but the majority of the work was being done by my dart traps and electric fences, along with supporting work done by my turrets.  I didn't have to mine coal and phosphate to craft gunpowder, I didn't have to run tons of quests to stock up on ammo; I found the normal amount of ammo I gained from looting was outpacing my use of it.

 

If I had kept playing, I am sure eventually I would have to use more and more ammo as the gamestages got harder and Demos started showing up, but it was a great feeling (and a personal accomplishment for me) to using the bow so late in the horde night stages.  I can't wait to try that again in Alpha 20.

[Aldranon]

There are several ways to gimmick the game so BM nights are little to no problem.

But as its a game, then doing what is pleasing/exciting to you is where the win is.

 

Someone basically said if your having fun in a game, you're winning if not, your whining.   🙂

Make changes if your not having fun.  Experiment.

[Roland]

20 hours ago, Renathras said:

...though I did not know that Strength was supposed to be the "beginner's tree".  That's news to me.  Very interesting...

 

It's not so much that it is supposed to be the beginner's tree but that the trees are supposed to be asynchronous in nature and are not meant to just be equal pathways of progression with different names. As such, they will have different challenges and drawbacks. As the primary tree, the strength tree is by far the most straightforward and easy to survive with-- especially in the early game while the intellect tree is quite a bit more difficult--especially early on.

 

20 hours ago, Renathras said:

The only time we use guns is the "automatic wakeup" rooms, which are, imo, the most obnoxious mechanic in the game.  What's the point of providing players with a stealth tree if you're then going to say "oh, but it doesn't work on this entire thing"?

 

There are several threads on this topic already so I will just say that I understand why you despise it and at the same time you are incorrect that you must use guns on the auto wake up rooms. There is definitely stealth gameplay possible in reaction to those rooms tested and proven. If the only stealth gameplay you enjoy is shooting at sleeping targets then I guess there really is no additional stealth gameplay to be had for you. But that doesn't negate the fact that hiding and re-emerging is a viable stealthy gameplay tactic and fully supported by the perks we have in the game. There is a reason that one of the perks vastly reduces the timer on zombie awareness of you. (Talk about a stealth perk that would get 0% use if all zombies always stayed asleep...)

 

Finally, I disagree that "stealth" is useless if it doesn't work the way you narrowly define the way it should 100% of the time. 90% of the time with a 10% variance is perfectly acceptable. Its doubtful that even 10% of the overall volumes are even auto-wake up since there is a lot of false assumptions since gamer ego prevents players from blaming themselves when a room wakes up. By the code, very few rooms are tagged to auto wake-up. But even if it were 80% nothing ever wakes up to 20% auto wake up that still would mean you are getting a lot of value for those spent perk points. That is still a lot of fun gameplay shooting immobile unconscious targets...

 

But I get it. You don't like it and you probably don't want to take the time necessary for the stealth required after a room wakes up but would rather keep charging through the POI. To each their own.

 

20 hours ago, Renathras said:

I'm with you on some of the newer POIs having more paths through them.  An issue is that quests still require killing all zombies along all paths, though.  I like where it's heading, though.  My problem is, again, that it seems SOME buildings should be "normal".  EVERY building being a prepper fortress, especially some where it's highly unrealistic (like the apartment building) is a bit much.

I'm trying to think, but the only buildings I can think of that AREN'T prepper fortresses are the motels.  Largely because each hotel room is just a single room and bathroom, so there's not a lot of passages and chokepoints/defenses to really make a path through them without knocking out the walls between all the rooms to make a single path.

I just feel something about every structure in the world being a dungeon to be...unrealistic?

 

I have a few disagreements here....if you don't mind

 

1) Quests do not require killing all zombies along all paths unless it is.... a Clear quest. Why would you take a clear quest if you don't intend to do the job of clearing the entire building? The fetch quest doesn't require a single kill. The new restore power quest won't require a single kill. Clear quests will always require killing everything because that is the definition of clearing a building and what you are being paid to do.

 

2) You can explore POI's without following the path. I do it all the time and you don't need to have a quest to go in and explore and scavenge and you don't have to kill everything if you don't want to. You can enter the building at ANY point using a chopping tool. You do not have to enter at the designated starting point. This is a voxel game and the devs have not nor will they landclaim the POI's to prevent you from making your own pathways through. Honestly, you are limiting  yourself by treating POIs as dungeons. I always have seen them as cluttered and barricaded buildings and never limit myself to one path. I break through doors and furniture and walls all the time.

 

3) I, personally, never considered the buildings barricaded by preppers. All the barricades and clutter were built up post apocalypse by other survivors and by bandits. Day One in the game is not day one after the outbreak. Life has been going on for some time since the initial outbreak and bombings. I think if the buildings were set up by preppers before the apocalypse happened they would look very different. Having played from alpha 5 through alpha 15 I can attest that the old open buildings were super boring compared to the current designed POIs.  There are plenty of remnants now that are open and clear and man it is just snooze-ville going into those.

 

I don't know your philosophy. maybe you feel like you must completely clear every building you enter and with so many now requiring an investment of time longer than 5-10 minutes maybe that is the hardship. I think a big part of the problem is that you are thinking "dungeon" whenever you go inside. Stop following paths and feeling like you have kill every zombie and break some piled up furniture and a few doors and maybe you won't see so many dungeons.

[Laz Man]

48 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

It's not so much that it is supposed to be the beginner's tree but that the trees are supposed to be asynchronous in nature and are not meant to just be equal pathways of progression with different names. As such, they will have different challenges and drawbacks. As the primary tree, the strength tree is by far the most straightforward and easy to survive with-- especially in the early game while the intellect tree is quite a bit more difficult--especially early on.

