rambling on about min-maxing & perk choices

[Vampirenostra]

Do not really understand what is it all about. Being and int perked you can easily put a huge amount of traps and deadly corridors for the horde night and notice that something is happening only by sounds from outside your base... Making a base in form of a shell with a long corridor running around your base many times produces an absolutely impassable fence informs on zeds. just add few blade traps 1 level up the zeds head and another on the floor level and you're done, Thou shall not pass!!

[FileMachete]

Been trying to figure out the answer my own question above, but can't reach a high level of certainty.

 

I _think_ this is the first bit;

 

All players hit for twice the damage with head shots, whenever they land one. So a default, across the board, 200% damage 'bonus' for head shots.

 

Additionally, I think, (and meganoth just wrote confirming) that "sneak" shots add a 200% bonus damage to hits anywhere on an unsuspecting zombie (they can't be aggrod/targeting a player) while the player is also crouched. But this only applies to the first hit.

 

Big question on this is does the 'sneak-shot' bonus get stacked with the general 'head-shot' bonus for that first head shot?

(using Perception L5 + Dead Eye L3 head-shots are either 240% or 270%; does sneak add another 200% for 440% or 470%?)

 

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Headshot damage is added to every headshot with the fitting weapon.

 

Sneak damage is only added on the first shot since after that you are not hidden anymore. But the damage increase is applied to any sneak damage not only to headshots

 

 

 

Ok, thanks for this @meganoth, I was grinding to the same conclusions for those two bits.

 

Bits I'm uncertain of are these;

 

1) Does the 'Tree' bonus, 'Percetion L5' = "Deal 240% head shot damage" actually only result in head shots hitting for 240% of base damage?

   --- can't really imagine the tree bonus being additive w base head shot bonus or = 440% : this being seperate than if sneak shot 200% is additive ---

 

2) Does a perk like 'Dead Eye's additional, general bonus, "Deal 30% more damage" (at DE L3) stack on top of head shot bonuses?

   --- again I'm leaning towards it not being additive, but that's just my guess ---

 

On a seperate tangent I'm thinking that maybe the 'speccd into' parts for Aiming & Reloading times might be more subjectively impactful than the simple numbers may suggest. By that I'm imagining getting into a 'oh he77' moment with several zeds. While the damage buff from speccing might mean it's only taking 3 rounds instead of 4 to drop a zed, that horrible period of reloading whilst getting pounded on is hard to forget, so maybe we tend to notice even fairly small improvements to that one bit leave a mark?

 

No idea really, just pondering my own 'belief' that using non-specced weapons early on isn't the best idea. Yet I'll qualify that by saying I do look at the stats & let those guide my choice, along with available ammo of course. (I was using a non-specced AK early on in current playthrough as it not only did more per round damage than the 'speccd' Pistol I'd looted, I had similar amounts of ammo for each and the AK both out ranged the pistol and had over twice the mag capacity.)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, FileMachete said:

Been trying to figure out the answer my own question above, but can't reach a high level of certainty.

 

I _think_ this is the first bit;

 

All players hit for twice the damage with head shots, whenever they land one. So a default, across the board, 200% damage 'bonus' for head shots.

 

Additionally, I think, (and meganoth just wrote confirming) that "sneak" shots add a 200% bonus damage to hits anywhere on an unsuspecting zombie (they can't be aggrod/targeting a player) while the player is also crouched. But this only applies to the first hit.

 

Big question on this is does the 'sneak-shot' bonus get stacked with the general 'head-shot' bonus for that first head shot?

(using Perception L5 + Dead Eye L3 head-shots are either 240% or 270%; does sneak add another 200% for 440% or 470%?)

 

Ok, thanks for this @meganoth, I was grinding to the same conclusions for those two bits.

 

Bits I'm uncertain of are these;

 

1) Does the 'Tree' bonus, 'Percetion L5' = "Deal 240% head shot damage" actually only result in head shots hitting for 240% of base damage?

   --- can't really imagine the tree bonus being additive w base head shot bonus or = 440% : this being seperate than if sneak shot 200% is additive ---

 

2) Does a perk like 'Dead Eye's additional, general bonus, "Deal 30% more damage" (at DE L3) stack on top of head shot bonuses?

   --- again I'm leaning towards it not being additive, but that's just my guess ---

 

On a seperate tangent I'm thinking that maybe the 'speccd into' parts for Aiming & Reloading times might be more subjectively impactful than the simple numbers may suggest. By that I'm imagining getting into a 'oh he77' moment with several zeds. While the damage buff from speccing might mean it's only taking 3 rounds instead of 4 to drop a zed, that horrible period of reloading whilst getting pounded on is hard to forget, so maybe we tend to notice even fairly small improvements to that one bit leave a mark?

 

No idea really, just pondering my own 'belief' that using non-specced weapons early on isn't the best idea. Yet I'll qualify that by saying I do look at the stats & let those guide my choice, along with available ammo of course. (I was using a non-specced AK early on in current playthrough as it not only did more per round damage than the 'speccd' Pistol I'd looted, I had similar amounts of ammo for each and the AK both out ranged the pistol and had over twice the mag capacity.)

 

First of all all percentages are calculated from base damage (and I'm 200% headshot bonus sure of that 😉). So there is no amplification of damage from different sources.

 

Secondly the 200% headshot bonus is (90% sure) INSTEAD of the 100% normal damage. So basically headshot damage is just doubled, not trippled at start. And when you have Perception level 6 it means 250% damage aka two and a half the normal base damage.

