A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[doughphunghus]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:54 AM, MechanicalLens said:

 

All the pipe weapons will use their standard ammo types. The blunderbuss and blunderbuss ammo are being removed.

NOOoOoooooooOoooooooo……

 

I love that stupid blunderbuss. Mostly. Sometimes. mostly because it’s big and chunky and goes “BOOOOM arf arf” when your shoot it. sometimes because I usually have to go “oh good gawd I forgot to load the blunderbuss! zombies, you just wait up for a minute and let me get ready!”
 

I “vote” it (any removed weapons?) should be a special item like the Taza axe and found super rarely. I mean, if we’re always cutting things down to a minimum why not “chop” the special axe and special loot chest only it is found in? /s

 

#FindingBlunderbussesButOnlySometimesFanClub

[Jost Amman]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

You can get scrap iron by hitting any metal object with a stone axe. Lamp posts, trash cans, cars (that one may be risky?), road signs, letter boxes. Lots and lots of counter examples. So you definitely don't need to go inside any POI to find metal objects. While doing the last introduction quest and locating the trader you are even naturally led to the "city" biome with all the scrap in easy reach.

You could also find a wrench right away in a POI, and then you can have iron ingots on day 1.

So basically you COULD have tier 2 tools on day 1. So what?

 

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

There is no **big** difference at all. And there is a simple progression a beginner can follow to get scrap iron.

As you often do, I see you're creating a straw man argument that you (apparently) need to win.

 

By "scrap tools/weapons" I wasn't referring to scrap iron, that's silly of you to think that. I even gave you an example of how some of the new pipe weapons look like they were assembled using parts scrapped from other modern guns. In that case, YES, you're using parts that you NEED to loot mostly in POIs.

 

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

I mentioned the problem with the iron axe to illustrate that there already is no "empty space" between the tiers and demonstrate how superfluous tiers are in danger of being simply ignored if they don't have space to be useful for the player.

And I'm telling you that they ALREADY need to fix the tier system.

 

So, since they already need to put their hands on it, it'd be the right time to also add "pipe tools" in a balanced and fun way. It's no rocket science man, you just distribute the stamina usage over a wider range, widen the block damage scale and make the crafting parts proportionally more difficult to acquire during the game for each tier.

 

6 hours ago, dcsobral said:

adjective

2. having a quality or style that offers an extremely basic level of comfort, convenience, or efficiency.

 

So it fits.

Sorry, I don't reply to people who need to look up definitions to understand what they're talking about.  

[Matt115]

17 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

So basically, from what I understand, to make you happy for A20 you only need skeletons and newsstands, right? 

yep.

and in A21 I want just more zombie variants and that's will make me just happy.  yeah this sound deppresing but that's true

ofc i have more ideas which could make my total happy but there is not chance for it in 7dtd so maybe it can be add in next game. ofc i can wrote my idea if you want

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

yep.

and in A21 I want just more zombie variants and that's will make me just happy.  yeah this sound deppresing but that's true

ofc i have more ideas which could make my total happy but there is not chance for it in 7dtd so maybe it can be add in next game. ofc i can wrote my idea if you want

The next GREAT game from Matt115 Games is.... * drumroll * ... "Skeletons & Newsstands" (Rating: Overwhelmingly Positive) 14.264.547 reviews! 

[dcsobral]

3 hours ago, Blake_ said:

I see. So it's exactly what I thought. Some POIs don't make it into the pool even if it's an 8k map. That's the same problem as right now. Nothing did change that much. Just the looks and general distribution, so at the end of the day the only complete experience (in locations) will be Navezgane even compared to a 10k map. I don't like that approach, even if the argument is realistic urban areas, because it reduces the gameplay quality of RWG vs Navezgane.

 

I wish the algorithm was better to guarantee ALL the POIs on 6kX6k (and above) maps PLUS the a20 urban beauty. The current design compels repetition and it shows pretty quickly as soon as 14 hours in.