 

 

There are several threads on this topic already so I will just say that I understand why you despise it and at the same time you are incorrect that you must use guns on the auto wake up rooms. There is definitely stealth gameplay possible in reaction to those rooms tested and proven. If the only stealth gameplay you enjoy is shooting at sleeping targets then I guess there really is no additional stealth gameplay to be had for you. But that doesn't negate the fact that hiding and re-emerging is a viable stealthy gameplay tactic and fully supported by the perks we have in the game. There is a reason that one of the perks vastly reduces the timer on zombie awareness of you. (Talk about a stealth perk that would get 0% use if all zombies always stayed asleep...)

 

Finally, I disagree that "stealth" is useless if it doesn't work the way you narrowly define the way it should 100% of the time. 90% of the time with a 10% variance is perfectly acceptable. Its doubtful that even 10% of the overall volumes are even auto-wake up since there is a lot of false assumptions since gamer ego prevents players from blaming themselves when a room wakes up. By the code, very few rooms are tagged to auto wake-up. But even if it were 80% nothing ever wakes up to 20% auto wake up that still would mean you are getting a lot of value for those spent perk points. That is still a lot of fun gameplay shooting immobile unconscious targets...

 

But I get it. You don't like it and you probably don't want to take the time necessary for the stealth required after a room wakes up but would rather keep charging through the POI. To each their own.

 

 

I have a few disagreements here....if you don't mind

 

1) Quests do not require killing all zombies along all paths unless it is.... a Clear quest. Why would you take a clear quest if you don't intend to do the job of clearing the entire building? The fetch quest doesn't require a single kill. The new restore power quest won't require a single kill. Clear quests will always require killing everything because that is the definition of clearing a building and what you are being paid to do.

 

2) You can explore POI's without following the path. I do it all the time and you don't need to have a quest to go in and explore and scavenge and you don't have to kill everything if you don't want to. You can enter the building at ANY point using a chopping tool. You do not have to enter at the designated starting point. This is a voxel game and the devs have not nor will they landclaim the POI's to prevent you from making your own pathways through. Honestly, you are limiting  yourself by treating POIs as dungeons. I always have seen them as cluttered and barricaded buildings and never limit myself to one path. I break through doors and furniture and walls all the time.

 

3) I, personally, never considered the buildings barricaded by preppers. All the barricades and clutter were built up post apocalypse by other survivors and by bandits. Day One in the game is not day one after the outbreak. Life has been going on for some time since the initial outbreak and bombings. I think if the buildings were set up by preppers before the apocalypse happened they would look very different. Having played from alpha 5 through alpha 15 I can attest that the old open buildings were super boring compared to the current designed POIs.  There are plenty of remnants now that are open and clear and man it is just snooze-ville going into those.

 

I don't know your philosophy. maybe you feel like you must completely clear every building you enter and with so many now requiring an investment of time longer than 5-10 minutes maybe that is the hardship. I think a big part of the problem is that you are thinking "dungeon" whenever you go inside. Stop following paths and feeling like you have kill every zombie and break some piled up furniture and a few doors and maybe you won't see so many dungeons.

 

Some great points Roland and thanks.  Another great point is that you don't even have to do quests to enjoy the game.  Lots of people even choose to play with no traders since they prefer a more nomadic unguided experience.

 

I can empathize with those that truly don't like dungeon POIs because of their linear pathing.  However, keep in mind that linear path is what allows level design to deliver a paced experience with ups and downs much like how movies and books tell a story which is a fantastic thing. 

 

What other open world fully destructible voxel game on the market gives you such a mixed bag of levels/experiences (non questable, remnant, etc.) to choose from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kam R.]

9 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Okay, no big there. Do we still have access to the awning blocks? If so that'd work too.

If I understood this right, every shape can be every material now, including "cloth". So technically awning blocks are still available, no idea if players can build with cloth though since it's never mentioned in the upgrade path...

[Jost Amman]

27 minutes ago, Kam R. said:

If I understood this right, every shape can be every material now, including "cloth". So technically awning blocks are still available, no idea if players can build with cloth though since it's never mentioned in the upgrade path...

I don't think that's in A20... we should only be able to build with Wood, Cobblestone, Concrete and Steel.

We're still using the standard, albeit shorter, upgrade path after all, don't we?

[Khalagar]

43 minutes ago, Mr. gnome said:

Is it possible that Bosses - Helicopters will appear in alpha 20 or later? (not a joke)

 

Possible yes. Probable? No

 

They've talked about bosses before, I'm not sure what they ever decided. I think they have said we will see The Duke, but any other bosses would probably just be stat buffed normal zombies / irradiated ones with triple stats and a size increase or something.  It's probably a 7 Days 2 Die thing like legendary / unique weapons and stuff where it would be cool, but requires too much work / balancing for first game. Not sure what you mean by boss helicopter, but they have said it would be neat to work on the Gyrocopter some more, but it's not really a high priority.

 

 

ATM they have said many times their goal on the first game is basically to get everything currently in the game to a good state, add bandits and get them to a good state, make sure everything is polished and feature complete, and then go gold. From there, they will start working on the next game or maybe expansions or DLC etc, but last I heard, they are trying to avoid adding a tremendous amount of new workload like bosses or sharks with lasers on their head, as it just delays them being able to wrap the game up and start work on the sequel.

 

I don't know that they've said no to DLC entirely, but a sequel is a good idea for them since basically everyone who is interested in this type of game already owns it, so it's hard to keep a good revenue stream when your customer base isn't generating any revenue at all and the ever shrinking untapped market just buys it for $7 on a Steam sale

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Possible yes. Probable? No

 

They've talked about bosses before, I'm not sure what they ever decided. I think they have said we will see The Duke, but any other bosses would probably just be stat buffed normal zombies / irradiated ones with triple stats and a size increase or something.  It's probably a 7 Days 2 Die thing like legendary / unique weapons and stuff where it would be cool, but requires too much work / balancing for first game. Not sure what you mean by boss helicopter, but they have said it would be neat to work on the Gyrocopter some more, but it's not really a high priority.