 

Dead eye's "Deal 30% more damage" go on top of this, so the 250% of base damage are now 280% of base damage. The same goes for sneak damage, notice the "extra" in the description.

 

 

[Tahaan]

5 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Generic weapon buffs ok, but i don't like STR "forces" you to use shotguns for example. We litteraly do roles, i'm usually the cook with master chef, but i don't like to play shotguns. So why the heck does this role "force" me to use shotguns? As i'm the cook, i'd mostly also do living of the land. That those two are in different skill trees is also anoying. The huntsman is also in fortitude what prefers automatic weapons. Who the heck hunts animals with an AK? And animal tracker than is in perception tree.... WTF.

I'd be fine with STR increases melee damage for all melee weapons. A firearm does not do more damage, just because you are strong... but maybe it reduces the recoil? Fortitude could increase critical hit chance, perception increase accuracy. I'd say agility might increase stamina use while a weapon is drawn, but there is no such mechanic in 7d2d. Maybe increase reload speed. INT may increase durability of weapons. But all of them do it for EVERY weapon.

 

Yes this is what I mean.  I don't think that STR forces you to do only those weapons but it makes it easier to put the points into them, making the other weopons much less fun to play.

 

Good idea with Str and Int affecting recoil and wear.  Wear could be a big thing.  Imagine if you pick up a level 5 gun but you cant repair it because you can only make and therefore only repair up to say level 3.

 

My favourite weapons are the Bat - Str and the Machine gun - Fortitude.  But I also like the shotgun or the magnum for variation.   Since these are all spread out over the skill tree and I "want" to put points into them all, it is painful being forced to first improve those skills.

 

Sure you can use them without leveling up in the perks but that is just less fun later on in the game.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

16 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

Sure you can use them without leveling up in the perks but that is just less fun later on in the game.

The point is, if you do not put points into weapon skills, you put them into some other skills. It's exactly THAT decission WHERE to put them. If you put them into crafting, YOU obsiously think, the skill for crafting is more important then weapon damage. THAT is what makes the game! You can't have everything especially not early or even immediately.

And if you do multiplayer and decide for that roles, it's the way YOU want to go. If you can't deal with that in multiplayer, can you even imagine how someone plays this game in SINGLEPLAYER? I don't play SP for exactly that reason, but there are hundrets of people out there who do. And obviously they come along with that.
If the INT-Player is annoyed of being the INT-Player, play without someone specing into just INT. Try it and look where you end up. I don't know where it will end up FOR YOU, maybe it turns out to be more fun for you, or it maybe even turn out almist devastating for you.

 

The game does not (entirely) force you to play that way! It's YOUR DECISION to play that way. And your decision obviously is min-maxing. Maybe not overal, but in that point it is, because you're activeley refusing to use 80% just because there is a way to do 120%, but 120% is not the way you want to do. Instead you complain that you don't want to use 80% just because you can't get 120% the way you want to do.

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

Yes this is what I mean.  I don't think that STR forces you to do only those weapons but it makes it easier to put the points into them, making the other weopons much less fun to play.

 

Good idea with Str and Int affecting recoil and wear.  Wear could be a big thing.  Imagine if you pick up a level 5 gun but you cant repair it because you can only make and therefore only repair up to say level 3.

 

My favourite weapons are the Bat - Str and the Machine gun - Fortitude.  But I also like the shotgun or the magnum for variation.   Since these are all spread out over the skill tree and I "want" to put points into them all, it is painful being forced to first improve those skills.

 

Sure you can use them without leveling up in the perks but that is just less fun later on in the game.

 

It isn't much of a surprise that bat and M60 are your favourite weapons. They are (in A18) easily the best weapons you can get for melee and ranged. So it seems only fair to  pay more points if you want them both.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

26 minutes ago, meganoth said:

It isn't much of a surprise that bat and M60 are your favourite weapons. They are (in A18) easily the best weapons you can get for melee and ranged. So it seems only fair to  pay more points if you want them both.

But if you want to go e.g. for agility because you like to sneak in pos, in the end even a pistol still does more damage than an M60 (maybe not in sense of DPS) but far less than a skilled M60, but you couldn't skill M60 because you liked agility. And just because the agility skill has way more effect on the damage then the weapon itself. And that's why you are more or less "forced" to use a pistol just because you decided to go for agility.

And that's what i dislike.

It should be possible to skill for automatic weapons and still skill agility. If you want to slow down agility, put a nerf on agility for automatic weapons. Then someone could skill agility and automatic weapons and he would be in relation still faster moveable with automatic weapons and agility skill then someone who skilled automatic weapons but not agility.

Specific weapons tied to base attributes is just crap. If you want to slow down heavy weapons, slow down the weapon itself, but don't embed this into the base skills.

It's just like armor. Heavy armor makes you slower. Indpendent of any skills. Heavy armor skills compensate this disadvantage. Just do it the same way with weapons.

[meganoth]

It looks almost like 7D2D was designed after AD&D. Let me explain:

 

The mage in AD&D sure doesn't like to be such a squishy character. What if he could use plate mail and broadsword and still rain fireballs on everyone else? The designers of AD&D say no. But the mage shouts: "But I want ...". NO!

 

AD&D players accept this even though they might want free choice from all the skills and perks. But wait, the designers of AD&D say "There is a way": You can dual-class. You can be battle-mage. But that will cost you some of your mage-power and that will cost you some of your fighter-power. You will not be as good a mage as a pure mage and you will not be as good a pure fighter.

