Tried A19, A16 is still best Alpha

[eXSe]

Not everything has to, or can for that matter, be optimal. Therefore, I'd be for choices also.

[HungryZombie]

20 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Thanks

 

It still really doesn't change anything.... without item degradation, choice is very simple.  If you find a better item you keep it, if its worse you sell it.   With item degradation you have to think about how long will my current item last.... if it will last long enough, I can sell the item I found.... if its nearing the end of its life, I have to consider keeping what I found, even though its a little worse.   

 

Complicated choices are good for the game.... A>B so sell B is not complicated.

So we agree that the game does not lack a reason to keep looting even once you a purple item.

 

I'm not sure I understand the complicated choice you are referring to. In fact there is little choice. The item is going to break no matter what. Use it up and move on. That's pretty simple if you ask me. Kind of a kick in the balls when you find the perfect stat weapon and you know you're only going to get 5 uses out of it or whatever.

 

Still, my intent was not to discuss the validity of item degradation but rather to verify that random stats did indeed remain in the game because if there are random stats, then there is indeed an incentive to keep looting even after you find a purple item.

 

A fact that seemed to be overlooked in the discussion.

 

 

[Kalen]

15 minutes ago, HungryZombie said:

I'm not sure I understand the complicated choice you are referring to. In fact there is little choice. The item is going to break no matter what. Use it up and move on. That's pretty simple if you ask me. Kind of a kick in the balls when you find the perfect stat weapon and you know you're only going to get 5 uses out of it or whatever.

If items last forever, the only time you would keep a new item is if its superior to the old item.   That is a simple choice.

 

If an item doesn't last forever then you have to decide what is more important:  Having an eventual replacement for your current item or the coins you would get by selling it.  That is not as simple a choice.

 

And I agree, getting 5 uses out of an item would be silly..... getting unlimited uses out of an item is equally silly

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Kalen said:

If an item doesn't last forever then you have to decide what is more important:  Having an eventual replacement for your current item or the coins you would get by selling it.  That is not as simple a choice.

You assume that an equivalent replacement can always be found. I have one purple Auto Shotgun and one purple Auger and I haven't found another one yet because they are so rare.

I can craft a blue variant of both at any time but there is a mod slot missing. So if I know that a certain item is very rare and I won't get it again in this game with high probability then it's pointless to use it because I can't keep it anyway. It's just a collector's item in a showcase. Nice to look at but useless.

 

[Ramethzer0]

On 8/2/2020 at 3:12 AM, Dethar said:

I still have original Castle Wolfenstein floppy somewhere. Think it was for my Commodore 64.

I STILL play Age of Empires 1 and 2.  More 2 than 1.   I yearn for an updated version/remake of Starflight.

[Feycat]

8 hours ago, eXSe said:

Yes, exactly. It has become an XP grind to get to where you want instead of organic progression through sheer gameplay.

 

I do know that LBD was used and abused, but so can be everything... fire up 20 forges, call up screamers and farm them for XP. What's better about that? Huh.

The difference is that I'm actually getting stronger by DOING something.

 

Saying "it makes sense to make 500 axes and get better at making guns" and then ALSO saying "it's stupid to be able to farm screamers for xp to get better at making axes" is self-contradictory at BEST and hypocritical as all get-out.  Tf is "organic" about making 500 axes to level but actually *fighting zombies in the zombie game* somehow isn't?

[Kalen]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You assume that an equivalent replacement can always be found. I have one purple Auto Shotgun and one purple Auger and I haven't found another one yet because they are so rare.

I can craft a blue variant of both at any time but there is a mod slot missing. So if I know that a certain item is very rare and I won't get it again in this game with high probability then it's pointless to use it because I can't keep it anyway. It's just a collector's item in a showcase. Nice to look at but useless.

 

I dont assume that at all.   That just adds to the challenge, IMO.   

 

I guess I just don't understand the mentality of being afraid of losing an item so you never use it.... with that philosophy you might as well not bother looting the item in the first place and save an inventory slot.

[RipClaw]

13 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I dont assume that at all.   That just adds to the challenge, IMO. 

No, it only adds frustration. Imagine you find after all this searching finally the Q6 item you searched but you know you can't keep it. So what is it good for? I might as well stick with my Q5 items that I could craft at any time.
 

18 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I guess I just don't understand the mentality of being afraid of losing an item so you never use it.... with that philosophy you might as well not bother looting the item in the first place and save an inventory slot.

I didn't say I was afraid to lose it, but I see it as pointless to do so. Why even fill the last modslot when some repairs later the quality will drop by one level anyway ?