 

 

ATM they have said many times their goal on the first game is basically to get everything currently in the game to a good state, add bandits and get them to a good state, make sure everything is polished and feature complete, and then go gold. From there, they will start working on the next game or maybe expansions or DLC etc, but last I heard, they are trying to avoid adding a tremendous amount of new workload like bosses or sharks with lasers on their head, as it just delays them being able to wrap the game up and start work on the sequel.

 

I don't know that they've said no to DLC entirely, but a sequel is a good idea for them since basically everyone who is interested in this type of game already owns it, so it's hard to keep a good revenue stream when your customer base isn't generating any revenue at all and the ever shrinking untapped market just buys it for $7 on a Steam sale

Well  they say no to dlc but i think dlc in they meaning is: "few guns and one zombie type". But it is more likely to seen big "expansion pack" ( like expansions pack to cod 1 or lotr battle of middleearth 2, fear or bioshock) that sequel.   Honestly add legendary items isn't so big deal but they need they own models and that is big problem.  So probably we will get first another type of game then spinoff ( 7dtd in medival for example ) and after that sequel

[meganoth]

12 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well  they say no to dlc but i think dlc in they meaning is: "few guns and one zombie type". But it is more likely to seen big "expansion pack" ( like expansions pack to cod 1 or lotr battle of middleearth 2, fear or bioshock) that sequel.   Honestly add legendary items isn't so big deal but they need they own models and that is big problem.  So probably we will get first another type of game then spinoff ( 7dtd in medival for example ) and after that sequel

 

If you go the expansion route you can easily just call it 7D2D 2 and have a much cleaner separation of the two versions for modders

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

If you go the expansion route you can easily just call it 7D2D 2 and have a much cleaner separation of the two versions for modders

Nope. forces of corruption expansion pack to Star Wars empire at war was rly big but use a lot of this same units, systems maps etc

If TFP decided to add expansion it will add :new biom, maybe new faction ( army for example) , 15 more weapons, 20 more zombie type, unique POIs, quests etc. 

Not enough to be sequel but more that dlc.

What would be needed in sequel? - more zombies in this same place, a big change like big city similiar to city with gigantic skyscraper, advance gore system, a lot of more items. Well except the forest  (sons of the forest sequel) and stay of decay any sandbox game get sequel. Conan get tons of dlc , ark too. So expansion pack are more likly. And honestly- modders are maybe 0,1% players- more people know 7dtd because "endless alpha ". So sequel would be PR critical mistake if they decided it in short time after release of 1. so spinoff with diffrent setting will be just safer option

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Nope. forces of corruption expansion pack to Star Wars empire at war was rly big but use a lot of this same units, systems maps etc

If TFP decided to add expansion it will add :new biom, maybe new faction ( army for example) , 15 more weapons, 20 more zombie type, unique POIs, quests etc. 

Not enough to be sequel but more that dlc.

What would be needed in sequel? - more zombies in this same place, a big change like big city similiar to city with gigantic skyscraper, advance gore system, a lot of more items. Well except the forest  (sons of the forest sequel) and stay of decay any sandbox game get sequel. Conan get tons of dlc , ark too. So expansion pack are more likly. And honestly- modders are maybe 0,1% players- more people know 7dtd because "endless alpha ". So sequel would be PR critical mistake if they decided it in short time after release of 1. so spinoff with diffrent setting will be just safer option

 

You simply posted your wish list again (which everyone in the forum knows by heart now 😁). 7D2D is not a zombie shooter clone and I would guess that features in the next installement will be from the long list of ideas they could not implement this time.

 

Modders are by far the most important 0,1% of players. Because they provide the variety that will make this game stay relevant for years. Just look at bethesda games or minecraft how much impact modability has.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Fanatical_Meat]

21 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Small offtopic but - how valve manage to create soo good gore with so many zombies on screen? there isn't any game with  having even close gore system to l4d2.  Most game have "gore" only as static prop  like corpses on spikes

 

The “world” in L4D2 is a lot smaller. Physically and in computing power.

you cannot destroy anything that isn’t meant to be destroyed

nothing grows or changes

you cannot did or collapse a building

 

As a result of the above the game has far fewer things to keep track of and that extra power can be used to control more zombies.

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You simply posted your wish list again (which everyone in the forum knows by heart now 😁). 7D2D is not a zombie shooter clone and I would guess that features in the next installement will be from the long list of ideas they could not implement this time.

 

Modders are by far the most important 0,1% of players. Because they provide the variety that will make this game stay relevant for years. Just look at bethesda games or minecraft how much impact modability has.

 

Honestly for long time 7dtd was "minecraft with modern setting" but now it is more similar to ark . And honestly - 7dtd is not tes or fallout - it doesn't have lore. This is very important for bethesda game - people add enemies "from lore", items etc. 

But most of mods to skyrim are :

1. lore friendly and immersive stuff + improvments.

2. @SnowDog1942 favourite stuff

3. Hahha mods ( like shrek dragon)

TFP decided to cut UMA - this mean a lot of people will stop making characters models. And i don't expect people will create models even close to hd vanilia models. 

I know a lot of games with mods and what? honestly i love Total war ,sw  battlefront 2 classic mods but this games are old- so you have still tools to make models etc.

Okay do you know modder who would make models similar to new HD models of zombies ?  Idk.

But 7dtd is not minecraft or skyrim - there is no chance of getting 100+ big pack with good looking enemies guns. 

Modders can't  add everything. So honestly that's true this is not zombie shooter clone - but minecraft clone neither. So only "rly good stuff" you can expect from TFP because they have enough money and tools.

I would agree with you if any modder could "reskin" this - Emmanuel Lecouturier - A Plague Tale : Innocence - Melie (artstation.com) into zombie version of this character and add to 7dtd and i would stop complain about argument  "modders can do X". Until this time 7dtd is like coh2 - it have mods potential but doesn't have enough tool to be game keep alive by modders. 

