RWG Just When you think it can't get any worse

[Guppycur]

Can they? My game always died trying to generate a 16k map. I liked the circle generation better, it felt slightly more organic than a square.

 

Gotta stop thinking about the old way to generate and embrace the dtm.

[Ranzera]

I always feel the same way when eating at Wendy's...

 

Don't let their twitter hear about that :X

[meganoth]

Why would it be a major effort to randomize the location of some containers? The payoff of the player not going straight/nerdpoling to specific areas/rooms and having to explore the POI for a less artificial experience, is pretty much worth some effort at least.

 

Containers could be randomized, but at the moment most pois are a single path from entrance to containers. There is no other location available if the developers don't want to violate their own design rules and don't want players going along the set paths to experience an empty "dead end". So I'm pretty sure the devs won't do this even though technically quite possible.

 

But in most pois it will be possible to get a different path with a different endpoint by just closing one connection between rooms and opening another one. An illustration of this in 2 dimensions:

 

 

A - B - C
       |
F - E - D
|
G - H - I

becomes

 

A - B - C
       |
F - E   D
|       |
G - H - I

 

with just two connections changed. Instead of end room I you have end room E

 

Doing this solution programmatically would be a huge effort, but just generating 2-4 static versions of the poi with changed paths would be a much smaller effort than building another complete poi.

[FA_Q2]

Containers could be randomized, but at the moment most pois are a single path from entrance to containers. There is no other location available if the developers don't want to violate their own design rules and don't want players going along the set paths to experience an empty "dead end". So I'm pretty sure the devs won't do this even though technically quite possible.

 

But in most pois it will be possible to get a different path with a different endpoint by just closing one connection between rooms and opening another one. An illustration of this in 2 dimensions:

 

 

A - B - C
       |
F - E - D
|
G - H - I

becomes

 

A - B - C
       |
F - E   D
|       |
G - H - I

 

with just two connections changed. Instead of end room I you have end room E

 

Doing this solution programmatically would be a huge effort, but just generating 2-4 static versions of the poi with changed paths would be a much smaller effort than building another complete poi.

 

+1

 

This would help a lot in exploration. Even 3 variations would force us to explore much more thoroughly. With basement and roof setups, that can change a POI drastically with much less effort.

[khzmusik]

So not true. Random is random I guess so maybe you’ve been grossly unlucky but I think perhaps you don’t realize that many old POIs have been updated with a facelift but not turned into dungeons.

 

Until I started doing the RWG version of min-maxing, and hunted down other peoples' seeds, I was not able to get a variety of POIs in any A17 RWG map.

 

The majority of duplicate POIs were quest POIs, though it took me a long time to put that together.

 

For example. If you're in a desert biome, in every city I've seen (any A17 version), 85% of the city is exactly the same POI. I'm not exaggerating; I counted once, and in a city of 35 POIs, 30 will be the same one.

 

And it is one that supports quests. (The one that is a trailer with a car out front, where you're supposed to enter through the roof.) Maybe that is just a coincidence.

 

Having said that, maybe the RWG from previous A17 versions were not this bad, and I just didn't give them enough of a go. But I don't think so.

 

Whenever a new A17 version drops, I usually try to generate one or two worlds, and if they're terrible, just go back to Navezgane.

 

I've always gone back to Navezgane.

 

I'm only focused on RWG right now because I'm getting tired of Navezgane, and I still want to enjoy playing the game.

 

I also keep an eye on the bug report section, and people have been complaining about this throughout all versions of A17. So I'm pretty sure it's not limited to A17.2. That also matches my limited experience.

[Gilthanaz]

It would be nice to have some additional sliders to configure map options for generation, e.g. City density, min. amount of traders, spawn_traders_also_in_cities (boolean), ... those are pretty basic and should not need to be modded in, IMHO.

 

So far from what I can see the E17.2 Maps look horrible in terms of gameplay and waste way too much space on water, tho I do welcome larger lakes and rivers.

[EvilestOverlord]

Alright Rolland here is my two cents.

 

First, sorry for all the hate, as someone with over 5500 hours both before and after steam early release, I have to say the game is coming along well. I remember 1.0 when you had to jump up hills and every zombie in a biome had player radar. In the mean time every release you run experiments and some just don't work out, I'll count A17 RWG as one of those.

 

Second, there are some features I both love and hate, but the ones I hate are kind of growing on me.