Pray tell me where did you get that insider information because I certainly saw no claims to that effect! I'm impressed by your ability to review a system that, as far as I know, is still under development. That being the case... what do you think of the bandits? Have they been done to your satisfaction?

[spiceagent11]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:22 AM, Laz Man said:

Grab a chair and a 🍺. This is where the good discussions happen... 😉

I Can see that happening already, Cheers

[Blake_]

3 hours ago, dcsobral said:

Pray tell me where did you get that insider information because I certainly saw no claims to that effect! I'm impressed by your ability to review a system that, as far as I know, is still under development. That being the case... what do you think of the bandits? Have they been done to your satisfaction?

Not the same. Not enough data on bandits and there's no personal experience from previous alphas. You are using a falacy. You can find claims to the opposite (All POI in a map) by only Rick of TFP  but... just as a "hope". YET My opinion is based on Robert's words, the programmer responsible for RWG for 7dtd on the first stream of a20 which specifically stated that RWG is not fully random with full "POI pool generation" (that's what deterministic procedural generation means and results in ), plus Roland confirmation of POi repetition in his last post.  So as you see, and as annoying and blind we might act, the "assumption" is perfectly valid as far as POi distribution and abundance. Also, madmole usually argues "random is random", another hint at a limited pool continuing over a19 (or just a praise to positioning variance effects on the human brain by a random map, who knows how does that man think, lol).

 

How limited vs a19 is the POI pool in a20? I expect less limited but still there. Will we get all the POis 100% of the time in a RWG 8k x 8k map vs the 6k x 6k Navezgane as it should be? There's a good chance that we won't, so that directly ensures that playing a Random map has empirically less gameplay than the main handcrafted map, aside from the obvious repositioning.

 

Believe me that I wish to be proven wrong, but I doubt

[dcsobral]

28 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Not the same. Not enough data on bandits and there's no personal experience from previous alphas. You are using a falacy. You can find claims to the opposite (All POI in a map) by only Rick of TFP  but... just as a "hope". YET My opinion is based on Robert's words, the programmer responsible for RWG for 7dtd on the first stream of a20 which specifically stated that RWG is not fully random with full "POI pool generation" (that's what deterministic procedural generation means and results in ), plus Roland confirmation of POi repetition in his last post.  So as you see, and as annoying and blind we might act, the "assumption" is perfectly valid as far as POi distribution and abundance. Also, madmole usually argues "random is random", another hint at a limited pool continuing over a19 (or just a praise to positioning variance effects on the human brain by a random map, who knows how does that man think, lol).

 

How limited vs a19 is the POI pool in a20? I expect less limited but still there. Will we get all the POis 100% of the time in a RWG 8k x 8k map vs the 6k x 6k Navezgane as it should be? There's a good chance that we won't, so that directly ensures that playing a Random map has empirically less gameplay than the main handcrafted map, aside from the obvious repositioning.

 

Believe me that I wish to be proven wrong, but I doubt

If POI pool generation was fully random, there would be repetition. For the same reason that throwing a dice six times will most likely result in repetitions instead of six different numbers (6-sided dice, to be clear). The fact that he said it is not fully random means it will be possible to reduce repetition.

 

Roland did not confirm that there were repeating POIs. On the contrary, he said he did not see repeated POIs. Here: " I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas."

 

If he had said there were repetitions, it is still as far as we know a work in progress. There's absolutely no reason to think the first thing that would be done would be ensure no POI repetitions. Or, anyway, reduce them since the number of POIs in a map far exceeds the number of existing POIs.

 

So as far as I can see both arguments you present contradict your case, and you didn't account for work in progress anyway.

