RWG Just When you think it can't get any worse

[Ranzera]

Overdrive? We are in the phase of development where the cement is drying.

 

A17 is the first alpha of 7D2D's history where practically all internal systems are in a somewhat final state and no placeholders anymore (a result also of their desire to finish the game). There will be no big changes anymore and bug fixing and polishing will take a bigger and bigger part of their development time.

 

For all of EA modders have been trying to paint grafiti on a moving train, beta is the train braking and 1.0 will mean the train has stopped.

 

"I don't like your description so I'm going to using a metaphor to say the same thing"

 

Cool story bro.

[Bhaaltazar]

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but IMHO this describes in a nutshell the problem this game currently has.

 

If the CEO changes core elements of the game to something “what he felt was best” isn’t the way how product development should happen.

 

No wonder we have those 180 degrees turns (sometimes 360 degrees) and all those other “personal preferences”.

 

Sorry, if this sounds negative. But 7D2D has been (!) an awesome game. I always called it “bob the builder for adults with zombies”. I got hooked by Grand Spartan on YouTube and sunk many - probably too many - hours into it as it offered a mix of horror, shooter elements, free play style and creativity.

 

Now it’s a generic character development game. A lot of unique aspects have been nerfed and it has gotten pretty linear. Farm XP, drop points into X, rinse and repeat.

 

Base building has become a “let’s trick the (so called) AI” game.

 

I could probably go on for a while but I won’t as it doesn’t lead to anything.

 

And I know that 7D2D is Alpha™️ and experimental™️ but I have the impression that TFP have lost their “inner compass”. Which then leads to the above quoted post in this thread “what he felt was best”.

 

Yes exactly, I don't know whos opinions matters so much, but game at the current state game isn't liked by most old players who actually supported the early project. If these opinions would matter TFP wouldn't be so stubborn with this direction.

 

For me optimal gameplay would be A16 + new additions of A17 ( A16 leveling system tweaked abit, old RWG much better than these new 8k island maps, long grind, etc ... ). If games continues going in this direction I don't think I will stick around much longer after 3000+ hours - had my fun but ARK is far what I like about survival and building game..

 

All A16 needed was some upgrades and additions to end game play. The balance in A16 was faaaaaaar superb to what we have now. A17 brought some sugars, but took away 75% of fun A16 had before this. All devs had to do was look at what mods are most popular around servers and players... that was the best reflection of what this game needed.

Now just being stubborn trying to satisfy ARK players ( if I wanted to play ARK I would reinstall it ) and going 180 U turn at the end of the game development??... you never make this kind of changes when the the project is like 80% done and well accepted by customers. The changes so far, for me at least, are just going from bad to worse.

 

Next build will bring in some mutated dinosaurs instead of zombies perhaps? YAY

[OldManBrian]

It might be possible to bring back 16.4 with a mod suite. The only problem there is that it seems that the dev team wants to shift into overdrive and rush the game to 1.0 (by the end of the year?). It'll make the game a somewhat fast moving target in that case. I'm not sure how much of the UI can be brought back and some of the systems might be completely gone (combining). I'm not sure how robust the mods can be.

 

I've already done a ton of modding with a17 to get it like a16, but I ultimately gave up for two main reasons that aren't moddable:

 

• Limited RWG Map Size
  .
  
• Zombie AI
  

Those are outright dealbreakers for us and can't be modded to match a16 in pretty much any way at the moment.

 

 

 

There's also a few other things that look difficult / impossible to bring back or change at the moment:

 

• Gun Parts
  .
  
• Skill Increase By Doing (a16 skill from usage structure)
  .
  
• Removing the XP notification in a17
  

 

Other than that, pretty much everything can be modded back in. (Balance, schematics, perks, etc.)

 

 

But because of those unmoddable items I gave up and went back to a16 for now. Plus as you've said, based on the feedback on a17 so far I think there's a high chance of them dramatically changing a lot of these systems in the future so I'd rather wait until the dust settles before I spend that much time modding everything back.

 

Not to mention, like Roland said, we might end up loving the changes they make for a18 based on this feedback. So we'll wait and see for the moment.