 

Does this sound familiar? In 7D2D you can't choose stealth-M60 dual-class without either missing out on some power or having to collect more xp than others.

 

Because with just 16 more levels you have your M60 skilled and stealth skilled. Or you skill both at the same time. Lets see how dual-classing in 7D2d works:

 

To get Agi and Fort both to 7 you need 8+8= 16 points. That is exactly the same as getting one of them all the way to 10 (if we ignore eye-wear for the moment).

With Agi and Fort at 7 you can get all perks in both Agi and Fort (at least) to 4. So your gun damage is a bit more than 10% of base damage less, headshot damage is 40% base damage less, 15% less chance to decapitate on headshot, running in armor drains a little more stamina, your stealth bonus is 50% base damage less... BUT you can choose the best from both attributes aka classes aka roles.

 

10% base damage for a pistol is 4 damage per bullet by the way. And for an M60 just 6 damage. 

 

[SylenThunder]

  

15 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

I'm curious about this.  Don't you get enough points to max INT AND a weapon tree?  You just need to level up more.

 

Or am I missing something really dumb and going INT somehow requires 250+ perk points?

 

(Full disclosure, I have never made a pure build of anything.)

 

Decided to test the pure INT issue.

And it doesn't seem like an issue.

 

Leveled a character to 104. (Wanted 100, but overshot the exp a wee bit.)

Full INT and machine gunner, with some brawling too.

 

Could have been a little more judicial and leveled up a few other things too I suppose.

 

Seriously though, it would appear the only issue is when you choose to apply your points.

[FileMachete]

@SylenThunder, not sure if this bears on what you wrote above but I think I recall MM saying they'd adjusted things so that if you play long enough you'll have enough points to max out everything?

 

Personally my recent playthroughs don't tend to go past ~Lvl 80 or so? Too much same ole, same ole, heh.

So I'm trying out the Nitrogen map + Combo Pack player made POIs for some new sites to see.

 

To the Int bit.

Not sure I'm fully in line w tahann's original post, he's speaking specifically about MP, but there's maybe some crossover.

In SP I always spend quite a few points in Int, for crafting/stations, and I do find it a bit wearing & 'constricting'.

Sure I could choose to not put points into Int and just take what the RN gods decide to give me, but that's potentially really impactful.

What if they're really angry at you? No Forge, no Mixer & none working at Trader. Shovel all the Cement you want, ya ain't making Concrete w it

No Generator Bank, much less total lack of knowledge to make electrified Traps.

"Say hello to my little Horde!"

 

Now I'll fully agree that there's almost certainly some players who already pretty much play that way, by choice.

But for me one of the things I most enjoy about 7dtd is the building. Especially working on new horde night base designs.

So I'm catering to my own selfish desires and dropping quite a lot of early game points into Int.

Yet since I don't like the Baton, and I've gotten hosed a few times depending on Junk Turrets early-ish game, I've also been speccing into Agi for Pistol power. Which mostly came from earlier alphas where pistols & 9mm were always the most plentiful of looted guns/ammo. And that's on top of Str for mining perks; and even at current Lvl 68 I still haven't put a point into Clubs. Or any melee weapon. Totally au natural for melee. (think Braveheart, aka willy waving to enrage enemies)

 

My solution, and my shame (lol) is that I bump XP to 150%.

 

So, for me personally, I'd prefer if 'Weapons' & Armor were decoupled from Per/Str/Fort/Agi/Int. Though I like the general idea of those trees adding to various weapons/armor (to a minor degree, no 50%+ stuff) I'd like to choose Light or Heavy without factoring in all the other skills & perks under Str & Agi.

 

Anyway, likely a lot of this is moot w a19 around the corner

[Aldranon]

Given enough time, most players will try all play styles!  Min-maxing is only one of many paths.

This is why the "Wes" character exists in the "Don't Starve" game!

This is also why all games should have as many options as possible.

 

Living forever clears up everything!

With only three eternal choices for every situation:  Stop, change or continue. 

[Tahaan]

11 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Int is a very powerful tree on horde night.  Last 150+ GS we did, our INT player scored the most kills.  Specced dual junk turrets just shrreds.

 

And that's on top of all of the traps that he built and all the kills he got from whatever gun he was shooting....

But it is not fun.

 

For me, at least, the weapons in the Int tree are boring.  I like running-and-gunning.

 

Of course you can use weapons from other trees and after a while you have points in every tree in any case.  I guess the problem is temporary.  There is a mid-game-ish stage where the zeds are really hard (near impossible) to kill with an un-specced weapon, but you don't have enough points YET to spec that weapon, due to spending the points on other trees.  In this phase of the game, I use whatever I am able to, it is a phase where I switch weapons a lot.  

 

Later on after getting my AK or M60 better specced, I use that 99% during the horde.  I also spec into the Bat because it is fun - but mostly for small numbers of zeds at once.  So the net effect is my points are always spread over a number of trees and mid-game this makes things hard because none of my weapons are good enough.

 

On 6/12/2020 at 6:33 PM, FileMachete said:

Interesting to see the differences in what folks do perk wise. & the various definitions of min-maxing in dev thread were informative.

 

 

I don't feel that putting points into a weapon because you feel it is under-powered is min-maxing.  So about that definition a lot of people seem to call you a min-maxer just because you want to put some points into your favourite weapon, and I think that is terribly short-sighted.  If you are putting points into something to save on 5 minutes of mining or to try and get kills faster than they other guy in your party, or something like that, then that becomes min-maxing.  If you do it to have more fun then it is not.