 

As far as alpha 19 goes, anyway, repetition results from some unfortunate intersection of design choices. Alpha 19 tries to place all POIs before going through any repetition by keeping a list of POIs that have not been placed yet. It also creates cities with zoning and, on top of that, the block size on alpha 19 doesn't match very well with POI sizes. So what happens is that if it tries to place a POI and there's no POI remaining that will fit the space available and zoning it will reset the list of unseen POIs. Whenever that happens, some difficult-to-place POIs like the skyscrapers -- which barely fit a19's city blocks --, lose their priority. In fact, the skyscrapers are most likely one of the main "resetters" as all other Downtown POIs get placed and then the rwg is left with these huge prefabs to fit inside a block that usually already has some other POIs (have you noticed how they are almost always by themselves in a block?). Another likely culprit are the factories: they are HUGE and won't even fit a block. They happen more often than skyscrapers because the Industrial zone includes some stretch of a city border, where they can be placed.

 

Alpha 19 is a good example of an RWG that is not fully random and has a POI pool generation, and it has these qualities precisely to reduce repetition. It fails to do so not because it isn't trying, but because POIs and RWG were not tuned together to make it likely.

 

 

[Blake_]

22 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

If POI pool generation was fully random, there would be repetition. For the same reason that throwing a dice six times will most likely result in repetitions instead of six different numbers (6-sided dice, to be clear). The fact that he said it is not fully random means it will be possible to reduce repetition.

 

Roland did not confirm that there were repeating POIs. On the contrary, he said he did not see repeated POIs. Here: " I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas."

 

If he had said there were repetitions, it is still as far as we know a work in progress. There's absolutely no reason to think the first thing that would be done would be ensure no POI repetitions. Or, anyway, reduce them since the number of POIs in a map far exceeds the number of existing POIs.

 

So as far as I can see both arguments you present contradict your case, and you didn't account for work in progress anyway.

 

As far as alpha 19 goes, anyway, repetition results from some unfortunate intersection of design choices. Alpha 19 tries to place all POIs before going through any repetition by keeping a list of POIs that have not been placed yet. It also creates cities with zoning and, on top of that, the block size on alpha 19 doesn't match very well with POI sizes. So what happens is that if it tries to place a POI and there's no POI remaining that will fit the space available and zoning it will reset the list of unseen POIs. Whenever that happens, some difficult-to-place POIs like the skyscrapers -- which barely fit a19's city blocks --, lose their priority. In fact, the skyscrapers are most likely one of the main "resetters" as all other Downtown POIs get placed and then the rwg is left with these huge prefabs to fit inside a block that usually already has some other POIs (have you noticed how they are almost always by themselves in a block?). Another likely culprit are the factories: they are HUGE and won't even fit a block. They happen more often than skyscrapers because the Industrial zone includes some stretch of a city border, where they can be placed.

 

Alpha 19 is a good example of an RWG that is not fully random and has a POI pool generation, and it has these qualities precisely to reduce repetition. It fails to do so not because it isn't trying, but because POIs and RWG were not tuned together to make it likely.

 

 

I'm ok with repetition. But I'm stating, saying and directly pointing out that Navezgane has ALL the POIs, and in a20 an 8k map probably won't have ALL the POis. And Navezgane has 6k x 6k resulting in less empirical gameplay by technical quantity. Something is wrong. Do you undestand ?

 It might be eventually fixed.... but data shows otherwise. 

[Roland]

9 hours ago, Blake_ said:

I see. So it's exactly what I thought. Some POIs don't make it into the pool even if it's an 8k map. That's the same problem as right now. Nothing did change that much.

 

Wut? How did you get all of that from what I said?

 

13 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

Roland did not confirm that there were repeating POIs. On the contrary, he said he did not see repeated POIs. Here: " I did not see repeating POIs as I have in past alphas."

 

Exactly. I can't guarantee that not one single POI repeated somewhere on the map but I can tell you that the problem you described of seeing duplicate water works facilities and radio towers all over the place was not in evidence at all. I cannot speak to the technical aspect of the programming of RWG and I do not know if every single POI will show up once per map, once per city, or some other criteria. I don't know if coding was added to prevent duplication of POIs within the same map. All I know from traveling around in one random map I generated was that I saw no duplicates and that cities were laid out in very satisfying and realistic ways and that there are new POI's that have specifically been added to make the urban downtown areas look really really nice.