 

Third, I think RWG is actually the strongest part of this game. The idea that anyone can create a truly unique map and share it with just a seed name is AWESOME!!!

 

Now as for the current issues with RWG. I think we need a short list of the persistent problems with RWG.

 

1) Terrain makes little to no sense, I think this can be easily remedied with the proper algorithm. The programmers would know more about this than the players.

 

2) Mountains are by far the best terrain feature added in the recent releases, and I think they are wholly under utilized in the current RWG.

 

3) Roads, they have always been a mess. When they are found in cities or towns they get even worse.

 

4) Rivers and Lakes. Rivers are non existent and lakes are either way too big or are found in places they probably shouldn't be.

 

5) Cities and towns, they also do not seem natural, there is a repetition that needs ironed out.

 

6) Biomes I miss the plains and think the burnt and wasteland are way over used and used in a manor that just makes no sense.

 

If the FP can nail these issues down and make a system that works, you will make a game that lasts a lot longer than most.

 

Thank you for your efforts and tolerance of you player base,

 

Evilest Overlord

[quyxkh]

[RWG troubles]

From deeep in another thread last week:

RWG is getting some massive work done to it, I don't know how long it will take, but our lead artist is working directly with Robert so we'll have the most visually compelling RWG ever in the next version. We can use height maps with it to create mountains, desert bluffs and much more natural looking terrain. On top of that it speeds generation significantly. The frame work for this is done and Robert is working on road/towns so that they will adapt to any height map we give it. Its a top priority so it should make a 17.x patch.

[khzmusik]

For the record - I think we can all agree that RWG is moving in the right direction, and once complete, will be an order of magnitude better than A16 RWG. (Maybe minus the "island" layout but that's debatable.)

 

But for all A17 versions, RWG has been near-unplayably broken, and much worse that A16 RWG. I think we all agree on that too.

 

I personally am OK with that, now that I've hunted down a seed that actually generates a playable A17 RWG world. (Thanks again, Royal Deluxe.)

 

The only things I was not OK with were some things that Roland said (and I have not heard other members of TFP say). Like, that you can just go back to A17.1 (you can't), or that something released to the public as opt-in somehow makes it not a public release (ridiculous), or going all Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men ("You want A17 experimental? You can't handle A17 experimental!") on paying customers who complain about how broken it is.

 

But, that's just Roland being Roland I guess.

 

That will not diminish my love of the game or my respect for TFP generally, and I do not want to diminish anyone else's either.

 

That news from Madmole was very good news, and I can hardly wait to see what Robert is coming up with. I have every confidence that it will be great.

[Ranzera]

For the record - I think we can all agree that RWG is moving in the right direction, and once complete, will be an order of magnitude better than A16 RWG.

 

I'm not convinced that's true. This push to pre-generate (good) has been mixed with a push to make maps smaller (horrible) and it seems those two aims are linked. I'd rather have neither than both.

 

Then we get to the part where they remove biomes and it just gets pants on head, retarded. Plains did not need to be removed.

 

Like, that you can just go back to A17.1 (you can't).

 

Opting out of all beta programs gets you 17.1 currently. Roland did offer going back to 17.0 stable and I believe THAT is impossible currently.

[RestInPieces]

Containers could be randomized, but at the moment most pois are a single path from entrance to containers. There is no other location available if the developers don't want to violate their own design rules and don't want players going along the set paths to experience an empty "dead end". So I'm pretty sure the devs won't do this even though technically quite possible.

 

But in most pois it will be possible to get a different path with a different endpoint by just closing one connection between rooms and opening another one. An illustration of this in 2 dimensions:

 

 

A - B - C
       |
F - E - D
|
G - H - I

becomes

 

A - B - C
       |
F - E   D
|       |
G - H - I

 

with just two connections changed. Instead of end room I you have end room E

 

Doing this solution programmatically would be a huge effort, but just generating 2-4 static versions of the poi with changed paths would be a much smaller effort than building another complete poi.

 

What I would prefer is that they just go for the most "natural"/random approach - like the occasional empty dead end or random supplies near the entrance. No idea how they would achieve that in practice because it depends on a ton of things I don't know. What you describe is still a huge improvement though.