[meganoth]

"I don't like your description so I'm going to using a metaphor to say the same thing"

 

Cool story bro.

 

Are you sure? I'm saying now is a better time for modders than any time before. I understood you saying that now is a bad time for modders because so much is changing now and interfaces are instable. Have I misunderstood you?

[Roland]

Plus, wouldn't TFP shifting into overdrive simply equal normal development speed...?

[Ranzera]

Plus, wouldn't TFP shifting into overdrive simply equal normal development speed...?

 

I dunno. That sounds like an attitude that won't release this year. Game still isn't feature complete and needs to iron out the grand majority of the bugs and you've still got a little more than 10.5 months left of 2019. If some serious pace quickening doesn't occur, it's just not happening. Let's not forget you guys have a track record of underestimating work load.

[Ranzera]

I've already done a ton of modding with a17 to get it like a16, but I ultimately gave up for two main reasons that aren't moddable:

 

• Limited RWG Map Size
  .
  
• Zombie AI
  

Those are outright dealbreakers for us and can't be modded to match a16 in pretty much any way at the moment.

 

 

 

There's also a few other things that look difficult / impossible to bring back or change at the moment:

 

• Gun Parts
  .
  
• Skill Increase By Doing (a16 skill from usage structure)
  .
  
• Removing the XP notification in a17
  

 

Other than that, pretty much everything can be modded back in. (Balance, schematics, perks, etc.)

 

 

But because of those unmoddable items I gave up and went back to a16 for now. Plus as you've said, based on the feedback on a17 so far I think there's a high chance of them dramatically changing a lot of these systems in the future so I'd rather wait until the dust settles before I spend that much time modding everything back.

 

Not to mention, like Roland said, we might end up loving the changes they make for a18 based on this feedback. So we'll wait and see for the moment.

 

I'll pass judgement on whatever ends up being the final iteration of RWG. I don't want A16 zombie ai to return, though I think the current ai is very nearly as bad. I'll wait to see what ends up happening going forward.

 

LBD has a mod in its early stages right now. It seems promising. The exp indicator isn't a problem. A16 had character levels too. Gun Parts are a loss, but it might be possible to work in something like them by giving mods quality and requiring a full set of mods to fire a gun.

 

It would be nice if a bug fixed patch of 16.4 was put out. Then they could trash their game all they want. But I doubt that'd happen.

[Scyris]

16k maps are the only viable ones, the rest are far too small once you get a vehicle and feel claustrophobic. Still far too much wasteland and repeated pois (that appear to self destruct the second you get on the roof!).

Water needs some balance, either too much or close to none. Some poi need rethought (sneak in secret exit of wworks for example and get loot without the hassle of going right through is far too easy).

Caves, mines need massive expansion to compensate for nerfed mining. Only seem to be 3-4 spawn points on a map now too. deathwish is decent with some big poi, not perfect but worth a run through.

 

Most of the dungeon style poi's you can bypass them if you know where the loot is. I feel nerd polling to get the loot easy is cheating though so I rarely do it. Its not really in the garrisons pawn and loan since all you need is a single wood frame or parkour 3 I think, to jump up to where you need to go.

[khzmusik]

Most of the dungeon style poi's you can bypass

 

Not in RWG you can't, because those are the only POIs that you will encounter.

 

As I've said previously, there are good reasons for that, but it doesn't really matter if all you want to do is actually have a playable game. If that's what you're after, stick with A16.

[Roland]

Not in RWG you can't, because those are the only POIs that you will encounter.

 

So not true. Random is random I guess so maybe you’ve been grossly unlucky but I think perhaps you don’t realize that many old POIs have been updated with a facelift but not turned into dungeons. I can see many people with that false assumption looking at a house from outside and judging as a dungeon POI and moving on when in fact it is not.

 

If you’re saying that 17.2 maps in particular are bad for only spawning dungeon POIs then load 17.1 and pregenerate a few maps. Then reinstall 17.2 and play with those maps. In the A17.1 RWG maps I played there were plenty of non-dungeon POIs. Too many for my taste...