 

2 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

 

The “world” in L4D2 is a lot smaller. Physically and in computing power.

you cannot destroy anything that isn’t meant to be destroyed

nothing grows or changes

you cannot did or collapse a building

 

As a result of the above the game has far fewer things to keep track of and that extra power can be used to control more zombies.

Yeah but cod for example have even less destroyable maps on zombie and gore system is bad, this same in back 4 blood or in kiling floor 2

Edited October 3, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Honestly for long time 7dtd was "minecraft with modern setting" but now it is more similar to ark . And honestly - 7dtd is not tes or fallout - it doesn't have lore. This is very important for bethesda game - people add enemies "from lore", items etc. 

 

I didn't say 7D2D is tes, I said tes is successful with mods. And because of this 7D2D doesn't need to care about lore, even if lore were important for TES. Which it isn't. There have been story-rich overhauls of that game which massively change the lore, with success.

 

Look at the mods available for 7D2D. They are probably very different from typical TES mods. Nearly all of them are about changing game rules, adding recipes, changing them, adding perks, changing perks to skills, adding items and blocks. And sometimes even zombies.

Does any of the new zombies in Darkness Falls conform to some lore that 7D2D doesn't have, as you yourself said? No. Does it hurt that mod? I don't see it

Do the rule changes, for example the weight system for items, in Undead Legacy conform to some lore or need lore to be successfull? Doesn't seem the case.

 

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

But most of mods to skyrim are :

1. lore friendly and immersive stuff + improvments.

2. @SnowDog1942 favourite stuff

3. Hahha mods ( like shrek dragon)

TFP decided to cut UMA - this mean a lot of people will stop making characters models. And i don't expect people will create models even close to hd vanilia models. 

I know a lot of games with mods and what? honestly i love Total war ,sw  battlefront 2 classic mods but this games are old- so you have still tools to make models etc.

Okay do you know modder who would make models similar to new HD models of zombies ?  Idk.

 

Lets assume modders can't make new zombies for 7D2D. I would not care much. You would, but you want different things from this game than I do. Your logic assumes that everyone else has exactly the same desires like you for this game. I'm sure I can easily find dozens of players in this forum who would want to play mods for this game even if not a single additional zombie model were in them.

 

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

But 7dtd is not minecraft or skyrim - there is no chance of getting 100+ big pack with good looking enemies guns. 

Modders can't  add everything. So honestly that's true this is not zombie shooter clone - but minecraft clone neither. So only "rly good stuff" you can expect from TFP because they have enough money and tools.

I would agree with you if any modder could "reskin" this - Emmanuel Lecouturier - A Plague Tale : Innocence - Melie (artstation.com) into zombie version of this character and add to 7dtd and i would stop complain about argument  "modders can do X". Until this time 7dtd is like coh2 - it have mods potential but doesn't have enough tool to be game keep alive by modders.

 

It looks to me like only new zombies and guns would be "rly good stuff" to you. I have seen really good stuff in the mods I mentioned above and it was neither zombie models nor guns.

 

 

[ShellHead]

I think you’re misunderstanding @Matt115’s point, it looks like to me that he’s saying that lore and model replacements/retextures create good entry points for modders who want to add something to the game which were major things TES had in its favor, i don’t think he’s saying the only mods worth making just so happen to match his personal preferences.

Darkness Falls and Undead Legacy are fantastic mods and they add a great deal, including their own lore, but they were/are difficult to create and maintain, too difficult for all but the most dedicated to do. TES and Minecraft have thriving modding communities not just because the scope and scale of how they can be modded but because there are many good entry points to get into that modding scene. Most mods for both of those games are far closer to new zombie models than Darkness Falls in their scale.

We can argue about whether or not 7D2D has enough of its own good entry points to sustain the community in the long term (XML mods are incredibly easy to do which is definitely a good entry point in my book) but let’s get clear on the argument first.

Models matter to some folks, mechanical changes matter to others, still others like adding new stories. A healthy modding community has all of these and more, regardless of the opinions of the rest of the community, because the more people feel free to make the game their own, the more robust and higher quality the community becomes.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, ShellHead said:

I think you’re misunderstanding @Matt115’s point, it looks like to me that he’s saying that lore and model replacements/retextures create good entry points for modders who want to add something to the game which were major things TES had in its favor, i don’t think he’s saying the only mods worth making just so happen to match his personal preferences.

Darkness Falls and Undead Legacy are fantastic mods and they add a great deal, including their own lore, but they were/are difficult to create and maintain, too difficult for all but the most dedicated to do. TES and Minecraft have thriving modding communities not just because the scope and scale of how they can be modded but because there are many good entry points to get into that modding scene. Most mods for both of those games are far closer to new zombie models than Darkness Falls in their scale.

We can argue about whether or not 7D2D has enough of its own good entry points to sustain the community in the long term (XML mods are incredibly easy to do which is definitely a good entry point in my book) but let’s get clear on the argument first.

Models matter to some folks, mechanical changes matter to others, still others like adding new stories. A healthy modding community has all of these and more, regardless of the opinions of the rest of the community, because the more people feel free to make the game their own, the more robust and higher quality the community becomes.

 

Very true, but what makes XML less of an entry point than character models? Rereading his post I don't see he is including XML modding into "rly good stuff". His last paragraph can be read your way, but before that he tells us that lore and character models are the important sauce that makes mods successful. He explains what mods are successfull with TES and also assumes that only these can make a modding szene thrive. He might be right (if he really is speaking for the mass of 7D2D players) but I doubt this very much.

 

Naturally as english is neither his nor my main language it is easy for misunderstandings to develop.

 

EDIT: As looting is a big part of 7D2D I expect new items and new POIs to be one of the most important and most popular areas for modders to change the game. I can't judge how easy it is in 7D2D to add those compared to bethesda games but it seems adding POIs is pretty well developed and adding items is not rocket science either. There probably are areas where more support might be necessary for really being entry level. But the game is still in alpha and when they add steamworks support after release there is another opportunity to improve such areas.