 

Just my definition.

On 6/13/2020 at 7:48 AM, Deadalready said:

I can't remember who first said it but I remember a GDC speaker saying "players will optimise the fun out of games", meaning that once players find an effective solution they'll choose to do the simplest most efficient approach, even if it's something they hate (ie repetitively running the same building for hours, just because someone has mathed the odds that it has the best drops).

 

I DEFINITELY believe there are multiple perks that are top tier to the point of being necessary and others that are so subpar no one in their right mind would/should put points into them.

 

I read this and realise it is true but I am a bit stunned, how boring! Indeed "optimise the fun out of the game"! When it is no longer fun ... I can't imagine still playing.

 

 

[Laz Man]

11 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

But it is not fun.

 

For me, at least, the weapons in the Int tree are boring.  I like running-and-gunning.

 

Of course you can use weapons from other trees and after a while you have points in every tree in any case.  I guess the problem is temporary.  There is a mid-game-ish stage where the zeds are really hard (near impossible) to kill with an un-specced weapon, but you don't have enough points YET to spec that weapon, due to spending the points on other trees.  In this phase of the game, I use whatever I am able to, it is a phase where I switch weapons a lot.  

 

Later on after getting my AK or M60 better specced, I use that 99% during the horde.  I also spec into the Bat because it is fun - but mostly for small numbers of zeds at once.  So the net effect is my points are always spread over a number of trees and mid-game this makes things hard because none of my weapons are good enough.

 

 

I don't feel that putting points into a weapon because you feel it is under-powered is min-maxing.  So about that definition a lot of people seem to call you a min-maxer just because you want to put some points into your favourite weapon, and I think that is terribly short-sighted.  If you are putting points into something to save on 5 minutes of mining or to try and get kills faster than they other guy in your party, or something like that, then that becomes min-maxing.  If you do it to have more fun then it is not.

 

Just my definition.

 

I read this and realise it is true but I am a bit stunned, how boring! Indeed "optimise the fun out of the game"! When it is no longer fun ... I can't imagine still playing.

 

 

Easy to overcome mobility issues for Junk Heads.  When I play a Junk Turret build, I just place dual turrets at key areas to minimize having to pick them up and allows me to be mobile.  I also use 2 M60s on my hotbar and I absolutely wreck on horde night.  Racking up kills and XP with unperked M60s AND wrecking stuff with my traps and turrets.  Win Win.

[Liesel Weppen]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

The mage in AD&D sure doesn't like to be such a squishy character. What if he could use plate mail and broadsword and still rain fireballs on everyone else? The designers of AD&D say no. But the mage shouts: "But I want ...". NO!

 

AD&D players accept this even though they might want free choice from all the skills and perks. But wait, the designers of AD&D say "There is a way": You can dual-class. You can be battle-mage. But that will cost you some of your mage-power and that will cost you some of your fighter-power. You will not be as good a mage as a pure mage and you will not be as good a pure fighter.

I see a big difference between classes and perks. If you choose warrior you won't even get any skills for sorcery. If you choose mage there are no skills that improve the phyiscal damage of your weapon. And the archer might also use a sword, but he has no skill at all to improve sword damage. However those are classes you choose from the start. If 7d2d wants to do that then introduce classes. Additionally those classes are on ground levels of mechanics. It's meele, ranged, sorcery. In 7d2d it's not melee and ranged, it is each single weapon but always both one ranged and one melee tied together. You want to use AK for ranged, then you have to use fists in meele. You prefer blades as melee... you are almost forced to use pistols or bows for ranged. No real option to use blades and shotgun.

 

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

And this is still no middle age setting where "of course" a mage does sorcery, a warrior does melee and an archer does ranged.

 

Imho it's a very bad attempt to enforce some kind of "roles/classes" like that by a skill tree that somehow still provides everything. Imho either do classes with class specific skill trees OR do a free skilltree that allows you to spec into what you like, not what somebody thinks you should combine.

[Scyris]

"I usually feel pretty forced into high lvls of Int for stations, vehicle, traps & mainly Auger & Crucible."

 

This is my view on it, I mostly play solo, and the current skill system kinda screws solo players over with its current implementation, since we need to do everything ourselves. A19 might help if since they are reducing many if the non-weapon perks down to 3 ranks (from 5) and even combining some together, like we might see miner 69'er and motherload combined into 1 3 point perk, that only needs 5 str to max. IMO any non-weapon perk should only need 5 in a stat to max it. I never get int in my builds because early game I just cannot afford the points, I got weapon skills to get, miner 69'er/motherload, some healing factor and sneak/sneak attack bonus perks. The combat perks are mainly important as is block damage/harvest yeild as most of the time your going to be either mining, or killing things once your base is made.

 

I'm the opposite unlike most players I am patient, I let rng decide my fate, sometimes I get lucky and rngesus favors me and I have a chem lab by day 2. Other times I don't find one till day 14. I play dead is dead and this rngness on finding recipes keeps me playing because every game ends up differnt, I also never spec a single point into int, I just get adv engineering I for the forge and the forge craft speed. One time it took till day 20+ before I found a cruicble, though in most games I often have one before day 10, I play the trader game even without better barter perks, I can easly still make enough dukes to buy what I need.

 

I do however feel forced to have to get str, Miner 69'er/motherload are both just too good to pass up and shotguns has some of the best bang for the materials of all weapons. High spec in str/shotguns with the duckbill mod and you can insta kill 3 zombies with 1 shot, hell i've done it with a choke too just angling the shot well. I'd honestly like to see miner 69'er and motherloade combined into 1 perk, its silly to have it be 2, and would save some points.

