A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[jorbascrumps]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

well for example = modern axes looks diffrent that created in '90  so it couldbe next tier for axe , auger can have few versions , saw too,  wrench can have automatic version - welder etc well new enemies, quests mean = need more time and money that make just few items. this is brutal but it is work. that's why we unfortunatly don't have at least 70 variants of zombie ( i'm disapointed about this)

You're missing the point, my friend  It's not a question of how but instead why?

Edited July 27, 2021 by jorbascrumps (see edit history)

[samljer]

On 7/25/2021 at 2:07 PM, Khalagar said:

 

What is even the point of a "long term" save anyway, do people really stick with one save long enough for experimental updates to matter? I usually just play one save until I hit end game and have an established base etc, then get tired of raiding the same Shotgun Messiah and Shamway and take a month or two break then come back and start again. The funnest parts to me are honestly when you are leveling up and still have a reason to actually explore and find new items and upgrades and things are still a danger etc

 

What would you even do if you just kept playing one save long after having a horde proof base and having full build and items lol

 

 

Ive been to max once "level 300 - gs 900+ forgot, but not quite 1000"

And let me tell you, its nuts, if you havent done it just once, you owe it to yourself to get there.

[Reset]

On 7/26/2021 at 12:27 AM, Jost Amman said:

I just now realized that in A20 we'll have "only" the new pipe weapons... but what about "pipe tools"?

Are there any plans to add (e.g.) pipe shovel, pipe pickaxe and pipe axe, as a new "step-age" between stone and iron?

It's just that it sounds like the logical next step to the addition of the new pipe weapons...

 

 

They are primitive guns and we already have primitive tools

Edited July 27, 2021 by Reset (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Reset said:

They are primitive guns and we already have primitive tools

Yeah, I get that from a "naming" perspective you're right, but to be honest they are needed in the primitive loot so that people can start specializing right off the bat.

But if you compare them to real life guns, they're not so primitive after all. Some of the models we've seen in the preview, are assembled from scrapped parts of modern weapons. That's why I see them more like "scrap weapons" than "primitive weapons".

 

The same thing could be said if we wanted to assemble (i.e.) a "scrap pickaxe" from "modern" parts that we find in the rubble of the apocalypse.

[meganoth]

11 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Yeah, I get that from a "naming" perspective you're right, but to be honest they are needed in the primitive loot so that people can start specializing right off the bat.

But if you compare them to real life guns, they're not so primitive after all. Some of the models we've seen in the preview, are assembled from scrapped parts of modern weapons. That's why I see them more like "scrap weapons" than "primitive weapons".

 

The same thing could be said if we wanted to assemble (i.e.) a "scrap pickaxe" from "modern" parts that we find in the rubble of the apocalypse.

 

If realism were top priority we would have a scrap axe instead of a stone axe. But its not and for gameplay reasons the first starting quest is building a stone axe so that you can create further items. Sure they could give you initial scrap iron to make a scrap axe instead, but then a beginner could loose the scrap somehow (death or crafting something else) and have a problem finding scrap leading to him being stuck without any tool.

 

So we have a primitive stage where you can bootstrap easily and follow a simple progression from stone tools -> get raw mats in nature -> craft melee weapons -> enter POIs get scrap iron -> craft scrap weapon or find them

 

[Jost Amman]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So we have a primitive stage where you can bootstrap easily and follow a simple progression from stone tools -> get raw mats in nature -> craft melee weapons -> enter POIs get scrap iron -> craft scrap weapon or find them

As I said. I don't consider scrap guns as "primitive"... rudimentary yes, ragtag yes, primitive no.

[meganoth]

15 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Now? well we have good tranport so yeah i must agree. but i was talking about rust -  ofc this my opinion only 90% but most of iron on surface is rusted in 7dtd and in mad max - so i quiet bad condition and can't be good source of iron. ofc it can be mined underground . in some places iron will be easier to find in some cooper. so i my opion bronze is still better idea that "pipe tools" do you can can image pipe axe? nope . ofc primitive iron ( simple) tools can work - like rebar fragment as pickax

 

I can image a pipe axe easily. If you have the tools to craft pipe weapons (you would need at least a metal saw, a rasp and a drill) then a pipe axe is trivial:

 

 

The two holes are for a metal pin.