 

I don't see that the modding szene in this game would fail even if character models could not be added in the future, too many other areas are well within modders reach. In other words, one pillar missing is not enough for failure and I get the impression that that is Matt115s central prediction

 

And mods like Darkness Falls being difficult to maintain seems to me mainly to be a result of the alpha status which moves the foundation the modders operate on on a yearly basis. Which naturally doesn't happen very often in the universe of TES games where you only have access to released games

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

And mods like Darkness Falls being difficult to maintain seems to me mainly to be a result of the alpha status which moves the foundation the modders operate on on a yearly basis. Which naturally doesn't happen very often in the universe of TES games where you only have access to released games

 

This point exactly.

 

When comparing 7D2D to TES and Fallout, everyone is missing a critical difference between them.  Those games are fully launched games whose mods came after the launch; though in the case of Fallout 4, mod support occurred even after the release with Bethesda making changes each time they updated their mod store forcing some mods (Like FSE) to have to be updated.

 

7D2D is in an Alpha state being pre-Released.  That means things change as the game changed over time, and how mods interface with the various code in the background has changed.  Once 7D2D is in its final release form, maintaining mods will become much simpler.

 

As for lore, with the work being done on bandits, lore for the game will be developed further for the final release.  We should know more about what caused the world we are surviving in to occur, and who exactly is this mysterious Duke we heard about.

 

Some of the beliefs that Matt has (and some others) is they are looking at where the game is today which is only a snapshot of where the game is today in its current state.  The final version will have these elements in it when they are ready for it to be released.  Getting the mechanics down right is what the team is working on today, the fluff will come later.

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, ShellHead said:

I think you’re misunderstanding @Matt115’s point, it looks like to me that he’s saying that lore and model replacements/retextures create good entry points for modders who want to add something to the game which were major things TES had in its favor, i don’t think he’s saying the only mods worth making just so happen to match his personal preferences.

Darkness Falls and Undead Legacy are fantastic mods and they add a great deal, including their own lore, but they were/are difficult to create and maintain, too difficult for all but the most dedicated to do. TES and Minecraft have thriving modding communities not just because the scope and scale of how they can be modded but because there are many good entry points to get into that modding scene. Most mods for both of those games are far closer to new zombie models than Darkness Falls in their scale.

We can argue about whether or not 7D2D has enough of its own good entry points to sustain the community in the long term (XML mods are incredibly easy to do which is definitely a good entry point in my book) but let’s get clear on the argument first.

Models matter to some folks, mechanical changes matter to others, still others like adding new stories. A healthy modding community has all of these and more, regardless of the opinions of the rest of the community, because the more people feel free to make the game their own, the more robust and higher quality the community becomes.

By lore friendly i was mean " this character/quest/item/mechanic suit to rest to the game with setting. Like - cut their hands mode ! or West company imperial armor.

 

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Very true, but what makes XML less of an entry point than character models? Rereading his post I don't see he is including XML modding into "rly good stuff". His last paragraph can be read your way, but before that he tells us that lore and character models are the important sauce that makes mods successful. He explains what mods are successfull with TES and also assumes that only these can make a modding szene thrive. He might be right (if he really is speaking for the mass of 7D2D players) but I doubt this very much.

 

Naturally as english is neither his nor my main language it is easy for misunderstandings to develop.

 

EDIT: As looting is a big part of 7D2D I expect new items and new POIs to be one of the most important and most popular areas for modders to change the game. I can't judge how easy it is in 7D2D to add those compared to bethesda games but it seems adding POIs is pretty well developed and adding items is not rocket science either. There probably are areas where more support might be necessary for really being entry level. But the game is still in alpha and when they add steamworks support after release there is another opportunity to improve such areas.

 

I don't see that the modding szene in this game would fail even if character models could not be added in the future, too many other areas are well within modders reach. In other words, one pillar missing is not enough for failure and I get the impression that that is Matt115s central prediction

 

And mods like Darkness Falls being difficult to maintain seems to me mainly to be a result of the alpha status which moves the foundation the modders operate on on a yearly basis. Which naturally doesn't happen very often in the universe of TES games where you only have access to released games

 

What XML make less entry point that character models... okay :

For example you some can create mod changing stats - it will be probably without new models? Yes "just change value" not adding new models. Well ofc people import models from diffrent games but quality of this models are random- well alma in f.e.a.r  looks good but it is too "old" for 7dtd ( but well one of the best looking models btw). Well guns from cs 1.6 looks good in this game but it would not so good in 7dtd. So "orginal" models are important for future in my opinion.  Well about POI- we have tons of orginal POI so until wood rework i think we just can't have better POI that vanilia . Well i don't think some could recreate airport from L4D1 with crashed plane. 

So maybe "system and mechanic" mods are creating rly good but without "models tool" it is not enough- i think a lot of people thing is important not only which gun you use but what is your target too  .

Well some mods can add good mechanic but without new enemies , good looking guns etc will be like this same cars but with diffrent colours and size - but some people need trucks 😅

Honestly "new system" mods are important- in skyrim you can find cold or immersive sleepbags mods.  This same type of mods like darkness falls. But "more enemy " mods are important too xd. 

And for my even most comlicated system with sleeping, eating, making sh** etc will be not complet without new zombie or diffrent enemy types. I know there is few more enemy types mods but : they are UMA or added from diffrent game- well this is nothing bad- alma can suit but zombie from cod not

 

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

This point exactly.

 

When comparing 7D2D to TES and Fallout, everyone is missing a critical difference between them.  Those games are fully launched games whose mods came after the launch; though in the case of Fallout 4, mod support occurred even after the release with Bethesda making changes each time they updated their mod store forcing some mods (Like FSE) to have to be updated.