 

I also feel forced to get some fort, as Machine guns are overall the best weapons in the game, and healing factor is extremly useful, and your going to need/want at least a point in living off the land to double crop yeilds.

 

Perception? All I really need from here is 1 in lockpicking so I can craft them, after that nothing else in there is worthwhile really. You could argue salvage ops, but if you do a lot of questing like I do, each time you activate a quest you get a fresh untouched poi with new wrenchables. I never double loot poi's thou, what I mean is I won't go into one loot it, then go back out and then start the quest to loot it again, as I personally feel thats cheesing the system, just like using placed junk turrets outside of horde night is.

 

Intel, as I said I get adv engineering in intel for the 1 point and thats it, Int has to many draw backs and other than better barter its not really worth investing in, especially when its weapons are crap, other than how OP/exploitable junk turret is due to being placeable.

 

Agility: the sneak attack perk and the one that lets you sneak better are great, rest of the agi perks though? mostly useless. Bows are nice early game but later on they just lack the dps to deal with higher hp zombies. Pistols low damage and clip size. Compound crossbow though with a bandolier mod is a beast, try it sometime thing hits like a truck. Reloads REAL quick too with bandolier+archery perks.

 

The biggest issue though is they need to make the stats do more, I should be able to spend a point in agility and get some improvement other than just headshot damage which ONLY effects weapons in its line. Str could up melee damage with ANY melee weapon, endurance, could give some passive health regen that stacks with healing factor, Agility, could up stamina regen a bit per point though this would work with endurance to OR increase movement speed by 2% per point for a 20% bonus at max, to help offset say heavy armor penalites. Perception could up loot quality a bit, or even give you a chance to get extra items from lootables since your get a feeling there is a hidden compartment in that drawer/cupboard,or up ranged damage a few % per point simmlar to str, Intel could, improve barter a bit per point. Etc or some other things.

 

Or, have cross-stat perks, like miner 69'er could be in Str, Endurance, and Perception, Maybe intel too and it'd fit in all. The stealth perks would fit in agi and perception, maybe intel as well.

[Scyris]

26 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I see a big difference between classes and perks. If you choose warrior you won't even get any skills for sorcery. If you choose mage there are no skills that improve the phyiscal damage of your weapon. And the archer might also use a sword, but he has no skill at all to improve sword damage. However those are classes you choose from the start. If 7d2d wants to do that then introduce classes. Additionally those classes are on ground levels of mechanics. It's meele, ranged, sorcery. In 7d2d it's not melee and ranged, it is each single weapon but always both one ranged and one melee tied together. You want to use AK for ranged, then you have to use fists in meele. You prefer blades as melee... you are almost forced to use pistols or bows for ranged. No real option to use blades and shotgun.

 

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

And this is still no middle age setting where "of course" a mage does sorcery, a warrior does melee and an archer does ranged.

 

Imho it's a very bad attempt to enforce some kind of "roles/classes" like that by a skill tree that somehow still provides everything. Imho either do classes with class specific skill trees OR do a free skilltree that allows you to spec into what you like, not what somebody thinks you should combine.

Darkness Falls handled this in a rather well thought out way, Each class has things and skills only they can craft/level. You can get every class in the end, however early and mid game, your starter class (or 2 classes in a single player game) can really influence your characters growth. You wanna make a vehicle above a bicycle/minibike? you need the mechanic class. You wanna craft things like first aid kits, drugs etc? you need the Physician class. Each class has a unique item you can only craft when that class is mastered, mastering a class requires the class quest line to be done, and you have to find a master book for your class, OR spend 10 skill points to learn the master skill which unlocks the unique recipes. Weapons/mining tools level with learn by doing with the skill level added bonuses like higher knockdown chance and such to the weapon, and then you have the perk itself that adds bonus damage and effects. For example someone with high archery has a good chance to knockdown or cripple a zombie with every shot making it actually viable at many points of the game. The stat system from a17-18 is completly trashed in the mod and replaced more with a a16 like system. Level gates come back, but they are much more lenient in general compared to the a16 ones.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I see a big difference between classes and perks. If you choose warrior you won't even get any skills for sorcery. If you choose mage there are no skills that improve the phyiscal damage of your weapon. And the archer might also use a sword, but he has no skill at all to improve sword damage. However those are classes you choose from the start. If 7d2d wants to do that then introduce classes. Additionally those classes are on ground levels of mechanics. It's meele, ranged, sorcery. In 7d2d it's not melee and ranged, it is each single weapon but always both one ranged and one melee tied together. You want to use AK for ranged, then you have to use fists in meele. You prefer blades as melee... you are almost forced to use pistols or bows for ranged. No real option to use blades and shotgun.

 

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

And this is still no middle age setting where "of course" a mage does sorcery, a warrior does melee and an archer does ranged.

 

Imho it's a very bad attempt to enforce some kind of "roles/classes" like that by a skill tree that somehow still provides everything. Imho either do classes with class specific skill trees OR do a free skilltree that allows you to spec into what you like, not what somebody thinks you should combine.

First of all I should have used the rogue-fighter as an example in my previous post. It would have been similar to the example you were using wanting M60 and stealth. And there AD&D the rogue gets the bonus damage from stealth only with knives and rapiers, not the sword or broadsword, even if he dual-classes. So this is similar but 7D2D allows you to have the stealth bonus with an M60 too, you just have to deal with the fact that the M60 is much louder.