 

15 hours ago, Matt115 said:

well - for example - you have shotgun? you want find autoshotgun etc. so more tier = more time you will spend on game. in terraria you have a lot of tiers and you spend  a lot time on it. and honestly it  50% easier to add new axe that create new type of quest

 

Look at how stone axe already makes lower quality levels of iron axe obsolete. If you just add further tiers inbetween already narrow tiers you just generate more content to be ignored. The only "hole" to plug would be in endgame but that depends how far TFP wants endgame to last in vanilla. They already indicated a few times that vanilla last long enough for a beginner and the minority of players doing dozens of playthroughs can get their fix from mods.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

As I said. I don't consider scrap guns as "primitive"... rudimentary yes, ragtag yes, primitive no.

Sure, but what has that do to with the tier they are supposed to fill? You are free to call them whatever you like, they are the tier0 weapons corresponding to tier0 tools and tier0 melee weapons, all easily optainable at start and craftable without schematics. Any label you put on them is just for immersion.

 

 

 

[Jost Amman]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sure, but what has that do to with the tier they are supposed to fill? You are free to call them whatever you like, they are the tier0 weapons corresponding to tier0 tools and tier0 melee weapons, all easily optainable at start and craftable without schematics. Any label you put on them is just for immersion.

I disagree. From my point of view, all primitive weapons and tools use resources you can "harvest" with mining/woodcutting/punching.

Scrap weapons and tools, on the other hand, can only be crafted with something you can find by looting.

 

So the big difference from a game mechanics perspective, is that in most cases you need to adventure into POIs (or be very lucky with trash looting) to acquire the necessary materials to craft a scrap weapon or tool.

 

As for the tiers overlapping problem, I agree: but that's a problem they already have NOW. They need to rebalance the tiers to make them more meaningful. Everyone knows that, on average, a good primitive stone axe will be more useful than a lower level iron axe. But that's probably something they'll finalize during Beta.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I disagree. From my point of view, all primitive weapons and tools use resources you can "harvest" with mining/woodcutting/punching.

Scrap weapons and tools, on the other hand, can only be crafted with something you can find by looting.

 

So the big difference from a game mechanics perspective, is that in most cases you need to adventure into POIs (or be very lucky with trash looting) to acquire the necessary materials to craft a scrap weapon or tool.

 

You can get scrap iron by hitting any metal object with a stone axe. Lamp posts, trash cans, cars (that one may be risky?), road signs, letter boxes. Lots and lots of counter examples.

So you definitely don't need to go inside any POI to find metal objects. While doing the last introduction quest and locating the trader you are even naturally led to the "city" biome with all the scrap in easy reach.

 

And what about POIs? Players are supposed to go into POIs and raid kitchens to get their first food and some money to pay the trader. The trader gives you tier1 POI quests from the start. POIs are not mid-game locations and never were.

 

There is no **big** difference at all. And there is a simple progression a beginner can follow to get scrap iron.

 

Or just make an experiment. We ask Roland what you need to craft a pipe weapon in A20. Then we start a normal A19 game and we will see if at the end of day 1 we either have enough material to build a pipe gun or we found a blunderbuss (which is the equivalent of the pipe weapons in A19). Nothing we can easily build or find in the first few days of a new game can be anything but tier 0

 

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

 

As for the tiers overlapping problem, I agree: but that's a problem they already have NOW. They need to rebalance the tiers to make them more meaningful. Everyone knows that, on average, a good primitive stone axe will be more useful than a lower level iron axe. But that's probably something they'll finalize during Beta.

 

I mentioned the problem with the iron axe to illustrate that there already is no "empty space" between the tiers and demonstrate how superfluous tiers are in danger of being simply ignored if they don't have space to be useful for the player.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

I can image a pipe axe easily. If you have the tools to craft pipe weapons (you would need at least a metal saw, a rasp and a drill) then a pipe axe is trivial:

 

 

The two holes are for a metal pin.