 

From the little very generalized description that I gave, you either have mad extrapolation instincts or you are just mad....

[Blake_]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

 

Wut? How did you get all of that from what I said?

 

 

Exactly. I can't guarantee that not one single POI repeated somewhere on the map but I can tell you that the problem you described of seeing duplicate water works facilities and radio towers all over the place was not in evidence at all. I cannot speak to the technical aspect of the programming of RWG and I do not know if every single POI will show up once per map, once per city, or some other criteria. I don't know if coding was added to prevent duplication of POIs within the same map. All I know from traveling around in one random map I generated was that I saw no duplicates and that cities were laid out in very satisfying and realistic ways and that there are new POI's that have specifically been added to make the urban downtown areas look really really nice.

 

From the little very generalized description that I gave, you either have mad extrapolation instincts or you are just mad....

As I said. No problem with repetition whatsoever. It's just the lack of the full POI pool that is objectively wrong and makes RWG a lesser experience than Navezgane judging solely on POIs variety. Now, we shouldn't expect 4k maps to have all the POIs, but yes to all of the other sizes, wouldn't you say? That is not the case right now. A huge chunk of POIs won't usually spawn on a 8k map on any roll or seed. There are always some that won't get in and I'm saying that all should get the cut if RWG map size surpasses Navezgane size.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Blake_ said:

I'm ok with repetition. But I'm stating, saying and directly pointing out that Navezgane has ALL the POIs, and in a20 an 8k map probably won't have ALL the POis. And Navezgane has 6k x 6k resulting in less empirical gameplay by technical quantity. Something is wrong. Do you undestand ?

 It might be eventually fixed.... but data shows otherwise. 

 

First of all, we don't know whether or not RWG maps of any size will have ALL the POI's.

 

Secondly, we don't know whether or not RWG maps of any size are intended by the developers to have ALL the POI's.

 

You are making two large assumptions. The first is baseless because no technical data has been revealed to indicate it one way or another. The second means that there could be nothing wrong at all when a map doesn't generate one of every single POI. That could be the intended result of random world generation. The developers may make it so you find new sites when you roll a new world and one playthrough on one map isn't enough to experience the entirety of the game.

 

[Blake_]

Just now, Roland said:

 

First of all, we don't know whether or not RWG maps of any size will have ALL the POI's.

 

And I take issue in that (barring 4k maps). I stand my case. We'll wait and see.

[Roland]

Just now, Blake_ said:

As I said. No problem with repetition whatsoever. It's just the lack of the full POI pool that is objectively wrong and makes RWG a lesser experience than Navezgane judging solely on POIs variety. Now, we shouldn't expect 4k maps to have all the POIs, but yes to all of the other sizes, wouldn't you say? That is not the case right now. A huge chunk of POIs won't usually spawn on a 8k map on any roll or seed. There are always some that won't get in and I'm saying that all should get the cut if RWG map size surpasses Navezgane size.

 

Well I disagree with that assertion. That isn't to say the developers won't change things for A20 or possibly A21 if you end up being correct in this for A20-- BUT there is nothing at all objective about you saying it is wrong to not have every single POI present in every map. That is your subjective opinion. Mine is that random should be random and a random sample of 80% of the POIs per map would be just fine so that maps have unique POIs and new places to discover for at least the first several playthroughs that you roll a new world

 

[Blake_]

Just now, Roland said:

 

Well I disagree with that assertion. That isn't to say the developers won't change things for A20 or possibly A21 if you end up being correct in this for A20-- BUT there is nothing at all objective about you saying it is wrong to not have every single POI present in every map. That is your subjective opinion. Mine is that random should be random and a random sample of 80% of the POIs per map would be just fine so that maps have unique POIs and new places to discover for at least the first several playthroughs that you roll a new world

 

I'm sorry, but what if I tell you that you can play Skyrim in a random gen mode which shuffles the cities but that mode lacks Whiterun, an INN in Solitude and Rorickstead?