 

Cross skilling is not far too expensive, I do it all the time in single player. In AD&D a single player would have a much slower progression as well and dual-classing might be the only choice to survive later levels. And the dungeon master would put much easier enemies against you than he would to a group with balanced classes. In 7D2D the slower gamestage progression fullfills the same function, I have much more time in single player to prepare.

 

You want marksman rifle and blades? Sure, do it. It can be a great combo because as long as you can get some range between you and the zombies the marksman gets the stealth bonus just like the pistol for much more absolute damage and other sleepers often won't wake up.  With slightly less point investment you have dual-classed agi and perception to level 4 in both skills. With the disadvantage of slightly less bonus in each perk but with the advantage of having both perk trees available. Your mining is bad? Doesn't matter, you are better at wrenching and looting, sell more and better stuff and buy cement from the trader a lot cheaper to offset the lower yield from mining (at least in theory, at the moment miner69 seems simply OP, a balancing problem).

 

I'm saying the predefined combo is not too powerful. That step from perk level 4 to 5 is noticable but with a few exceptions it doesn't matter greatly if you have perks at level 4 or 5.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Tahaan said:

....

 

I read this and realise it is true but I am a bit stunned, how boring! Indeed "optimise the fun out of the game"! When it is no longer fun ... I can't imagine still playing.

 

 

I don't think so. They play 7D2D as a team-based tactical shooter game. I can't really judge if that is fun in 7D2D for the long term because I don't play such squad based games (I can't even remember the name of a typical game of that genre), I'm not part of the target group. But for POI clearing even I can see the fun in being part of a well-oiled tactical group with everyone having a different task and training to have a blind understanding what everyone else is doing at the moment. 

 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

You want marksman rifle and blades? Sure, do it. It can be a great combo because as long as you can get some range between you and the zombies the marksman gets the stealth bonus just like the pistol for much more absolute damage and other sleepers often won't wake up.  With slightly less point investment you have dual-classed agi and perception to level 4 in both skills. With the disadvantage of slightly less bonus in each perk but with the advantage of having both perk trees available.

But why should marksman + blade have disadvantages over marksman + spear or blade + pistol?

Last two are both in the same tree and require only perception OR agility.

 

1) Marksman + Spear: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead eye + 5 SP javelin master = 26 SP

2) Pistol + Blades: 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for gunslinger + 5 SP deep cuts = 26 SP

 

3) Marksman + Blades: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead exe + 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for deep cuts = 42 SP (almost double!)

 

And i still don't have other skills from any of these trees. In case of 3 your spear and pistols are also increased because they are included in PER and AGI, so i HAVE to invest skillpoints for those even if i don't want to use them. Who decided that marksman is combined with spears and pistols are combined with blades? What "roles/classes" should this be? Is it common that a pistol guy uses blades in meele but not clubs or spears? Yeah maybe a "hunter" uses marksman and spears... but he also uses knifes, doesn't he?

 

 

Quote

Your mining is bad? Doesn't matter, you are better at wrenching and looting, sell more and better stuff and buy cement from the trader a lot cheaper to offset the lower yield from mining (at least in theory, at the moment miner69 seems simply OP, a balancing problem).

I'm not better in mining because i don't even put points into miner 69er and motherlode as these are in the strength tree which i haven't skilled at all. I also have no trader skills as the base attributes PER and AGI only buff weapons, they don't give anything else. I am also not yet better in looting and salvaging until i put ADDITONAL points into salvage operation and lucky looter. But why is a "hunter" better in salvaging or looting? I usually even stay with my role of a "hunter" and are that one that provides food for the group. Maybe call it the "support" role. I need living of the land, huntsman and master chef (this can at least be gained by skillbooks), which are again in two different trees... i have none of. At least animal tracker is already under perception.

 

What you call "i'm already better in other things" is exactly what my problem is. Yes, i'm better or lets say i can become better with few skillpoints in some skills. But that are not necessarily the skills i want. But because i can get them with less effort, i'm "forced" to take them. I can't play like i want to play, i have to play like the perk system "forces" me to.

At least my weapon choice would not be that way predefined if the base perks didn't buff SPECIFIC weapons.

 

That is exactly what i meant: Either you want roles/classes, then introduce roles but also put the according skills into it. Or you do not want roles/classes, then don't gate the perks that way. As some other comment mentioned above: This is done way better in some mods. I haven't played darkness falls yet, but it is similar in war of the walkers... much better! Even WITH real classes.

 

Quote

I'm saying the predefined combo is not too powerful. That step from perk level 4 to 5 is noticable but with a few exceptions it doesn't matter greatly if you have perks at level 4 or 5.

Why do you compare pistol + blades lvl5 with marksman + blades only lvl4?

Both are just one ranged and one melee weapon. Why should i have the one combo on 5 but the otherone only on 4?

 

37 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I don't think so. They play 7D2D as a team-based tactical shooter game.

Huh? Do you mean my post? Hell no! I even dislike the shooter part of the game, i'm the survival guy. There is nothing tactical. But i still prefer some kind of weapons because i like their handling and playstyle, not their combat-tactical use. If we are playing in larger groups, i usually don't even attend the looting (therefore lucky looter on my char is basically almost worthless).