If you step away from going for a broad head you can do it without the saw and drill, and you can replace the rasp with a chunk of concrete sidewalk (the "smoothing" that is done to the face people walk on makes for a decent honing surface since it still has a texture). 2 pipes (one ends up being "fitted" into the other and then bent and shaped to form the head), a hefty rock (just below being too heavy for you to lift and pound with for any length of time), a campfire to heat the metal a bit, some twine, and a section of sidewalk to hone with would do for something more along the lines of the older styles of metal axe. They aren't great as harvesting tools, but they are decent enough to hold you over till you can get something better.

Edited July 27, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[dcsobral]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

As I said. I don't consider scrap guns as "primitive"... rudimentary yes, ragtag yes, primitive no.

 

adjective

2. having a quality or style that offers an extremely basic level of comfort, convenience, or efficiency.

 

So it fits.

[Roland]

Looking at building block tiers which (currently) have many steps, we see people mostly skipping and going straight to concrete ASAP. Seems like people would do the same with tools even if the developers gave us full sets in bronze and scrap. Now we see the developers planning to scale back the upgrade steps for building blocks so I can't imagine them ever expanding the steps for tools at this point.

[Matt115]

16 hours ago, jorbascrumps said:

You're missing the point, my friend  It's not a question of how but instead why?

well  this same answer - because add more tiers is cheaper  that add quests

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I can image a pipe axe easily. If you have the tools to craft pipe weapons (you would need at least a metal saw, a rasp and a drill) then a pipe axe is trivial:

 

 

The two holes are for a metal pin.

 

 

Look at how stone axe already makes lower quality levels of iron axe obsolete. If you just add further tiers inbetween already narrow tiers you just generate more content to be ignored. The only "hole" to plug would be in endgame but that depends how far TFP wants endgame to last in vanilla. They already indicated a few times that vanilla last long enough for a beginner and the minority of players doing dozens of playthroughs can get their fix from mods.

 

 

Sure, but what has that do to with the tier they are supposed to fill? You are free to call them whatever you like, they are the tier0 weapons corresponding to tier0 tools and tier0 melee weapons, all easily optainable at start and craftable without schematics. Any label you put on them is just for immersion.

 

 

 

well it's looks like something to hit one time and it will stuck in zombie head. well quiet better idea could be put 1 hand small wood axe with primitive rust blade 

 

Well stone axe can be nerfed for this stats are just numbers and can be changed . Btw in this sitation by "mods " you mean weapon and tool mods or game mods?

[meganoth]

59 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

well it's looks like something to hit one time and it will stuck in zombie head. well quiet better idea could be put 1 hand small wood axe with primitive rust blade 

 

Zombies head? I use the stone axe and fire axe mainly for wood cutting. And I don't need to present the best possible tool to show that a pipe axe is easy to build. Which was the only point.

 

59 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

Well stone axe can be nerfed for this stats are just numbers and can be changed . Btw in this sitation by "mods " you mean weapon and tool mods or game mods?

 

I meant game mods. They are supposed to extend the lifetime of the game once you are through with vanilla. Apart from bandits there seem to be no plans to extend the game play past current end game. But we'll see, maybe bandits will lead to a few further changes.

 

Stone axe could be nerfed but people would complain about the stone axe being useless and grindy. Higher tiers could be buffed as well but with a good steel axe you already can get more wood than you have uses for in a vanilla game.

 

[Matt115]

37 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Zombies head? I use the stone axe and fire axe mainly for wood cutting. And I don't need to present the best possible tool to show that a pipe axe is easy to build. Which was the only point.

 

 

I meant game mods. They are supposed to extend the lifetime of the game once you are through with vanilla. Apart from bandits there seem to be no plans to extend the game play past current end game. But we'll see, maybe bandits will lead to a few further changes.

 

Stone axe could be nerfed but people would complain about the stone axe being useless and grindy. Higher tiers could be buffed as well but with a good steel axe you already can get more wood than you have uses for in a vanilla game.

 

i mean pipe axe will not suit in my opinion. well i think more about - what type of model will suits to 7dtd that how to craft this. 

about game mods. it will not work in my opinion - better idea will be expansions like conan or ark - add europe map , russia map, australia map with diffrent zombie types weapons etc.

some of them can be " thematic pack" - like some of them will add horror types enemies poi , another one can add funny stuff like zombie clowns etc

 

ofc some people say that expansion will be paided but honestly anyone know better idea ?