 

7D2D is in an Alpha state being pre-Released.  That means things change as the game changed over time, and how mods interface with the various code in the background has changed.  Once 7D2D is in its final release form, maintaining mods will become much simpler.

 

As for lore, with the work being done on bandits, lore for the game will be developed further for the final release.  We should know more about what caused the world we are surviving in to occur, and who exactly is this mysterious Duke we heard about.

 

Some of the beliefs that Matt has (and some others) is they are looking at where the game is today which is only a snapshot of where the game is today in its current state.  The final version will have these elements in it when they are ready for it to be released.  Getting the mechanics down right is what the team is working on today, the fluff will come later.

Lore in this meaning mean "setting" but in nexus you have lore friendly category- i will give you example : long bosmer sword mod would suit to Skyrim, barefoot ragged orphan too,  to fallout will suit sherman tank or zombies but into skyrim can't suit m16 and into fallout green big ass elf sorcerer right?

 

 

Btw i hope we will get tools to create good quality models of zombie bandits etc in the future but until that i can't say mods will help a lot 😕 ofc some people prefere roleplay or pvp but this is not my type. for me enemies and tool to keep you alive are more important

Edited October 4, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Very true, but what makes XML less of an entry point than character models?

I wouldn’t say that it is less of one but rather one that appeals to those who want to tinker with mechanics under the hood as opposed to largely visual changes that don’t change underlying mechanics. It’s more about easy access to a variety of modding “spheres” for lack of a better word.

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Rereading his post I don't see he is including XML modding into "rly good stuff". His last paragraph can be read your way, but before that he tells us that lore and character models are the important sauce that makes mods successful. He explains what mods are successfull with TES and also assumes that only these can make a modding szene thrive. He might be right (if he really is speaking for the mass of 7D2D players) but I doubt this very much.

I’d have to ask @Matt115 but i interpreted that as talking more about what he felt 7D2D should add to help the modding community grow rather than talking about what has already made the community as strong as it is. That was just my reading of it though, his more doom ‘n’ gloom language struck me as more rhetorical hyperbole to emphasize the point.

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

And mods like Darkness Falls being difficult to maintain seems to me mainly to be a result of the alpha status which moves the foundation the modders operate on on a yearly basis. Which naturally doesn't happen very often in the universe of TES games where you only have access to released games

 

This point exactly.

 

When comparing 7D2D to TES and Fallout, everyone is missing a critical difference between them.  Those games are fully launched games whose mods came after the launch; though in the case of Fallout 4, mod support occurred even after the release with Bethesda making changes each time they updated their mod store forcing some mods (Like FSE) to have to be updated.

 

7D2D is in an Alpha state being pre-Released.  That means things change as the game changed over time, and how mods interface with the various code in the background has changed.  Once 7D2D is in its final release form, maintaining mods will become much simpler.

 

As for lore, with the work being done on bandits, lore for the game will be developed further for the final release.  We should know more about what caused the world we are surviving in to occur, and who exactly is this mysterious Duke we heard about.

 

Some of the beliefs that Matt has (and some others) is they are looking at where the game is today which is only a snapshot of where the game is today in its current state.  The final version will have these elements in it when they are ready for it to be released.  Getting the mechanics down right is what the team is working on today, the fluff will come later.

While it is definitely true that 7D2D’s alpha state makes maintenance more difficult and also does not actually show the game in its entirety, my point was about the sheer scale of the changes made in the mod being daunting for people who are just dipping their toes into modding. Mods like UL and DF are some of the highest end mods it’s possible to make, massive in impact and scope, newbie modders (which are critical for long-term community health) aren’t going to try to make their own versions. The issue is “what mods could they make on the path towards making the next Darkness Falls?” Which brings us back to entry points, but there is an additional factor: Visibility. XML changes have robust mechanical alterations but the game has little visible change, not everyone wants visible change more than mechanical change but as it currently stands, modders who want major visible changes have fewer easy options than modders who don’t care as much about visibility. I wouldn’t say that 7D2D is doomed by any stretch of the imagination but questions should always be asked “can we make this even better?”

The game shouldn’t be judged as a final product yet but this is also the time to bring up points of concern, it’s up to TFP to determine what is of concern to them.

[JCrook1028]

33 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

For example you some can create mod changing stats - it will be probably without new models? Yes "just change value" not adding new models. Well ofc people import models from diffrent games but quality of this models are random

Well ofc. But new models CAN be added. If the modder is either good at 3d modeling then they can add high quality HD models. If they are not they can buy stock assets, of varying degrees of quality. So everything you say about models goes right out the window. New models at high quality can be added. Fact. New story can be added like in Darkness Falls. Fact. Entire new mechanic systems like weight and learn by doing in Undead Legacy can be added. Fact. New locations and maps can be added. Fact. What cannot be added?

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, ShellHead said:

 

I’d have to ask @Matt115 but i interpreted that as talking more about what he felt 7D2D should add to help the modding community grow rather than talking about what has already made the community as strong as it is. That was just my reading of it though, his more doom ‘n’ gloom language struck me as more rhetorical hyperbole to emphasize the point.

.

Well - more i mean " community do a lof but it is a lot to do still so if you to keep this on surface after 7dtd get gold you guys need more "big thing""

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Well ofc. But new models CAN be added. If the modder is either good at 3d modeling then they can add high quality HD models. If they are not they can buy stock assets, of varying degrees of quality. So everything you say about models goes right out the window. New models at high quality can be added. Fact. New story can be added like in Darkness Falls. Fact. Entire new mechanic systems like weight and learn by doing in Undead Legacy can be added. Fact. New locations and maps can be added. Fact. What cannot be added?

If can be added why we don't have something like "immersive creatures" from skyrim or "extended common infected to l4d2? Most of pack are uma pack or " put everything  we have no matter  how it is looke" - sometimes if you want to add something you need to make something

I will give you example-  TFP doesn't want to add zombie teens --> so only way to get it are mods--> okay you can take Alma from f.e.a.r. - but  not from nmrih because models connected with source engine will looks strange ,  modern games have good "protection" so you can't trasfer files so easly so days gone well is gone XD --> so someone need to make model which can suit to 7dtd. 