 

Is that subjective? I don't think so. That makes Navezgane the complete experience and RWG just a lacking lookalike that doesn't offer an alternative (aside from shuffling positions/ terrain) , but instead offers a lesser empirical experience.

[Roland]

I think we should have 7 Days to Die Blue and 7 Days to Die Red and each version only ever spawns half the pool of POI's and the only way to experience all the POIs is to play in a world generated by someone who has the other version....

 

#gottacatchemall

[Blake_]

Just now, Roland said:

I think we should have 7 Days to Die Blue and 7 Days to Die Red and each version only ever spawns half the pool of POI's and the only way to experience all the POIs is to play in a world generated by someone who has the other version....

 

#gottacatchemall

Ok. I hate you sweetly. I don't think I'm alone in this. Rick talks about that in the first stream before being corrected by kynasjdfnasju.  And that would certainly be cool. I believe more players than you think would love to play a completely random experience that has the full POI pool (neverminding a little repetition) for maps equal or higher than Navezgane.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Blake_ said:

I'm sorry, but what if I tell you that you can play Skyrim in a random gen mode which shuffles the cities but that mode lacks Whiterun, an INN in Solitude and Rorickstead?

 

Is that subjective? I don't think so. That makes Navezgane the complete experience and RWG just a lacking lookalike that doesn't offer an alternative (aside from shuffling positions/ terrain) , but instead offers a lesser empirical experience.

 

They are different worlds. And you better believe that there would be those interested in the challenge of surviving in a world without particular POI's that show up.

 

Regardless, it is ridiculous to compare Skyrim and 7 Days to Die locations. Skyrim locations are story based while 7 Days locations are not. If Poopy Pants Daycare doesn't spawn you won't be stopped in your progression. There are other places to get the loot you would have found in PPD. 

 

Regardless of you thinking that your subjective opinion is somehow an objective universal truth held by all gamers, I gotta disabuse you of your fixed belief. There are more Not Blakes out there than you seem to realize and plenty who aren't concerned about whether Old_House_01, Old_House_02, Old_House_03,..., Old_House_24 are all present on every single map generated every single time. If every POI always generates on every map then there really is just one map rearranged but all the same places every single time.

 

Nope. Your view is definitely not objective-- given the data we have so far.

[Blake_]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

Nope. Your view is definitely not objective-- given the data we have so far.

That statement makes you arguably correct. We don't have enough data. I'd like to think I do, though.

We'll wait and see. I can wait. I swear.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Ok. I hate you sweetly. I don't think I'm alone in this. Rick talks about that in the first stream before being corrected by kynasjdfnasju.  And that would certainly be cool. I believe more players than you think would love to play a completely random experience that has the full POI pool (neverminding a little repetition) for maps equal or higher than Navezgane.

 

I can agree that many many players would love to play randomly generated worlds that have the full 100% complement of POI's. It still doesn't make it an objectively better design. It artificially bolsters your argument for anyone who believes the claim, but what you describe as the ultimate map is only your subjective view of what an ultimate map should contain. 

 

To me, the ultimate random map is random and full of unknowns-- such as what locations will be included and what locations are not part of this particular world. If I know for a fact Dishong Tower is somewhere in this world then ho..hum....I'll find it eventually. But if all bets are off and perhaps there are no skyscrapers in this world then if I do find one it is exciting. (In my subjective opinion)

Just now, Blake_ said:

That statement makes you arguably correct. We don't have enough data. I'd like to think I do, though.

We'll wait and see. I can wait. I swear.