[RestInPieces]

So not true. Random is random I guess so maybe you’ve been grossly unlucky but I think perhaps you don’t realize that many old POIs have been updated with a facelift but not turned into dungeons. I can see many people with that false assumption looking at a house from outside and judging as a dungeon POI and moving on when in fact it is not.

 

If you’re saying that 17.2 maps in particular are bad for only spawning dungeon POIs then load 17.1 and pregenerate a few maps. Then reinstall 17.2 and play with those maps. In the A17.1 RWG maps I played there were plenty of non-dungeon POIs. Too many for my taste...

 

"Dungeon-POIs" sounds criminally artificial . Spawns and loot locations/containers have to be completely randomized. This is only sensible in a voxel random generated world where you meet the same POIs over and over. But I do love POI design in A17 - they have done a great job with them aesthetics-wise.

[JaxTeller718]

Yes exactly, I don't know whos opinions matters so much, but game at the current state game isn't liked by most old players who actually supported the early project. If these opinions would matter TFP wouldn't be so stubborn with this direction.

 

For me optimal gameplay would be A16 + new additions of A17 ( A16 leveling system tweaked abit, old RWG much better than these new 8k island maps, long grind, etc ... ). If games continues going in this direction I don't think I will stick around much longer after 3000+ hours - had my fun but ARK is far what I like about survival and building game..

 

All A16 needed was some upgrades and additions to end game play. The balance in A16 was faaaaaaar superb to what we have now. A17 brought some sugars, but took away 75% of fun A16 had before this. All devs had to do was look at what mods are most popular around servers and players... that was the best reflection of what this game needed.

Now just being stubborn trying to satisfy ARK players ( if I wanted to play ARK I would reinstall it ) and going 180 U turn at the end of the game development??... you never make this kind of changes when the the project is like 80% done and well accepted by customers. The changes so far, for me at least, are just going from bad to worse.

 

Next build will bring in some mutated dinosaurs instead of zombies perhaps? YAY

 

I may not agree with this Alpha but this is ridiculous. You sound like a bunch of Yes Men. Why bother to start your own company to accomplish your dream if not to make the games YOU want to make.

 

By your definition they may as well have never began TFP and gone to work for Blizzard. This game is not being made FOR individuals. It is their dream, and we so happen to like it. Yeah they can tweak to public reception but you're overestimating your value if you think that they NEED to make the game the way WE want it to be made.

 

Start your own business and then have other people tell you how to run it and see how you feel about it.

[stallionsden]

I may not agree with this Alpha but this is ridiculous. You sound like a bunch of Yes Men. Why bother to start your own company to accomplish your dream if not to make the games YOU want to make.

 

By your definition they may as well have never began TFP and gone to work for Blizzard. This game is not being made FOR individuals. It is their dream, and we so happen to like it. Yeah they can tweak to public reception but you're overestimating your value if you think that they NEED to make the game the way WE want it to be made.

 

Start your own business and then have other people tell you how to run it and see how you feel about it.

 

sheesh JAX I agree with both statements IDK which side of the fence to sit on lol. It is their game but one should not flaunt that imho as it gives people whom are generally giving their thoughts and ideas on the game a whirl and voicing their thoughts. But to have a dev say its my game is a kick in the bum or I PREFER yes they know its their game and they have ot their way but prolly shouldnt voice it on the forums i think personally.

 

they can just make the game they want and listen to the public (Their supporters) and still make the game they want without the bluntness so to speak.

 

WE all know they do listen tho as there are things in the game that people have suggested regardless if it was on the agenda either way that have made it into the game. Some ideas are stupid I have prolly suggested some lol myself i wont deny but regardless in the end it is just ones view and thoughts.

[OldManBrian]

As a developer I get both sides to this and I honestly think both are right.

 

You have to make "your vision" as a developer, but at the same time you can't ignore feedback because you're not actually a user so it can be hard to see the forest for the trees.

 

• Users usually don't know what they really want until they actually have it, so requests can be taken with a grain of salt unless it's something you agree with.
  .
  