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Roland]

21 hours ago, Blake_ said:

@Roland you look like a gentleman....

 

A gentleman never kisses and tells.

 

Of course, I have only a passing resemblance so I will say that it is the best it's ever been and the cities-- despite being randomly put together-- all seem very polished and fantastic. There are many new POI's that will knock your socks off that work together to make the cities in particular look spectacular. I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas.

[jorbascrumps]

Just now, Roland said:

I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas.

* This is not a promise that POIs will never repeat.

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, jorbascrumps said:

* This is not a promise that POIs will never repeat.

 

* I approve this message.

[Laz Man]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I can image a pipe axe easily. If you have the tools to craft pipe weapons (you would need at least a metal saw, a rasp and a drill) then a pipe axe is trivial:

 

 

The two holes are for a metal pin.

 

 

Look at how stone axe already makes lower quality levels of iron axe obsolete. If you just add further tiers inbetween already narrow tiers you just generate more content to be ignored. The only "hole" to plug would be in endgame but that depends how far TFP wants endgame to last in vanilla. They already indicated a few times that vanilla last long enough for a beginner and the minority of players doing dozens of playthroughs can get their fix from mods.

 

 

Sure, but what has that do to with the tier they are supposed to fill? You are free to call them whatever you like, they are the tier0 weapons corresponding to tier0 tools and tier0 melee weapons, all easily optainable at start and craftable without schematics. Any label you put on them is just for immersion.

 

 

 

Your MS paint drawing deserves a like.  Just saying

[meganoth]

14 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Your MS paint drawing deserves a like.  Just saying

 

I consider this an insult 😁. That drawing was done with inkscape

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

34 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

A gentleman never kisses and tells.

 

Of course, I have only a passing resemblance so I will say that it is the best it's ever been and the cities-- despite being randomly put together-- all seem very polished and fantastic. There are many new POI's that will knock your socks off that work together to make the cities in particular look spectacular. I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas.

any newstands??????????????????????????? if not i will be dissapointed as hell i will make protest and maybe they will add it in A21

[Matt115]

19 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Your MS paint drawing deserves a like.  Just saying

 

6 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I consider that an insult. This was done with inkscape 😁

 

 

 

CIVIL WAR : 7DTD FORUM XDDDDDDD

[Blake_]

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

A gentleman never kisses and tells.

 

Of course, I have only a passing resemblance so I will say that it is the best it's ever been and the cities-- despite being randomly put together-- all seem very polished and fantastic. There are many new POI's that will knock your socks off that work together to make the cities in particular look spectacular. I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas.

I see. So it's exactly what I thought. Some POIs don't make it into the pool even if it's an 8k map. That's the same problem as right now. Nothing did change that much. Just the looks and general distribution, so at the end of the day the only complete experience (in locations) will be Navezgane even compared to a 10k map. I don't like that approach, even if the argument is realistic urban areas, because it reduces the gameplay quality of RWG vs Navezgane.

 

I wish the algorithm was better to guarantee ALL the POIs on 6kX6k (and above) maps PLUS the a20 urban beauty. The current design compels repetition and it shows pretty quickly as soon as 14 hours in.

[Matt115]

9 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

I see. So it's exactly what I thought. Some POIs don't make it into the pool even if it's an 8k map. That's the same problem as right now. Nothing did change that much. Just the looks and general distribution, so at the end of the day the only complete experience (in locations) will be Navezgane even compared to a 10k map. I don't like that approach, even if the argument is realistic urban areas, because it reduces the gameplay quality of RWG vs Navezgane.

 

I wish the algorithm was better to guarantee ALL the POIs on 6kX6k (and above) maps PLUS the a20 urban beauty. The current design compels repetition and it shows pretty quickly as soon as 14 hours in.

what requirements 0.0 i'm simple man i need only newsstand. and 50 more of zombie variants

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

any newstands??????????????????????????? if not i will be dissapointed as hell i will make protest and maybe they will add it in A21

So basically, from what I understand, to make you happy for A20 you only need skeletons and newsstands, right?