 

That was a joke. Even with all the data your view about whether a world should or should not have all the POI's and whether that makes the game better or worse is still subjective. Sorry, all those feelings and desires just originate within your own head and heart and someone else will have their own set of sensibilities that make their experience different than yours (i.e. "subjective")

[Blake_]

Just now, Roland said:

 

I can agree that many many players would love to play randomly generated worlds that have the full 100% complement of POI's. It still doesn't make it an objectively better design. It artificially bolsters your argument for anyone who believes the claim, but what you describe as the ultimate map is only your subjective view of what an ultimate map should contain. 

 

To me, the ultimate random map is random and full of unknowns-- such as what locations will be included and what locations are not part of this particular world. If I know for a fact Dishong Tower is somewhere in this world then ho..hum....I'll find it eventually. But if all bets are off and perhaps there are no skyscrapers in this world then if I do find one it is exciting. (In my subjective opinion)

That's the kind of coolness that a generation option would certainly improve. But what if the single player campaign takes place in the Dishong tower and the single player campaign is guaranteed to be in RWG but without the Dishong tower you get nothing?

 

Forget about that future campaign . What if the pool generation gets the short straw and you end up with just 1 tier 5 POI for quests in the whole 8k map? Unlikely, but it can happen. Your subjective ideal is very subjective. My ideal is just: give me the full 7dtd POI experience please (again, except 4k maps). THEN you can randomize whatever the heck you want.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Your subjective ideal is very subjective.

 

Really? We're at the point of comparing the sizes of our subjective ideal's subjectivity.....?

 

4 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

My ideal is just: give me the full 7dtd POI experience please

 

That's a nice request. Nothing objectively wrong with that.

[bachgaman]

7 hours ago, Gobarg said:

I chopped a tree down and killed a zombie.  This should be an achievement! It's awesome

You reminded me of one thing when my friends and I first played 7DTD we had a base in the form of a building with a fence around which there was a moat. And on one of the first nights, the zombies broke a tree that grew by the fence and it fell on the roof of our house. At that moment, I was simultaneously shocked and delighted with the genius of the game, thinking that the zombies deliberately knocked down a tree in order to use it to climb onto our roof. Unfortunately, after a few seconds the tree disappeared into thin air, and I got a little upset

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Blake_ said:

That's the kind of coolness that a generation option would certainly improve. But what if the single player campaign takes place in the Dishong tower and the single player campaign is guaranteed to be in RWG but without the Dishong tower you get nothing?

 

Forget about that future campaign . What if the pool generation gets the short straw and you end up with just 1 tier 5 POI for quests in the whole 8k map? Unlikely, but it can happen. Your subjective ideal is very subjective. My ideal is just: give me the full 7dtd POI experience please (again, except 4k maps). THEN you can randomize whatever the heck you want.

 

In A19 it is already guaranteed by the algorithm that essential POIs are in a map. I refer to the traders of course. So if a POI is essential for the story add it to the special list the traders are in. Done.

 

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

The next GREAT game from Matt115 Games is.... * drumroll * ... "Skeletons & Newsstands" (Rating: Overwhelmingly Positive) 14.264.547 reviews! 

 

Bill Atkins was simple newsstand owner. His wife wanted divorce , his kids had problems at school and his business go wrong when most shops became automatic. But in this deppresing far future of.... 2025! something positive happens. in one of labs some drunks docs create antimatter and make to hole to another dimenshion . but something go wrong and world change into postapo westland with elves dragons zombies and evil tax office. Now as skeleton Bill Atkins have chance to improve his notlive standards ! sell  guns and toilet paper. tell rumors. keep your beer cold (it's shame you can drink it but you still can sell someone who is not skeleton = profit). take care about your children ( well your wife is not longer problem - she was crashed when iron gollem fall from sky on her and her yoga instructor). Bill Atkins  live( or not live?) is in your hands innnnn "Skeletons & Newsstands"!

You know Jost? i hope  Roland will show this idea to TFP . it will be perfect economic tyccon/rpg