 

Currently I do not have this problem and I never had it. When degradation was part of the game, we were able to craft flawless items and combine parts to bring everything back to maximum quality.

By the way, I always keep one spare for everything I use. Just in case I lose it. I don't rely on luck but on preparation.

 

[Kalen]

5 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

No, it only adds frustration. Imagine you find after all this searching finally the Q6 item you searched but you know you can't keep it. So what is it good for? I might as well stick with my Q5 items that I could craft at any time.
 

I didn't say I was afraid to lose it, but I see it as pointless to do so. Why even fill the last modslot when some repairs later the quality will drop by one level anyway ?

 

Currently I do not have this problem and I never had it. When degradation was part of the game, we were able to craft flawless items and combine parts to bring everything back to maximum quality.

By the way, I always keep one spare for everything I use. Just in case I lose it. I don't rely on luck but on preparation.

 

What good is it for?   What good is any item in the game good for.... you use it.   Currently, you just use it forever, there is no decisions to be made.  With item degradation, you use it when you feel you need it, now you have to make decisions.  

 

How is it pointless?   Items only have a point if they last forever?   I'm not going to debate how a system that doesn't exist will or won't work.... but if it were up to me, items would keep their number of mod slots and just degrade in quality.   

 

On a side note.... how do you break up a quote into 2 or more sections?   I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

[FileMachete]

16 minutes ago, Kalen said:

On a side note.... how do you break up a quote into 2 or more sections?   I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Rather than clicking the "Quote" button, highlight the text you want and there should be a little popup "Quote selection"

[RipClaw]

27 minutes ago, Kalen said:

What good is it for?   What good is any item in the game good for.... you use it.   Currently, you just use it forever, there is no decisions to be made.  With item degradation, you use it when you feel you need it, now you have to make decisions.  

But you only have to make this decision if you cannot craft something.

 

For example I can craft a Q5 Auger with 3 modslots. The reason why I want a Q6 Auger is because it has 4 mod slots and does a little more block damage. It is a Quality of Live upgrade but nothing really critical. I can work with the Q5 Auger as well. It just takes a little longer.

 

Same with the Auto Shotgun. I can craft a Q5 Auto Shotgun and with the random stats it can do more damage than a Q6 I find. Maybe I need one more shot at a radioactive zombie because I don't have a Rad Remover in the Q5 Auto Shotgun but the Q5 is sufficient and I can craft it again and again.

 

So why use Q6 if I can't keep the items anyway? They end up in a box or are sold.

 

You may be a player that never craft anything but I prefer crafting over looting. Looting is boring in the long run. You do the same over and over again.

I prefer to build and I am already forced to loot more than I want to. If such a system would come I would mod it out because I have no desire to loot any more than necessary.

 

52 minutes ago, Kalen said:

How is it pointless?   Items only have a point if they last forever?   I'm not going to debate how a system that doesn't exist will or won't work.... but if it were up to me, items would keep their number of mod slots and just degrade in quality.   

So tell me what is the point of using a Q6 item instead of the Q5 you can craft yourself if you can not keep it? Q6 items are not god weapons oder god tools. They are a little bit better but not to that extend that they are needed to survive. For me it's about the same as those candies. They give you a buff for a limited time but that's it.

 

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

On a side note.... how do you break up a quote into 2 or more sections?   I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Mark the section you want to quote and then a popup appears.

 

Spoiler

 

[Kalen]

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

So tell me what is the point of using a Q6 item instead of the Q5 you can craft yourself if you can not keep it? Q6 items are not god weapons oder god tools. They are a little bit better but not to that extend that they are needed to survive. For me it's about the same as those candies. They give you a buff for a limited time but that's it.

You actually made my point.... I love crafting and item degradation makes crafting more relevant, not less.    You actually made a perfect example.... so say you have two weapons, a QL5 and QL6.   They have the same mods but the QL6 has rad remover in the extra slot.   Perfect, save that for when you encounter radiated enemies and use the QL5 one when you don't.

 

If there was no item degradation, the fact that you can craft QL5 items means nothing once you have a QL6.   With item degradation, you're covered because you can always craft a replacement if you don't loot an acceptable replacement.

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, eXSe said:

I agree. Those who want to min/max or farm XP will do things in the most efficient perceived manner with the system gifts/restrictions that they've been given. All of that is fine and i know that that will happen.