Ofc you can put to 7dtd nazi zombie from WaW but... do you think it will suit there? me neither

So Do you now get my point?

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, ShellHead said:

While it is definitely true that 7D2D’s alpha state makes maintenance more difficult and also does not actually show the game in its entirety, my point was about the sheer scale of the changes made in the mod being daunting for people who are just dipping their toes into modding. Mods like UL and DF are some of the highest end mods it’s possible to make, massive in impact and scope, newbie modders (which are critical for long-term community health) aren’t going to try to make their own versions.

I think this is true for any mods out there today for any game.  Two games I still play that are heavily modded are Skyrim and Fallout 4.  Some mods are simple that I installed, while others do a complete overhaul.  For example, Sim Settlements and Sim Settlements 2 are mods that affect the game in a major way.  Neither of those mods (though both are from the same creation team) are ones a newbie should undertake.  And these mods have limitations caused by the game engine itself (if you don't understand what I mean, install SS2 and then build a massive community at Sanctuary, Red Rocket, and Abernathy farm - then get back to me when you are dealing with constant CTDs).

 

XML edits are more for the newbie modders as long as that person is willing to learn the code (not hard) and ask questions to the modding community.  Overhauls are more for those with the skillsets to introduce new assets and make changes under the hood.  7D2D is the first game that I have ever started to do my own mod (xml style edits) and I been gaming for some time now.  The ease to do this types of changes after learning how to XPath shows how easy it is to jump into modding this game.  I never tried to do this with the other games I enjoy in modded states.

[BFT2020]

45 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

I will give you example-  TFP doesn't want to add zombie teens --> so only way to get it are mods--> okay you can take Alma from f.e.a.r. - but  not from nmrih because models connected with source engine will looks strange ,  modern games have good "protection" so you can't trasfer files so easly so days gone well is gone XD --> so someone need to make model which can suit to 7dtd. 

Which is exactly what everyone has been saying.  Anything added after game is final release (unless TFP does DLC for this game) will have to come from the modding community and they will have to do the work for it.

 

KhaineGB is a good example of a modder in this community.  He has two major mods right now, Darkness Falls and Romero mod (along with some smaller modlets).  Unless we break the poor guy 🙂 he will release final versions of those mods after the game reaches its final release.  He might even do more mods down the road, or he might decide he has done enough mods and now just wants to play the games.

 

If zombie teens is something you want, you will have to wait until someone else does the work (design the models, build the mod, and publish it) or you will have to learn to do it yourself if it something you really want.  TFP have discussed about shoring up the modding portion of the game, and have done a lot of work already communicating out about the various things involved in modding the game.  Just open up some of the xml files and you will see notes from Gazz in them explaining things.

[ShellHead]

18 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I think this is true for any mods out there today for any game.  Two games I still play that are heavily modded are Skyrim and Fallout 4.  Some mods are simple that I installed, while others do a complete overhaul.  For example, Sim Settlements and Sim Settlements 2 are mods that affect the game in a major way.  Neither of those mods (though both are from the same creation team) are ones a newbie should undertake.  And these mods have limitations caused by the game engine itself (if you don't understand what I mean, install SS2 and then build a massive community at Sanctuary, Red Rocket, and Abernathy farm - then get back to me when you are dealing with constant CTDs).

 

XML edits are more for the newbie modders as long as that person is willing to learn the code (not hard) and ask questions to the modding community.  Overhauls are more for those with the skillsets to introduce new assets and make changes under the hood.  7D2D is the first game that I have ever started to do my own mod (xml style edits) and I been gaming for some time now.  The ease to do this types of changes after learning how to XPath shows how easy it is to jump into modding this game.  I never tried to do this with the other games I enjoy in modded states.

I agree with all of this, and i’m not saying that 7D2D is hard to mod in general or anything like that. What i’m talking about is making sure that modding in All of its forms is made as easy as possible, a huge number of the mods for FO and TES are retextures and new models in addition to mechanical changes and new systems.

Edited October 4, 2021 by ShellHead
Clarification (see edit history)

[Matt115]

42 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Which is exactly what everyone has been saying.  Anything added after game is final release (unless TFP does DLC for this game) will have to come from the modding community and they will have to do the work for it.

 

KhaineGB is a good example of a modder in this community.  He has two major mods right now, Darkness Falls and Romero mod (along with some smaller modlets).  Unless we break the poor guy 🙂 he will release final versions of those mods after the game reaches its final release.  He might even do more mods down the road, or he might decide he has done enough mods and now just wants to play the games.

 

If zombie teens is something you want, you will have to wait until someone else does the work (design the models, build the mod, and publish it) or you will have to learn to do it yourself if it something you really want.  TFP have discussed about shoring up the modding portion of the game, and have done a lot of work already communicating out about the various things involved in modding the game.  Just open up some of the xml files and you will see notes from Gazz in them explaining things.

I gave example what can be add in theory but is hard to do practicaly.  