[Gareee]

As far as the random container location idea, its probably easier to just make alternate versions of pois and include them. From the outside they would look the same, but going through them would be different. Since there is no real cost or overhead involved, it really just a matter of manhours creating the alternate versions, and that wouldn't increase world generation time at all.

 

The alternate versions would just have to be added to the rwg mixer, and also added to the trader quest locations.

 

I'd LOVE to see edited pois be able to be added to the rwg list. Once we have that, adding them to the quest list is pretty much just xml editing.

[meganoth]

or that something released to the public as opt-in somehow makes it not a public release (ridiculous), or going all Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men ("You want A17 experimental? You can't handle A17 experimental!") on paying customers who complain about how broken it is.

 

Depends on what you mean with public release. The game has NOT been released as a finished product. And "unfinished" is a relatively flexible term, legally you bought something akin to a damaged product "as is". Read steam's info page for developers here: https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/earlyaccess . One interesting quote: "Note: If your product is no longer marked as Early Access, the expectation from customers will be that your product is stable and delivers a complete experience." . Meaning that an EA game does not need to be a stable and complete experience.

 

And I didn't even talk about the opt-in "experimental" yet! Or that even for finished software products liability is quite tenuous.

 

You have the right to complain about bugs and unfinished features. They have the right to decide when to fix them and talk to you in a voice sounding like Nicholson.

[Ringkeeper]

One interesting quote: "Note: If your product is no longer marked as Early Access, the expectation from customers will be that your product is stable and delivers a complete experience." . Meaning that an EA game does not need to be a stable and complete experience.

 

 

 

You have the right to complain about bugs and unfinished features. They have the right to decide when to fix them and talk to you in a voice sounding like Nicholson.

 

Good luck with that.... people don't understand what early access/alpha/beta/etc means. They want a product that they can perfectly play at any time as they like and don't understand, that it's in development, so constant change. There should be huge warning on any early access game (and even that won't help) like in any gambling/stock market advertise "you give your money into a hope and dream and might get nothing back for a long time or even never"

[Guppycur]

We already have random containers and random placement for those containers.

[Roland]

For the record - I think we can all agree...

 

Fantasy #1

 

The only things I was not OK with were some things that Roland said (and I have not heard other members of TFP say). Like, that you can just go back to A17.1 (you can't)

 

Fantasy #2

 

Alpha 17.2 is an experimental version you must knowingly opt into. You can go back to 17.1 simply by opting out. I have been playing A17.2 using a map I generated in 17.1 without any problems whatsoever. Works perfectly.

 

or that something released to the public as opt-in somehow makes it not a public release (ridiculous),

 

Fantasy #3

 

Maybe it makes you mad that I said that an experimental opt-in only version is not a public release but the only reason nobody else at TFP has said it is because they aren’t as willing as I am to post such self-evident obvious information as I am. It’s the math teacher in me.

 

or going all Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men ("You want A17 experimental? You can't handle A17 experimental!") on paying customers who complain about how broken it is.

 

Fantasy #4

 

I’m definitely Tom Cruise or maybe Demi Moore in this scenario. Jack Nicholson was living in a fantasy created by his own paradigm. Tom and Demi couldn’t get through to HIM but they did expose his fantasies for what they were to everyone else.

 

But, that's just Roland being Roland I guess.

 

Truth #1

 

I am always myself and speak my mind and tell the truth as I see it. In this case I am 100% correct and fully stand by what I’ve said

 

1) experimental is not a public branch.

2) you CAN opt out of 17.2 experimental and play the current public branch of 17.1

3) you can play a map generated in 17.1 with a new game started in 17.2

4) you can play a map generated in 17.0 with a new game started in 17.2

 

I tested all of this to verify it so that my fellow fans of the game can have all options for play available to them and if they feel the 17.2 island is the worst map type yet and would prefer to play using a map from 17.1 or even 17.0 they now know they can do that as an option because THAT is me being me.

[RestInPieces]

We already have random containers and random placement for those containers.

 

I always seem to find duffle bags/purses in cupboards and roofs, reinforced chests in attics, sealed tool/food boxes in factories at all the standard places, safes at standard locations (like normal small house, 1st floor, back room with wooden door on the left of the office), always the same containers in destroyed trader prefabs, to name a few. It's not like I tested it carefully and took notes for each prefab I visited, but if containers are indeed randomized, I couldn't tell that was the case from normal gameplay.