 

What I'm saying is simply that I had a much more fun and immersive experience in the game with that old system. Why? It felt more natural to progress in those areas in which you expended effort. You did the things you liked, wanted or needed to do and you got better at them without thinking about it... every now and then you were pleasantly surprised with "hey, you've got better at X" and I liked that. It was like a little present you weren't expecting to get

 

"But what if you hate Y and need it? Now you have to grind it by doing the exact thing you hate." Well, yes and no. If you're a completionist, then yes. But it's your own damn fault Otherwise, you can make do with trading and scavenging to fill that need.

 

In the end, I know that I'm wasting my breath with this topic, but I just don't see the up side with this system over that one.

That may well be part of the explanation, but another part is that the longer you play a game, even when it gets some refresh through new updates, the more you get used to it and it looses its novelty. An unbiased subjective comparison can't be made that way anymore. I will never experience the game again as vividly as I did my first, second or third playthrough. The only way we practically could compare the two systems would be to turn off any new features of A19 except the perk system (which would also invalidate some of the perk effects, but oh well) and have two groups of new players play both games for a while and measure their satisfaction and how long the continue to play the game.

 

I have been playing another EA game for years, Factorio. They never drastically changed the game since I started it, never did experiments like TFP has done, but if you ask me there is something missing now when I play it. If it didn't play multiplayer with some good friends I probably would have dropped it by now.

 

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

No, it only adds frustration. Imagine you find after all this searching finally the Q6 item you searched but you know you can't keep it. So what is it good for? I might as well stick with my Q5 items that I could craft at any time.
 

I didn't say I was afraid to lose it, but I see it as pointless to do so. Why even fill the last modslot when some repairs later the quality will drop by one level anyway ?

 

Currently I do not have this problem and I never had it. When degradation was part of the game, we were able to craft flawless items and combine parts to bring everything back to maximum quality.

By the way, I always keep one spare for everything I use. Just in case I lose it. I don't rely on luck but on preparation.

 

 

So if you buy a good coffee machine in real life you never use it because it will malfunction eventually?

 

It isn't pointless to use a better tool for say 2 weeks because in that 2 weeks it will generate the benefits compared to the lesser tool. After that you can use the lesser tool again. Net result: More resources. I understand that there is a psychological effect that pushes people to hoard valuable stuff and a Q6 is more valuable than a Q5, but it is only more valuable when it is actually used, not when it is sold for coins in a highly inflationary market.

 

[RipClaw]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

So if you buy a good coffee machine in real life you never use it because it will malfunction eventually?

I would not buy the worst coffee machine because it probably breaks down quickly, nor the best coffee machine because it is probably very expensive, but something in between.

 

Let's say you could have the coffee machine that makes the best coffee in the world but it's so expensive that it costs you a whole month's salary. It know to break down after two weeks.

Would you save up to afford this coffee machine or buy a cheaper one that you can afford at any time when it breaks down ?

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

It isn't pointless to use a better tool for say 2 weeks because in that 2 weeks it will generate the benefits compared to the lesser tool. After that you can use the lesser tool again. Net result: More resources.

Like I wrote. I see it with degradation as a short-lived buff.

 

I've done over a dozen T5 quests to get to a Q6 Auger. Ironically I found it in a destroyed workbench when I did a T1 quest.
It was a huge joy. With degradation my joy would be not much greater than when I see the vending machine sells Rockbuster candy.

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I understand that there is a psychological effect that pushes people to hoard valuable stuff and a Q6 is more valuable than a Q5, but it is only more valuable when it is actually used, not when it is sold for coins in a highly inflationary market.

But you don't seem to understand the psychological effect of getting something you know you can't keep as opposed to getting something you can keep. A gift also makes you more happy than something you get on loan.
 

[Kalen]

9 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I've done over a dozen T5 quests to get to a Q6 Auger. Ironically I found it in a destroyed workbench when I did a T1 quest.
It was a huge joy. With degradation my joy would be not much greater than when I see the vending machine sells Rockbuster candy.

Thats a pretty extreme reaction.... its still a QL6 Auger that you would get to use for a period of time.   If degradation were a thing (which it sounds like its not going to be) items should wear down more slowly so that they'd last longer between repairs, IMO.

 

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

But you don't seem to understand the psychological effect of getting something you know you can't keep as opposed to getting something you can keep. A gift also makes you more happy than something you get on loan.

Sure, but a gift that lasts forever doesn't necessarily make for good game play.

 

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I would not buy the worst coffee machine because it probably breaks down quickly, nor the best coffee machine because it is probably very expensive, but something in between.

 

Let's say you could have the coffee machine that makes the best coffee in the world but it's so expensive that it costs you a whole month's salary. It know to break down after two weeks.