• When users actually have something though, you can generally trust their feedback on it as they're reacting to something tangible. It doesn't mean you have to do exactly what they want, but you should definitely figure out *why* they feel that way and work that into your future plans in your own way.
  .
  
• If the feedback is overwhelming, sometimes you might have to question that *part* of your vision and backpedal. This happens in development from time to time, sometimes ideas just don't pan out.
   
  Even though I feel strongly about a16, I don't know that we're here yet as they are plenty of people who do like a17. It's also tough to find a solution that allows for both as they're total redesigns of core systems / gameplay, so I don't know what the answer is. Hate to be in Madmole's shoes on this one as it's a tough development challenge.
  

 

In the end, I'm trusting that Madmole is listening to everyone agonizing over the changes from a16 and working on adjustments in his own way that still preserves *his* vision of the game.

 

Looking forward to see how things play out with a18.

[RestInPieces]

.........

 

True, in general. Also, a correct way to get proper user feedback is not listening to the feedback. It's reading into the feedback.

[meganoth]

"Dungeon-POIs" sounds criminally artificial . Spawns and loot locations/containers have to be completely randomized. This is only sensible in a voxel random generated world where you meet the same POIs over and over. But I do love POI design in A17 - they have done a great job with them aesthetics-wise.

 

Yes, but ...

I think it would be a major effort to make loot locations really random now, but a sort of smaller fish would be if the poi designers would generate 2-3 versions of some pois with changed loot location and path to it. It would mean 90% copy and paste to get 50% of what we both want.

[Guppycur]

Y'all are all wrong, except for the ones that agree with me, depending on what I'm agreeing with at the time.

 

Right now, a17 is my favorite version to play modded, and my least favorite to play vanilla.

 

Rwg is super easy to mod.

[Royal Deluxe]

...

Right now, a17 is my favorite version to play modded,

+1

.....

[RestInPieces]

Yes, but ...

I think it would be a major effort to make loot locations really random now, but a sort of smaller fish would be if the poi designers would generate 2-3 versions of some pois with changed loot location and path to it. It would mean 90% copy and paste to get 50% of what we both want.

 

Why would it be a major effort to randomize the location of some containers? The payoff of the player not going straight/nerdpoling to specific areas/rooms and having to explore the POI for a less artificial experience, is pretty much worth some effort at least.

[OldManBrian]

Y'all are all wrong, except for the ones that agree with me, depending on what I'm agreeing with at the time.

 

Right now, a17 is my favorite version to play modded, and my least favorite to play vanilla.

 

Rwg is super easy to mod.

 

As a modder, a17 is a dream compared to a16 due to the xpath implementation. If they converted the localization.txt to xpath and added more options for AI and map generation on the fly it would be perfect and I wouldn't miss a16 cause I'd mod it into a17.

 

Even with mods though, I still have to prefer a16 by a long shot just due to the map generation size and non-telepathic AI. (And most gameplay is like 80% to my liking, as opposed to a17 which is like 20%, so there's much less modding for me to do.)

[Guppycur]

But those map sizes are easily replicated via modding.

[OldManBrian]

*Squinty Fry Futurama gif*

 

Is that really the case though? Last time I tried doing a 16x16km map my beefcake computer crashed. When I did a 12x12km it took hours and then clients took more than 10 minutes to connect and we had a ton of memory and disconnect problems. This was a17.1 both with and without the CompoPack mod to help generation issues. I gave up after that.

 

And that's just 12x12 or 16x16, a16 RWG was like 300x300km+

 

Is there a mod I'm unaware of that brings back infinite (generation on demand) maps, or at least allows for 100km+ maps?

[Guppycur]

Sure. The map will be whatever the file size you set the .raw file to. Trick right now is prefabs, but that's coming.

[Ranzera]

Sure. The map will be whatever the file size you set the .raw file to. Trick right now is prefabs, but that's coming.

 

Can they? My game always died trying to generate a 16k map. I liked the circle generation better, it felt slightly more organic than a square.

[Roland]

Can they? My game always died trying to generate a 16k map. I liked the circle generation better, it felt slightly more organic than a square.

 

I always feel the same way when eating at Wendy's...