[Guppycur]

I always seem to find duffle bags/purses in cupboards and roofs, reinforced chests in attics, sealed tool/food boxes in factories at all the standard places, safes at standard locations (like normal small house, 1st floor, back room with wooden door on the left of the office), always the same containers in destroyed trader prefabs, to name a few. It's not like I tested it carefully and took notes for each prefab I visited, but if containers are indeed randomized, I couldn't tell that was the case from normal gameplay.

 

It'll depend on if they're "hard placed" or if the prefabber uses the random containers (which can be air).

[khzmusik]

I'm not convinced that's true. This push to pre-generate (good) has been mixed with a push to make maps smaller (horrible) and it seems those two aims are linked. I'd rather have neither than both.

 

Then we get to the part where they remove biomes and it just gets pants on head, retarded. Plains did not need to be removed.

 

Opting out of all beta programs gets you 17.1 currently. Roland did offer going back to 17.0 stable and I believe THAT is impossible currently.

 

I don't think the aim is to make maps smaller, that's a by-product of the development process. Madmole has said that getting RWG working at non-huge sizes is more important than getting a huge size map that's junk (and I completely agree). Once that happens I'm sure large maps will be back on the table.

 

As for the biomes - I guess I should have included that as a minus, since lots of people are complaining. But honestly, I don't miss them much. Plus once TFP actually get RWG reading rwgmixer.xml properly it shouldn't be difficult to mod them back in. (And do much more besides that from what I understand; the changes to modding/custom world generation are what will make it an improvement.)

 

Also, I meant that you can't go back to A17.1 and have mostly playable RWG. That was Roland's answer to the broken A17.2 RWG, and it ignores the fact that RWG has been broken in all A17 versions (to various degrees).

 

In my experience, the only difference between A17.1 RWG and A17.2 RWG is the water at the edges. The unusable roads, dearth of POI variety, lack of skyscrapers, etc. have always been there. At least when I tried it, anyway. Maybe I just couldn't handle it and didn't try hard enough.

[khzmusik]

I’m definitely Tom Cruise or maybe Demi Moore in this scenario.

Just for fun:

Angry 7D2D Forum User: Roland, did you order A17.2 to be released with broken RWG that wasn't even ready for internal QA testing?

 

Friendly 7D2D Forum User: You don't have to answer that question!

 

Roland: I'll answer the question!

 

[to A7D2DFU]

 

Roland: You want answers?

 

A7D2DFU: I think I'm entitled to.

 

Roland: You want answers?

 

A7D2DFU: I WANT A WORKING A17.2!

 

Roland: YOU CAN'T HANDLE A WORKING A17.2!

 

[pauses]

 

Roland: Son, we live in a world that has video games, and video games have to be guarded by game developers. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Jax?

 

I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for RWG and you curse A17. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that RWG's death, while tragic, probably saved A17. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, SAVES A17.

 

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on this game. You need me on this game. We use words like early access or experimental. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

 

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very game that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up A16 and shoot some zeds. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!

 

A7D2DFU: Did you order the broken RWG?

 

Roland: I did the job I...

 

A7D2DFU: [interupts him] DID YOU ORDER THE BROKEN RWG?

 

Roland: YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!

(As I said, just for fun.)

[Lanadon Conners]

I pray to the Game Gods and sacrifice a case of Red Bull and a bag of Dorritos, that the water on the edges of the Experimental maps will eventually lead to Port Cities, with warehouses, docks and Ship POIs..

[Roland]

Just for fun:

 

(As I said, just for fun.)

 

You should've found a foreign language version of that scene and created english subtitle translation like we do for the hitler vids. Don't lie now...you were a bit worried posting that seeing as you felt you need to tell me twice it was all in fun.

[meganoth]

You should've found a foreign language version of that scene and created english subtitle translation like we do for the hitler vids. Don't lie now...you were a bit worried posting that seeing as you felt you need to tell me twice it was all in fun.

 

But first we need a version with you speaking in a micky mouse voice and call it an experimental

[khzmusik]

You should've found a foreign language version of that scene and created english subtitle translation like we do for the hitler vids. Don't lie now...you were a bit worried posting that seeing as you felt you need to tell me twice it was all in fun.

 

Well, that would have taken video editing software, time, and a modicum of talent, and I have none of those.

 

And, yeah, I'm trying to be less prickly and more funny. I hope that's a step in the right direction.