We have others in our group that play more or less only for going berserk through bloodmoons, but they also do not play what they prefer, they min-max like the skill tree says them to do. Most of them of course go for the M60... guess what melee weapon they fight? Hint: almost all of them think that fists are the worst melee weapon at all. But all of them use them. (at least as long as they have maxed out the M60 and have some skill points left to start another tree with a preferred melee weapon, if they even play that far).

 

If you want to avoid somebody makes an AGI build while using a M60, put a movement nerf on the gun itself. I mean it's obvious that a guy carrying a heavy machine gun moves slower than a guy just carrying a hunting knive. Maybe 10% slower if active, still 5% slower if on toolbelt. Now someone could decide if he wants to go AGI + pistols for moving ultra fast or maybe still use a M60 and skill AGI to compensate the movement nerf.

There are so many possibilites, but why do you make base attributes buff specific weapons and even tie specific weapons together? With that system i wouldn't even call PER, STR, FOR, AGI, INT "base" attributes, but they are weapon skills. The whole skilltree is built up on WEAPON skills!

[meganoth]

38 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

But why should marksman + blade have disadvantages over marksman + spear or blade + pistol?

Last two are both in the same tree and require only perception OR agility.

 

1) Marksman + Spear: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead eye + 5 SP javelin master = 26 SP

2) Pistol + Blades: 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for gunslinger + 5 SP deep cuts = 26 SP

 

3) Marksman + Blades: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead exe + 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for deep cuts = 42 SP (almost double!)

 

And i still don't have other skills from any of these trees. In case of 3 your spear and pistols are also increased because they are included in PER and AGI, so i HAVE to invest skillpoints for those even if i don't want to use them. Who decided that marksman is combined with spears and pistols are combined with blades? What "roles/classes" should this be? Is it common that a pistol guy uses blades in meele but not clubs or spears? Yeah maybe a "hunter" uses marksman and spears... but he also uses knifes, doesn't he?

 

 

I'm not better in mining because i don't even put points into miner 69er and motherlode as these are in the strength tree which i haven't skilled at all. I also have no trader skills as the base attributes PER and AGI only buff weapons, they don't give anything else. I am also not yet better in looting and salvaging until i put ADDITONAL points into salvage operation and lucky looter. But why is a "hunter" better in salvaging or looting? I usually even stay with my role of a "hunter" and are that one that provides food for the group. Maybe call it the "support" role. I need living of the land, huntsman and master chef (this can at least be gained by skillbooks), which are again in two different trees... i have none of. At least animal tracker is already under perception.

 

What you call "i'm already better in other things" is exactly what my problem is. Yes, i'm better or lets say i can become better with few skillpoints in some skills. But that are not necessarily the skills i want. But because i can get them with less effort, i'm "forced" to take them. I can't play like i want to play, i have to play like the perk system "forces" me to.

At least my weapon choice would not be that way predefined if the base perks didn't buff SPECIFIC weapons.

 

That is exactly what i meant: Either you want roles/classes, then introduce roles but also put the according skills into it. Or you do not want roles/classes, then don't gate the perks that way. As some other comment mentioned above: This is done way better in some mods. I haven't played darkness falls yet, but it is similar in war of the walkers... much better! Even WITH real classes.

 

Why do you compare pistol + blades lvl5 with marksman + blades only lvl4?

Both are just one ranged and one melee weapon. Why should i have the one combo on 5 but the otherone only on 4?

 

Huh? Do you mean my post? Hell no! I even dislike the shooter part of the game, i'm the survival guy. There is nothing tactical. But i still prefer some kind of weapons because i like their handling and playstyle, not their combat-tactical use. If we are playing in larger groups, i usually don't even attend the looting (therefore lucky looter on my char is basically almost worthless).

We have others in our group that play more or less only for going berserk through bloodmoons, but they also do not play what they prefer, they min-max like the skill tree says them to do. Most of them of course go for the M60... guess what melee weapon they fight? Hint: almost all of them think that fists are the worst melee weapon at all. But all of them use them. (at least as long as they have maxed out the M60 and have some skill points left to start another tree with a preferred melee weapon, if they even play that far).

 

If you want to avoid somebody makes an AGI build while using a M60, put a movement nerf on the gun itself. I mean it's obvious that a guy carrying a heavy machine gun moves slower than a guy just carrying a hunting knive. Maybe 10% slower if active, still 5% slower if on toolbelt. Now someone could decide if he wants to go AGI + pistols for moving ultra fast or maybe still use a M60 and skill AGI to compensate the movement nerf.

There are so many possibilites, but why do you make base attributes buff specific weapons and even tie specific weapons together? With that system i wouldn't even call PER, STR, FOR, AGI, INT "base" attributes, but they are weapon skills. The whole skilltree is built up on WEAPON skills!

 

My second posting was in reply to a post by Tahaan. Look up his post if you want to know what we were talking about. You can easily find such a post by following the links who look like arrows on the right side of the quoted section.

 

Your M60 movement nerf isn't a bad idea. There are still 34(?) other perks to balance so someone mixing and matching won't just speedrun through the game with the optimal combination. And most people would just play the same ~8 perks every time. In A18 it was the first time I set up the plan to spec every attribute at least once in the next 5 playthroughs. Previously there was no incentive at all to deviate. Either go for what you like best or as minmaxer take the best combination of perks.

 

But the general idea of this current perk system is (presumably) to provide some predefined roles so people think about changing their play style from time to time and make balancing somewhat manageable by the team. It isn't optimal and some of the roles have a bit random bits in them. But for example the huntsman role you talk about does not exist in the game because the huntsman mini-game in 7D2D is of minimal importance, you can hardly make a complete role out of it.