Would you save up to afford this coffee machine or buy a cheaper one that you can afford at any time when it breaks down ?

Like I wrote. I see it with degradation as a short-lived buff.

I may have misread your previous post that you claimed that once you had that q6 you would just store it in a box instead of using it because it degrades. "So why use Q6 if I can't keep the items anyway? They end up in a box or are sold." sounded very much like that. What you are arguing now is that searching for the item aka expending effort is no use if it is shortlived. That we can agree on.

 

Still, you are arguing with extremes and I feel I'm trying to argue against a rant, not a serious argument. For people playing the game usually for less than 10 weeks 2 weeks are significant and they will only see a Q6 get useless or degrade to Q5 once in their in-game lifetime. If you play it for double that time it would be more significant, but still, that is no comparison to 2 weeks in real-life.

 

Here is another useless analogy: "Would you buy a watch that costs you 1 cent and lasts for a million years until it breaks down?".

 

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

 

I've done over a dozen T5 quests to get to a Q6 Auger. Ironically I found it in a destroyed workbench when I did a T1 quest.
It was a huge joy. With degradation my joy would be not much greater than when I see the vending machine sells Rockbuster candy.

But you don't seem to understand the psychological effect of getting something you know you can't keep as opposed to getting something you can keep. A gift also makes you more happy than something you get on loan.
 

By taking it to the extremes, yes, a q6 is like rock candy. We can agree to that.

 

[Dracula]

I want to see a return to being able to craft T6 items again; make it a perk or do something, but we should be able to craft T6 in a CRAFTING game.

[RipClaw]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I may have misread your previous post that you claimed that once you had that q6 you would just store it in a box instead of using it because it degrades. "So why use Q6 if I can't keep the items anyway? They end up in a box or are sold." sounded very much like that.

A Q6 item would simply not be something I could strive for because it doesn't offer substantial added value in the long run. As I wrote earlier "A collector's item or a trophy".

I did the dozen T5 quests not because I enjoyed them but to get a Q6 auger. Just wouldn't have been worth my time if this was just a Q6 auger for a while.

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Still, you are arguing with extremes and I feel I'm trying to argue against a rant, not a serious argument.

Which serious argument against degradation would you accept ? I currently see no advantage in degradation but this argument don't seem enough for you.

Fortunately Madmole is on the same side as me.

38 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For people playing the game usually for less than 10 weeks 2 weeks are significant and they will only see a Q6 get useless or degrade to Q5 once in their in-game lifetime.

Well, I play for a long time. Often more than 200 ingame days. And the Q6 auger is so rare that I have never found it twice in one playthrough since A17. If you only play 10 ingame weeks, the chances of finding a Q6 auger are slim anyway with the current loot progress.

 

I think the problem is that many people don't understand how rare Q6 motor tools are in contrast to weapons. I find Q6 T3 weapons all the time. Most of the time melee weapons but also a lot of M60. But tools are much rarer because there are much more weapons bags and shotgun messiah crates in the world than working stiff crates or other containers with tools.

 

[Kalen]

17 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I think the problem is that many people don't understand how rare Q6 motor tools are in contrast to weapons. I find Q6 T3 weapons all the time. Most of the time melee weapons but also a lot of M60. But tools are much rarer because there are much more weapons bags and shotgun messiah crates in the world than working stiff crates or other containers with tools.

I must be lucky then.... in my current game I'm on day 33 and have found 2 Q6 chainsaws.   Unfortunately, I've only found a Q5 auger so far.

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, Kalen said:

Thats a pretty extreme reaction.... its still a QL6 Auger that you would get to use for a period of time.   If degradation were a thing (which it sounds like its not going to be) items should wear down more slowly so that they'd last longer between repairs, IMO.

I did a dozen T5 quests to get a Q6 Auger as reward and not because I enjoyed it. Now that I have the Q6 auger I only do smaller quests because they are not so time consuming.

If degradation were a thing, I would not have taken the trouble. If I had found the Auger by accident, I probably would have used it but I wouldn't have done a dozen T5 quests.
 

If the objects wear down more slowly then it would break balancing when it comes to repair costs. Imagine how different the horde night would be when you never have to repair your weapon.
 

2 hours ago, Kalen said:

Sure, but a gift that lasts forever doesn't necessarily make for good game play.

But it doesn't make bad game play either.

1 minute ago, Kalen said:

I must be lucky then.... in my current game I'm on day 33 and have found 2 Q6 chainsaws.   Unfortunately, I've only found a Q5 auger so far.