His mods more change things that add thing :

Romeo mod :

Zombies only take full damage from headshots. - change stats 
- Bloodmoons disabled. Change system
- Included Jax's Wilderness Spawn increase modlet (5x more zombies) - change system 
- Added a difficulty tweaks mod to remove damage reduction from higher difficulties.- change system
- Removed zombie rage mode. - change system
- Added 10 slot toolbelt. change stats
- Added backpack stash buttons. - change stats system
- Added craftable log spikes. - bring something what was cutted 
- Added ability to pick up plants with E. - change system
- Removed cop ability to puke. - change skill zombie let's say balance change
- Removed radiated vulture ability to puke. ^
- Wandering hordes start from Day 2 at midnight. change system
- Wandering horde configured to 30 zombies every 6 hours. change system
- Wandering horde frequency and zombie amount can now be configured by XML (1-RomeroModCore\Config\blocks.xml at the top) change system
- Added guppys PUSHABLE shopping cart (works like a bicycle for stam usage). idk how this looks
- Added scrap iron arrows and arrow heads.  bring back thing
- Added scrap club, scrap knuckles, scrap machete and scrap spear. if they have diffrent models that vanilia
- Added Pipe Pistol and Pipe Rifle. new models okay
- Edited loot to remove stone arrows, leather knuckles, stone spear and wooden clubs from loot (replaced with scrap). Balance
- Edited loot to remove stone tools and replaced with scrap tools. balance
- Moved iron tools, baseball bat, iron knuckles, iron spear and hunting knife from Level 1 of appropriate perk to Level 3 (localization updated to reflect this). balance
- Scrap tools/weapons now locked behind schematics or level 1 of appropriate perk. (scrap arrows are NOT locked). balance

 

 

Darkness fall :

 

• 8 Classes to choose from, with 6 quests each! - change of system 
• 96 slot backpack! 12 slot crafting queue!- change of system
• Custom UI! Food/Water bars next to the hotbar. - change of hud but this is diffent 
• Increased zombie spawn/respawn rate! - change of system
• Night time is now dangerous. The ferals come out to play... - change of balance/ system
• Zombie Behemoth (male and female) added! - new models + 
• Scrap Iron Tools added. Iron requires level 15. change of balance
• Titanium added! Can be found as trophies, underground and above ground. Used to make tools, weapons and blocks. - new  ore and items probably new models so good
• Forge Ahead & Leather Tanning books are back! (can also be purchased as perks) - bring back something
• Wrench is now a perk and a schematic, but crafted and repaired with Iron. - balance
• All common books added as perks, so you have the choice of finding the book or spending points. - balance
• Action skills are back! - balance
• Skill books added for all 100 level skills. - balance
• Generic skill point book added so you have ways to get skill points. - balance or system
• Skill notes! Find a recipe you already have? Scrap it into a skill note and craft that into something more useful. - balance or live improvment
• Extra crops! Grow apple, orange banana and coconut trees, plus wheat, carrots and tomatos! - probably new models or icons so good ^^
• More food! Way too much to list, but bread is now an option. So are sunday roast dinners. YUM! - new models or icons
• Animal Coops and Snares from Valmod added. - idk well this is from diffrent mod so itd?
• Clay bowls are back, and used for more than just pretty plants! - bring back
• Craftable Small Engines and Lead Batteries! - balance
• Several new guns! Like the P225 Pistol, AR-15 Automatic Rifle, Winchester Rifle and Combat Shotgun. - new models so okay
• Gun crafting! Gun parts are back and require the rare, find-only Lathe to be crafted. - change of system
• Arrows can now use cloth fragments instead of feathers. Sticks and Sharp Stones have also made a return! - balance
• Tree sap is now a thing! Try left-clicking on non-dead trees with jars or bowls... - system
• Sterile Bandage! New healing item to fill the void between normal Bandages and First Aid Bandages. - it's depends - new  model or not?
• Working sinks and ovens! Both types craftable, so pick whichever matches your kitchen. - balance
• 5 new workstations. The Advanced Forge (required to smelt steel, but no fuel needed!), the Mortar and Pestle and two workbenches! There is also the rare, loot-only, Lathe! - new models
• Stone hammer added. Counts as a construction tool. Used only for repairing and upgrading. - new model okay
• Lockpicks added! Now you can lockpick all safes and most doors. - we have this in vanilia so itd
• Steel crossbow added that takes steel, exploding and titanium bolts. Both crossbows can be scoped. - new models probably 
• Combat axe added. There's also a titanium version. - new models
• Trader's are no longer protected! Take care of your local business! - change of balance
• Guards added to the trader, with a Guard Captain NPC! Talk to them to buy quest starters, which can earn you skill notes! (Single player only due to server bugs) - if this add new models okay
• Larger player-crafted storage (kitchen cabinets, lockable!). idk if this add new models or not
• Time REMOVED from under the compass and on the map. Added to the trader window (under restock time).
• Junction box added for invisible wires. Unlocked via electricity perk.
• Bomber zombies added! These @%$*#!s are designed to tear your base to bits. You have been warned! -vanilia
• 7 Day hordes re-done (less game stages so difficulty should ramp up faster and ferals appear sooner).
• Writing Desk, Ink and Quill available! Used together, these halve the cost of creating skill books and class papers.
• Grass spawns reduced for better performance/easier to see things.
• Traders now have more basic materials for building. - balance
• Localization HEAVILY edited to show where items are crafted, including if they can be made in multiple workstations (one will have a reduced resource cost) and what tools may be needed. - balance
• Compo pack added! - ?
• Hornet from A15 and earlier is back, with it's original sounds and model! Keep an eye out for them in forest biomes. - return
• Trader Caitlin has arrived! She has her own POI, her own voice, lives in the wasteland and carries the most powerful items. - idk this depend on model

 

So most of things from this mods are " change of stats " or balance but only few new models are added. Ofc few things are back but it was created by TFP so i don't count them- this things are TFP work. 

So i don't say this mods are good or not. This is not my point- my point is: there is small  number of mods adding "new things" -   

Subquake's Undead Legacy                    well some thing's looks like "this could be in basic game for sure" some of them looks like random models well like asset flips

       Vehicle Madness      done of the best looking mods- i thing 90% cars could be in 7dtd for sure but some of them looks too much as toys not rly cars  but still one of the best mods

 

I don't want to be rude but for example : @Snufkin add a lot of custom models and that's is good but it's looks like - we put everything everywhere like in asian f2p fps.

Ofc he put a lot of work in this but my point is : we don't have lore ofc so setting will be better word and we have a rly only few vanilia setting friendly mods

Edited October 4, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)