 

If you like the system in some mods better, good for you. Play them. I tried some of them and especially the ones just mimicking old alphas are not my cup of tea, but they are there for players wanting something else. Or just mod Blades to be in perception and play that till the end of time (a crude mod to do this is probably done in a few minutes)

 

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

 

3 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

1) Marksman + Spear: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead eye + 5 SP javelin master = 26 SP

2) Pistol + Blades: 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for gunslinger + 5 SP deep cuts = 26 SP

 

3) Marksman + Blades: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead exe + 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for deep cuts = 42 SP (almost double!)

 

3 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

There are so many possibilites, but why do you make base attributes buff specific weapons and even tie specific weapons together? With that system i wouldn't even call PER, STR, FOR, AGI, INT "base" attributes, but they are weapon skills. The whole skilltree is built up on WEAPON skills!

 

I like the current perk system but these are excellent points and good criticisms of the system that I can't deny. I do disagree with you on asking for pre-defined classes because I like that you can build your own class by the combination of perks you can choose. I do acknowledge that the number of combinations is more limited than it would be if governing attributes were not so tied to specific weapons.

 

I do think that if ultimate freedom were given so that it was just as cheap to combine any favored melee weapon with any favored ranged weapon that most of the weapons would be ignored as players gravitated to the ultimate couple they prefered. There is some fun in picking an attribute and focusing on the weapons within that attribute for one playthrough and then picking a different attribute and focusing on the weapons for that one. However, there would be nothing stopping us from doing that either if the weapons were unlinked from the attributes. Only the min-maxers would lock themselves into the same two weapons every time and then complain that the game has no variety....

 

@meganoth what mods did you try to alter the perk system? Was there one that decoupled the weapons from the attributes?

[Liesel Weppen]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

If you like the system in some mods better, good for you. Play them. I tried some of them and especially the ones just mimicking old alphas are not my cup of tea, but they are there for players wanting something else. Or just mod Blades to be in perception and play that till the end of time (a crude mod to do this is probably done in a few minutes)

Wtih this discussion i already thought if i should take a look into the xmls and try to mod it myself. Maybe i take a look at the A19 system and if it is still what i dislike in A18, probably i try to mod A19 then.

The other mods like war of the walkers are total conversions but i do also like playing vanilla, so basically a skill-system only mod would be in my interest.

 

Anyway of course it can be modded, but imho this should be changed in vanilla.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

However, there would be nothing stopping us from doing that either if the weapons were unlinked from the attributes. Only the min-maxers would lock themselves into the same two weapons every time and then complain that the game has no variety....

Imho it is not the task of the game to "force" players trying different ways. As you say, one would never try, anotherone will even try if the system disadvantages him when doing this.

I tried a lot from A15 on. I tried different weapons before A18, where this was not "forced". I did not only try different weapon builds, but also completely different playstyles with cheese bases, underground base, over-hill-base, living in all different biomes, even playthroughs with no-building or never-us-a-base-for-bloodmoon-twice. The game didn't encourage me to do this, but i did. Other players prefer to play a 100s of playthroughs with always the same style. If they want that, let them do this.

 

I also tried different builds in A18, because of the skillsystem, but in later games i always ended up skilling multiple trees with the same char, as i didn't like the system-defined "roles" and preferred to combine weapons and tasks like i prefer them, even if that costed me way more skillpoints. But it still anoyed me with this system, because it took much longer to reach the build like i want it. Either i crossskilled from the beginning and it takes ages until you can do what you want to do in a good/efficient way or you skilled one task after another and ended up with long times where you could do some task almost not at all.

[FileMachete]

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

I do think that if ultimate freedom were given so that it was just as cheap to combine any favored melee weapon with any favored ranged weapon that most of the weapons would be ignored as players gravitated to the ultimate couple they prefered.

I don't disagree. But it makes me wish there was more 'depth' to the various weapons+skills. Not to ultimately make them all the same, that'd be silly. But maybe do a focused pass on highlighting the various negatives to help differenciate them more.

 

While I get it, no real encumberance/mass limits, for examples sake consider if there were;

 

Which would be better then, SMG, AK or M60?

Now the situation plays a significant role.

Static location, lots of zeds? M60.

Semi-static, or roving base defense, likely the AK.

Running all over, clearing unfamiliar POIs? SMG. (for x pounds there's about double the number of 9mm rounds vs 7.62)

 

I think it'd be great if it were possible to leverage some thing or mechanic to get players to naturally consider what they're going to do, and have reasons & trade-offs to choose various, and different, load outs before heading out to do X Y or Z.

[diegodgo87]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't think so. They play 7D2D as a team-based tactical shooter game. I can't really judge if that is fun in 7D2D for the long term because I don't play such squad based games (I can't even remember the name of a typical game of that genre), I'm not part of the target group. But for POI clearing even I can see the fun in being part of a well-oiled tactical group with everyone having a different task and training to have a blind understanding what everyone else is doing at the moment. 

 

 

Yeah, that how my team plays the game, pure tactical and we love it.

[Darthjake]

On 6/18/2020 at 2:50 PM, meganoth said:

Headshot damage is added to every headshot with the fitting weapon.

 

Sneak damage is only added on the first shot since after that you are not hidden anymore. But the damage increase is applied to any sneak damage not only to headshots

 

 

 

If you are playing multi, stand up, and then stealth again, the Z should aggro on the other player who is still standing up.  I've gotten multiple stealth hits/kills this way.