To get a gamestage this high to find Q6 T3 tools on day 33 you have to increase your XP settings to 300%.

 

[Kalen]

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

But it doesn't make bad game play either.

No, but it does make game play worse, IMO

 

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

To get a gamestage this high to find Q6 T3 tools on day 33 you have to increase your XP settings to 300%.

Yup.... I'm not a fan of early game, so I like to get my GS up.

[meganoth]

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

A Q6 item would simply not be something I could strive for because it doesn't offer substantial added value in the long run. As I wrote earlier "A collector's item or a trophy".

I did the dozen T5 quests not because I enjoyed them but to get a Q6 auger. Just wouldn't have been worth my time if this was just a Q6 auger for a while.

Which serious argument against degradation would you accept ? 

The one where you don't argue with extremes 😉

 

For example what you wrote below is surely better at convincing me than the "cheap" 2 weeks working coffee machine.

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

 

 

I currently see no advantage in degradation but this argument don't seem enough for you.

Fortunately Madmole is on the same side as me.

Well, I play for a long time. Often more than 200 ingame days. And the Q6 auger is so rare that I have never found it twice in one playthrough since A17. If you only play 10 ingame weeks, the chances of finding a Q6 auger are slim anyway with the current loot progress.

 

I think the problem is that many people don't understand how rare Q6 motor tools are in contrast to weapons. I find Q6 T3 weapons all the time. Most of the time melee weapons but also a lot of M60. But tools are much rarer because there are much more weapons bags and shotgun messiah crates in the world than working stiff crates or other containers with tools.

 

 

One thing should be taken into account though: If degradation would get into the game, finding such items would have to be increased too as the demand is higher. That is a central point of the argument pro degradation: To get a higher turnover both supply and demand has to increase.

 

I am somewhat pro degradation, but I'm only pro degradation if it means a degradation in steps, i.e. down to Q5 then Q4... Not that the item simply stops working after a few repairs. So if someone finds a Q6 and it downgrades, it will still work as a Q5 for a while. Replacing it is only neccessary if you find or build a really better one. Which is just a matter of time.

 

It might mean that you specifically do not look for Q6 motor tools anymore, but since you don't play long games because of Q6 carrots before your nose but because you build big I don't see the harm.

 

[Kalen]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

It might mean that you specifically do not look for Q6 motor tools anymore, but since you don't play long games because of Q6 carrots before your nose but because you build big I don't see the harm.

I think the whole idea of looking for a specific Q6 item is a bad approach for a survival game.   I want the game to play in such a way that you don't have that luxury.... you look for whatever you can find and use whatever you can find to the best of your ability.   Sometimes that means you get lucky and find that Q6 shotgun you're specc'd into.... and sometimes you're not lucky and you end up using a Q4 AK that you're not specc'd into.   

 

When items last forever every game ends up being pretty much the same.... you keep looting till you get what you want then you're done.

 

[Roland]

10 hours ago, RipClaw said:

So if I know that a certain item is very rare and I won't get it again in this game with high probability then it's pointless to use it because I can't keep it anyway. It's just a collector's item in a showcase. Nice to look at but useless.

That is just bonkers to me. Useless? Not by a long shot. You get great use out of it while you have it and then you have a great memory of that time you had it. 

 

What if there’s a high probability you won’t get one in your next game? Do you never start over? Do you just stay in that save forever with your purple auger?  
 

I suppose that degradation really should be dropped in the same way that locked POV which caused nausea and high pitched ringing which aggravated tinnitus were dropped. If there really are people who experience such high levels of anxiety at the thought of their best tool eventually wearing out that they can’t even use the tool at all— TFP has a responsibility to accommodate them too. 

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Dracula said:

I want to see a return to being able to craft T6 items again; make it a perk or do something, but we should be able to craft T6 in a CRAFTING game.

I regret that I have but one like to give this post. Q6 should only be craftable, never looted nor bought. You can get really, really good weapons/tools/armor through looting and trading, but the best stuff is lovingly hand-crafted at home. I will never get what I want in vanilla, and I am fine with that.

 

Count me as +1 for gradual degradation, tho. Like, every time you repair an item it loses 10% or 20% overall durability. 1st time it repairs back to 90%. Next time 80%. And so on. Still plenty of life, but ya gonna need a replacement eventually. I likely will not get this in vanilla either, which is why I ❤️ modders.

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

That is just bonkers to me. Useless? Not by a long shot. You get great use out of it while you have it and then you have a great memory of that time you had it.

But enough about your love life...